What ‘State of Mind’ Do The Emails Suggest?
Emails, cards, letters, telephone calls.
Through much of the trial (and a fair amount of lead-up to it) we heard repeatedly from prosecutors that these records would reveal important information as to Price, Ward and Zaborsky’s ‘state of mind’ around the time of Robert’s murder. For her part, Judge Leibovitz was sympathetic to the argument.
However at trial, due to a series of stipulations and agreed-to redactions, much of these records were never entered as fact. The most we heard – and the most Leibovitz in her role as ‘finder of fact’ could consider – were passing references from Glenn Kirschner to a troubled home life: one where Dylan was pulling away from Joe, where Joe was pained by this and looking for options, and Victor seemed all but invisible.
These brief references suggested a family in trouble, looking to find a new way of existing together. We can now present at least a few extended communications that were only hinted at.
So far, the plaintiff’s attorneys have echoed the ‘state of mind’ argument in seeking the records, but they have augmented it as well. In the recently unsealed “Memorandum of Points and Authorities in Support…” (legal sticklers will find the rest of the title at the linked document), Covington’s Dan Suleiman et. al. noted:
“Defendants’ telephone and email records will necessarily reveal information regarding the communications among the Defendants and third parties in and around the time of Mr. Wone’s murder.”
This goes beyond state of mind, raising the specter of ‘third parties’ – who they are, what they knew, and what it may say about the events of August 2, 2006.
The answers to those questions may be forthcoming in the weeks ahead. For the moment, the actual emails: First, from Exhibit E: This email was sent from Joe Price’s Arent Fox account to Dylan Ward’s Verizon account, and time stamped Tuesday June 20, 2006, at 1:47pm.
Subject: thanks for the card
Dylan, Thanks for the card. I appreciate the thought – and the communication.
I’m not sure what to say in response. I’m not perturbed – just scared and upset. It has taken a couple of weeks, but it finally sank in that your disinterest and pushing away was not a momentary thing. Coming back to the same situation, having been gone from you for the weekend, is – I suppose – when it really hit me.
As you know, I have some experience with losing sexual interest in my partners and that was never pleasant, but, in no small part because of that experience, being on the other side is decidedly worse. My personal experience has always been that the light doesn’t come on again once it goes off. I know that you are not me, but it is nevertheless neve racking and i’ve spent the past couple of days obsessing about why this happened and how, hunting for some clue or understanding, but finding none.
I’m sorry the job change is so stressful. That would be nice if that were all that was causing your loss of attraction, but that is hard to imagine for me. I feared that the change would be tough and thought my affections and attentions would be helpful, not annoying. That makes being pushed away that much harder as I’m really not sure what else to do to be supportive of you during this challenging time. I know withdrawing and isolating are patterns for you during times of stress, but that is not easy to deal with as someon who loves and cares for you and wants to “be there” for you when you [sic] under duress.
Not sure what is next. I don’t want and would be put off by having you feign attraction. I also don’t want and won’t put you in a situation where you literally have to evade my physical attention, so I will continue to give you some space. Frankly that is easier for me too, as being pushed away is not something I was enduring very well.
Guess we wait and see what happens and hope for the best. Joe
Next, from Exhibit A, this chain represents emails sent on Sunday July 9, 2006, between Joe, again from his Arent Fox account and Dylan at his Verizon account. Approximately two-thirds of a month have followed since Joe’s email, with little less than a month before Robert would come and stay the night at Swann Street.
From: Price, Joseph Sent: 11:37am Subject: no idea if this would interest you, but…
here is a guy that has emailed me from Alt.com a few times. I could suggest a date/time to meet (just for drinks so we could see what we think). If you’d rather now, no worries, I’m happy to have you all to myself too. 🙂
Here is what his profile says: (five lines redacted)
From: Dylan Ward Sent: 1:57pm Subject: RE: no idea if this would interest you, but…
Hmmm… Scary idea, but I guess we could try… When/where were you thinking? 🙂
Just finished with Bess. Time to study. Kiss. D
From: Price, Joseph Sent: 2:02pm Subject: RE: no idea if this would interest you, but…
“Scary”? Hey love-of-my-life, I’m happy to give a third a try but only if you would like to try it. If you’d rather not, no worries at all. 🙂
If ‘scary’ means you are interested but that it is a little intimidating (I think it is), then we can give it a gry, and I would think while Vic is gone, maybe next Thursday evening? We could just meet him for drinks at our place or at a bar and see what we think. [two lines redacted]
Let’s chat more, whatever happens (or doesn’t) is fine by me. 🙂
Works sucks and we have no AC here. Ugh.
Now sure when we are leaving for the kids. Any interest in going? Love, Joe
From: Dylan Ward Sent: 2:05pm Subject: RE: no idea if this would interest you, but…
Yes. Intimidating. But we can try. Can’t know what it’s like without trying. : ) Let’s chat more. My parents get here thursday, but I’m not sure of the time…
Sorry can’t go to kids. I’m just finishing my email and then have to start studying. D
From Price, Joseph Sent 2:09pm Subject: RE: no idea if this would interest you, but…
okay, we will have to see what works scheduling wise — with your parents coming it may be a little tough. What did you have in mind in terms of spending time with your folks? Joe
-posted by Doug
Dylan,
You’re hot!
Joe
Holy shit. It seems clear to me that Joe was prepared to try anything to regain Dylan’s interest and that he was probably motivated to be particularly “imaginative” in this.
Just as an aside it strikes me how much the set up between the trouple mirrors the dynamics of the traditional married man with a mistress.
We have Joe, the self-satisfied married man who loves wifey but wants his bit on the side. He waits till wifey is out of town to play hard. As soon as the mistress threatens him with wanting more commitment or leaving the relationship Joe tries to ratchet up the interest by the equivalent of buying an expensive piece of jewellery.
We have Victor, the long suffering wife in denial. What she doesn’t see doesn’t hurt her. Unfortunately she has to put a lot of energy into not seeing a lot.
Then we have Dylan. The long suffering mistress who wants to supplant wifey and eventually starts issuing ultimatums to the married man – I want a commitment, I want you to show me how important I am to you.
For the record (in case anyone thinks I’m Joe, as was suggested in a previous post) I’ll state my beliefs. I believe that what happened that night was initiated by Joe. I believe that Victor probably had no prior knowledge at all of what was about to occur and, initially, was taken by surprise. I surmise that Dylan may also have had little knowledge of what was about to occur that night.
“Joe, the self-satisfied married man who loves wifey”
I don’t think so, Emily. That may have been true at one time, but it seems to me that Victor became nothing more than a convenience to help pay the bills, water the plants, and help paint a faux picture of a happily partnered gay couple.
In addition to the concubine living on the floor below Joe and Victor, we know he has hopped in bed with the neighbor across the street. That neighbor told of another of Joe’s conquests. How many more are there?
Every mention of “family” or “partner” in relation to Joe reminds me of four words from a show I saw in Lisner Auditorium in DC many years ago. The actor portraying Mordred in “Camelot” had a chilling voice that sounded like it was coming from the depths of Hell. After a maniacal laugh and some dialog aimed at King Arthur he ended the segment with: “Your life’s a fraud!”
Those words resonate over and over in reading about Joe Price, the family man, in the “USA Today” story from March 2004. Again, those words, “Your life’s a fraud,” apply when you see the tape he made about his loving gay partnership for William and Mary.
Now we see this communication to “love-of-my-life.” Does anyone really belive that? Isn’t that just more bullcrap to keep the concubine happily waiting for another rendezvous in the bedroom?
Price’s words and actions all scream “FRAUD!” I can’t begin to imagine how his lawyer can hope to get a jury to look upon him with anything but disgust. I doubt if I’ll ever see anything written about Price without thinking, “Your life’s a fraud.”
I think Joe is a tormented soul. Sad, really. I don’t say this to excuse any one of any thing. It’s just an observation, an “if only” moment. If only someone would have helped the guy . . .
I’m thinking I’ll probably grab a lot of razzing for the para above, but I’m sticking with it.
Helped him do what?
Joe diagnosed the problem accurately and then proceeded to do exactly what he said he should not do.
We all know people like this and it is sad, but I am not sure what anyone can do to help them. Every one I have ever known goes through a situation like this where they pursue the unattainable. Like Joe says, the light bulb rarely lights back up once it has burned out.
Helped him before all of this ever started — the “if only” moment (aka my bleeding heart).
I’m sure at some point in his past someone recognized that Joe probably needed help . . .
It would appear he never got it, and it seems no one ever intervened.
It’s just sad to me.
I agree with you, Deb. He seems like a man with a huge ego, but one that’s mostly for show. Somewhere along the way, he missed out on developing a healthy and honest self.
I look at a man like Joe and think about the lost potentials he possessed. A very smart and talented man who became lost in himself, and in the end destroyed the lives of many others…the “what if’s” are sad, but the havoc and devastation he created are much more tragic.
Some years back, The Onion published a wonderful book of mock headlines titled: “Our Dumb Century.” For September 1, 1939 it read (roughly):
“Hitler Launches World War Two: Experts cite unhappy childhood.”
Perfect. The Onion’s Titanic headline: “World’s Largest Metaphor Hits Iceberg” And appropriate here: “O.J. Finds Killer.”
We assume he created the havoc. Hasn’t been proven yet, but like I said above, I’m not excusing what was done. A thing done cannot be undone . . . wasn’t that Shakespeare???
The emails and the alt ad just filled me with a more comprehensive sense this tragedy. Because I can see the play being set up by the other side, doesn’t mean I’m playing for their team. I just see it for what it is. And in this case it’s terribly sad to me.
That I have compassion for any flawed human being does not mean that I believe him to be right in his behavior.
But I will NEVER relinquish my human compassion.
It separates us from the beasts.
(“Beasts” is not intended to imply a religious affiliation, or an impression that I think the kingdom animalia is somehow divided into an “us-es” and a “thems”)
Deb,
As a former compassionate soul who has become oh-so cynical – Kudos to you! The world looks better through your eyes than mine, I assure you!
Don’t get me too far wrong, Cat :o) I see the bad, but I look for the good.
My son posted something to facebook the other day that said darkness always finds the light. My response is darkness never lost the light.
It’s in there somewhere. Find it.
When we find the light and turn it on, we see clearly.
Then we will know who murdered Robert Wone.
But there is so much murky dark here . . .
No pity, sadness, etc for Joe from me.
I’ve know a ton of a-holes in my life, but none of them ended up with a dead man in their house. He had the ability to make better decisions.
Definitely, CD! At some point in our lives we become “adult” and must take responsibility for the “issues” in our own lives/minds. Like I said, no excuses, just sorrow. I don’t empathize, I don’t sympathize, I feel sorry for a younger Joe — whether he’s guilty or innocent, I feel sorry.
Though I won’t back down in my own feelings of sorrow, I will not try to “convert” you either.
More than infinite sides to every story. Eventually some mathematician finds a formula. Unfortunately entirely too late this time.
I’m trying to wrap my arms around a lot of this. I’ll start with not being able to understand why either Price or Ward thought these particular conversations, meant to repair a frayed relationship, were best done over email.
The only thing less romantic would be to write a legal brief.
Or send a sparkly cat card.
Craig, m’dear: I’ll attempt an answer with another question: Why did Gary Hart DARE newspapers to follow him around, when he was cheating on his wife? “”Follow me around. I don’t care. I’m serious. If anybody wants to put a tail on me, go ahead. They’ll be very bored.” I’d like a refund on all the campaign dollars I have donated to politicians who were then discovered to be flagrant risk takers on infidelity. And then lied when caught.
“Wrap my arms around…”? Yup. Apparently, lots more with Mr. Price. Apparently, Victor’s job involved a lot of travel or so claimed his attorney in seeking a lifting of restraints (curfew, electronic tracking, etc.) imposed by the Court. How convenient for Joe.
See my comment above . . . I have this overwhelming sense that Joe is not capable of dealing with emotion, sexuality, intimacy on a normal level.
It’s kind of depressing me.
It actually makes perfect sense to me. It’s sort of like sitting in a counselor’s office with your partner and saying things to the counselor so that you don’t have to look at your parter while you’re saying them. The “distance” that the e-mail provides allows you to say things that would be much harder to say in person. I’ve seen a similar phenomenon with text messages and instant messaging. People are able to make very detailed and specific…oh, let’s call them negotiations…that they would never be able make if they were having a face-to-face conversation.
E-mail avoids exposing the e-mail writer’s body language to the person reading the e-mail . Part of discerning the truth is evaluating body language.
That’s very nice. Especially if the writer and/or receiver are trying to deceive each other.
I don’t feel sorry for JP one bit. He has free will, just like the rest of us, you know.
Same goes for Dylan.
E-mail is devoid of the sensory experience of human contact. You simply see words on the page. You eliminate all the other senses–taste, touch, smell, and feel-you would have with personal contact, especially intimate contact.
How many times has someone completely misread your tone in an e-mail, when–if they had been with you–you might have seen immediately that the message was coming across completely wrong?
It doesn’t seem all that unusual to me.
In this situation, where Dylan was turning away from JP, perhaps JP wanted to express his feelings without all the heavy emotionalism of a face to face discussion of where they stand in the relationship. Plus, maybe he sensed that DW didn’t want to discuss it directly.
Also, maybe he wanted to choose his words carefully and put them “on the record” so to speak. The spoken word just travels into the ether. The written word is permanent.
Furthermore, as was alluded to below, sometimes people want a buffer between a direct discussion or confrontation. Often that buffer is in the form of a third party. In this case, the buffer is the less direct e-mail communication, which allows JP to say what he wants to say without DW feeling the “pressure” to make an immediate response that one would expect in a face-to-face conversation.
Finally, I’m sure that they had other face-to-face discussions related to the state of their relationship. I just don’t find the fact that this particular communication was done via e-mail to be unusual at all. However, if someone proved to me that e-mail communication was the ONLY way they discussed problems in their relationship, and that when together at home they acted as if the issues did not exist, then that would seem strange to me.
That part is pretty easy, Craig — It was practical. We are busy people these days. And we “type” our communications.
What am I doing right now? What were you doing earlier?
Work, kids, parents, brothers, sisters, cousins, organizations, opportunities. . . It’s no longer a world where we land a job and stay there 20 years until we proudly retire.
I think most people these days start and finish “intimate” conversations as a hybrid of real/text. I do.
Additionally, at the point those e-mails about “a third” were written, Mr. Wone was still alive.
You know I’m no psychologist or lawyer, but if you sit back and think about normal every day life . . . you probably would not have trouble wrapping.
You have probably also done “the hybrid”, as have I.
We make time where we find time. . . for those we love.
I think you can wrap, but I think you don’t like it.
Here’s what stands out to me:
Joe’s ALT.com profile seems to have been created for the explicit purpose of keeping Dylan’s interest in him. It was not a random act, but rather had a specific intent, and it was created less than two months before Robert was murdered. This seems like very big news now that we have timestamp on how and why the alt.com profile was created.
Joe seems to recognize that Dylan is pulling away, and wants more time to himself, but yet Joe won’t give him that time by extending an invitation to see the kids. He continues to crowd Dylan with attention, which is exactly what Dylan doesn’t want at that time.
Joe signs his emails with “Love, Joe” while Dylan doesn’t even spell out his name for Joe, let alone add in “Love”
The time being spent with the kids would seem to be a Joe and Victor activity, yet he was even using that to keep Dylan involved. I can imagine that Victor didn’t love this, yet put up with it and, of course, Joe never noticed that how Victor would have felt because he was too focused on how Dylan felt because Dylan was the focus of his attention.
These e-mails show what was happening — Dylan’s loss of sexual interest in him wasn’t something happening to Dylan, but rather it was happening to Joe.
David, co-ed
What stands out to me is Joe mentioning Dylan’s pattern of withdrawal and isolation in times of stress. Well, we’ve observed the withdrawal part, and I guess that he was in a “time of stress” when approached by a first responder who asked what happened and he turned on his heel and retreated to his room. I’m going to presume he had some self insight (is a very bright guy we’re told) and probably shared some of his analytic insights about himself (withdrawal and isolation) with his close friend.
Educated guess: Dylan had years of psychotherapy. It fits in with a physician dad and taking presumably prescribed mood altering meds. Not sure about the sleep aids.
Next, Joe is a fast talker, but I wonder how long it took him to write that email to Dylan. Although he needed a spell checker, I’d imagine he was struggling over the “right” wording so he would not say something that would have unintended consequences. Putting myself in his place, it would have taken me about 30 minutes to write that; 31 if I’d edited it for spelling errors. That’s time that was billed to some megacorporation client!!
David: Re your hypothesis about alt.com being created and intended for Dylan’s amusement. Although I cannot read the exhibit well (webpages), the top address shows Culuket is one man seeking one man or couple. Maybe the rest of the webpage modifies that, but I cannot read it. (Not that I’d probably understand it anyway.) Is there an alternate interpretation of the address line of his alt.com webpage?
Gloria, I think it is possible that Joe was doing a few things with that profile. First, he was making sure that in the worst case scenario where Dylan leaves, he’s got something to fall back on. Seems his light for Vic was dim at best and not rekindling.
Secondly, it was a subtle way to show Dylan that there are others who might be interested in taking Dylan’s place, and perhaps arouse a bit of jealousy.
Then of course there’s the general consensus that Joe playing sexual Sheherazade with a new and tantalizing tale for Dylan whenever he grew bored. It’s possible, but Joe sounds more like someone trying desperately to hold onto someone who is halfway out the door. He had to be painfully aware that Dylan’s life is a series of moments with which he grew bored and moved on.
Carolina – well said. This is exactly how I saw the e-mail. And I don’t see the fact that this conversation took the form of an e-mail to be unusual at all. I think Joe was leaving the house in the morning and sitting at his desk with the gnawing feeling that Dylan was slipping from his grasp. He probably wondered constantly what plans Dylan might be making while he was work. With Dylan’s parents coming in, he may have even wondered if Dylan was seeking some counsel from them regarding an impending change to his living arrangements. One word for this dialogue – DESPERATE.
Didn’t Dyl’s brother — St. John’s grad Mac, perhaps? — also stay at Swann that July in the guest room? That must have made the weekend before August 2 another no-sex zone for the increasingly frustrated Culuket.
You are correct, Muse.
I want an explanation of Clio being The Muse. That fascinates me! Clio and I have not always seen eye to eye, and I think I’ve been misinterpreted a couple of times by Clio.
Maybe you are a muse, kid?
You seem to lack gender, race, ethnic and religious confines.
Sounds nazi on the surface, but I think is something much more eloquent.
Be at peace with me. I like you.
Deb,
In Greek history, Clio is the “muse” of history. If so inclined, Clio may respond further.
Lacking “race, ethnicity”, etc. sounds nazi to you on the surface? Nazis were all about race, ethnicity, etc. Clio’s no nazi.
Time to bone up on history!
Pardon,
Above it should read “in Greek mythology, Clio is the muse of history…”
Nazi’s were about homogeny. That’s where I was going with that.
I love you both, Susan and Deb.
Susan is correct, Deb; Clio’s spirit of inquiry about the past permeates everyone here on the Editors’ Island of the Flies. As the eminent historian Carl Becker said in 1931, every man (and we’ll add woman and everything else in between) is or can be an historian! And, that fact is “killing” Culuket, who would prefer that we all forget what may have happened on August 2, 2006!
So true!
Could you comment on the prescription medications Dylan was taking? What symptoms do they address? I am not asking for a medical opinion on any individual, but, in general terms.
Also, would anyone take them for a recreational purpose?
According to Joe, Dylan was taking Lexapro and Wellbutrin for depression. I think Dylan’s only reference to meds during his interview was to his taking a “sleeping pill.” Wasn’t that Lunesta? If I could stay awake long enough (ha!), I’d go through the interviews again.
Lexapro (an SSRI) and Wellbutrin (NDRI) are two common antidepressants that work on different mechanisms. It’s not at all unusual to try different combinations and dosages to arrive at a regimen that stabilizes the person. Each person’s brain chemistry is different, and this is an art as much as a science for psychopharmacology. I guess you can abuse any meds, but I don’t see a rationale for doing so with these two. I would be a little concerned about drinking alcohol (even a glass of wine) followed shortly by Lunesta. Of course, throwing in recreational drugs on top of this powerful combination is not recommended.
Someone (Susan?) mentioned Dylan’s mood lifting a few weeks after the infamous email exchange with Joe. My first thought was that maybe Dylan’s meds were being adjusted; it takes time for the chemistry to kick in. It’s also possible his sexual interest and function were affected, as those are common side effects of these meds. (Side effects vary within each person, depending on their brain chemistry. No way to know for sure til you try.)
Was it odd that Joe knew the exact meds taken by Dylan (although, for all I know, he was wrong)? He also recounted that Michael took the same antidepressants (in the context of Michael being HIV positive). To me, that’s pretty intimate info. Unless he made a run to CVS to pick up Dylan’s meds???
Thanks, Gloria.
You are a graceful fountain of information and insight.
Might be interesting to know if Joe covered anyone as a registered domestic partner under the health plan at Arent Fox.
Most DC law firms provide domestic partner coverage. Most require an individual to only have one domestic partner, but who’s counting?
The carriers — they would not allow a second “spouse”. If, however, they could on paper turn a third into a dependent, it flies sometimes — usually easier if you are related by blood or marriage.
Assuming Victor has his own coverage through his employer, Joe could claim Dylan as a domestic partner (since most employers do not require the partner be registered under state law). Although most employers with domestic partner benefits require an affidavit that the individual is a domestic partner, that might not be a stretch for Joe since he claimed he was married to Dylan when speaking with the police.
Most of the major DC firms have domestic partner benefits, but I don’t think most do much checking. They also tend to be self-insured.
I note from pharmacological sources that the two drugs you mentioned often are prescribed together, in part to offset “sexual side effects” of Wellbutrin (e.g., loss of libido). An alternative is to use Viagra (in the case of men).
Also, both drugs include suicidal or violent thoughts as potential side effects. Even moderate alcohol use is counter-indicated.
Occasionally, I wonder if Joe was putting forth all the information about Dylan and Michael in his interviews on purpose.
Yes, and hoping something “took” with the cops and they ran with it. Then he could say, “Oh god, I didn’t mean to direct them to *you*! I was just trying to tell them all I know!”
I’m not sure if he did it consciously or unconsciously, but I think his goal in the interviews was to seem like he was being forthcoming about embarrassing details when, in fact, he was withholding key information. He mentions Michael’s history of drug use, but withholds the facts that Michael lived in the area, had keys and access codes to the house, and had been in contact with Joe in the hours before the murder. He mentions Dylan’s antidepressant use (and thus his history of psychiatric disease), but fails to mention that he and Dylan had been trolling for tricks (i.e., potential suspects) on alt.com.
One of the big reasons I think that these guys are guilty is that they never seem to consider the possibility that this could’ve been done by someone they knew. It’s not the drug-using brother. It’s not one of the contractors. It’s not a former trick who had cased the house. It’s someone unknown. Or maybe the homeless black guy. That’s a big “tell” to me. Joe Price is extremely intelligent and extremely vindictive. I think that if someone had murdered someone in his house, and he didn’t know who the killer was, he would have devoted himself to finding out. Instead, he devoted himself to his own legal defense. The only reason I can think of for him to sit around and NOT organize a massive manhunt for the “real” killer is that he already knows who the “real” killer is.
ChiLaw:
When was the first time you ever read this blog? What were you initial thoughts? Do you remember? Have they evolved?
Mine sure have.
I wonder if the eds would ever let any of us do a “When I first met you” piece?
My impetus is I personally suspected Dylan first . . . now not at all.
So I’m kind of curious to “group think”: what did we assume, what did we learn, what do we think now — a little more than 4 years later. (Sad)
You old pros could handle the “Then, in the middle, and now” stuff and the rest of us could occasionally comment.
I read for a long time before I ever posted and followed the case in the Washington Post and the various legal blogs. I have not made up my mind about who murdered Robert Wone, although I am convinced the defendants know more than they told the police. I do think whoever murdered Robert either was in the house or came in through the front door with a key and was not an unknown intruder who entered through the back door.
I find it difficult to comprehend the Svengali-like qualities of Joe Price.
Right on, Chilaw. Drugs, lust and lies. Joe and Dylan are committed to continue down that path forever; but any possibility of eventually squeezing a tiny truth out of Victor?
Only 9 days late!
Have been in Honduras for a while and have attempted to stay on top of WMRW. Will be home on the 13th.
Internet access is real hit or miss around here, as is everything else around here, including cash.
Spent 45 minutes responding to Deb´s 8/26 posting on my iPhone, only to have it blown out when I submitted.
The husband is convinced WMRW is my crack addiction. Frankly, I cannot imagine a more honorable addiction. For some odd reason, he thought WMRW would be left behind in DC. Fortunately, he has taken to going to sleep early, as he is still acclimating to the 2 hour time difference. Wearing him out all day on white water rafting, zip line canopy tours, and more helps.
Back to Deb. I couldn´t agree with you more. For almost 1 year now, I´ve considered asking the editors to run a survey on everyone´s opinion. I believe I mentioned it right after the verdict of the criminal trial, as I really wanted some hard science and numbers on how many of us thought what.
I am confident over the course of this blog´s tenure, all of our opinions and feelings have dramatically and radically changed a number of times.
No other media outlet has caused me to think and rethink about this case so much.
In the event the editors are too busy for a survey, I almost want all of us to chime in with something along the following:
(1) Joe did it
(2) Dylan did it
(3) Victor did it (we all know better on this one)
(4) Joe and Dylan did it
(5) Or any combination thereof
It would take nothing for someone to present, “yet another theory,” to change my mind again.
This crowd is way too skilled and versed to blindly follow the mainstream opinion.
Maybe the editors will smartly assign the survey to one of us posters to gather and assemble the data and report the findings.
Quick word to the wise: if you´re committed to the case and the blog, stay on top of it every day. It´s way too hard to lose time and backtrack.
Chag Sameach and Happy Labor Day to all!
Rich:
Hope you are having fun on vacation.
For the survey, since some may think that Joe’s brother is the culprit, you may have to expand it a bit.
Ninja assassin, anyone? Anyone? Bueller?
Bueller, Bueller? You are funny!
Hola, Rich, como te va y que nos cuentas? Buen provecho.
Actually, the editors did conduct a survey of wmrw readers, after the summations and before Judge L issued her verdict.
They asked: “Was there a turning point for you, and if so, what was it? Who among the witnesses was most effective, and who among the large legal teams do you think performed the best? Who of the defendants do you believe most warrants to be found guilty, or acquitted? And are you any closer to answering the basic questions of August 2nd, 2006?”
When you’re back home, check out posting of June 29 for the survey results. Our editors don’t miss much, right?
Gloria:
1) are you suggesting a connection between HIV and the antidepressants each were taking?
2) Very insightful on the meds in general, the fact that it’s a balancing act. Are we sure we know why he was taking each med? I think that’s important too. I have chronic hives, so I have a “cocktail” of meds that I take — some regularly, others as boosters.
Two of the meds in the line-up are typically used to treat other issues — one is anti-anxiety (I think, but may be antidepressant), the other is typically used to treat heartburn. Respectively, they are atavan and zantac.
They are definitely “mood altering” because when I am not itchy, I am much more pleasant.
I guess my long winded response leads to this: Who cares WHAT meds he was taking, WHY was he taking them?
I was not suggesting a connection between HIV and the antidepressants that Michael took. Of course, living with an HIV positive diagnosis can push a connection. (But is there something else I missed?) I was simply marking approximately where in the transcript Joe mentioned to the detective the antidepressants Dylan was taking. Joe mentioned Dylan’s meds and then, when telling the detective about Michael, said Michael was HIV positive and taking the same combination of antidepressant meds as Dylan.
I interpreted that as making a little attempt to downplay them, as being common. (But as several of you brilliant posters have remarked, of equal interest is what Joe chooses to reveal and what he chooses to omit.) Again, I don’t know if Joe was accurate as to Dylan’s and Michael’s meds; I have not found an account from Dylan as to his taking antidepressants.
Despite what Joe implied (or intended to imply), these are not trivial meds (and we don’t know the dose or what else they were mixed with.)
Is mixing the drugs with alcohol and Lunesta a bad idea? It looks like it is to me.
I’m going to say “depends”.
Of course, the fact that Joe says Dylan was taking medication does not mean it is true. Victor says Dylan take a sleep aid, which also does not mean it is true. However, it may be evidence that the three shared information about their medications. Of course, neither Dylan nor Victor offers much information about Joe.
I do think the medications each were taking in August, 2006 is relevant in the civil case.
Nothing you missed — I just needed the clarification as a ponderable.
What happens when you add drug abuse (ecstasy and party drugs) and a smattering of alcohol to the prescription meds mix?
I think we can safely say that combo is ill advised, although it may not result in any negative effects depending on the user.
‘Maybe the rest of the webpage modifies that, but I cannot read it.’
I am not sure you want to read it. But one copy of the add appears on this site in the 01/30/2009 post:
Culuket ALT.com profile removed
01/30/2009
By Michael.
I could not read the add either, at first.
It may be common to all browsers, but in Firefox, if you place the mouse pointer on the add and left click, it expands to a readable size.
I am sure other readers on this site can help you with the terms.
I also need a little help.
On this web site, on 02/05/09, Anonymous left a post referring to an article in the New Yorker:
02/05/2009 WMRW
Anonymous on 02/06/2009 at 2:43 PM
‘getting ideas from the New Yorker article and his out of control drugs & S&M lifestyle.’
Can anyone provide a reference to this article, date, issue, author, title?
I know that information is probably here on the site somewhere. But so far my rudimentary search skills have not produce anything but hundreds of possibilities that are not useful.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
The information you want is available under the WMRW entry “Burn After Reading.” The entry refers to a New Yorker article written by the late John Updike. Put Updike in the search engine and it should pop up for you.
Mike: Uh, thanks, I guess. Whadda education I’m getting!! But I was greatly impressed with Joe’s discretion, when he answered the question about his occupation, when he said “prefer not to say” (the same answer as for drug use). At least he did not write the name of his law firm. We’ve greatly underestimated this upstanding professional.
I’m not sure I want the answer to this question but here goes: He asked for one or a couple. Does that mean he was up for a four-some too? Is passive observation of the sex play by one person “done”? Could that be Joe or Dylan as the voyeur? DID I JUST WRITE THIS PARAGRAPH???!!!
Gloria,
You did just write that paragraph!
I never noticed that before though, about his answer re drug use. That “prefer not to say” says a lot. For one thing, it says the answer is not “no.” No is pretty clear, either you do or don’t. Sometimes, maybe, depends, it’s illegal and I don’t want to commit to an answer says “prefer not to say.”
I agree with your analysis of the response. I don’t think Joe is just being coy.
Sometimes, I want to take the law out of chi79 :o)
In Culuket’s profile, he lists his Education: PhD/MD/Post Doctorate.
What’s with that?
No JD?
Since his many activities enjoyed included Electrotorture (EMS Tens Unit), etc., perhaps Culuket thought it might be more reassuring to the profile’s viewers that an MD was on hand (rather than a JD) in case things went South while using the eStim unit.
My guess, from looking at that profile again, is that there wasn’t a specific option for “JD” just one for higher education, which he apparently checked. Just like he’s not “lesbian” but it indicates “gay and lesbian” on the orientation line.
Makes sense Susan.
JP just picked the top line of Education.
The article, which essentially is a book review, is available on the Internet. It is in the New Yorker and is dated August 7, 2006. I found it by Googling the words, Updike, New Yorker, and Shakespeare.
The book being reviewed discusses foreboding of death in the works of musicians and authors, and its impact on their work.
I wonder if Dyl ever bought the book being reviewed.
Why was this topic of any interest to Mr. Ward, anyway? Did the massage therapist in training think that Joe may have been going to kill him, too? What impact, if any, did the murder have upon Dyl’s career choice or his (already thin) literary productivity?
With what everyone is saying about these e-mails, I think we could put together a wonderful late 40s melodrama, just switching some of the sexes, with the melodramatic put upon Joan Crawford in the Joe role, the bitchy Bette Davis as Ward, and the sweet long suffering Olivia DeHavilland as dear Victor.
But I don’t read these e-mails like that.
There are so many things we don’t know. As to Victor, I would not be surprised, considering how long they had been together as a gay couple, if he and Joe did not have an agreed “arrangement,”: do what you want, be safe, and don’t do it around me.
This is absolute pure speculation, of course, but it might explain the context of the comment about Victor being out of town.
To me, the e-mails are both sad and romantic.
Since they “could” suggest a motive for the wrongful death (although I can’t point to one — neither Joe nor Victor nor Ward were murdered), I can see why the plaintiff has a right to them and more. The price you pay when you are one of three in a house where someone is murdered and even a federal judge says there was no unknown intruder.
But if one can imagine for a very short moment that at least one of the defendants is truly not guilty of any criminal behavior (such as Victor, who I think some people on here feel may be in that category), that these and more are put out for public display, consumption and prurient speculation, must be….hard.
They just strike me in a different light than to many others on here.
That doesn’t mean anyone is right or wrong. And I can certainly agree that Joe was really stupid and not thinking when putting these on his company e-mail. But murder or cover-up from these?
I can also see that these “trees,” when put into the “forest” of the other evidence, can be cumulative and to the benefit of the plaintiff.
Whether or not relevant or admissible, I kinda don’t like to see them, and do feel that they are in some ways an invasion of privacy, subject to our prurient ruminations and all.
Not criticizing anyone who places more emphasis on them, or feel they hold the “key.” Maybe they do.
Bruce,
My only thought (for now, right?). . . when I was going through my divorce, my ex was accusing me of things I had not done.
My attorney suggested at one point opposing his RPD regarding e-mails. As an “innocent” person, my response was “he11 no”!
There were things in some of the e-mails that were “personal”, shared with best friends and relatives. Some things were a little embarrassing to think that now his attorney knows what I do when I’m alone . . . but I didn’t care. He thought I was “guilty”. I knew I was not. Had I tried to keep those e-mails — even though embarrassing — from him, it would have fueled his fire.
The innocent are willing to be embarrassed, I think.
I suggested to one of the editors earlier today that the movie for the day was “The Seven Year Itch.”
Billy Wilder.
The plot resonates. The “husband” sends the “wife” away from home, then flirts and fantasizes about the nearby tenant.
C79 – I was just teasing the itch with a Cortizone. I know the kind of itch Joe has for his burning love for DW … so near … yet so far!
My take on this is that the release of the e-mails clearly is an invasion of the defendants’ privacy, but it is one that is also clearly justified. There’s pretty obvious “probable cause” here (house-guest found dead in guest bedroom), and the defendants are refusing to co-operate with both law enforcement officials and with the widow of the victim. As far as I’m concerned, this is exactly what should be happening.
Hi Bill O:
I think we both conclude the same thing, but come at it from different angles.
Your post suggests that any invasion of defendants’ privacy is “justified” because of the seriousness of the crime, and your opinion that the defendants’ failed to co-operate with the police and Mrs. Wone.
That makes sense to me.
But,as an attorney, I look at it a little differently:
I feel that any right of privacy in this situation is not such that it in anyway outweighs the “relevancy” or “possible relevancy” of these items to potential evidence in the case that can be used by Mrs. Wone and her attorneys, under their theories of the case.
In discovery, one is entitled to get documents and information, even if you can’t use them at trial due to some legal rules, etc., as long as the items are “relevant” to the issues in the case or, more important, that they could lead to “relevant” evidence. That last bit gives a pretty wide range to the attorney collecting information and documents in discovery.
We both come to the same conclusion.
Your analysis provides its own justification.
Mine lets me agonize a little bit about it, and I do.
But I do believe that the justification for it is that those e-mails are relevant, or could lead to relevant evidence, in the Wone civil trial, and privacy rights don’t counter-balance that legitimate reason for them to be disclosed.
Bruce I agree with you the emails are difficult to read because it is someone’s private thoughts, and the emails were meant for Dylan’s and Joe’s eyes only. I could not imagine what I would do if the public were able to view and judge me by emails I sent at a time of mental/emotional desperate desperation (I even one time sent the lyrics to Hopelessly Devoted To You, oh yes including the line I know I’m just a fool who’s willing to sit around and wait for you.
But I would also like to believe that no matter how much I cared for someone I would not help to cover up a murder even an accidental murder. So Joe, Dylan and even Victor, based on the 911 call and other evidence Victor was a willing participant in the cover up, gave up their right to privacy. If they had been truthful the night August 6, 2006 then their privacy would still be intact.
Yeah it is hard because you keep asking yourself should I be reading this? The emails do present some good additional information on what may have happened and why.
… and I read:
Dylan Darling,
I am burning hot for you.
Joe
SO WHAT?
Bruce, I love your casting choices, but who would play Miss Morgan and Aunt Marcia in such a hit?
Future historians will feast upon Brook’s latest data dump, yet one hopes that more documents regarding gay male relationships from 2006 CE survive the next millenium. I would hate to have, in the year 3006 CE, the Price-Ward correspondence to reflect upon all gay men of a certain age and era in the nation’s capital.
So, Dyl was “stressed” from leaving Equality Virginia: was his departure there voluntary or otherwise? Did EV board members figure out the role of Dyl in Joe’s life, and thus had to ask both to transition out, quietly of course?
And what was he “studying?” Is that when he highlighted all those passages in S&M for Dummies?
Bingo, CD. If “Bess” refers to what Denton and Susan have uncovered, then Dyl was dutifully studying and highlighting that manual.
If only he was studying Shakespeare (and not his deathbed) instead!
Hi Clio:
I am leaning towards Zombie Margaret Hamilton (Wiz of Oz) for Aunt Marcia, and Miss Morgan is difficult….but I’ll try to be creative: Zombie Peggy Lee, but much younger and more…large.
Just saying.
No, Bruce, I was thinking more of the mature Nancy Walker for Aunt Marcia and a young Cathy Bates for Sarah, but that’s just me.
BTW, Margaret Hamilton was especially divine on Paul Lynde’s 1976 Halloween special on ABC, but seeing Paul’s other guest stars — Gene Simmons’ Kiss — do their maudlin hit, “Beth,” puts the C in Camp!
Clio, I just had to look this up.
This first link doesn’t have “Beth” but does flash to a Margaret Hamilton-looking witch and Mr. Lynde.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSzMulM3lkg
This one has “Beth”–maudlin, but kind of sweet.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lk5o_oXltQ
BTW, who was JP’s earlier BF you referenced in another post?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgZvIucz0oA
Better link for the show. I know it’s off topic, but it’s funny, kitschy, and vintage. Who couldn’t use a laugh?
That particular Halloween special is now a DVD, featuring, among others, Florence Henderson doing the Hustle up a cascading stairway while singing “That Old Black Magic” and while sporting a Dorothy Hamill ‘do. Priceless!
BTW, that One before Victor prefers to remain anonymous, of course, but he probably was/is a scientist from “the Land of Love.” Paris, though, is still not burning for Culuket, I am afraid!
Thanks, Clio. YouTube also has the F. Henderson segment. Priceless.
Speaking of Priceless, I wonder if DW is in Florida or remaining in town to work with his atty.
And if JP and VZ are no longer with Aunt M, wonder where they now reside.
I think anyone with a responsible job and a computer has been told never to commit anything to email that you don’t want made public. To nail that down even more, don’t use your bloody work computer to court your mistress, sell porn, set up porn sites, house your personal foray into erotic fetish photography, and on and on.
It’s hard to feel sympathy for someone so arrogant and yet so very stupid.
And who would use the word “feign” when writing to one’s “freak-in-the sheets”? Culuket’s “game” thus was strangely wooden, and not in a good way.
I think both Joe and Dylan like to think of themselves as non-TV watching, “feign”-using sophisticates who would only say “fuck” if they were talking to blue collar cops. Or maybe it was their safe word!
LOL! The other F bomb — feign — how seemingly appropriate that may be for these poseurs!
Well, it appears that a constant stream of overnight visitors that summer were putting a crimp into Joe’s sex plans. First, there was Needham and Di, then came Mac, and finally there was Robert. Did Joe resent Robert’s sleepover in part because it denied him yet another time to cruise and to tryst?
One very compelling thing you say is that Joe never would have known how either Victor or Dylan felt.
These communications seem pretty “normal” to me. Plenty of couples have these problems, a few in alterative relationships might try to get a little freaky – but sexually abusing someone against their will seems like a huge stretch, just from this stuff. Perhaps they were smart enough not to discuss that “plan” on email – but typically criminals aren’t assuming they’ll get caught.
This all just strengthens my idea that this wasn’t a sexual-assault gone wrwong. I think the night started normally, with no bad intention, and something went crazy after that.
You’re assuming that two or more people agreed on a plan here. It’s is entirely possible that one of the three was planning on something that night, and the other two simply weren’t part of the plan.
At some point, Mr. Wone MAY have thought of getting out of that “crazy” situation (considering he is a very intelligent and presumably a “quick thinking” person). My curiosity went something like “Has this thought ever occurred to Mr. Wone at all?” unless things happened so very quickly that there was no “one second” to escape. Just wondering ….
Denton raises a good point. I always wondered whether Robert was sleeping when – surprise – a/some visitor(s) arrived. The presence of the mouthguard has always stuck with me. As one who used one, it would be the last thing one of the last things that one would do before going to sleep. Certainly not pre-sex! Of course it could have been inserted later – but either way it certainly rebuts any notion that Robert was a willing participant. (Such notion of course has not been substantiated by a scintilla of a shred of evidence and has already been blown to smithereens by the wise contributors to this site.)
Ah yes, that old “something.” Indeed.
In the course of doing some actual legal work, I ran across some further documentation regarding discovery in the criminal case. A letter from the U. S. Attorney’s Office provided defense counsel with copies of various documents including an email from Michael Price to Victor Zaborsky dated March 20, 2007, an email string from defendants Price and Ward to Kathy Wone, letters to counsel for Sarah Morgan regarding a memory card and disposable camera, cell records for a specified phone number, and records from Verizon and T-Mobile obtained under grand jury subpoenas. This was part of the record in the criminal case in a discovery status report.
Ha! Memory card! Very interesting.
Why would Dyl be emailing Kathy? Why would Michael be emailing Victor? Why were they still using disposable cameras in 2006? This “family” continues to astonish us all!
Good questions, Clio! Maybe they also had a disposable “play mat” and other disposable “evidence.” But like you said, e-mail is forever, even if it isn’t always accessible by those who need it as evidence in a trial.
Well, from reading the e-mails, it’s fairly obvious why the defense counsel is opposing discovery here. Take, for example, Joe’s comment that once he loses interest in someone sexually, he usually doesn’t get it back. I’m guessing that Victor has been aware of this phenomenon for quite some time. I suspect he was fine with the arrangement, since I haven’t seen anything so far to indicate that Victor had any interest in sex. On the other hand, I doubt that Victor’s parents would be happy to hear about it and are likely asking questions like, “Why are you still with this douchebag?” I would imagine that there are a number of other topics for which there are similar e-mail threads.
Victor…the frozen rabbit…frozen in the spotlight…judgement clouded…allows his parents to continue to divest their savings on his behalf.
And now so well into the mire, he is all mucked up himself, this continues! Can’t very well come clean now. That would be a double edged sword…both almost ennobling, yet too shocking to the parents who stand by their son if it kills them. Allowing his parents to go through this, the agony, the long treks from out of town, the wear and tear on their health, and diminishing wealth, I don’t quite comprehend.
How is Ma’am dealing with these dropped shoes now?
Email is forever, Victor darling!
As someone who had the extremely surreal experience of standing at the door of the Courtroom talking to Victor’s parents about a week before the verdict, I can tell you that these are two people who are 200% committed to their son and his innocence. Victor’s father seemed deeply sad and exhausted to me. Victor’s mother was fiery and indignant…she was pretty much pissed at everyone – the media, the lawyers, the public at large, homophobes, and anyone who couldn’t see that her Victor was as gentle as a mouse. To hear them talk about trekking back and forth from their home in another state and trying to keep things going in both places was really heartbreaking. She was surprisingly forthcoming, but I read that as “her cup runneth over.” If I gave you a line up of people and asked you to choose Victor’s parents, you probably couldn’t do it (save for the fact that Victor favors his Dad). For all the supposed uptown snazz of their son’s lifestyle – these are two weary, older people caught in the middle of a nightmare.
I feel sorry for Victor’s parents and commented on the fact his mother was one of the few people who generously thought of Kathy Wone following the verdict. I wonder what Victor’s mom would be thinking right now if her son had been stabbed to death at Swann Street?
Wow. I continue to be impressed by the thoughtful and poignant contributions made here. Seeing Zaborsky’s parents in that courtroom every day remains a searing memory of those six weeks of the trial.
Also: Could “Bess” have been one of Ward’s instructors @ the Potomac Massage school? I just don’t recall when he was enrolled there.
That is possible, Craig, but this cryptic reference is probably NOT to Bess Truman or to her modern-day equivalent.
Joe’s pursuit of a ambivalent Dylan does explain the ease by which the Dylletante traveled to Thailand and then to Florida after the murder. He was/is so ready to get out of Dodge!
IMHO-this is the gay ‘ken and Barbi murder sceanario–i.e the canadians Karla and Paul Bernardo–the HBO movie that could be made. The narcissist can’t except rejection and will do anything for that true love to remain attach. Paul tells Karla I want your virgin sister. Karla wanting to please her king gets medication to make sister pass out but the 3 way event goes horribly off track and the sister dies on her own vomit. But of course any rational person not entrapped with love and fear of rejection would know that rape drug sceanario can never be successful
I think the thing that really jumps out at me about the e-mails between Joe and Dylan is how strikingly different they are from Joe’s description of the relationship when he talks to the police. I think Victor’s description of the relationship between the three men was probably the most accurate. Dylan really didn’t say much about the relationship at all. Joe made it sound like a rock-solid three-way relationship, albeit an unorthodox one. When he’s asked if Dylan could’ve been sexually attracted to Robert, he’s adamant that Robert isn’t Dylan’s type. When Joe is asked what Dylan’s type is, he says “me”. He comes off as though he’s either delusional or he’s flat-out lying.
The thing is, in June, JP seems resigned to being no longer attractive to DW. Three weeks later, July 9th, it seems there’s somewhat of a change in the relationship. It still seems to have some life to it. Three weeks later would have been around Aug. 2. Any chance we will see any correspondence from that time period?
Interesting point. I wonder if Dylan was just being moody, or if Joe came up with something to keep Dylan’s interest.
Anyone know who or what “Bess” is?
I also wonder about the change in job. JP got him the Equality VA job. Was it a contract position for a defined period of time and is that why he left? I’m assuming the new job was the one writing proposals. Did JP get him that job too? Maybe DW was thinking that JP wasn’t useful for him in the same way as before (re getting the E-VA job)?
I don’t really know what to make of DW. Did he accept the third-wheel arrangement because he got room and board and a job in the deal? Or is he the type that really can’t make a long-term attachment? From what S. Morgan said he wanted one, though.
Re JP and what Deb wrote about feeling sorry for him. At different times I’ve felt that about each of the three “suspects” (still suspects to many people even if not in a criminal case). In this case, my sentiment is probably the opposite, because he had the devoted spouse, the house, the job, the kids. And he wanted MORE. That suggests greed in my opinion. And he wanted more at what had to be the expense of his spouse’s feelings. I have had some muslim friends whose fathers had more than one spouse. In the two cases I know of those first wives were not happy with the new additions, despite it being an accepted part of their culture. And in our general culture, that is not a common practice.
Dylan strikes me as someone who has a short attention span. He is intelligent, but lacks focus. He attends Georgetown, ostensibly for a career as a diplomat, then goes to culinary school, travels to Thailand and elsewhere, writes books for children, and then trains as a massage therapist.
It is not surprising that no one man can hold his interest.
C79 – Obvioulsly DW likes varieties, no doubt.
Yes, and Dyl seems to like his array of men in small doses — 90 minutes and then buh-bye till the next appointment. He does apparently still “do” couples, but only from a “professional” distance.
To satisfy one’s needs/desires completely — financial, emotional, social, sexual, and household help, though, one would need at least a staff of six men — Joe as narcissist-in-chief knew this personally.
I think many people have different interests but don’t have the financial means, and/or the sense of adventure, and/or the lack of personal obligations to end one career to train for another. So it may be a lack of attention or it may just be having the financial means and lack of long-term personal obligations to be able to be a life-long student and world traveler.
So Susan, given the content and tone of these letters, did Joe kill Robert to tie both Victor and Dyl to him forever? Mr. Price might not be able to connect with either Ma’am or Sparkly Cat sexually (or emotionally) anymore, but the murder has forever enshrined the concept, if not the reality, of the “trouple”, Sarah’s coined word. And, that outcome may have been Culuket’s intent, however irrational.
Clio,
I just don’t know (like almost everyone else), but clearly he was willing to try–almost anything?–to keep DW in the pic. He said in that one e-mail that he had never been on the receiving end of someone losing attraction to him (!) so who knows what it might have driven him to. Potential rejection–what might that drive a person to do? Being a possible passive-aggressive dom (DW)–what might that drive him to do? Being a Project Runway fan and acceptor of the mistress moving in–what might that drive VZ to do? (LEAVE JP!!!) Mysteries….mysteries….Weigh in P. Dernbach, weigh in S. Morgan, weigh in PERSON WHO WRITES IN ALL CAPS WHO WAS WRONGED BY JP!
After reading the e-mails I’m thinking that Dylan had become “wilted” in more ways than one and I was thinking it might have to do with his psych meds (as someone else suggested). Maybe they took away his desire leaving the apparently uber-sexual Joe to become bottled up. I think that genie came out of the bottle with Robert’s visit and I think Joe planned the sexual assault, but it went wrong. As for why Dylan had seemed to rebound a few weeks after the e-mail, it could have been tweaking the pharmaceuticals or the promise of a promotion in the household offered by Joe.
I re-read the P. Duggan article from 2009 and it looks like DW’s job with Equality VA ended when JP’s term with E-VA ended. Here’s what the article says (for those who need a reminder and those who have never read it):
“That spring, when Price’s term as board chairman ended, Ward left the gay-rights organization and took an office job three blocks from the townhouse. With a recommendation from Equality Virginia (specifically from Price), he was hired by A.B. Data Ltd. to help solicit donations for the company’s clients, mainly progressive nonprofit groups. After work, he attended massage classes.”
Bill O – I just type “bess” on google and this is what I got…
http://www.bess-md.org/
Denton! Great find! It is a BDSM group. I googled the name and found the FAQ page (didn’t want to log on to their site!)Here’s part of what came up:
Brand New To The Lifestyle And Have Read All The Books. Now I Need To Be Around People Who Share My Interests. Can You Help?
There are several ways in which to enter the BDSM community for the first time. We recommend taking the first step by attending a munch and/or educational meeting of your local BDSM group. Munches are gatherings at local restaurants: their vanilla nature usually makes for a non-threatening introduction to other members of the BDSM community. Educational meetings of BDSM groups usually consist of more formal presentations on BDSM-related topics. The focused purpose of such a meeting may make it less threatening to some newcomers than general socialization at a munch.
If you are located close to Baltimore, we recommend that you join the Baltimore-BDSM e-mail list (http://groups.google.com/group/BDSMBaltimore), which provides information on all of the issues and events of interest to the Baltimore-BDSM community.
That would make sense. Dylan’s “interest” in BDSM has always seemed almost purely academic to me. It’s like he was more curious about it from an intellectual standpoint than as something that turned him on.
Yes, Bill O, Dyl does put studying before sex. I wonder if he working on another degree, even as we type.
His icy distance as perpetual student, though, may have also countenanced cruelty of unimaginable dimensions, inflicting both emotional and physical injury without remorse.
Oops, the second line in my post above should read: “… if he IS working on a degree, …”
so, did they finally meet this mysterious alt.com guy? any word on what happened, if they did?
Well, apparently Needham and Di’s stay “cock-blocked” this Thursday-in-July dinner date and drinks outing with alt dot bomb.
Kiss. C.
P.S. Arent Fox must be “second-tier” if their AC was not working and if Joe was “working” on a Sunday. It was a “sweatshop” literally for that desparate, aging Lothario!
“Kiss. C”
You are so funny!
Many large office buildings housing large law firms turn off their AC over a good part of the weekend to save utility costs. Sometimes, a lawyer can turn on AC for part of the floor, but the firm often requires this be billed to a client.
Sad, but true…
It seems clear from the emails, Joe thought he had all the power but the fact is that Dylan had Joe wrapped around his finger. Dylan was the man behind the curtain making what he wanted to happen.
I agree that Dylan had the upper hand in the relationship, and I think that it that must have infuriated a control freak like Joe. I think Kathy Wone said that when Joe met with her, he told her that Dylan had moved to Florida to “move on” or “get on with his life” or “put this all behind him” or something to that effect. The wording seemed very insensitive to me, because it seemed to imply that what Dylan was trying to put behind him was the murder of Robert Wone. But I don’t think that’s what Joe meant. I think what Joe meant is that Dylan was pretty much over Joe, and he moved to Florida to get away from him. And it didn’t even occur to him that the way he worded it sounded unbelievably crude, particularly to someone whose husband had just been murdered.
… I read again (from the emails),
Dylan,
I am burning hot for you!
Joe
Make that “Love, Joe” and I’m in complete agreement.
Denton and all:
Front page article today in the Chicago Tribune on the one “hold out” juror in the Blaggo case. You can find it on the paper’s website if interested. The “hold out” discusses the pressures, etc.
Dear Bruce – I am grateful for your post here. That daggon it (the “hold-out” juror in Blaggo case), I will check it out, thanks.
C79 – Yes, “Love, Joe” would be more like it. Actually, I meant to say:
Dylan, my darling…the love of my life,
My fire has been burning for you. Let’s … get … it … on! just tell me when, my darlin….
Love,
Joe
Cheers,
Denton
This isn’t personal e-mail as in some kind of interaction between two people who care for each other, or one person who cares for another. Looking at it from the standpoint of his other statements and actions in the past few years, this is nothing more than “household business” e-mail. It’s hardly different from someone trying to convince a housekeeper, dog walker, gardener, or baby sitter from moving on to another job. Price wants Ward to stay on to cater to Price’s latest whims and keep Price as the center of attention.
To Price’s college degrees we can add MM. He’s a “Master Manipulator.” He’ll say what he thinks the other person wants to hear. He’ll say whatever it takes to manipulate someone into doing his bidding. If he gets a better idea, he’ll even change an entire scenario (found Robert bleeding at the back door). Does anyone, knowing his other actions, really believe that the “Love” at the end of the e-mail is honest? It’s so easy to type those four letters when you know they have no serious meaning toward the other person.
On the other hand, it makes me think that maybe I could e-mail my lawn service guy and close with “Hot for you!” and really mean it. That would be more accurate than “Love.”
Love,
Bill 2
I bet Joe has horrible taste in music.
Just sayin’.
Hootie and the Blowfish, I’m thinking…
And fancies himself a ‘good dancer’ (picture the arms in the air as if in cheering).
Yes, imagine the gyrations on Jersey Shore … without the charm.
This is a useless exercise but an amusing one, so I’ll add that I think he had pretty conventional mainstream musical tastes. I’m sure in the 80s it was the Pet Shop Boys, Depeche Mode, Madonna, and the like. In the 90s if he was going to all those clubs, I’d bet it was techno-pop kind and repetitive dance club kind of music as a backdrop for back-room liaisons and recreation drugs, etc. I’m sure there’s some classical and jazz thrown in to show that he has eclectic tastes, whether he actually does or not.
And DW–some classical, because he prob. heard it growing up. And some dark, brooding dirge-type music to accompany his inner silence during periods of withdrawal and contemplation. And throw in some Lady Gaga for both right now.
That was an enjoyable, if useless exercise!
Well, Susan, if the trouple only had had even pretensions to appreciating the high arts, they could have all gone to a play or a concert or a musical or some cultural event that evening. Instead, weightlifting, plumbing, grilling, and then maybe killing consumed their time: that sounds pretty “straight”, if you ask me!
I’d gladly trade them to the other team. Can we do that once the season has started?
Unfortunately, you could substitute the names “Joe” and “Dylan” with many of my friends’ names – hell, even mine at some points over my life – and the pieces could fit (minus the cold-blooded murder). I can especially relate to the “losing interest” part. It has happened to many of my relationships, and to most of my friends’ What is it with so many of us gay men who are otherwise smart and articulate but have such a horrible grasp on intimate relationships? Someone please tell me.
As a straight man, I can tell you intimacy issues go both ways. 😉
The grass is always greener. That’s why I live in the desert!
Have you never heard of LBD (lesbian bed death)? Every couple has this problem, straight, gay, male, female, old, young. To think Joe never experienced someone’s losing sexual interest in him before Dylan! What an egotist.
I thought it amusing that Joe had to mention never having been the rejected one before.
I vacillate between Joe thinking Dylan IS the love-of-the-life (for then, anyway) and him just being totally manipulating to get to have his way. If we was that ‘in love’ he’d have put more effort into finding an appropriate card – Sparkly Cat totally seems like a swift decision (“This will do – I’ll just find something clever to tie it in”).
Isn’t that more like, no one has ever rejected me before so there must be something wrong with you (Dylan)?
I cannot understand the relationships by and among the trouple, let alone the supporting cast. Every time I think I may be gaining an insight (particularly after reading some of the comments here), some new information emerges and it alters the picture slightly.
Bring in the parents and it becomes even more complicated. Obviously, Victor’s parents are very supportive. Dylan also seems to be close to his parents. Both sets of parents visited. Joe’s family relationships are a cipher, although when push comes to shove, Joe does call his brother and the women in his life (Lisa and Sarah) for help.
But, Bea, Joe WAS apparently the rejected/cuckolded one in the fin-de-siecle relationship that he had had with “Madame Curie”, the One before Victor.
Mr. Price certainly likes to revise his own history: I wonder why?!
Who was/were Joe’s “permanent” partner(s) before Victor? Point us to the post or summarize, please. I cannot find it by searching. Thanks.
Joe, I believe, only had one serious relationship before Victor, and that was with a male French scientist (of similar age to Joe at that time) and only lasted a year or so. I had posted about this in the comments section in July 2009. You’ll have to scroll through that blah-blah-blah yourself to get the exact cite, as per usual, Gloria.
Joe dated men in law school to be sure, but apparently none of these dates turned into “relationships.” These Virginia gentlemen (whom I know personally) would prefer to remain anonymous, as you can imagine.
Thanks. Whoosh, that search (even being pointed to July 2009, thanks) took up my afternoon! In part, because the posts a year ago were fascinating (and SO reminiscent of the same discussions as late August 2010).
To save any one else searching the site for the answer, I found, in the July 8 blog posting, a brief mention from a short term, former AF employee (posted July 14 09): “heard through office gossip that before Victor, Joe was dating someone who cheated on him and he was just devastated. He was so happy when he met Victor because he knew he would not have to worry about that.”
Clio: Was there more? I read through all posts from July 8 to 31 and saw no mention of “French,” “scientist,” “ex lover,” etc. (It’ a trivial issue; don’t waste time on searching — only if you remember.)
The Muses hard at work! You two rock.
Thanks!
Well, Gloria, that particular post was an echo from my earlier one, about a week before. In it, I marveled at the apparent quality of the men who Culuket seemed to attract — educated at the right schools, professionals, creative, etc. And, I did mention in passing the scientist’s unusual first name, which the Editors probably and correctly censured (for legal reasons.) It was one of my very first posts, and such indiscretion (and bad analysis) would rarely happen again.
I meant to write — censored, not censured, above. We all do need Editors!
C: Oy, coy. Found the additional info towards the end of June 29 09 postings; look for Clio’s lovely aqua and white quilt avatar.
Question: About Joe’s (alleged) romantic history of one fairly brief intense relationship (the Frenchman) and then this long one with Victor. Is that pretty standard for someone (“out” gay, activist) of his age? (Forgetting the contemporaneous relationship with Dylan for now.)
Yes.
Gay men of a certain age and class tend not to divorce in part because their expectations are so low or maybe so realistic.
So many good comments.
Some part of Joe likes that Dylan is playing hard to get. That keeps Joe interested. We can see that Joe is bored with Victor but keeps him around (as someone noted) to pay bills and water plants – also seems to consider Victor an old pet who really shouldn’t be moved (I picture the sad eyed basset hound).
Dylan may well have known (if only from the books) that the only card he had to play was disinterest. He’d signed the contract to play in the minors, didn’t expect to stay there, but saw that the big league really didn’t have a place for him. So he let it be known he might be looking for a new organization with a shot at the majors.
I don’t know how Victor STILL lives with Joe – I have no doubt that Joe manufactured some strong ‘love’ for Victor (he’s no fool) once the charges dropped (and Dylan moved on).
Bea, a sad eyed Basset is too sturdy in build and temperament. I think Victor is more like a Chihuahua my mother had– stubborn as a mule, loyal to my grandmother with little use for anyone else, and given to quivering and whining at the merest suggestion of trouble. Yes, VZ will always be Pepe to me now.
Did Joe ever email his partner Victor? If so, will those emails be analyzed and digitized as well? I imagine that his sign-off for these possible electronic letters to Mr. Zaborsky was: Love, Joe.
Did Joe and Vic (before the appearance of Dyl in 2003, at least) ever consider naming their partnership — Vice, or Jove-ic, or Zaprice? We have Speidi and Brangelina, after all!
Clio: Other emails, cards? Stay tuned.
Oh, Craig, the historian in us all cannot wait! Excerpts from these correspondences must be placed in the inevitable PBS documentary, narrated by either Ken Burns or Doris Kearns Goodwin.
And dear Clio, the script would be written by none other than you — your mordant wit piercing the veneer that Team Price built to evade inspection of their real souls, if they have any at all.
David, co-ed.
Thanks, David.
From the Virgin Queen, or Good Queen “Bess,” however, comes this cautionary word of advice: “I have no desire to make windows into men’s souls.”
That was, of course, long before her very own cousin(Mary, Queen of Scots) tried to kill her! She learned … the hard way: trust but verify!
I think that Victor, besides being an income, is one of Joe’s most important props in the “upstanding citizen” (William and Mary interview) half of his double life–committed partner, father, professional, activist. I think the more stable that half of his life was, the more reckless he felt he could be with the other half.
And yes, after all this, how does Victor still live with him?
Yes, I agree that Vic was much more than an income and Greek chorus.
Let me digress a minute to show what I mean. I had a female friend who chose to marry the worst kind of snob–a label consumer, the kind who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing, if I may borrow from Oscar. My friend was chosen just as this man chose his shoes, his car, his china–with an eye to how it would enhance the picture others had of him. He may as well have ordered her from the Talbots catalog.
I think Victor was pretty much the same. He fit into the puzzle Joe was putting together to show the world he was a solid, successful gay man, at home with himself and only deserving of the best in everything. He was the trophy wife in the wrong order.
Sixdegrees & Carolina : agree with you both 100% that Joe picked Victor (as if from a catalog) to enhance/fit in with Joe’s plan of how Joe wants to portray himself. Joe clearly has issues. He only loves himself. But WHY did/does Victor and Carolina’s friend fall for this/put up with it ? Clearly, Victor has issues too. When, oh when, will Victor value himself more and kick Joe to the curb ? Do it Victor, please, for yourself (and for your mom and dad who clearly love you), ASAP.
He’s probably in too deep and had a hand in either murdering Robert or covering it up. It’s to his own selfish and depraved benefit to stick with Joe. After all, keeping their code of silence paid off in the criminal trial.
Random thoughts:
1. “not perturbed – just scared and upset” What does he think perturbed means? “Scared and upset” are much stronger emotions than being perturbed.
2. If the redacted lines (in the email about the person replying to the alt ad) involved anything that sounded like it would pertain to the murder, the lines would not have been redacted.
3. I wonder if Joe ever called Victor “love-of-my-life.” So often men use the same terms of endearment in their relationships. If so, that stung Victor even more.
Ginny, agree – think Joe wanted “not perturbed” to impart that he wasn’t angry but instead hurt and worried. It bothers me a little to think I know what he meant. . .
I have no idea why Victor isn’t livid and wounded – and ridiculously embarrassed. How does he let his parents drain their retirement when it’s clear to anyone that Joe loves/desires someone else?
Bea,
I had the same thought regarding his use of the word “perturbed.” It’s likely there was a discussion or correspondence before that in which DW hinted to J that he might be angry by what he’s about to say but he’s (DW) “just not that into” you, JP.
That reads horribly but you get the gist–he probably preceded what he said with the suggestion that JP would be angry by what he had to say, but “the thrill is gone.” Now to that thread on what type of music might be JP’s type.
To former or potential jurors (in any cases) – I search from earlier Bruce’s suggested article re: “Blagojevich Holdout Explains Vote” in the Chicago Tribune:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/ct-met-blagojevich-jury-20100827,0,1393639.story?page=1
My Comments:
I think this 67-year-old grandmother, JoAnn Chiakulas, vote was influenced by her career (a former state public health employee who retired before Blagojevich took office, a public servant hired during Gov. Jim Edgar’s administration), and her personal (ex-husband was politically active before his death, but they were divorced more than 30 years ago) background.
I am picturing myself in a divorced (when I was 30) 67 YO female, and as a juror, I would see Blaggo’s career path and his behavior as “I don’t see anything wrong with what he did, he is just a big mouth idiot, that’s all.” As far as being a “holdout” juror, “Hey, I’m a 67 YO grandma. I’ve seen it all, ain’t nothing wrong. Let him go.”
This was why I would give 1 vote to 11.
… said she did not believe he (Blaggo) or his brother committed a crime with their actions to fill Barack Obama’s Senate seat, so she would not find them guilty despite what other jurors, prosecutors and, perhaps, the general public wanted.
Chiakulas said she found Blagojevich’s recorded statements on the Senate vacancy to be so scattered and disorganized that his actions did not reach the level of a criminal conspiracy.
“Some people in (the jury room) only saw black and white,” Chiakulas said. “I think I saw, in the transcripts and in the testimony, shades of gray. To me, that means reasonable doubt.”
Oprah………Uma
Chiakulas…..Culuket
Thank you for my LOtD (laugh of the day).
Anyone have any information on when the “treasure trove” of sex toys in Dyl’s closet were purchased? If this was months before the alt dot com, then I’m guessing from Dylan’s fading affections that that had become “not enough”. Or was it purchased at the same time, meaning the BDSM was practically new and Joe was investing heavily? I assume it was over time – that they didn’t rent a truck to take to Pleasure Chest-R-Us in one afternoon for all of it. Knowledge, anyone?
Good questions, Bea. I’ll add these: Was the erotica collection dusty and full of cobwebs, or was it full of things that had never been out of their packaging?
Guessing from the Virginian gossip about Joe’s nearly-decade-old “likes” in the boudoir, I think that Dyl may have inherited some long-standing pieces from his patron, but that the bulk of the implements may have been of a more recent vintage.
In general, I can see Joe purchasing the video “Manwhore” (2001) at the Leather Rack or its suburban equivalents, but I cannot see Mr. Ward or Mr. Zaborsky even trying on a pair of jeans at those types of establishments.
Did the police ever return the rather comprehensive collection to Mr. Ward? If so, I’m sure that Needham may not be pleased about paying for a storage unit for things that will never be used. If not, did their BDSM expert test-drive the materials?
Why are you assuming the “collection” will never be used (by Dylan), once returned to him as evidence no longer needed?
Gloria, I guess that Dyl never really got into the BDSM stuff. Even at 40, he may love to give sensual or even erotic massages, but he only played the sadist/daddy/top role for Joe and, as the letters show, it wasn’t turning him on.
Now, maybe Mr. Ward might still bring out the Joyrider rim seat from the collection on occasion, but that would be only to provide a little grace note of zest for his latest beaux.
Is it crazy to think DW was possibly doing the BDSM thing for $$$??
I can’t imagine evidence would be released while there is an ongoing murder investigation.
I would imagine most of their equipment was purchased via the internet. It sounds like what they had was above and beyond the typical stock of the Pleasure Chest. Unless there was a feather boa thrown in the inventory. The Leather Rack is the other local option. LR is a geared toward the gay male experience. PC is heavily influenced by the female experience. Wonder if JR’s Stockyard was bookmarked as “a favorite” on Joe or Dylan’s computers.
At the Leather Rack, CD, patrons can have their harnesses and chaps custom-fitted: I wonder if our Dynamic Duo took advantage of these personalized alt-eration services. If so, the Connecticut Avenue store may have relevant purchasing records for Covington to ponder.
If so, I hope they fit better than Joe’s shirts. They’re *called* chaps, but they’re not supposed to…
‘Wonder if JR’s Stockyard was bookmarked as “a favorite” on Joe or Dylan’s computers.’
When you say JR’s Stockyard, are you really referring to ‘An award-winning, fine dining steakhouse’ or what?
Should I book reservations immediately?
Somebody really needs to setup a glossary of terms for those of us here on the sidelines.
Big, I am so laughing at myself at the moment. It’s JT’s Stockroom! ROFL! Oh, the mind and a keyboard can play tricks on the well-intentioned.
Oh, how convenient to have such a website in operation! Was JT’s Stockroom in business during the Bush years, CD?
I wonder how often JP/DW/VZ visited dupont circle’s Lambda Rising before the store was closed, and whether Deacon Maccubbin, Lambda Rising’s founder and co-owner, ever talked to them?
http://www.lambdarising.com/
Deacon and his long-time partner were strong supporters of Virginians for Justice in the 1990s and then, of course, the Equality Virginia (EV) of Dyana Mason, Joseph Ray Price, and Dylan Michael Ward of the early twenty-first century. So, at the first Commonwealth dinners in Richmond, put on by EV and partially organized by Dyl, I’m sure that they all said hello to each other: perhaps, Sarah snapped a picture with them all in it (with or without Julian Bond or Lt. Gov. Kaine), alongside the silent auction items.
Long-time gossips did have Deacon and his partner open to participating in all aspects of gay male sexuality, including BDSM, but, even if this scuttlebutt was true, one might guess that they would have preferred to play with more experienced and attractive individuals than either the increasingly frustrated Mr. Price and his ambivalent ingenue Mr. Ward.
We heard a story once about Ward possibly going to work at Lambda Rising, perhaps after his engagement at EV, but nothing ever came from it.
And as previously mentioned, we’ve seen party photos from one of those EV dinners. The entire household was there: Price, Zaborsky, Ward, and Morgan. Robert and Kathy too were in some of the shots. Heartbreaking.
Denton,
See this page on this site:
https://whomurderedrobertwone.com/2009/08/19/gay-ink/
Clio and Susan – Wow! Thanks for walking me to revisit this road of WMRW and about Deacon (who did not say much about the 3Swann). You guys/girls sure have been around, just teasin…. You know, I was born Asian and I can’t think of anyone who would stab me if I just want to spend a night unless they really hate me or has an agenda AND I can’t run fast enough to get out.
Does anyone know about nervous breakdowns? I suppose any of us could wiki it, but I’m wondering if there are any with professional or first hand knowledge reading?
What are the signs? What are the triggers? Is it likely/unlikely that any of the 3 would have one as they proceed through the civil trial?
Dear Historians and Analysts:
I would very much like to “group-think” the pamphlets Joe left on the counter re: Robert’s “IP” problem at work.
Bea, don’t you do IP work? Would AF actually produce pamphlets, or would this be something produced specifically for a prospective client?
Clio, you probably can pinpoint the exact archive in Joe’s transcript where he mentions the pamphlets and the planned breakfast.
Also, does anyone know Joe professionally?
Yes, it’s just another overlooked point of interest, but let’s start going through them one by one. Everyone is hip to the grill, I’m just throwing out the one that bugs me the most.
Deb, I know many have speculated that this may have been a ‘spark’ for anger on Joe’s part if Robert refused to hire him/AF, but truly I don’t think so. RFA would not have been a significant ‘get’ as a client. Have done some materials drawn up would have been just a few keystrokes worth of work on Joe’s part – we all have that new-client-ready stuff for what we call the “dog and pony show” for selling our firm to new clients.
The ONLY way this could have had an impact is if it was “personal”. That Joe was irked that Robert wouldn’t have just given him the work because of their long-standing relationship. And that was to be discussed the following morning. So, narrowing it down, the way I could see it coming into play is only if “over water” Joe mentioned/pointed to the materials that he wanted to discuss with Robert the next morning and Robert said “oh, forgot to tell you that we already hired XYZ firm for that.” Alone, it wouldn’t have been an impetus or catalyst, but if things were a ‘brewing then possibly yet one more slap in the face.
The slap in the face is pretty much the feeling I get.
Do we know what Joe’s new business was preceding Aug 2 2006? Did he need clients? Even a “pays-the-bills” client like RFA?
Also, I work for a sole practitioner, so I’m not sure of the expectations of partners bringing on new business.
Help?
Deb – I would imagine “chronic anxiety” would probably be just as “hellish” as the nervous breakdowns.
Bea – I think it was more of “personal” issue. Could it be the two tigers can not live in a same den?
I am not a lawyer, historian, analyst, or psychiatrist.
My comment (from reading chilaw79, Bill O, and Deb cut/paste below):
The “known intruder(s) theory through front door” was so close to my thoughts now because the 3Swann kept mentioning it to people. How many? One, or two (alt.com, JP’s brother, and/or the neighbor). They came and left (through front door) with the bloody towel(s) and/or drug. JP was left to execute the 3rd stab (while VZ went upstairs to call 911) and took it out from the body to leave on a nighstand, kept the body and the room tidy until 911 arrived.
I cut/paste and read from:
chilaw79 on 08/27/2010 at 11:37 AM
. . . Occasionally, I wonder if Joe was putting forth all the information about Dylan and Michael in his interviews on purpose.
Bill Orange on 08/28/2010 at 11:20 AM
I’m not sure if he did it consciously or unconsciously, but I think his goal in the interviews was to seem like he was being forthcoming about embarrassing details when, in fact, he was withholding key information. He mentions Michael’s history of drug use, but withholds the facts that Michael lived in the area, had keys and access codes to the house, and had been in contact with Joe in the hours before the murder. He mentions Dylan’s antidepressant use (and thus his history of psychiatric disease), but fails to mention that he and Dylan had been trolling for tricks (i.e., potential suspects) on alt.com.
One of the big reasons I think that these guys are guilty is that they never seem to consider the possibility that this could’ve been done by someone they knew. It’s not the drug-using brother. It’s not one of the contractors. It’s not a former trick who had cased the house. It’s someone unknown. Or maybe the homeless black guy. That’s a big “tell” to me. Joe Price is extremely intelligent and extremely vindictive. I think that if someone had murdered someone in his house, and he didn’t know who the killer was, he would have devoted himself to finding out. Instead, he devoted himself to his own legal defense. The only reason I can think of for him to sit around and NOT organize a massive manhunt for the “real” killer is that he already knows who the “real” killer is.
Deb on 08/28/2010 at 4:37 PM
ChiLaw:
When was the first time you ever read this blog? What were you initial thoughts? Do you remember? Have they evolved?
Mine sure have.
. . .
My impetus is I personally suspected Dylan first . . . now not at all.
chilaw79 on 08/28/2010 at 7:31 PM
. . . I have not made up my mind about who murdered Robert Wone, although I am convinced the defendants know more than they told the police. I do think whoever murdered Robert either was in the house or came in through the front door with a key and was not an unknown intruder who entered through the back door.
The idea is keep thinking. Thanks for helping it along.
Murder will out.
Didn’t RFA have someone already on retainer for IP? I feel sure I read this.
There was someone doing their trademark registration work (outside counsel) at the time, and that firm kept doing the work after.
The major DC law firms produce a variety of marketing materials. Joe would have ready access to these. The marketing department of the firm would provide support in seeking new clients, gathering information and the like, but it would be nothing like the inside scoop that Robert would be able to provide to Joe. However, since Robert had been at Radio Free Asia only a couple of weeks (literally), I am not sure Robert would be in a position to move any business absent a compelling reason to do so.
Young partners are very much encourage to develop business and partner compensation is inextricably tied to the development of clients. Many young professionals on the rise look to their college classmates and other contacts for business development. Having a friend who is a general counsel at RFA would be a useful contact.
I do not know Joe Price personally.
Indeed, most firms maintain marketing or business development departments staffed by a mix of marketing professionals, designers, database coordinators, researchers and (ahem) former practcing lawyers. They usually have a number of canned glossy pieces, such as an intellectual property brochure, at the ready but can also develop customized pitches with a little advance notice.Sometimes significant work goes into these on the part of both the markters and lawyers.
As I understand it, the integrity of the RFA brand was being threatened online (presumably by hackers working on behalf of enemies of freedom in Asia). Joe was planning to pitch brand protection services to Robert — the GC of a potential client is usually the primary target of pitches as they are often the gatekeeper for outside counsel.
My guess is that Joe had a nice folder prepared with a mix of canned and custom material prepared for Robert. One of the most typical requests we, I mean legal marketing professionals, get is from lawyers who are having lunch or dinner with an old acquaintence who is a new GC at x corp and want something to pass along to see if they can get their foot in the door with a bit of new business.
Some research of public filings I conducted some months ago indicated that RFA employed yet another W&M alum for prior trademark filings and that the same lawyer made new filings on behalf of RFA, possibly related to the brand protection issue, several months after Robert’s murder.
The inference would be that RFA already had outside counsel and that they stuck with that counsel going forward. We’ll never know if Robert would have switched from one W&M lawyer to another, Joe, or not had he lived.
Can’t help but think Joe’s comment about how he had materials prepared for an August 3rd breakfast meeting was just Joe trying to demonstrate there were morning plans, so the murder could not have been planned.
AF would have any custom materials prepared on file — it is required for conflict and professional liability reasons. On the other hand, if it was just a folder thrown together with existing materials, then it is probably not on file.
The materials were referenced in discovery documents in the criminal case, which is when they first came to my attention on this site (before the interview transcript in which they are mentioned was posted) — I don’t recall if they were actually produced.
So there may be proof that this wasn’t just a story.
“Blagojevich jury’s advice: Keep it simple,” By Bob Secter and Stacy St. Clair, Tribune reporters – August 28, 2010
. . . Prosecutors should present their evidence in a more organized fashion, Chiakulas said, rather than rely on a dozen laypeople to sort out a mountain of it for themselves.
“If you dumb it down too far, there’s a danger that jurors will convict on not the right evidence,” said Bertocchi. “On the other hand, the jury may also say, ‘We don’t get it.'”
James Matsumoto, the jury foreman, said the prosecution case was generally strong but hobbled by the kitchen-sink nature of charges that he suggested be streamlined.
“Their shotgun approach — in hopes of hitting something, they use a large-bore shotgun instead of finessing it with maybe an arrow — makes it harder on the jury,” said Matsumoto.
He also had some style tips for prosecutors, complaining that one of them tried his patience by overusing phrases such as “What’s your understanding of this?” and that another kept his arms crossed during his closing argument.
“The body language was ‘I’m closing you out,'” said Matsumoto, noting that Blagojevich’s lawyer, Sam Adam Jr., connected with jurors by moving physically closer to them.
As a matter of strategy, one thing Matsumoto wouldn’t change in a second trial is the decision by the defense not to put Blagojevich on the stand.
“It would probably be easier to convict him if he did testify,” said Matsumoto. “…No matter what he says, it would just be a terrible mistake. Who knows what he would do? He’s done some crazy things. His version of the truth has really stretched the limit.”
What can we take out from the above Blaggo’s trial that we can apply “particularly on juror’s selection” of WMRW?
Any comments?
Yes.
We really are a nation of morons.
… and I’m very concern about DC jurors by nature of the transient population itself, the interests, and the degree of commitments. Jury trial is a gamble thereof.