Do Dead Men Groan?

Does Defense’s Own Expert Contradict Defendants’ Statements?

In the government’s Omnibus Motion In Limine regarding Certain Designated Defense Experts, they focus on the testimony of Dr. Farzad Najam, a cardiac surgeon at George Washington University.

Dr. Farzad Najam, for the Defense... or Government?

Dr. Najam will testify that the stab wound to Mr. Wone’s heart could have caused “immediate incapacitation,” and would have caused a significant amount internal bleeding instead of an enormous amount of external bleeding.  (The prosecution aims to disallow Dr. Najam’s testimony as ‘outside scientific consensus’ – this debate will feature prominently at the May 5th hearing.)

This is crucial testimony for the defense as it supports the defendants’ contention they did not tamper with the crime scene by cleaning up a significant amount of blood – evidence the prosecution contends would have been found at the scene of a violent crime.

While Dr. Najam’s testimony supports one part of the defendants’ case, it also takes away another crucial element for the defendants.

What that is…after the jump.

If allowed, Dr. Najam’s assertion raises serious questions about the defendants’ explanation for how they learned that Robert was fatally wounded.  Both Joe Price and Victor Zaborsky stated that they heard not just a scream, but a series of screams.

If – according to Dr. Najam – Robert was incapacitated in less than a second, how could he have screamed beyond that time period?

Let’s look at what the transcripts reveal.

In Joe Price’s first statement, he says:

“And I hear what is — you know, it was yelling, but it wasn’t.  It was just like grunts or something.”

In Price’s second statement, he states:

“I hear grunts. (indiscernable) yelling, but I thought well, its not — it wasn’t people yelling words it was like uhh, uhh, something like that, like repeatedly.”

Joe goes to Robert’s side and Victor goes upstairs to call 911.  When he returns to the second floor, Joe says:

“He actually moaned a little bit. He like look at me, or focus on anything, but — and that was the only time he ever made any noise when he was there, you know…”

Victor Zaborsky’s first statement goes even further in contradicting Dr. Najam’s testimony:

“And then we woke up — I woke up to screams. And Joe and I both jumped out of bed and ran to the door. And when we got to the door, Joe went out and flipped the light on and we heard another low kind of scream while we were at the — at our doorway.”

According to Dr. Najam, there is no possible way that Victor could have heard this scream when Joe and Victor were at the door because Robert would have already been dead for up to maybe thirty seconds, even more.

In Zaborsky’s second statement, he says:

“The next thing I know I woke up with a screams. I did not hear the chime. I was sound asleep. So I heard, I heard these set of, like, like, a really low breathy grunt kind of sound, but it was loud, and so I jumped up. Joe jumped up beside me. We’re both sort of “What is that? What is that?”  We run to the door of our bedroom and open the door, and we heard another kind of grunt…”

In both Joe and Victor’s statements, they consistently state that it was not just one scream, but rather multiple screams, which would extend beyond the time that Dr. Najam says Robert would still be alive.

If Dr. Najam is correct in his assertion, the inescapable conclusion is that Robert could not have made multiple screams…and presumably he would not have been found until the next morning by the sleeping defendants.

So while this defense expert has provided the defendants with a plausible scenario on how Robert died, he seems to have also taken away a crucial element of their story, which is how they came to know that Robert was fatally injured.

-posted by David

52 comments for “Do Dead Men Groan?

  1. Robert
    04/28/2010 at 9:38 AM

    At least for Who Murdered Robert Wone blogging crime solvers purposes, I do not think it matters whether or not Najam ultimately testifies.

    I think that if his assertions are true and accurate, then this would leave little doubt that the trio’s story was concocted to protect somebody.

    But that still leaves the question of who did what and who is covering for whom. Not that one has to answer these questions for the current trial.

  2. BenFranklin
    04/28/2010 at 10:20 AM

    The moans, grunts & screams heard by Price & Zaborsky were not sounds coming from Wone who was already dead. It would be difficult to discern from upstairs from whom or where the sounds were originating.

    I’ve repeatedly posited that these screams & moans were actually coming from Ward who was drifting in and out of a Lunesta® zombie state. These sound like the screams of a man in an ambulatory nightmare who was neither awake or asleep. Talking and vocalizations are common for patients using Lunesta®.

    • Clio
      04/28/2010 at 9:47 PM

      “They drummed you out of Hollywood, so you come crawling back to Broadway. But Broadway doesn’t go for booze and dope. Now get out of my way, I’ve got a MAN waiting for me.”

      • Swannie
        04/29/2010 at 12:18 PM

        Is that quote from a movie? Tell me which one; I want to see it.

        • former crackho
          04/29/2010 at 7:21 PM

          My fav movie – “Valley of the Dolls”.

      • former crackho
        04/29/2010 at 7:15 PM

        “Stoned? I’m merely traveling in cognito!”

        Greetings from Denver. I have lots of catchup reading to do when I get back home.

        • Clio
          04/29/2010 at 10:36 PM

          FCH, I do wonder what Victor was doing in Denver and why s/he left his own “Rocky Mountain High” in such haste suddenly that summer.

        • Robert
          05/10/2010 at 12:53 AM

          Is that “catchup” or “ketchup” like that which Dr. Lee has provided when giving expert testimony?

  3. CC Biggs
    04/28/2010 at 11:20 AM

    Good points. The whole story about how Joe/Victor became aware of the murder always seemed fishy. First, sometimes they describe the sound as a scream, other times as low grunting. Well, which is it? It seems like the housemates never worked out the details of their story as to the precise sound that awoke them, and so they’ve described it inconsistently. Next, how was the sound so loud as to wake up Joe and Victor in their upstairs bedroom, but not so loud as to wake up Dylan who was sleeping on the same floor as Robert? That doesn’t make sense, even taking into account Dylan’s cock-and-bull “sleeping pill” excuse. Third, if they heard grunts/screams and then IMMEDIATELY rushed to Robert as they claim, how would they not have seen or at least heard the “intruder” running out of the house? It makes no sense.

  4. Lyn
    04/28/2010 at 11:28 AM

    The defense will probably argue that it was the intruder who was doing all of the grunting and screaming. They’ll dub him the “Grunting/Screaming (But Otherwise Completely Silent When Entering And Exiting The Property) Intruder.”

    Or maybe since their expert likes to testify to things that are outside the bounds of scientific consensus, he’ll testify that not alone does blood not flow out of your body after you are stabbed but that it is possible that completely dead people are able to grunt and scream after they are dead.

    • Lyn
      04/28/2010 at 11:47 AM

      sorry, “alone” was supposed to be “only.”

    • rk
      04/28/2010 at 8:21 PM

      I don’t think so. Why would an intruder scream? Only Robert would have reason to scream. Joe’s first words to the EMT were “I heard a scream.” If it was an intruder making the noise during the stabbing attack, then Joe and Victor would have come across Robert’s body within seconds of the stabbing. That was obviously not the case from the evidence.

      • Lyn
        04/29/2010 at 7:34 PM

        I was proposing absurd ideas on purpose (in keeping in line with the defendant’s theories we’ve heard so far).

  5. rk
    04/28/2010 at 1:31 PM

    According to the narrative presented by the defendants, I can only envision six possibilities for the screams/grunts/noises that supposedly woke Joe and Victor. Remember, they were loud enough to send both of them running down the stairs to investigate moments later.

    1) The sceams and grunts were from the “intruder” who was in the process of suffocating and stabbing Robert.
    2) They were from Robert, who was struggling to live after being stabbed
    3) From a combination of 1 and 2 above (screams from Robert, grunts from the intruder)
    4) The grunts were from Dylan, who was in the process of killing Robert (screams from Robert)
    5) The intruder killed Robert silently and immediately after Robert retired to bed, then hung out in the room for an hour to make sure Robert was absolutely dead, didn’t steal anything, then screamed and grunted while exiting the house (in an attempt to wake everyone?).
    6) There were no actual screams and/or grunts and they were fictionalized by the defense as one of their “talking points” to the police.

    #1, 2, and 3 do not match up with the evidence found by multiple EMTs. If the intruder was making the noise while attacking Robert, Joe and Victor would have been on the scene just moments after the attack. That puts the EMTs on the scene 6-7 minutes after the attack, which is not enough time for a body to go cold and clammy. The EMTs will tesify re the condition of the body, and the defense will have a hard time arguing that the EMTs are so incompetent that they can’t recognize body temperature. Dr. Najam surely won’t testify that the stab wounds 1) killed Robert immediately, 2) produced no blood splatter, 3) paralyzed Robert so he could not clasp at his heart or the wounds, AND 4) caused Robert’s entire body to go cold and clammy within 6-7 minutes of the attack.

    #4 fails for the same reason. If Dylan was making noise while attacking Robert, Joe and Victor would have found Robert moments after the attack. Again, it doesn’t square with the condition of Robert’s body. And before Ben rants and raves about a conspiracy and/or MPD incompetence re finding a cold body, remember that the Joe made no mention of Robert showing signs of life other than the “moan.” Joe held his hand and checked for a pulse. He didn’t say the body was warm. He didn’t tell Victor to tell the 911 operator that Robert was showing signs of life. He only said Robert moaned. How does Robert moan and then go cold and clammy 6-7 minutes later?

    #5 is implausible, and if the defense offers this “theory”, their case is sunk. Even OJ’s jury wouldn’t buy that one.

    That leaves us with #6. The defendants had to come up with a reason for running downstairs and discovering the body – noises from downstairs were the only explanation they could come up with. It just doesn’t match with the condition of Robert’s body. I’d be shocked if the defendant’s don’t take a plea prior to a verdict.

    • Hoya Loya
      04/28/2010 at 2:10 PM

      Nice reasoning rk.

      Also, just a note to any other posters/lurkers from the NYC area: the May Washingtonian is now available at Barnes & Noble.

      • Charl
        04/28/2010 at 2:17 PM

        Is it available outside the US, perhaps online?

      • Tallulah
        04/28/2010 at 5:53 PM

        Wahhh! I’m in CA and dying to read it!!

    • Eagle
      04/28/2010 at 2:22 PM

      None of the doctor’s theory explains the
      needle marks or the cold clammy body or the
      manner of the the three defendants- no emotion.
      All responding the same way as if programmed.
      Or for that matter, the pristine house, the unruffled bed, the lack of expression of
      grief for the victim. Nothing taken from the house.
      Two different knives. Nothing disturbed in the house.
      All the shower activity. the super wet patio.
      The difficulty of an intruder getting in and out of the house without any evidence of an intruder’s presence.
      Give me a break.

      • Bea
        04/28/2010 at 2:43 PM

        While I concur that none of the theories other than the defendants having concocted the story makes any sense, there are experts hired (whored) by the defense which will also testify that the time of death was right before the 911 call, that the amount of blood was consistent with the internal bleeding caused by those particular stab wounds, and that the ordinary kitchen knife WAS the murder weapon.

        This is not to say that each such witness will be allowed, or even if allowed, that they won’t retreat from these “positions” on the stand, or that the prosecution won’t be able to poke large holes in such testimony – keep in mind that the prosecution is bolstering its witness list beyond the original Medical Examiner with other experts.

        And, of course, there is common sense – why did an intruder come in for the sole purpose of killing a man who was sleeping there for one night only, why pass up the first bedroom, how could the defendants “hear” the grunts but not the intruder running down the stairs and out the door, why did Joe & Victor NOT see the intruder leaving as they descended the stairs, why did the intruder not steal anything, why did the defendants each call the alleged person “the intruder” and use 11:43 as the time of the call if they didn’t concoct a story . . . the list goes on and on.

      • plumskiter
        04/29/2010 at 9:31 AM

        to eagle. is there evidence of “super wet patio”?

        if so, where?

        also, does anyone know if there is any independent evidence (like contact with a plumber before the murder) of the supposed problems with joe’s and victor’s shower? i do find the fire on the grill + watering the plants + problems with the shower curious.

        • Craig
          04/29/2010 at 10:44 AM

          Plum: There is this MPD crime scene photo of the hose laying on the patio. The original affidavit mentions the hose on page 11, paragraph#3, although nothing is in there about “super wet.”

  6. TK
    04/28/2010 at 1:46 PM

    It is interesting how they describe the sounds as if they could be coming from someone being suffocated. Wasn’t there evidence in the autopsy (from the condition of Robert’s eyes?) that indicated that he could have been suffocated? And if he still had that mouthguard in, he could have been suffocated even faster. Maybe they really did hear him being suffocated, perhaps by Dylan. It’s possible he was just trying to subdue Robert. It’s not my favorite theory but it fits with Joe and Victor’s claims about the sounds at least…

    • rk
      04/28/2010 at 1:52 PM

      Yes, but then the EMTs wouldn’t have found a cold and clammy body that had been dead for some time.

      • CDinDC
        04/28/2010 at 2:58 PM

        Unless, it had been bathed in cold water. Damp from not drying out completely. Cold because Robert’s body adjusted to the water temperature.

  7. Charl
    04/28/2010 at 2:15 PM

    Dr Najam’s theory may or may not reach the trial, but there are still the unanswered puncture wounds to account for.Even if BF’s speculation rings true, would Dylan have gone through meticulous acts such as injecting Robert, while in a ‘trance’ and would Robert still have laid there, not defending himself?

    • Eagle
      04/28/2010 at 4:40 PM

      Correct me if I am wrong: it doesn’t really matter if stabbing the the victim’s heart caused immediate immobilization.
      Robert may have been
      immobilized long before the stabbing due to a poisoned drink or via needles.
      No need for an” intruder”. Any of the three in the house could have stabbed the victim his heart at unknown time and in unknown place .
      As for the absence of blood, let’s remember there were two other stab wounds in addition to the one stab wound to the heart.
      Either or both of those wounds would likely have bled and thus would have needed cleaning up.
      TA DA!! So much for the good doctor and his theory.

      • Bea
        04/28/2010 at 4:52 PM

        I think the prosecution may have given up trying to introduce evidence of the needle marks. Can’t possibly introduce evidence of a poisoned drink since nothing showed in his blood, no evidence in the glassware. The government is still trying to get the RESTRAINTS in, though the defense is vigorously opposing (of course).

        Don’t know how the doctor would answer about the blood of the other two wounds, and ‘what if’ those two wounds were “first” and “second” – defensive struggle, I would assume, and yelling like mad. Imagine all that would have to go ‘right’ for the defense here: unknown intruder scales back gate on off-chance that the door would be unlocked – it is!; go into kitchen and ignore items to steal but pick up kitchen knife; proceed (very quietly) upstairs and pass one sleeping man in a bedroom in favor of the one who is there only one night; stab him FIRST in the heart so that he dies immediately, then two more times for good measure, and he bleeds internally; because of the grunt-screams, the intruder swiftly but oh-so-quietly leaves and descends the stairs as the 3rd floor occupants run down; intruder doesn’t knock over anything in the dark, doesn’t leave a single print, and goes out the back door (not the closer front door?) and instead of opening the door to the gate, scales back over it.

        What did the intruder get for all his trouble? A perfect murder of a complete stranger? This is the BEST the defense can offer IF the jury gets to hear its experts AND believes ALL its experts over the prosecution’s (even the kitchen knife as murder weapon, that the murder occurred right at 11:45 before the call).

        Giving EVERY VICTORY to the defense: what about the neighbor hearing screams before 11:34???

        • rk
          04/28/2010 at 6:26 PM

          Bea – you’re leaving some things out of the defendants’ best case intruder scenario. I’ll add a few things if you don’t mind:

          Unknown and unseen intruder scales back gate on off-chance that the door would be unlocked – it is!; opening back door causes audible chime; the intruder ignores the chime – these folks have an alarm, they might be awake – what to do? Press on!

          The stealth intruder goes into the kitchen and ignores items to steal but picks up a kitchen knife; he or she (Ninja assassins can be female too) proceeds quietly upstairs and passes one sleeping man in a bedroom in favor of the one who is there only one night; the intruder stabs Robert in the heart so that he dies immediately!

          The first strike doesn’t sever Robert’s spinal cord yet still somehow paralyzes him so he can’t defend himself, yell or grasp at his own wound; then the intruder methodically stabs Robert two more times for good measure (even though he’s instantly dead and paralyzed by the first stabbing).

          The stabbings cause no blood splatter anywhere in the room or on any part of the knife except the sides of the blade; the blade contains no trace of Robert’s shirt; Robert only bleeds internally except for some miniscule external bleeding. The intruder carefully removes the blade, and deciding to leave the murder weapon at the scene of the crime like any good Ninja, carefully places the blade on Robert’s stomach.

          The stealth intruder makes it down the stairs without detection; the intruder doesn’t knock over anything in the dark, doesn’t leave a single print, and goes out the back door (not the closer front door?), closes the door behind him and instead of opening the door to the gate, scales back over it.

          Robert lays dead (instantaneously dead, remember?) long enough for his body to cool down to a cold clammy condition; Robert then wakes up from his paralyzed and dead state (only now he can find the power to yell) so he can grunt and scream loud enough to wake Joe and Victor; our heroes Joe and Victor head down the stairs, wondering who was grunting/screaming down below.

          Joe and Victor don’t know if the noise was a loud TV, Dylan, Robert or Sarah. So they first check on Robert. He’s been stabbed – someone is in our house – it must be an intruder! What to do? Check to see if Dylan has been stabbed too? – nah. Check to see if the intruder is still in Dylan’s room? Check to see if Sarah is downstairs? No way, that’s too scary for these heroes. Instead, Victor screams at the top of his lungs and wakes the neighbors. Victor goes back upstairs to call 911, leaving Joe all alone on the 2nd floor with the possible intruder (who might be in Dylan’s room).

          Victor informs the operator of the stabbing, then asks for the time. Dylan wanders out, says hello, and wonders why the boys are causing such a ruckus. He doesn’t bother to go outside and wave down the ambulance.

          Then, Robert, whose body is cold, clammy and paralyzed (AND instantly dead!) somehow again moans in pain when being attended by Joe. He’s back to life! Joe decides this is not important and doesn’t bother telling Victor, who is on the phone giving medical advice. Joe doesn’t bother to tell the EMTs about the moaning when they arrive moments later. Joe sees blood everywhere, but the blood seeps back into the three stab wounds before the EMT’s arrive.

          When the EMTs arrive, Dylan yawns, gets bored and heads back to bed. The EMTs inexplicably puncture Robert’s body with needles in multiple places for no apparent medical reason before transporting him to the hospital. Then homophobic, inexperienced and incompetent police officers and detectives conspire with the homophobic, inexperienced and incompetent EMT’s, doctors, medical examiners and forensic experts to frame Joe, Victor and Dylan. Not one of the homophobic, inexperienced, and incompetent (and now crooked!) police officers, detectives, EMTs, doctors, medical examiners or forensic experts comes forward with the real story of how the homophobic detectives decided to frame the boys. The evil police officers, detectives, EMTs, doctors, coroners and forensic experts then cause Joe and the boys to incur vast legal expenses just because some damn Ninja happened to scale a alley fence in Dupont Circle.

          • Bea
            04/28/2010 at 6:57 PM

            Additions appreciated! May we add –

            Downstairs tenant Sarah (adult straight female) had decided to spend the night with gay male couple even though it was a Wednesday and she had work the next day, and they lived nearby for an easy travel home after socializing;

            Victor had expected to remain in Denver until very late but caught an early flight home; no one told him Robert was coming by – wouldn’t have known if he hadn’t seen Dylan making the bed (why Dylan not Joe?) – though Joe claims that he made the bed;

            Robert is lying on top of the covers in a “kitty corner” position with not a sleet rumpled nor more than a single indentation in the bed pillow but for where his head lay;

            Joe, in his statement that night, tells officers that from the doorway he can see Robert ” has blood on his shirt that is visible” – no mention of turning on the light – so the intruder must have traveled in and out and found Robert’s heart in the darkness;

            Joe, in his statement that night, states that one officer claimed that Joe may have found the knife “in” Robert instead of lying on Robert’s chest – Joe’s definitive response “I don’t know”; he was clear with officers during interviews that this was NOT so, but with W-5 at Cosi, had made the same claim – seems like something one would remember with an indelible stamp;

            Joe “tried” to find a pulse, and, lifting his shirt, saw “a lot of blood” – when he applied pressure with the towel Victor handed him at the 911 dispatcher’s orders Robert “actually moaned a little bit”;

            Joe claims that when the stretcher removed Robert’s body, “I could see there was a lot more blood on the bed. . . it kind of went under him”.

            It goes on and on in terms of how ludicrous it is.

            • BadShoes
              04/28/2010 at 7:14 PM

              I’ve been puzzling over the curious incident of the light that Bea mentions. When Messrs. Zaborsky and Price make their great descent, they immediately see Mr. Wone’s body. Apparently, the lights were on and Mr. Wone’s bedroom door was open, otherwise there would be nothing to see.

              Dylan Ward, however, in his account, says that he heard the latch on Mr. Wone’s bedroom door click shut after Mr. Wone finished his shower. He also says that when he emerged from his room, maybe 2-3 minutes after the Great Descent, “the lights were on.”

              So, our Ninja must have opened Mr. Wone’s door and turned on the lights, without, however, awakening Mr. Wone, who was sleeping on his back on top of the turned down sheet.

              Having murdered Mr. Wone, our Ninja now departs, leaving the door open and the light on. No one notices any light coming in under their doors, nor hears the sound of the door opening.

              • Swannie
                04/29/2010 at 12:58 PM

                FYI, there is a street lamp on Swann that may shine into the windows of the second floor front bedroom of 1509, thus providing a bit of light (assuming the curtains are not drawn). But with Dylan’s door closed I believe the hallway would have been quite dark; I guess Ninja eyes adjust to changes in the amount of light at super quick Ninja speed.

              • BadShoes
                05/03/2010 at 10:31 AM

                correction: Mr. Zaborsky said that Joe Price flipped the light on in the “hallway” at the beginning of their descent. The state of the lights in Mr. Wone’s room is undefined.

          • plumskiter
            04/29/2010 at 9:34 AM

            while i hesitate to speculate about what a person would “normally” do, rk’s point about dylan not going out to flag down the emt’s is a good point and one i hadn’t thought of. i know that i, in a similar situation – not a murder but someone who passed out at a bridge game – went outside to flag down the ambulance and it seemed like it took forever for it to arrive. just seemed like a natural and concerned thing to do, to make sure emt’s get to right place and that they are taken directly to person in need. come to think of it, i did the same thing on another occasion when they were coming to my house for my mom. good point, rk.

            • Bea
              04/29/2010 at 12:29 PM

              Hey, I go outside when a taxi is coming to let them know which house!

        • MotherOfInvention
          04/28/2010 at 8:01 PM

          why have they givenn up on the needle marks?

          • Bea
            04/28/2010 at 8:09 PM

            I think because they decided not to introduce evidence of xylene (too nebulous, too late). Perhaps needle marks will come in because of someone opening the gates (in defense case) but I don’t think the judge will allow random ‘needle mark’ evidence without some theory.

        • MotherOfInvention
          04/28/2010 at 8:03 PM

          and where can I read about the neighbor who heard screams before 11:34?

          • Bea
            04/28/2010 at 8:10 PM

            In the original “Affidavit” charging Dylan Ward – it’s very comprehensive in laying out all the facts (and pertains to all three defendants).

        • MotherOfInvention
          04/28/2010 at 8:04 PM

          and what is the evidence of restraints? sorry, I’m new, trying to catch up

          • Bea
            04/28/2010 at 8:15 PM

            Dylan had a treasure trove of sex toys and BDSM equipment in his closet (and photos found on Joe’s work computer showed he and Dyl using some of that equipment in their BDSM activities – don’t ask WHY he kept them at work). Among that treasure trove were many sophisticated restraint devices that could have been used on Robert to prevent defensive moves which likely would NOT have left a mark (at least not in the same way as a rope, for example).

            The prosecution wants this stuff (restraints – not every last sex toy) introduced but the defense is fighting it – also fighting intro of the “trouples” arrangement among other things. Standard stuff to fight it – hope the judge decides to let the jury make of it as they will with some limiting instructions given how probative it is. My opinion only, of course.

            • MotherOfInvention
              04/28/2010 at 8:37 PM

              Ok, great thanks.

      • Robert
        05/10/2010 at 12:56 AM

        EAGLE Robert may have been unconscious due to “date rape” paralytics which could also explain limited amount of blood when he was stabbed.

  8. Bea
    04/28/2010 at 7:27 PM

    General question for all, particularly those with medical/forensic background – or know someone with such education:

    Joe states (Trans., P. 11-12): “I remember very distinctly his hand was like this. He had his thumb between these two fingers. He was squeezing it, you know, hard.”

    The only thing I can find about clenched fist (which this SOUNDS like but might not be) is relating to burn deaths BUT more specifically, after skimming the surface, the following:

    “If a person is alive but unconscious before they are burned, the burned body will assume a pugilistic posture. This term arises from the similarity of the posture to that of a boxer in the ring; the arms are raised up in a defensive position and the hands are tightened into fists.”

    NOT SO if the person burning to death is conscious or if the cause of death occurred prior to the fire. Is this it all indicative that Robert was UNCONSCIOUS at the time he was STABBED?

    Med/forensics folks may be able to distinguish this from the ‘burn’ scenario – and perhaps this is a Joe lie/embellishment that just sounds good to him at the time. Don’t recall if Victor noticed this (Dylan noticed nothing about Robert’s body that I recall).


    • jeff
      04/28/2010 at 8:19 PM

      I thought this was odd as well.

      • Bea
        04/28/2010 at 9:20 PM

        Hi Jeff. Very similar thing, and I’d come across it too – I would assume if he was restrained (either with paralytic or restraints) AND conscious, his fist would have clenched even if his arms couldn’t move (chilling). And if unconscious, still wondering how the “burning” logic may or may not apply.

        It’s difficult to think in these terms, and I’m trying to be analytical – hope no one takes offense or thinks me cavalier in approach. There’s nothing ‘light’ about this.

    • Robert
      05/10/2010 at 12:59 AM

      BEA I don’t know anything about victims of burning assuming a “pugilistic posture.” But I do believe that on account of the “date rape” paralytic Robert was unconscious when he was stabbed and this contributed to a minimal amount of blood.

  9. Clio
    04/28/2010 at 9:37 PM

    Low, breathy grunts? According to the intruder “theory,” are these from Robert or the “intruder,” or is it a duet of nonverbal terror? To me, the chimes and grunts are the audio “grassy knolls” of this manufactured myth.

    What is a series of low, breathy grunts, anyway: sounds made during sleep or sounds made during sex?

  10. Spike
    04/28/2010 at 11:14 PM

    “don’t ask WHY he kept them at work”

    That’s easy! When you’re cruising Craigslist at work and you respond to a personal, somebody asks you to send more pics. So you do. If you keep them on your local computer and not your network hard drive, you’re pretty secure unless somebody goes looking for them. LIKE DETECTIVES.

    • Bea
      04/28/2010 at 11:26 PM


  11. Charl
    04/29/2010 at 7:44 AM

    Spike – you seem to know a lot ;-P

  12. CC Biggs
    04/29/2010 at 6:28 PM

    Didn’t Joe Price say that Robert was alive when he first reached him? (I believe he said Robert was still groaning.) Isn’t that totally inconsistent with the medical examiner’s findings on timing of death?

  13. Clio
    04/29/2010 at 10:46 PM

    I do wonder if Farzad knows Needham: surely, they’ve met at a conference or two. If so, then I wonder what Needham really thinks of Farzad’s medical revisionism — visionary for truth or quackery for profit?

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