Acquittal

But Not Exoneration

It took a sober and, at times soft-spoken, Judge Leibovtiz little more than an hour to plow through what she termed “…a very long and complicated legal trial.”  We have previously posted, and will post here again, Judge Leibovitz’ verdict in its entirety.

Because the story of today may not be just in the acquittal, but in the suggestions of guilt.

The hour long recitation of findings and conclusions swung like a pendulum – finding first strong merits in the government’s argument, then the defense.  It was like standing on the edge of the ocean while the ocean rolls in, then out.

Early on, however, there were signs that things weren’t going the prosecution’s way.  Among Leibovitz very first findings were that sometime “….between 11:08 and 11:49…” Robert Wone was stabbed.  This seemed a suggestion that the Judge was not persuaded by the government that the defendants were lying about the time line, and that Robert could have been stabbed just about the time of Victors 9-1-1 call.  Later, she returned to this point, noting that the government itself in closing statement admitted to not knowing with certainty what was happening when in the house.

She turned to definitions of “beyond reasonable doubt” and the various legal standards of proof – notably that in criminal trials.  Noting a turn from early use of “moral certainty” in U.S. legal proceedings, she noted the current standard she must follow is “evidentiary” certainty.  “This case has been a…test of reasonable doubt…” she noted from the bench.

Turning to the elements of each charge the prosecution needed to prove “…beyond a reasonable doubt…”, the judge detailed the specifics of obstruction, conspiracy and evidence tampering.  Crucial to each was demonstrating intent – specific intent to deceive, mislead, impede or undermine an official investigation.  Turning through each, a sense grew in the courtroom that the government had not proven this element in their case.

“I’m persuaded the murder was not committed by an intruder unknown to the defendants,” Leibovitz began, turning again to specific findings of fact.  Robert Wone was “…entirely immobile…” at the time of his murder.  The knife found on the scene, she said – noting testimony from Dr. Henry Lee – was “…used to commit the stabbing…” of Robert.  This replacement of the knife was an important element of the prosecutions case, she said, and they had not proven it.

“It is very likely Mr. Price pulled the knife from the victim’s chest,” she continuted, noting that he may well have tampered with the knife but she couldn’t conclude it beyond reasonable doubt.  Further, she couldn’t conclude that Price wiped Robert’s body, “…although it’s probable.”

She then turned her sights on the defendants.

“From the beginning, each one of them – Mr. Zaborsky included – displayed a demeanor wholly at odds with what anyone would expect from an innocent person who’s friend had just been murdered tragically and violently…” going on to characterize their response “dischordantly.”  defendant’s behavior was wholly at odds with normal human behavior…” adding that she found all of them acted “dischordantly” with just having found a friend murdered in their home.

Joe Price was “…arrogant, unconcerned, flippant, aggressive, self-centered and dismissive.  Mr. Zaborsky was hystrionic and tearful, but entirely passive and apparently unmotivated to help detectives…” noting his 9-1-1 statements were “…at best eyebrow-raising, and at worse calculated.

Mr. Ward was from the start distant and detached, unmoved, patient and calm.  He also was apparently unmotivated to help police solve this terrible crime.  Of which, had it truly had been done by an intruder, he could easily have been the victim.”

That said, one can only judge a person’s knowledge and intent so far by demeanor.  Another sign things of things to come.

The decisions came next, although they did not come as a surprise at this point.  Even though the judge found the intruder theory implausible (“Overall, the defendant’s story that an intruder committed the offense is incredible beyond a reasonable doubt” she said), even though the judge found it likely one or more of the defendants knew who murdered Robert Wone and/or covered it up, even though it was “…very probable the government’s theory is correct,” none of this was enough to clear the high hurdle of beyond a reasonable doubt.

Again raising the difference between moral and evidentiary certainty – in what sounded and reads like a tip to her understanding of what actually happened – she still was encountering what she termed “the math problem”: in short, a sense that while two of the three may well have been proven guilty of the charges brought, there was still a reasonable possibility that one was “…the odd man out.”  And given there being no way to determine who might be the odd man, she was forced to acquit all three defendants on all seven charges.

Citing Sir William Blackstone, she employed his famous axiom: “Better that 10 guilty persons escape than one innocent suffer.”

Judge Leibovitz apologized to the Wone family and their supporters, noting the appropriate legal findings in this case on evidentiary certainty were of “cold comfort.”

For their part the defendants reacted little – Victor shedding a tear toward the end, but Joe and Dylan remaining largely stoic.  Their families, too, seemed to evidence little joy in the verdict.  Members of the Wone family appeared genuinely distraught.  The media swarm gathered turned and looked at each other as if to say “Innocent?  Really?

No, not really.  Acquittal is not not guilty; not guilty means merely not proven.  Judge Leibovitz’ own words offer strong testimony to her understanding of this distinction.

The defendants left quickly; Bernie Grimm and the prosecution team spoke with members of the media.

Last note: we asked a member of the Covington & Burling legal team assigned to the civil case when that would begin.  “45 days?” we asked.  “No, it starts this afternoon.”

Price counsel Bernie Grimm speaks to the press

AUSA Glenn Kirschner speaks to the press

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cat
cat
14 years ago

Editors: Thanks for another terrific reporting job today.

Wulfila
Wulfila
14 years ago

A very sad day for Kathy and Robert’s family. I do understand the judge’s points, and though she was unable to find them guilty of these charges based on such a high standard, it’s quite obvious she feels they are guilty none-the-less. In fact, it’s pretty damning. Any reasonable person would. I also agree that such a system makes it less likely that an innocent person would be found guilty, but that leaves me with little solace at the moment. The one thing I do take solace in is that the defendants will still have to live with themselves and what they did every day for the rest of their lives, and I have no doubt that Kathy will prevail in her civil suit (though they’ll always have their FL home, OJ-style). I do hope that one day true justice will be meted out in this case.

john
john
14 years ago
Reply to  Wulfila

These men were never charged with murder. Why do you speak as if they killed someone, and will have to live with that guilt?

Mount Holly
Mount Holly
14 years ago

Condolences to Robert’s family and friends.

Thanks to the Editors.

Hope for eventual justice.

Much admiration for Robert, who remains an inspiration and an example of how we should all strive to live.

Lee
Lee
14 years ago

Watch Rachel Carlson Lieber as Glenn Kirschner responds to the media.

Ludmilla
Ludmilla
14 years ago
Reply to  Lee

She does not look pleased. It looks as if she rolls her eyes at a couple of points.

Nelly
14 years ago
Reply to  Ludmilla

I also feel sorry for Patrick Martin. He looks like he is about to cry. This is horrible for all involved.

proudpapa
proudpapa
14 years ago
Reply to  Lee

Very sad, to these old eyes. (But at least I got to see my daughter, who will have another and better day!)

cinnamon
cinnamon
14 years ago
Reply to  proudpapa

She did her best with what evidence they had.

Bill Orange
Bill Orange
14 years ago
Reply to  cinnamon

Agree. She was definitely the standout, and she did a phenomenal job with what she was given to work with. You have much to be proud of.

Lee
Lee
14 years ago
Reply to  proudpapa

I think your daughter did an excellent job with what she had. Kirschner was captaining the prosecution. Rachel had to follow his lead.

proudpapa
proudpapa
14 years ago
Reply to  Lee

To be clear:

I meant to contrast my sadness with that of Mr. and Mrs. Wone, who will not get to see their son.

Also, I know of no reason to suppose that if my daughter had captained the prosecution, the outcome would have been different.

Kate
Kate
14 years ago
Reply to  proudpapa

Be proud, sir. Your daughter did a fine and stand up job.

And may God hold Robert’s family close in His loving arms as they prepare for the future.

Regards,
Kate

proudpapa
proudpapa
14 years ago
Reply to  Kate

Amen to that.

David
Admin
14 years ago
Reply to  proudpapa

Proudpapa,

You raised an individual I only wish I could be half as accomplished as she is. Her future is bright, and it wouldn’t have happened without the steadfast parenting she received in her formative years. I am stunned at your accomplishment.

David, co-ed.

weaver
weaver
14 years ago

The problem is the prosecution brought the wrong charges. It should have been murder. No disputing a murdered man in that home.

I sincerely hope murder charges are in the not so distant future.

cjh78
cjh78
14 years ago
Reply to  weaver

What evidence to convict on murder? Please enlighten us.

The government couldn’t convict on obstruction and tampering, yet you want a murder trial. Yes, it’s clear that these guys were involved, but our legal system requires evidence beyond a reasonable doubt.

Let’s be rational and not emotional.

weaver
weaver
14 years ago
Reply to  cjh78

What evidence? How about Mr. Wone’s stabbed body?

Was the judge allowed to consider THAT evidence? No, she was not for the purpose of THIS trial, because it wasn’t a MURDER trial.

What she did conclude was NO INTRUDER. Robert Wone didn’t stab himself. Only the defendants were present.

Accessory to murder: Aiding or contributing in a secondary way or assisting in or contributing to as a subordinate.

In Criminal Law, contributing to or aiding in the commission of a crime. One who, without being present at the commission of an offense, becomes guilty of such offense, not as a chief actor, but as a participant, as by command, advice, instigation, or concealment; either before or after the fact or commission. One who aids, abets, commands, or counsels another in the commission of a crime.

Bring on the murder trial!

Goose
Goose
14 years ago
Reply to  weaver

You really shouldn’t be quoting the law. I’m sorry to be so frank, but you have no clue what you are talking about.

No one can prove WHO exactly killed Robert Wone. Bringing this case forward would be irresponsible. If the prosecution got an indictment and could go forward with a trial, jeopardy would attach, and the defendants would be undoubtedly acquitted for the exact problem presented in this case – the crime cannot be proven as to one, two, or all defendants beyond a reasonable doubt. They could never be retried on this issue. What a travesty that would be if over time, new evidence revealed itself.

There is a theory in torts (civil law) called “res ipsa loquitor” – meaning, the thing speaks for itself. This essentially means that elements of negligence can be proven by the very nature of the accident without proof of the defendant’s behavior. No such theory is allowed in criminal law for the very reason that people’s lives and liberties are at stake. You want to prosecute on a civil theory. It is not possible.

chilaw79
chilaw79
14 years ago
Reply to  weaver

As much as I might like to see a murder charge against someone for the murder of Robert Wone, I do not want to see the prosecutors bring a murder charge until the prosecutors believe they have the evidence they need to convict.

There is no statute of limitations and no reason to hurry. The civil case can now proceed and there is likely to be additional evidence that is brought to bear.

Watching the local DC television coverage of the defendants, they are not going to talk. They were rather studious in their observation of total silence, not even a “no comment.”

She did it
She did it
14 years ago
Reply to  weaver

against which one? the government couldn’t prove the easy charges (tampering/obstruction), how the heck can it prove murder with the work product of the police department and the now known quality of its witnesses? the math problem of this judge applies to murder charges too.

Bill
Bill
14 years ago

Editors stated: “Because the story of today may not be just in the acquittal, but in the suggestions of guilt.” Are you nuts???? Today’s story was ALL ABOUT the verdict and all three defendants were found NOT GUILTY. Your bias is just so obvious. It’s really shameful.

Phil
Phil
14 years ago
Reply to  Bill

Did you read the judge’s ruling?

Bill
Bill
14 years ago
Reply to  Phil

Of course I did. Do you understand that all three defendants walked out free men today? Do you? Certainly the prosecution did.

Phil
Phil
14 years ago
Reply to  Bill

But she clearly thinks they are guilty of the underlying murder!!!! (At least 1 or 2 of them.) Do you understand this? Do you?

Bill
Bill
14 years ago
Reply to  Phil

It wasn’t a murder trail – got it?

Phil
Phil
14 years ago
Reply to  Bill

The judge said she thinks they did it – got it?

Bill
Bill
14 years ago
Reply to  Phil

That is not correct.

What she stated was: “The government has thus presented powerful evidence to support its claim that Robert Wone’s murderer was either one of the defendants, or someone known to them who was able to enter without breaking (p. 21).” However she did not find on this issue since it was not a charge nor did the prosecution or defense argue this crime.

You just can’t make this stuff up for your own purpose.

Phil
Phil
14 years ago
Reply to  Bill

I fail to see how this disproves my point.

They weren’t on trial for murder, so she didn’t make a specific finding that they were the murders. (duh!)

But in finding that there was no intruder, she said they did it. (Or are you asserting that it was the person they let in?)

Bill
Bill
14 years ago
Reply to  Phil

Found on p. 37 of the Judge’s statement: “Based on the foregoing, I find Joseph Price, Dylan Ward and Victor Zaborsky each not guilty of the offenses of obstruction of justice and conspiracy to obstruct justice. I find Joseph Price not guilty of the offense of tampering with evidence.”

Notice “not guilty”?

Phil
Phil
14 years ago
Reply to  Bill

sigh.

you win.

Carolina
Carolina
14 years ago
Reply to  Bill

Try hard to be less of a dick. I know, it’s hard. Try, though.

Bill
Bill
14 years ago
Reply to  Carolina

That’s vulgar name calling and I will bring it to the attention of the editors. But, not surprising.

Daphne
Daphne
14 years ago
Reply to  Phil

The judge said she was “morally certain” of the defendants’guilt but its “evidentiary certainty” that is required.

CDinDC (Boycott BP)
CDinDC (Boycott BP)
14 years ago
Reply to  Bill

Bill, dear, did you read any of the Judge’s decision? Here are a few nuggets for you to enjoy…if these aren’t SUGGESTIONS OF GUILT, I don’t know what is.

Judge Leibowitz says:
“The circumstances of the commission of the murder itself are inconsistent with the defense position that an intruder killed Mr. Wone.”

“However, although I am satisfied that an intruder did not commit the murder, this is not the only issue before me.”

Bill
Bill
14 years ago

Do you understand that the judge found them not guilty for the crimes they stood trial for? NOT GULTY. They get to go home.

The government didn’t meet their burden of proof — pure and simple. Also, while her comments were interesting, they have no baring on the final disposition of this case since double jeopardy attaches for what they were tried for. Not hard to understand, but probably a very bitter pill for you and many others. Do you get that the government LOST?

CDinDC (Boycott BP)
CDinDC (Boycott BP)
14 years ago
Reply to  Bill

Bill says: “NOT GULTY. They get to go home.”

No kidding, Bill

And by the way, this isn’t a game. The defense didn’t win and the government didn’t lose. There was a judgement by the Court (whether fair or unfair, whether just or unjust, but nobody WON or LOST.

But, Bill, whether you like it or not, the Judge did, indeed, strongly suggest the defendants are guilty of murder. So their “win” is merely an albatross that will follow them around wherever they go.

Bill
Bill
14 years ago

Well, if you don’t think that one side lost and the other won, then you are nuts. And again, it wasn’t a murder trail.

You people are just de-compensating because so many were certain that you totally understand the presentation of facts as made at trial and that they would be found not guilty. They weren’t.

CDinDC (Boycott BP)
CDinDC (Boycott BP)
14 years ago
Reply to  Bill

rolling my eyes

Wulfila
Wulfila
14 years ago

Let’s all encourage Bill to have a sleep-over at his friends’ place.

Bill
Bill
14 years ago
Reply to  Wulfila

Sarcasm is the last haven of those who cannot reason.

Lee
Lee
14 years ago
Reply to  Bill

I thought that quoting aphorisms was the last refuge.

Sandra Renee Hicks
Sandra Renee Hicks
14 years ago
Reply to  Bill

BE NOT DISCOURAGED -THE FINAL VERDICTS SHALL BE RENDERED BY THE SUPREME JUDGE GOD!

Repost:

Sandra Renee Hicks on 06/28/2010 at 9:24 PM

Greetings –
Whatever occurs tomorrow in the courtroom of the Honorable
judge – it is complete truth that the Supreme JUDGE – GOD
will render His verdict – no guessing there.

It is in the best interest of the defendants to come clean because the judge in courtroom 310 shall not render their FINAL verdicts.

The blood of Robert Wone cries out for justice.

His blood shall be avenged!
Believe that GOD is furious at the murder, the cover-up, the
stonewalling,and the utter viciousness of the crime.

DYLAN and JOE…They need to confess…judgment day is real….

Spike
Spike
14 years ago

Then maybe God should’ve done something abou t it. Jesus Christ.

cinnamon
cinnamon
14 years ago
Reply to  Wulfila

Yes, I wonder how many of those that are so sure of their innocence would send their children to spend the night.

Eagle
Eagle
14 years ago

The three defendants are not really “free”.
A very large number of people who used to be important to these fellows are not convinced they are innocent. Each of them will have to live with these individual judgments by ordinary people for the rest of their lives or until someone is found guilty of murdering Robert Wone.

DD
DD
14 years ago
Reply to  Bill

There’s no double jeopardy for murder. These guys would have preferred the sentence for today’s dismissed charges over all the time they are going to get in the slammer when they are found GUILTY of murder. They won’t be walking free on the day of that verdict. The judge didn’t buy the intruder theory, and the next judge won’t buy it either. Too bad there wasn’t a jury of their “peers”. Oh yeah, not that many threesomes in DC who murder their friends.

anonymous
anonymous
14 years ago
Reply to  DD

I think you mean that there is no statute of limitations for murder. Double jeopardy absolutely attaches to a murder charge, but there was no murder charge here.

DD
DD
14 years ago
Reply to  anonymous

No, I meant that double jeopardy attached only to the charges for which they were acquitted and they can still be charged for murder. Of course one can’t be charged with murder after being acquitted of it. And yes, that potential can follow them for the rest of their lives.

CDinDC (Boycott BP)
CDinDC (Boycott BP)
14 years ago
Reply to  DD

And there’s plenty of evidence that was not used in the conspiracy trial that can be used in the murder trial.

Carolina
Carolina
14 years ago
Reply to  DD

There’s not going to be a murder trial. But that civil show is going to be grand.

SaraSidle
SaraSidle
14 years ago
Reply to  Bill

I would say your lack of reading comprehension skills is shameful. So by all means, STFU.

CDinDC (Boycott BP)
CDinDC (Boycott BP)
14 years ago
Reply to  SaraSidle

How I love you so. :>

mia
mia
14 years ago
Reply to  Bill

Yes, they’re as innocent as O.J.Simpson.

Mad in Philly
Mad in Philly
14 years ago

As an attorney- though not one who practices criminal law- I find the judge’s decision maddening. She concedes that the evidence convinced her, particularly that Mr. Price did what the Government charged him with, yet she somehow acquits the defendants because she felt the Government’s case didn’t meet the reasonable doubt standard. I have heard many a juror justify an acquittal on those grounds, but to read such illogic from a sitting judge is mind-blowing. Also, in the decision, the judge seems to want to let everyone know that while she is acquitting, she is not stupid and of course realized the defendants conspired to cover up one if not all of their participation in/knowledge of the murder. She wants to have her cake and eat it, too. I hope the family prevails in the civil case, and I really hope that Mr. Zaborsky finally caves in and confesses to what really happened that night. If I were he, I wouldn’t feel safe sleeping under the same roof with those two.

Jo
Jo
14 years ago
Reply to  Mad in Philly

I hear you. Don’t understand the legal BS. How can she believe beyond a reasonable doubt that the intruder theory was false and not find the defendants guilty? If there was no intruder, then one or all of them killed Robert. Since they all insist on the intruder story and refuse to talk or offer additional information to help solve the murder, common sense suggests that they are all guilty of obstruction of justice.

She can’t acquit and still pretend to be a reasonable person with common sense. Shame on her for putting the victims’ family through such injustice and anguish.

She did it
She did it
14 years ago
Reply to  Jo

why not shame on the MPD who screwed up royally; or shame on the prosecution for delivering a number 2 to the courtroom for the first three weeks of trial?

Bill
Bill
14 years ago
Reply to  She did it

I agree with you. Put the blame where it belongs — particularly with the MPD.

mia
mia
14 years ago
Reply to  Jo

I’m not a lawyer but my understanding is she believes that the murder was committed by one or two or all of the three men, but she can not decide who actually did it based on the evidence. So she gives them the benefit of doubt.

Daphne
Daphne
14 years ago
Reply to  mia

Which is her obligation. And, btw, I’m hugely disappointed in the verdict, but as a lawyer (and former public defender, I call “legal bs” “due process of law.”

Bill
Bill
14 years ago
Reply to  mia

She can’t decide murder b/c it was a charge that the defendants stood trial for.

Goose
Goose
14 years ago
Reply to  Mad in Philly

I did not quite understand the judge’s findings that 1) Michael Price was not the murderer; 2) an intruder was not the murderer; and 3) at least one of them knew who the murderer was; but 4) she could not deduce Price’s intent in telling multiple stories to government officials.

I understand the “math” issue she has – and this is why none of the defendants was ever prosecuted for murder – but as to Price, I was really surprised about her findings on obstruction. The rest of the charges were not proven BARD, in my opinion, because I do find it within reason that Price might have wiped blood or pulled the knife out of Wone’s chest without the intent to cover up a murder.

I think she was a unreasonable as to obstruction with Price because she believed intent was not proven BARD. Although her findings above strongly indicated to me (even BARD) that intent was clear.

Steve
Steve
14 years ago
Reply to  Mad in Philly

I know – but let’s face it, a lot of these judges are as crazy as any juror. I’ve heard so much ludicrous BS from superior court judges that my faith in the jury system, if you can call it that, has been renewed.

weaver
weaver
14 years ago
Reply to  Steve

Mine too.

Something I never thought I would say until now.

Bill
Bill
14 years ago
Reply to  Steve

This is just sour grapes. EVERYONE praised Judge Leibovitz as an outstanding jurist until her verdict. You just can’t have it both ways.

DD
DD
14 years ago
Reply to  Bill

Yes we can. We can vote for Obama and praise him, and disagree with his position on offshore drilling. We can also previously praise the judge and now disagree with her ruling. That’s what humans with brains do. Too bad you don’t have one.

Bill
Bill
14 years ago
Reply to  DD

Typical – insults and non sequiturs

Carolina
Carolina
14 years ago
Reply to  Bill

Bill, I’m sorry, but you are the one with venom. You’re sadly slipping from voice of opposition to troll.

I understand your desire to gloat. It’s fine; everyone has their faults. But jesus, don’t you suppose this is a bit off the mark?

Bill
Bill
14 years ago
Reply to  Carolina

Really – you need to carefully review your posts of the last two weeks – particularly last weekend. You were vicious and salivating for them to end up in prison. Thankfully, the judge went by the evidence presented at the trial.

cinnamon
cinnamon
14 years ago
Reply to  Bill

My respect for the judge is still there.
This part especially…
“Despite the many suspicious and even damning circumstances, despite the implausibility of the intruder story, and despite the discordant and inappropriate demeanor and conduct of the defendants, I am constrained to conclude that the government has not eliminated, beyond a reasonable doubt, the real possibility created by what I have termed the “math problem” in this case. It is very probable that the government’s theory is correct, that even if the defendants did not participate in the murder some or all of them knew enough about the circumstances of it to provide helpful information to law enforcement and have chosen to withhold that information for reasons of their own.”

Lurker
Lurker
14 years ago
Reply to  cinnamon

I understand, and even accept the verdict, but it’s still deeply unsatisfying that even the judge knows a murderer (or two or three) went free.

Southern Lurker
Southern Lurker
14 years ago
Reply to  Mad in Philly

“Mr. Price did what the Government charged him with, yet she somehow acquits the defendants because she felt the Government’s case didn’t meet the reasonable doubt standard. I have heard many a juror justify an acquittal on those grounds, but to read such illogic from a sitting judge is mind-blowing.”

How is it mind blowing?

CapHill 507
CapHill 507
14 years ago
Reply to  Mad in Philly

Agree – the judge is an imbecile. Any reasonable person can understand that these three guys have and continue to obstruct justice through their conspiracy. She has simply become complicit herself in the conspiracy and the obstruction.

Bill
Bill
14 years ago
Reply to  CapHill 507

Insulting and sour grapes.

Alex
Alex
14 years ago

Bill, you seem to equate a finding of not guilty with a finding of innocence. It’s your bias that is the problem. Anyone can read the order and see that the judge has serious suspicions about the defendants–there was just a lack of evidence beyond a reasonable doubt. So look in the mirror when you accuse others of bias.

Bill
Bill
14 years ago
Reply to  Alex

Oh I perfectly understand that she found the defendants not guilty of the charges based on the standard of “reasonable doubt.” Do you? Why not check out that mirror for yourself!

Jo
Jo
14 years ago

For a second, I actually wish ninjas exist! Not the kinds that stab innocent people but vigilante ninjas that seek true justice.

After I have come to my senses following the verdict announcement, I just want to wish the Wone family peace and comfort in knowing that there is a big community of people out there who know in their hearts that the defendants are guilty. They will pay for their crimes in this life and the one after.

A big thank you to the editors of this site for your hard work and dedication. What you have done is truly amazing. I will continue to follow the civil trial and pray that the guilty individuals pay dearly in this life and in the next life.

Corgivet
Corgivet
14 years ago
Reply to  Jo

Well they do in TV land his name is Dexter

Jo
Jo
14 years ago
Reply to  Corgivet

Perhaps Dexter will pay the defendants a visit?

Joking aside, I doubt that the defendants can live life as normal again especially when more truth will come to light in the civil trial. It’s small punishment compared to what happened to Robert and how much anguish his loved ones have to endure.

One way or another the guilty will pay for their crime.

DD
DD
14 years ago
Reply to  Jo

It is time for them to leave DC, and hide all their assets in Florida as OJ has done. The Wones will win the next case as we watch all the sexual assault details emerge in a manner that was not allowed in this trial. Will Dylan’s Dad give Joe all those hearty handshakes between breaks in discussions about dildos, clamps, restraints, estims, and devices to force one to drink the urine of another?

Carolina
Carolina
14 years ago
Reply to  DD

They already put their money if Florida. They knew what was coming.

David M
David M
14 years ago

Bill, when the judge went out of her way to state clearly that the defense argument of the intruder was “incredible” she showed clearly that while the state did not prove its case, she wasn’t buying the defense case either.

NOT GUILTY is NOT the same thing as INNOCENT. Ask OJ Simpson. These creeps have gotten away, temporarily at least, with killing a very decent and beloved man.

JohnAdams
JohnAdams
14 years ago

The Blackstone adage ignores the fact that Robert, and Kathy, are also innocents. It also ignores the harm done to other innocents when criminals are set free because we’re 98% sure they’re guilty instead of 99% sure. It’s easy to blather on about how terrible it would be to convict one innocent man (leaving aside the fact that even in our current system, it happens every day); it’s a little harder to explain to a rapist or murderer or pedophile’s next victim that they don’t even figure into the equation.

I have to say, I’m pretty disgusted with our system of justice right now.

Mike
Mike
14 years ago

Shocking. An absolute travesty . This will go down as the Gay OJ trial. I really don’t understand how the Judge can look at the evidence and not find obstruction. Did Robert stab himself?

I guess anytime 3 people want to kill someone they can just say “Oh a ninja assassin intruder magically appeared, and left without a trace.”

Disgusting.

Doubtful
Doubtful
14 years ago

Please note, for all interested in or capable of resuming lives.

The first boat will be leaving for the mainland at 4 PM EDT. All passengers will be required to shower before boarding the vessel.

BenFranklin
BenFranklin
14 years ago
Reply to  Doubtful

All showered after my swim. See you on the starboard deck sipping a beer.

Craig
Admin
14 years ago
Reply to  BenFranklin

Send those Dylan Ward pics anytime you want Ben. Bye.

Bill
Bill
14 years ago

@Mad in Philly – To you and the multitude of other armchair lawyers who will undoubtedly comment, you can’t rewrite the history of this site’s posts. EVERYONE praised the judge as outstanding, brilliant, and centered. NOW, you don’t like her verdict — so why not just bash her. Like I said yesteday afternoon, there were just so many people who wanted to skip the trial and send the defendants directly to jail (with the recommended prison rape).

Her Honor has given her verdict. NOW DEAL WITH IT. Even the video of the prosecution above stated they respected the judged verdict. Do the same.

David M
David M
14 years ago
Reply to  Bill

Bill, the judge said these creeps got off legally. That’s it. Like I said before, NOT GUILTY is NOT the same as INNOCENT. I hope and expect and will do what I can to help make sure this verdict and all it says follow every one of these creeps for the rest of their natural lives until one or all finally comes clean about what they have done.

Bill
Bill
14 years ago
Reply to  David M

Oh, now because you didn’t like her verdict, you are going to become a vigilante. That’s just great!

Carolina
Carolina
14 years ago
Reply to  Bill

So now you’re just insane.

KiKi
KiKi
14 years ago
Reply to  Bill

Bill,

Why are you even trying? The rational discussions stopped on this site sometime on Fri. As you know from your earlier posts, even before the verdict, no amount of logical discussion is going to tame the masses. They wanted blood, they did not get blood and they will spout hateful, vengeful nonsense in response to anyone who is not as equally blood thirsty.

This site was incredible for almost 2 years, it has given access to the system to people like never before. It allowed people from all walks of life to come together to discuss issues about the trial, and life generally. It gave people actual information to base their opinions on. People who disagreed with each other were respected (for the most part) and offered alternative ideas. I had never seen anything like it.

All that changed a few days ago. It is now a hatred and anger filled sounding board for people who have no other outlet to unload their anger. Hopefully once things calm down and people move on with their lives this blog can get back to being a place for rational people to discuss intriguing and important issues.

Until then Bill, good luck.

Bill
Bill
14 years ago
Reply to  KiKi

@KiKi – Thanks for your advice. I’ve been following this site every day for the past three months. What I’ve noticed once the trial started was a definite clique comprised of those who had their minds may up and — god help you — if you objected or brought up other facts not to their liking. These are the very people who are reeling today or are making the verdict out to be “lipstick on a pig,” but not acknowledging that the defense WON.

I also noticed that newcomers who asked questions or brought up issues previously discussed were rudely heckled or talked down to by these “veterans.” I have defending those people before stating that it’s those who would best able to understand the trial rather than those who have followed the site for four years. Why? Because those with new eyes would more closely track with a potential juror following admitted evidence and argument at trial.

Thank you again for your comments. Be well.

Bill Orange
Bill Orange
14 years ago
Reply to  Bill

I think you’re overstating your case here. I agree with you that the defense won the day. I understand the judge’s decision, though I don’t agree with it. You’re taking heat from a small number of people, because you aren’t acknowledging that the simple fact that the judge’s opinion–even though she ruled in their favor–paints the defendants in a very, very bad light.

Bill
Bill
14 years ago
Reply to  Bill Orange

The issue of the day — “verdict day” — is the answer by the finder of fact based on the charges and the evidence and testimony presented at trial. In the end of the day, there are only two choices. Door A — get ready for sentencing because she found them guilty and would send them to prison or Door B — not guilty as charged. They got Door B. There are no other alternatives.

mw
mw
14 years ago
Reply to  Bill

The title of this website is “Who Murdered Robert Wone?” The criminal trial was just one part of this ongoing story.

You have your blinders on for everything except for today’s verdict. So you’re kind of arguing apples with oranges.

leo
leo
14 years ago
Reply to  Bill

Bill, I’m sure the defendants are not feeling too smug and victorious right now, after hearing just how poorly their version of events, including being “unfairly” targeted by homophobes, was received by the factfinder trusted to render a fair and impartial verdict. Yes, they have escaped prison (for now). But their honesty, veracity, characters, and reputations have all suffered quite a blow despite their million-dollar defenses. Nothing can salvage that.

Bill Orange
Bill Orange
14 years ago
Reply to  Bill

I agree with you in the narrow “black and white” sense. This was a win for the defense and a loss for the prosecution. But I don’t see how you can see this as anything other than a Pyrrhic victory for the defendants. The judge’s ruling will be a template for the upcoming civil trial and will probably end up as part of a some sort of formal complaint against Joe Price to the DC and/or Virginia bar. And there’s absolutely no way that anyone can claim it says “Innocent, Innocent, Innocent”.

Bill
Bill
14 years ago
Reply to  Bill Orange

Oh, this is definitely a win for the defendants. No doubt about that. They aren’t going to prison — what else would you call that if not a victory?

CDinDC (Boycott BP)
CDinDC (Boycott BP)
14 years ago
Reply to  Bill

At least Ben Franklin and Tasso are gentlemen enough to refrain from gloating.

Bill
Bill
14 years ago

Who is gloating? I argued on the merits of the case before the verdict and was vilified that I would dare “as a newcomer” have an opinion contrary to the majority. Remember last weekend??

We are now discussing the verdict. And I am weighing with my opinions as hundreds of others are. By all means, joln in.

CDinDC (Boycott BP)
CDinDC (Boycott BP)
14 years ago
Reply to  Bill

Bill says: “Remember last weekend??”

No. I rarely read your posts.

Bill 2
Bill 2
14 years ago
Reply to  Bill Orange

While the defense “won” the day, they certainly didn’t earn their $2.5 million. The “win” was handed to them by the incompetence of police and FBI.

Only a fool would claim the trouple is innocent of all charges. They were found “not guilty” but the judge certainly was clear that she had to make that finding based on the poor case presented by the prosecution. Her comments about the trouple leave a very dark cloud over their heads.

Three Strikes
Three Strikes
14 years ago
Reply to  KiKi

Why is anyone even playing Bill’s game here? Feeding the flame?

Carolina
Carolina
14 years ago
Reply to  KiKi

Your bias is showing. Of course, it always was.

Some of us had questions all along. Some of us said so. But even the judge as much as said one of them killed Robert, but as she could not say which, they must all walk.

Bill
Bill
14 years ago
Reply to  Carolina

Really – why don’t you review your posts from just last weekend.

DD
DD
14 years ago
Reply to  Bill

Everyone WILL deal with it — like we eventually dealt with Bush over Gore in 2000. But let us have our bitch session for a few days —- and STFU! What did you expect? 500 comments praising the judge? Today is my first day posting because I am mad as hell.

Atlanta
Atlanta
14 years ago
Reply to  Bill

Don’t you mean “Judge’s” verdict? Grammar, Bill.

Bill
Bill
14 years ago
Reply to  Atlanta

Oh, I just love those “Sister Mary Grammar” comments. Do you also have a ruler to hit me on my hands?

MarkF
MarkF
14 years ago

Any predictions as to what happens next?

Personally, I think that Robert Z. is now too old to entertain Price. Price is now too old to entertain Ward. The trio will break up. As with most people on here, I suspect that Zaborsky will be the first to tell the truth.

I also believe that the trio got some good sound legal advice – to stick together and to keep their mouths shut. A good lawyer would know that it’s next to impossible to get a conviction of any if all stick together. But that strategy won’t work in a civil case.

I also predict that all three will find themselves in more legal trouble that is totally unrelated to the murder of Robert Wone. They will each meet up and screw over more people, just like OJ did.

David M
David M
14 years ago
Reply to  MarkF

Yah, like the guy who was under suspicion of killing that Halloway girl went on to kill another young woman in Peru.

Bill Orange
Bill Orange
14 years ago
Reply to  MarkF

“Any predictions as to what happens next?”

The civil suit, obviously. Covington & Burling are going to be on these three until the end of time.

Anonymous Friend
Anonymous Friend
14 years ago
Reply to  Bill Orange

Anyone have ready access to the model jury charges for the charges in the civil case? I’m curious what elements need to be established by a preponderance of the evidence. Thanks.

Ivan
Ivan
14 years ago
Reply to  MarkF

A lot of people seem to perceive Ward as a “young” man but he’s the same age as Price , I believe.

leo
leo
14 years ago
Reply to  Ivan

Actually, he’s one year older (40).

Kate
Kate
14 years ago
Reply to  leo

Yes, and if Victor is old, well, then …. so am I !

Please say it ain’t so.

Jack Star
Jack Star
14 years ago

“Did Robert stab himself?” Perhaps, some how he managed to cum up his own ass. Have any of the editors or regulars been able to accomplish that?

Bill
Bill
14 years ago
Reply to  Jack Star

Wasn’t a murder trial or one with sexual battery.

mw
mw
14 years ago
Reply to  Bill

But it’s the most damning evidence that your friends are weirdo sex killers.

Bill
Bill
14 years ago
Reply to  mw

No it wasn’t — b/c it wasn’t a murder of sexual assault trial. You can’t make it something it wasn’t unless you just want to throw out legal procedure and rules of evidence out the window.

JohnAdams
JohnAdams
14 years ago
Reply to  Bill

Please. The rules of “legal procedure” don’t govern the forumlation of private opinions.

Bill
Bill
14 years ago
Reply to  JohnAdams

The thread is responding to the judge’s verdict – so it does matter.

mw
mw
14 years ago
Reply to  Bill

What exactly are the rules of evidence of a message board? I’ve never seen those cited anywhere.

If I knew a trio of my friends were involved in gay rape killings, I’d probably be a little upset with them, regardless of whether they were actually convicted of anything.

If those guys have many friends as loyal as you, who won’t fear for their safety, I expect we’ll have more victims. I have no idea how close you are with these guys, but this could have been you. It could have been any of their friends.

Unless you actually believe that all three are completely innocent and have no idea what happened. Which I don’t think is a credible opinion at this point, but I’d love to see anyone try to support it.

Wulfila
Wulfila
14 years ago
Reply to  mw

hear, hear!

Leonard
Leonard
14 years ago

Interesting that all of the points related to the judge’s decision were examined and discussed on this blog and similar conclusions were drawn. While it’s no solice to the Wone’s, any other verdict would have been inappropriate from a legal perspective. The judge made her decision based on facts and evidence not on inference. Her judgment may not be the populist sentiment but she did right by the law. I expect many readers of this blog might want to go back and reread the posts and documents with an eye and ear toward how the judge interpreted the facts. A good example of how to filter out personal feelings from professional responsibility.

Lee
Lee
14 years ago
Reply to  Leonard

I agree with you completely. The burden of proof on the prosecution is one of good things about the criminal justice system; it is not one of the bad things.

mw
mw
14 years ago
Reply to  Leonard

I’m sure I’m not the only one here (and I expect that it’s probably a majority) don’t have a huge problem with the verdict, but are just upset that murderer(s) are walking free.

There’s absolutely zero question that at least one of them knows exactly what happened. It’s very probable that by now, they all do.

Daphne
Daphne
14 years ago
Reply to  Leonard

Exactly.

Tim
Tim
14 years ago

I was in court today for the verdicts. After the shock wore off, I had the following thoughts:

1) The evidence that most of us considered in concluding that the trouple are guilty is different than what Judge L considered in finding them not guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. Very few of us were in court for the entire trial, and even reading the excellent reports at this website only distilled a fraction of the information that was presented. Also, many of the discussions on the site are based upon information that would’ve been relevant in a murder trial but not THIS trial. It’s hard for me to honestly assess how I would think about the evidence if I was forced to put on blinders on not consider everything else I “know” about this case.

2) I predict Joe Price will have other legal problems beyond this case within the next decade. His near clinical narcissism will only be fed by this verdict, and he is not the type of man to retire to Florida and live a quiet domesticated life. Joe don’t do Low Profile. Much like O.J. Simpson, I predict that this will eventually lead him to (again) transgress the law in some felonious way.

3) It is very likely that a jury would have deadlocked in this case, with one or two holding out for acquittal. The sensational facts of this case just attract more crazy speculation and colorful characters than a typical case (BenFranklin is still holding out for the Intruder Theory!). Now, no twelve member jury would ever acquit these guys, as you’re never going to find 12 people who believe in “very likely guilt” to a “moral certainty” but nevertheless vote to acquit on all charges. But a judge, who is likely to have a loftier and more idealistic definition of “beyond a reasonable” doubt is much more likely to acquit when making these fine and unpopular distinctions. Try this case with 12 different juries, the defendants are never walking out of Moultrie free men. Probably ten out of twelve judges would’ve convicted of at least some of the charges. The defendants got lucky and landed on a judge that was hyper-vigilant about holding the government to the legal standard.

4) A small word in defense of the cops: yes, they botched it to some degree. But they botched it because the likely truth of the matter is so “out there,” so outside of even their jaded investigative experience that they couldn’t comprehend what probably really happened until the evidence was no longer ripe.

5) Those who are giving the trouple credit for the “perfect crime” are giving them too much credit. If Victor doesn’t fly home early and unannounced that night, and all the other facts remain the same, we no longer have the “33 1/3 problem.” Instead, we have two people…one of whom would be the murderer, and the other of whom would know that the other is the murderer. Obstruction (and even murder) charges are much more likely to make out without Victor’s presence.

keepingalevelhead
keepingalevelhead
14 years ago
Reply to  Tim

Excellent post Tim.

Joe and crew were more brazen and audacious and lucky than brilliant.

Kate
Kate
14 years ago

Agree, excellent post.

Many thanks for your thoughts and observations,
Kate

PRG in SS
PRG in SS
14 years ago

Thank you editors, for your dedication to this trial and seeking justice for Robert Wone. Mr. Kirschner said that murder charges are still a possibility. Let’s hope that the evidence needed for such charges will be uncovered and that this does not end up as just another unsolved D.C. homicide. I call for a vigil to mark the upcoming anniversary of Wone’s murder. I would join others who believe that at least one guilty man walked free today in expressing solidarity with the Wone family and sorrow for what they have been put through these last four years.

Roger Sherman
Roger Sherman
14 years ago

I have been a lurker on this site for the past year; this is my first posting.

My heart goes out to Mrs Wone and Robert’s loved ones. All I can do is pray that they can at some point be at peace.

I have to offer my profound gratitude to the editors for keeping this case in the public eye, and for their time and energy. This type of information exchange is the future of journalism.

I thank the posters, especially the experts in their field that enlightened and informed us. Overall, with a few exceptions, everyone was civil and respectful despite some strongly held beliefs.

I wouldn’t trade our criminal justice system for any other. I whole-heartedly agree with the philosophy that it is better for the guilty to go free rather than an innocent to be imprisoned. I also agree with the standard of beyond reasonable doubt.

I just completed reading the Final Order, and I respect Judge Leibovitz and her decision. However, I can’t shake my impression that the standard she used was not “beyond reasonable doubt” but “beyond any doubt” despite her explanations and citations.

I am outraged that these three are not guilty and free. Robert was horrifically murdered by those he trusted and called friends. One or all of them committed the crime, obstructed the investigation, tampered with the crime scene, and should be in a prison cell for the rest of their lives.

Finally, I’m equally outraged by the DC police. The AUSA had to work with what he was given. The real crime is the incompetence of the investigators – questions not asked, leads not pursued, evidence mishandled. The people of DC have been very badly served by their police department.

slwapo
slwapo
14 years ago
Reply to  Roger Sherman

“However, I can’t shake my impression that the standard she used was not “beyond reasonable doubt” but “beyond any doubt” despite her explanations and citations.”

I cannot reconcile this decision with the fact that innocent people are convicted all the time in this country. Given this verdict, you would think that innocent people NEVER get convicted.

cinnamon
cinnamon
14 years ago
Reply to  slwapo

“However, I can’t shake my impression that the standard she used was not “beyond reasonable doubt” but “beyond any doubt”

This is how I feel as well.

Lurker
Lurker
14 years ago
Reply to  Roger Sherman

I had my doubts about the case as it went to the judge, but after reading the Order, and reading the factual evidence that the judge relied on, I also came away with the impression that the judge went above and beyond the BARD standard into “legal certainty” territory. Given how clearly the judge believes the trouple (or some part thereof) participated in the murder, let alone the cover-up, the order is a deeply unsatisfying outcome…

Jay
Jay
14 years ago

Do you think they will write, “If We Dit It”? This case the whole way through was like watching the OJ case except more complicated because you had 3 people covering for each other since its inception (well at least we think they were). Condolences to the Wones and their family regardless of who did it.

dsquared
dsquared
14 years ago

The conspiracy charges are settled but the homicide is not. As is often the case, someone who knows something will want to trade in the future to get out of trouble; or a jealous or jilted person seeking revenge will likely come forward in the future. There are more people involved than the trouple– and I wouldn’t want to count on any of them to do anything for me unless it was in their best interests. As others have said, the defense team was able to hold the group together for the trial. My guess is now that they fragment like a piece of broken glass.

Lyn
Lyn
14 years ago

I am extremely disappointed with today’s verdicts. The Wone family did not receive the justice it deserves.

If I were to sum up the judge’s opinion it would be: “One of the housemates is the murderer. They are all probably guilty of obstruction, but I’m not absolutely sure each and everyone obstructed so I cannot convict any of them.”

To those friends and supporters of the trouple, I have but one question: Will you yourself ever be willing to spend the night at the trouple’s house in the future?

SXMSG
14 years ago

Coproscopist

ccf
ccf
14 years ago
Reply to  SXMSG

STFU!

galoon
galoon
14 years ago
Reply to  ccf

Took the words right out of my mouth.

WDG
WDG
14 years ago

I cannot imagine the amount of inner turmoil for Judge Leibovitz…to KNOW that she was letting a murderer sitting in her courtroom walk freely out the door.

Bill
Bill
14 years ago
Reply to  WDG

The women is a professional. She knows what the charges were and decided accordingly based on her assessment of the testimony and evidence presented. If the government had such a strong case for murder, they would have sought an indictment for it.

Carolina
Carolina
14 years ago
Reply to  Bill

What about 33 1/3 didn’t YOU understand?

Bill
Bill
14 years ago
Reply to  Carolina

What part of not guilt on all counts is hard for you to understand? Wrap your mind around the fact that all three walked out free men. Now, there’s four words that you need to remember. Here it goes:

***Not Guilty***

***Free Men***

Got it?

cinnamon
cinnamon
14 years ago
Reply to  Bill

Bill,
Honestly, can you seriously not understand the the complexity of the judge’s decision? It’s not black and white. Yes, they are free men on these charges, but the judge made clear that she believes one of the three is likely repsonsible for the murder or knows who is. There is a possibility that they could be tried for the murder. Did you think that the readers of this blog would not have issues with this outcome? The judge even has issues with the outcome for Christ’s sake.

Daphne
Daphne
14 years ago
Reply to  cinnamon

Why is anyone engaging with this guy? Let him go. He believes what he believes.

keepingalevelhead
keepingalevelhead
14 years ago

Personally, I think the judge could, given her findings, have crossed the line into beyond reasonable doubt.

Let’s look forward to a murder trial when, somehow or other, someone talks, and/or other evidence emerges.

NoName
NoName
14 years ago

Reading between the lines, the Judge is saying that there is reasonable doubt as to at least one of the defendants (as well as finding at least one guilty); but that she can not determine from the facts which one that is. She can’t find all three guilty based on the mis-deeds of the other one (or two). So her only choice was to acquit all three.

In other words, “the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer.” Blackstone

Leonard
Leonard
14 years ago
Reply to  NoName

Spot on. The law as far as I’m aware never allows for the conviction of the innocent so as to ensure punishment of the guilty to do so is a form of retributivism that slides quickly down a slippery slope. If I sacrifice one innocent for two guilty is that okay? How about two innocent for three guilty? The moral line must be a fast one that cannot be crossed. I recognized that quandary early on in the case and found the possibility of the judge confronting that point and deciding for the defendants a very strong possibility. What precedent do we set by punishing the innocent? Who among the posted on this blog would convict all three if they knew one or two were absolutely innocent but they couldn’t tell which?

JohnAdams
JohnAdams
14 years ago
Reply to  Leonard

The problem with this equation is that it wholly ommits the next victim of the guilty individual being set free. How many children should be molested by the ten guilty pedophiles in order to ensure that an innocent man isn’t convicted? I’m not saying we ought to toss out the reasonable doubt standard, but the “better to set ten guilty men free” statement is almost painfully simplistic.

Lynn
Lynn
14 years ago
Reply to  JohnAdams

I think it is very very hard to apply the “better to set ten guilty men free” to any specific case for the reasons you and others here have stated.

The problem, though, is the potential consequences society-wide if you accept the idea of punishing a group because some are guilty. Let’s say we know without a shadow of a doubt that someone on your block is a pedophile. In fact, we know that four people in your neighborhood are pedophiles. But we don’t know who. Are you willing to go to jail for life so that we can ensure that those pedophiles don’t hurt any more children?

The examples only get worse as you go up in scale. If we give the prosecutors or the judges the right to lock up a group whether or not they are all guilty, you are effectively giving the government the right to do that. It might be the right move in this case, but what about the next case where it could be you or a member of your family? Or what happens when a whole category of people is involved? Do we lock up all the priests because of the pedophiles among them? Do we lock up all muslims because of the terrorists among them?

Our country is built on a foundation of individual rights. You have to prove that the individual is guilty, and you can’t lock up a group because one of them must have done something. That’s a fundamental right that I am not willing to give up.

WhatACase
WhatACase
14 years ago

Why does Kirschner go out of his way to thank the MPD evidence techs, and Secret Service folks, who screwed up the evidence so royally? My guess is that he doesn’t want to burn bridges as he has to work with them on the next case. But pretending that everyone did a terrific job merely ensures that changes/improvements are not made. Reminds me of Bush’s “hell of a job, Brownie” comment after Katrina.

The lesson of O.J. and now the Trouple is that with enough money, and continued sloppiness on the part of under-funded evidence techs, justice can be deferred. Race or preference isn’t in play when the defendant is wealthy; it’s all about the color green.

My sympathies to the Wone family for having to endure more pain today.

plumskiter
plumskiter
14 years ago
Reply to  WhatACase

Like you, I cringed when Kirschner praised the police, evidence techs and Secret Service. Such praise is customary in govt press conferences, but when uttered under these circumstances, it just made Kirschner look like an unreliable phony whose words cannot be trusted.

Kathleen
Kathleen
14 years ago
Reply to  WhatACase

Before a verdict is announced in trials the US Attorney’s Office Press Office prepares a very long Press Release announcing their win so thet can release it to the press as soon as the verdict comes in. It includes every person who even touched a peice of evidence or helped prepare an exhibit, etc. They usually mention as many as fifty to sixty people in the office.

Naturally when they lose, the Press Release announcing their victory doesn’t see the light of day. So essentially Kirschner was reading the unpublished Press Release.

mia
mia
14 years ago

I understand the judge’s point. Construction and conspiracy are among the most difficult to prove. With that said, I think Kathy will have a very good chance to prevail her civil trial. I’ll follow the case as long as it goes. Thanks all the editors and commentator here.

AnonVA
AnonVA
14 years ago

Did Bernie Grimm say in the above interview that Joe had lost his family as well as his job and house? If I heard it correctly, what is he referring to exactly?

curiousdc
curiousdc
14 years ago
Reply to  AnonVA

but according to the Washington Post realty section, they still own the R St. condo and the property in Florida, poor dears…

Lurker
Lurker
14 years ago
Reply to  AnonVA

Maybe that explains why his parents, alone among the others, were not in attendance at the trial (at least as reported here). I wonder if the mothers of his and Victor’s children will allow them to visit them again?

AnonVA
AnonVA
14 years ago

Did Bernie Grimm say in the above interview that Joe had lost his family as well as his job and house? If I heard it correctly, what is he referring to exactly?

Also, can the judge’s statement be used to benefit the Wone family in the civil trial?

WDG
WDG
14 years ago
Reply to  AnonVA

Yes, Bernie stated that Joe is bankrupt, lost his job, house, family, etc…and is will now be looking to get his life back.

Ivan
Ivan
14 years ago
Reply to  WDG

He still has Dylan.

KKinCA
KKinCA
14 years ago
Reply to  Ivan

Do you think Dylan will hang around with Joe NOW? He was itching to get out 4 years ago!!

Tallulah
Tallulah
14 years ago
Reply to  WDG

Perhaps he can head back to Results to recover his (formerly) girlish figure.

Daphne
Daphne
14 years ago
Reply to  WDG

He didn’t lose his house — he sold it.

DD
DD
14 years ago
Reply to  Daphne

exactly. he bought another house in florida because florida does not require him to give up his home to a civil judgment. this is why OJ bought a home in florida and the goldmans are unable to claim it to cover the civil damages owed to them. thankfully, they can move to florida and make new friends to replace their DC friends who can see through their lies.

Daphne
Daphne
14 years ago
Reply to  DD

Oh, things have a way of following you. Karma’s a bitch.

Jo
Jo
14 years ago
Reply to  DD

The cloud of suspicion will hang over their heads no matter where they move to. People everywhere in the world have access to the internet.

But just curious if the victim’s families and friends have considered an ad campaign to raise awareness of this murder and keep the pressure on the killer(s).

Is it legal to place a newspaper ad quoting details of the verdict? Perhaps with a heading such as –

Who Murdered Robert Wone? Take a Closer Look at the “Not Guilty” Verdict in Charges against Joe Price, Dylan Ward, and Victor Zaborsky

Let’s not forget: Not Guilty does NOT equate Innocent

I am sure many people will be willing to contribute to such an ad campaign.

Scott
Scott
14 years ago
Reply to  WDG

Bankrupt — financially or morally?

keepingalevelhead
keepingalevelhead
14 years ago
Reply to  AnonVA

He deserves to live as an outcast like OJ did (before he went to jail again).

Daphne
Daphne
14 years ago

He will. They all will.

mw
mw
14 years ago
Reply to  Daphne

I’m not so sure. I can see them becoming sympathetic figures in the gay community. I think we’ve already seen some of that here.

With their careers likely over, they should open up a gay S&M bar in San Francisco. Visitors will know they’re in for a wild time. A time so wild it might kill a straight man.

Carolina
Carolina
14 years ago
Reply to  mw

I can tell you, none of them would ever be accepted in the BDSM community anywhere. No one will tolerate a rogue. No one wants to be dead.

Wulfila
Wulfila
14 years ago
Reply to  mw

I don’t personally see any sympathy from the gay community (albeit, I am not a Dupont Circle gay). My gay friends and I are just as horrified at this crime as most others are. I think the only sympathy we’re seeing on here is from close friends/tricks of the trio (let’s not call them a trouple, that implies, as the media outlets do, that the 3 are in a “committed” relationship, when it is quite obvious they are not–it was a loose 1X1 + 1X1 at best, and in any case none of them, save possibly Victor, was committed in any usual sense of the word). Everyone I know is also aghast at the ruling today. How anyone can possibly gloat and claim “victory” is beyond me. It’s quite obvious the judge thinks they are Guilty, Guilty, Guilty, it’s just that she couldn’t find them as such based on the very narrow rules within which she had to work. The civil trial will show this, guaranteed.

Daphne
Daphne
14 years ago
Reply to  mw

I can see Victor imploding when the strain gets too much. It’s like “Crime and Punishment.”

Carolina
Carolina
14 years ago
Reply to  Daphne

If nothing else, I hope he leaves the relationship and makes his life count for something. In my own Personal Utopia, I’d be willing to see him live his life making up for the loss of Robert Wone by doing something good for the world.

Bill 2
Bill 2
14 years ago
Reply to  Carolina

I doubt that he’ll be allowed to leave the “relationship.” After the revelation of Price’s “Hey love-of-my-life” e-mail to Ward, there’s no doubt that Zaborsky knows he’s a cuckolded fool who’s kept on to water the garden.

The only way the killer can remain free is by keeping the other two on a very short tether from this day forward. Do you really think he would allow Zaborsky to walk away?

Gee
Gee
14 years ago

Something in me reacts badly to a “not guilty” decision accompanied by an explanation that suggests otherwise. Most people understand what is and isn’t legally meant by “not guilty.” A jury is not allowed to deliver a verdict of “guilty, but” or “not guilty, but,” and I don’t see that judge should do this either.

This point, interestingly, is made in Alfred Hitchcock’s movie “I Confess.” When the jury foreman and judge both suggest that they disagree with the legal verdict, the prosecutor (it’s a movie, remember) says: “Why not just say not guilty”?

emg
emg
14 years ago

I’ve just started reading the ruling and have found what appeaar to be 2 errors so far.

1-The Judge refers to Robert’s blackberry and says the last “transmission” was at 11:08. I thought it was concluded it was never sent. Did Robert’s wife receive it.

2-Re: mouth guard. This is shocking. Robert was supposedly “intubated” in the ambulance and given CPR. He then is in a basically code blue state. The ME later found the mouth guard in Robert’s mouth. Exactly how does one intubate, perform CPR and treat someone in emergency properly and not know there is a m mouth guard in place? Was it lodged in his throat? Did he suffocate from it?

What the heck?

weaver
weaver
14 years ago
Reply to  emg

It was the ME who removed the mouth guard??

emg
emg
14 years ago
Reply to  weaver

That’s what page 5 says.

Lyn
Lyn
14 years ago
Reply to  emg

Another error in her findings – concluding that the time of the stabbing could have been as late as 11:49pm when she accepted as a fact that Wone’s body was cool to the touch just 6 minutes later.

cinnamon
cinnamon
14 years ago
Reply to  Lyn

Exactly. I can’t believe she used PEA in her findings. That information seemed so vague and all over the place. Didn’t the EMT’s testimony that he was cold and appeared dead for some time mean anything?
Ugh. So frustrating.

sitedown
sitedown
14 years ago
Reply to  emg

If there really are errors in her verdict, I hope someone sends her a civilized letter pointing them out, and that the realization followed by the unending weight of the shame and guilt of erroneously allowing one or more men to get away with murder eventually drives her to insanity.

chilaw79
chilaw79
14 years ago
Reply to  emg

The EMTs did not intubate Robert in the ambulance. Their attempt was unsuccessful according to the run report put into evidence. Whether intubation was attempted after removal of the mouth guard or not was not clear from the testimony.

Bill Orange
Bill Orange
14 years ago
Reply to  chilaw79

If memory serves, it was fairly clear from the autopsy report that Wone had both the mouth guard and an endotracheal tube in place when the autopsy was conducted. I also don’t think the two are mutually exclusive. If the mouth guard was on his upper teeth, the ER team probably didn’t bother removing it if it wasn’t in their way when they were trying to intubate.

whodoneit
whodoneit
14 years ago

I just finished reading the judge’s decision. In the end it all boils down to the last paragraph before the conclusion. She is convinced that at least one, if not all three, is guilty, but she can’t rule out the possibility that one of the three might not be guilty and she can’t be certain which one that might be; therefore she has to acquit all three – “the math problem.”

“Overall, the defendants’ story that an intruder committed the offense is incredible beyond a reasonable doubt. But as I have said, that does not answer the question whether each defendant knew this at the time he spoke to investigators on August 2-3, 2006, or later in talking to others. Any one of the defendants could have been the odd man out of the scheme. Any one of them could have believed the others when he was told that they were not responsible for Mr. Wone’s death and that they had no idea how it had occurred. Any one of them could have found the intruder theory plausible in the face of these denials, if he did not know the real truth, and if he trusted his co-defendants at the time. If any defendant was this one, his statements were not knowingly false and his statements were not made with the intent to keep the police from solving the murder. I do not find beyond a reasonable doubt that the statements of any defendant were so knowingly or demonstrably false that they alone establish the charges.”

JohnAdams
JohnAdams
14 years ago
Reply to  whodoneit

This is exactly right. It’s a pity really, because the defendant or defendants who are actually not guilty probably would have avoided jail by flipping. I don’t fault the judge, but this is a travesty. Those people crowing about the housemates’ innocence either haven’t read the opinion, or are simply trolling.

Kjkeefe
Kjkeefe
14 years ago
Reply to  whodoneit

Yes, I agree this is the central point of the case. She believes one or all are guilty. Beyond a reasonable doubt, one or all know who committed the murder. But she can’t find beyond a reasonable doubt that any one of them “may not be guilty” as the “odd man out”. The judge did her job. These guys, two at least, but very very likely all of them succeeded in stonewalling this, by sticking to the story they concocted quickly after the murder but before the cops got there. Two of them are lawyers, right? And they probably said to each other that if they stick together and tell NO ONE else the truth, they may all walk. And it worked.

Now, just like happened to OJ Simpson, the family of the victim will sue them for wrongful death and most likey win on the lower standard of proof, leaving them impoverished for life. Some level of justice, but certainly not complete.

For people who don’t understand what the judge did, read and think about her quote that says it is better that 10 guilty men go free (or was it 100) than that one innocent man go to jail. Our system is quite serious about this outcome. The burden on the state is a heavy one before it can send a person to jail. And be careful if you think the system needs to be re-ordered, because you may not like living in a country where the cops and prosecutors have an easier time of throwing people in jail, based on “common sense”.

OJ (for a while) and the two or three of them who are guilty here are not the only people who committed heinous felony crimes and yet never go to jail. They walk among us. The best we may be able to do is avoid these people, and hope the system gets them in the end. They still could be charged with murder, if more evidence surfaces…

Peace

Carol
Carol
14 years ago
Reply to  Kjkeefe

Of the three, Joe is the only lawyer.

Carolina
Carolina
14 years ago
Reply to  whodoneit

That’s it, right there. The 33 1/3 Dilemma.

Jimbo
Jimbo
14 years ago

Does anyone else think that there must be book publishers and movie execs….with barrels of cash to drop at the feet of this trio. They have gone from Swann St…to EASY STREET! Maybe the Wone Family will have something to say about that.

Spike
Spike
14 years ago
Reply to  Jimbo

Actually, I don’t. At all. Exactly what would they have to peddle? An “If I Did It…” account?

I think all this aquittal did was buy them some time. It’s going to all catch up to them.

cinnamon
cinnamon
14 years ago
Reply to  Spike

As they say, the wheels of justice grind slowly but exceedlingly fine.

Jimbo
Jimbo
14 years ago
Reply to  cinnamon

I guess I would have to agree…and I do think Pandora’s Box…will be open soon.

cinnamon
cinnamon
14 years ago
Reply to  Jimbo

This isn’t over. If some evidence surfaces that allows a murder trial to proceed, will they be able to bring the big guns again?

KKinCA
KKinCA
14 years ago

My heart breaks for the Wone family. While I understand the the Judge’s legal reasoning and basis for her “Not Guilty” verdicts on all counts, it just sickens me that Joe Price had the nerve to be a pallbearer at Robert’s funeral, given his involvement/cover up of Robert’s murder/murderer. Has the man no conscience?
Also, I hope all the posters who have complained on this site that the “system” is homophobic take due note of this judge’s decision, which should quiet your complaints somewhat. The verdicts lessen the validity of the “homophobia card” (to the extent that there is any validity [tasso’s experience excepted]).
I am going to light a candle for Robert and pray that some day his killer will come to justice. The trouple will need to account to a higher authority.

Carolina
Carolina
14 years ago
Reply to  KKinCA

It was having to assess which of them was guilty. If only one man had been there, he’d be going to jail, and not for obstruction or tampering.

KKinCA
KKinCA
14 years ago
Reply to  Carolina

Thanks Carolina. I was wondering how you are doing with the verdicts. I need to catch up and read your posts and say “ah-huh” and “me too” and “I agree”, etc.
What a horrible day. I feel such a sense of sadness. Unlike the OJ verdicts, which just made me angry. I feel much more emotionally involved in this case, and I am not sure why.

Bill
Bill
14 years ago
Reply to  Carolina

Page 37:

Verdicts
Based on the foregoing, I find Joseph Price, Dylan Ward and Victor Zaborsky each not guilty of the offenses of obstruction of justice and conspiracy to obstruct justice. I find Joseph Price not guilty of the offense of tampering with evidence.

Daphne
Daphne
14 years ago
Reply to  KKinCA

He has no conscience.

keepingalevelhead
keepingalevelhead
14 years ago

If the trouple is guilty (of murder and/or coverup) then that would mean they are strange at best, or perhaps put themselves in situations where they act irrationally due to drugs. In that case, wouldn’t the same situation and characteristics that led to this crime, if they are indeed guilty, make it highly likely one or more will one day talk.

M&M
M&M
14 years ago

Dear Victor:

As your good friend, it has been reassuring to see all the comments from those who know you that you could not be involved in such a crime. However, from the numerous bits of material over the last weeks, including the emails that were entered into evidence, I believe that your love for Joe and your children, and your desire to keep your family intact, has driven to you to go along with the pressure placed upon you by Joe over the last 4 years.

Even though the first trial is over, it is not too late to tell the truth. As you stated, your life will never be the same. It will not be the same because you will wake every day with guilt that will burden your existence. Your marriage will decay, your health will crumble, your mind will wander, and you will see Robert in your dreams. Your life will be prison, and the term will be longer than Liebowitz would have imposed. Your old friends have deserted you and your family in droves, and your new friends will whisper behind your back when they realize that you hold the secret.

I am using my first posting ever on this site to tell you to get out of that prison now and tell the truth. Most likely, Joe will wander away with other men, and you will not spend your life with him anyway. It is only a matter of time. Now is the time for you to come clean. You may have been acquitted, but even the judge knew the truth. There is no victory for you today.

cinnamon
cinnamon
14 years ago
Reply to  M&M

Thank you for posting this M&M

Wulfila
Wulfila
14 years ago
Reply to  M&M

M&M, I hope you’ll find the strength to email this or say this to Victor personally. I suspect from all I have read that he had little to do with this, other than perhaps helping others to cover it up. I hope he will think of Kathy and Robert’s parents and Do The Right Thing. It’s not too late to make amends and set things as right as they can be set at this point. I suspect you are correct in that his “family” is no longer a family at all. And surely after reading those emails, if he had no clue before, he should have one now that Joe is not in love with him and will surely not stay with him in the long run. Peace to you as well.

Sandra Renee Hicks
Sandra Renee Hicks
14 years ago
Reply to  M&M

Greetings –

I join in thanking you M&M.

Victor needs to completely sever ties with those two. It will not bode well for him if he remains addicted to what was and not recognize what is. It was over before now…

My wish is that he have Dylan and Joe vacate his relative’s house ASAP. If Victor does not request it, I wish that his relative does it.

The situation is toxic for Victor, in particular. The antidote is to throw Dylan and Joe overboard.

The only way that any measure of redemption can happen for any of them is if they confess and seek the forgiveness of GOD and the others who have been victimized by the selfish devious conduct of the Swann Street cowards.

They all know where they belong and sensible people know it as well!

Bill 2
Bill 2
14 years ago

Do you honestly think one of the trouple will allow the other two to get more than ten feet away from this day forward? The only way the killer can maintain his freedom from prison is if two other people are under his control 24/7 and never tell what they know about the murder for as long as they are living.

deepsouth
deepsouth
14 years ago
Reply to  M&M

Thank you! This is exactly what I was thinking, but on a larger scale. They are all trapped now in a prison they never thought about. The way I see it, the marriage is already gone – what remained of the critical element of trust went up in email disclosure flame. And I suspect the third party had seen that this wasn’t going to pan out the way he hoped – and started looking at greener pastures – even before the houseguest was murdered.

It’s one thing to choose to be partnered and another thing entirely to be stuck like this, especially with someone with such control issues. Talk about holding a weapon over your partner’s head – I can’t imagine how it would be to get clubbed upside the head with this every time I tried to discuss a problem in my marriage. Talk about a ball and chain? This is it, in triplicate.

Carolina
Carolina
14 years ago
Reply to  M&M

Don’t hold your breath.

Rick
Rick
14 years ago

I have a question for the lawyers here…If the Judge is allowed to use common sense (previous posters have said this is used when she deliberates), why did she make the statements she did regarding the “intruder” theory, and someone in the house “knew” what really happened but then said the prosecutor did not prove beyond a resonable doubt. Wouldn’t her own “common sense” play some role in her reasoning?

Even though I’m quite frustrated with the results of this trial, I’m really trying to understand how the laws and responsibilites of the judge worked in the aquittal. Like I stated, I’m frustrated, but I don’t want to throw out the baby with the bath water when discussing our judicial system. Judge Leibovitz did her job, now I need to understand why and how I was so far off from her opinion…Wow…what a day!

KiKi
KiKi
14 years ago
Reply to  Rick

Rick – I hesitate to reply as I feel like my explanation will be taken out of context by the lynch mob – but since you seem to genuinely want to understand here it goes:

This like everything else in the law is complicated semantics. It is true that the judge may draw reasonable inferences – which in laymen’s terms we say is common sense. In jury instructions the judge will tell the jury not to leave their common sense behind. But the reasonable inferences is in evaluating the evidence not determining guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.

For example: I am at home with my 2 daughters, I go to take a shower, I come back down and one (A) has red and blue markings all over her hands and the other (H) has it all over her face. I see a paint set on the floor. I can reasonably infer that both daughters have paint on them. However I cannot say beyond a reasonable doubt that A put paint on H’s face.

Bill Orange
Bill Orange
14 years ago
Reply to  KiKi

KiKi, I really don’t appreciate your insights on here, and respect your views, even though I often disagree with you, but do you seriously think this is a “lynch mob”? There is a handful of people posting who are quite upset that the verdict that they didn’t go their way. There is an even smaller number that are (foolishly, I think) hoping that the defendants meet a Dexter-like end. Even figuratively speaking, it’s hard for me to say that this rises to the level of a “lynch mob”.

Bill Orange
Bill Orange
14 years ago
Reply to  Bill Orange

Sorry, that should’ve been “I really DO appreciate your insights on here”.

KiKi
KiKi
14 years ago
Reply to  Bill Orange

Hi BillO – I also greatly appreciate your views, as much as we differ, and you are specifically one of the people I was referring to in an earlier post when I discussed the interesting conversation and opinions that this blog has produced.

That being said, what i have seen over the last few days – culminating today has been anything but a “conversation.”

There are a lot of comments that are far beyond the realm of rational people being upset. Calling the judge an “imbecile,” Asking for her impeachment, threatening the defendants with physical violence, wishing for physical or sexual assaults on the defendants and as you referenced posts relating to the Dexter like demise.

It has been difficult for me to empathize with people who are making these comments. I get they are upset and angry. But we live in a civilized society. And while it is not literally a lynch mob, I do think that what is occurring on this site, in the last several hours has become, in effect, a cyber lynch mob.

I just hope once everyone calms down we can again continue to have some really interesting conversations and the likes of you, Bea, Meto, HoyaLoya, themis and even Chilaw. (as you I am sure have noticed, some of the most vocal and informed regulars are noticeably missing from this conversation, today).

Meto
Meto
14 years ago
Reply to  KiKi

All, but responding to KiKi and BillO and also Bill:

First as one who said I thought this Judge is smart, good and hard-working, let me say that I for one have not changed my mind one whit. Let me add thorough and she appears to have genuinely struggled with this verdict in ways consistent (not bragging here) with my post yesterday in which I suggested that acquittal on all charges was the most likely result, but that very close behind as a potential result would be a mixed verdict. Reasonable doubt is an extraordinary standard and we as a society should be proud, not scorn, it even when it leads to results we don’t personally like.

My point is that late last week most posters appeared to recognize that the result could go either way, a prediction was genuinely not possible. And the result appears to me to have been on a razor’s edge.

While I might have concluded something different on a point here or there from the Judge, I cannot and will not quibble with her decision whether or not I “like” the result is besides the point.

Most interesting to me is her findings of fact (“no unknown intruder” for instance) and what impact (I don’t know) that has as a matter of collateral estoppel in any civil case especially the pending one.

But mostly ever since I actually sat down and read the entire Order (something I urge anyone do before he criticizes Judge Leibowitz), I cannot get this crazy song lyric out of head from “Jesus Christ Superstar” – Judas at the last screams – “Damned for all time!”

Respectfully,

Meto

chilaw79
chilaw79
14 years ago
Reply to  KiKi

I’m here. I am just a little shell shocked.

As I said earlier today, I think two people, looking at the same evidence, can come to different conclusions on guilt or innocence, especially in a circumstantial case. This is why juries deadlock.

I can understand the judge’s verdict. If I were a criminal defense lawyer, I would take great comfort from it. I appreciate the beyond a reasonable doubt standard and I understand the judge’s reliance on the Redbook jury instruction. For the last week of the trial and particularly during the oral argument, the judge expressed some reluctance on convicting all three defendants and, upon reading her opinion, I can see where she finds it better to acquit all than convict one wrongly.

Carolina
Carolina
14 years ago
Reply to  KiKi

Please notice that you are damning all posters because a few say “imbecile” or make facetious remarks about Dexter. You cannot have your high road and eat it, too.

JohnAdams
JohnAdams
14 years ago
Reply to  KiKi

You know, I find your shrill response to the very mild criticism directed at you to be very telling. People are understandably frustrated because even the judge here believes that a guilty man walked out of her courtroom today. Under any reasonable standard, this is a travesty. Certainly, one can argue that it’s a travesty required by our justice system, and that the long term benefits of that system outweigh the immediate cost here. But either way, justice was not served today. This was an outcome rooted in process rather than substance. Most of us accept these process-based outcomes as a necessary evil, but we don’t glory in them like, say, John.

Try having some empathy.

cinnamon
cinnamon
14 years ago
Reply to  JohnAdams

Well said, John Adams.

KiKi
KiKi
14 years ago
Reply to  JohnAdams

I am sorry if my response to you appeared “shrill” – I am not sure you could tell my tone from the post, but I can assure you the remark was anything but flippant. As you can see from my post above, I do believe what has occurred today on this blog and continues to occur is a virtual lynch mob.

I do have empathy for people who I can see a rational reason for their actions. I am having a difficult time empathizing with people who come to a blog dedicated to finding truth for a violent murder and post ridiculous requests for violence out of anger. That is not something I can understand.

Craig
Admin
14 years ago
Reply to  KiKi

“I’m shocked, shocked to find that gambling is going on in here!”

Welcome to the internet Kiki. The discussion and debate here should be judged on its totality over the last 18 months and not an isolated day in which emotions were expected to be running hot.

KiKi
KiKi
14 years ago
Reply to  Craig

Completely agree with you Craig, I made a point to specify that what is happening today is the problem. I have said numerous times that this site has opened up incredibly intellectual debate. What is happening today is not that. It is in my opinion, disgusting. Emotions run high – it does not give people the right to act like barbarians.

addicted lurker
addicted lurker
14 years ago
Reply to  KiKi

And it is probably not helpful to add fuel to the fire with the “lynch mob” analogy. A knowledge of the real history of lynching would make clear the difference between three white men walking free of all charges, after lengthy due process (although practically called guilty by the judge), and a black man being kidnapped from jail and hung to death without any semblance of a trial and often with the complicity of law enforcement personnel.

I, for one, would be grateful no longer to see that particular analogy in play.

mw
mw
14 years ago

Excellent point, addicted lurker.

And I even think “barbarians” may be a bit much. There’s been a couple of posts that maybe crossed the line, but it seems most are just criticizing and/or puzzling over the verdict.

KiKi
KiKi
14 years ago

Actually my knowledge of lynching and the lynch mob is pretty sound – the term actually comes from a VA judge named Charles Lynch who prosecuted and punished (white)British loyals without due process of law. The term lynch mob refers to the group of people judge lynch used to enact vigilante justice on the defendants he perceived guilty. I use it to invoke the images of the town villagers with pitch forks and torches attempting to enact their own “due process.” Secondly the term lynching when referring to the horrors that occurred in 19th century US and onward is a term that civil rights leaders would use to characterize the actions of the KKK and others who took justice into their own hands.

cinnamon
cinnamon
14 years ago
Reply to  KiKi

Having an opinion about a crime and taking justice into your own hands are two different things. The defendents haven’t been lynched by anyone.
So do you see how having an opinion does not equate being part of a lynch mob?

Carolina
Carolina
14 years ago
Reply to  Craig

Are my eyes really brown?

Thank you, craig, for everything you and the editors have done here.

Jo
Jo
14 years ago
Reply to  KiKi

KiKi – If you interpreted my comment about a vigilante ninja (that was later termed Dexter) as a “ridiculous requests for violence”, please read the post again.

If you still get the same interpretation, then I will clarify my views for you:

No, I don’t want to see more violence, against anybody including the defendants. I just want the truth about the murder, like many people who come to this site including yourself.

We may react to the verdict differently. A second of irrational thought was not that unreasonable given the circumstances. At the end of the day, we just want the truth of this heinous murder to come out.

KiKi
KiKi
14 years ago
Reply to  Jo

Jo on 06/29/2010 at 3:23 PM
“Perhaps Dexter will pay the defendants a visit?”

– yes that was one of the quotes U was referring to

Jo
Jo
14 years ago
Reply to  KiKi

Read the rest of my comment following the one sentence you quoted out of context above.

Looks like your emotions were running just as high today as others who were shocked or angered by the verdict.

Maybe we all need to lighten up a bit.

Lurker
Lurker
14 years ago
Reply to  JohnAdams

Right on.

cinnamon
cinnamon
14 years ago
Reply to  KiKi

Wow, your kids must NEVER get in trouble then, if this is your standard.

KiKi
KiKi
14 years ago
Reply to  cinnamon

It’s not my standard, it is the standard developed for our system by a bunch of people a whole lot smarter than me.

cinnamon
cinnamon
14 years ago
Reply to  KiKi

Just curious, if you are so sure of the innocence of the trouple, would you allow your children to go for a sleepover?

Rick
Rick
14 years ago
Reply to  KiKi

Thanks Kiki…but my counter here is, doesn’t common sense tell you that A has paint all over her hands and if B only has paint on her face, then common sense will tell you beyond a resonable doubt the the painted hands put the paint on the painted face.

This is where I’m having a problem that maybe reasonable inferences were not used. Paint on A’s hands and paint on B’s face is evidence that is resonable inference.

By the way, I’ve enjoyed your input here and consider you a valuable asset to this blog for the past 2 months I’ve been reading it. Thanks

KiKi
KiKi
14 years ago
Reply to  Rick

In my scenario above, 1 reasonable inference is that A put the paint on H’s face, Another reasonable inference (albeit less likely, but still reasonable) is that H put the paint on her own face, or 3 (even less likely but still reasonable), my husband, the ninja, came in put paint on H’s face and quickly ran away.

The point is, while there is a most likely scenario – A is guilty – there is a doubt for which i can give a reason (however unlikely that reason is).

This is a simplistic explanation and is probably oversimplifying but your confusion is on par with many jurists, it is not an easy or simple legal standard.

chilaw79
chilaw79
14 years ago
Reply to  KiKi

But would you still tell them to clean up their mess, go to their rooms, and come back when they are ready to apologize for what they have done and tell mommy the truth?

KiKi
KiKi
14 years ago
Reply to  chilaw79

I might even use some questionable interrogation techniques and take away any right to self incrimination.

chilaw79
chilaw79
14 years ago
Reply to  KiKi

I commend you for your flexibility.

I think the lawyers here are more likely to accept the judge’s opinion for what it is. Personally, I am starting to read up on offensive collateral estoppel from a criminal verdict.

Kate
Kate
14 years ago
Reply to  chilaw79

Thanks, Chilaw – I’m anxious to hear about it, as well.

Regards,
Kate

Bea
Bea
14 years ago
Reply to  chilaw79

Chi, do let us know what you find – curious about the findings she made and what can be relied on in the civil case (as I’m sure you are).

Bill
Bill
14 years ago
Reply to  KiKi

Thank you for very rightly calling the group on the “lynch mob” mentality that has been a constant on this site. It reached an obnoxious crescendo last weekend and continues by too many today.

AJ
AJ
14 years ago

Just curious, why wasn’t Joe Price convicted of obstruction of justice?

– Established: JP lied to housemate Sara Morgan, about Michael having a key to the house.
– On video: Joe lies to police about his brother having a key to the house.

Can some explain this? Why didn’t the Judge think this was Obstruction of Justice? JP obstructed police from investigating Michael in a timely manner.

Defense didn’t even contend this, did they? Thoughts?

mw
mw
14 years ago
Reply to  AJ

It’s no crime to lie to Sara Morgan.

And to the officer – did he actually tell the police that Michael did not have a key? Or did he just leave him out of the list of the people that had a key? If it’s the latter, it’s pretty reasonable doubt, IMO, that he just forgot about that, or didn’t tell the police for some other, non-murder-coverup reason.

Carolina
Carolina
14 years ago
Reply to  mw

Did he actually say he wiped up blood? That’s my sticking point.

whodoneit
whodoneit
14 years ago

Here is my biggest problem with the decision. I understand her “math problem,” particularly with respect to the conspiracy charge. As to the obstruction charge, Joe stated he heard a chime from the intruder before the screams and/or grunts and Victor said he heard one afterward. If she is convinced beyond a reasonable doubt that there was no intruder, then they both lied about the chime (clearly with the intent to obstruct justice). The only way they might have been telling the truth in that statement is if the chime were created by Dylan leaving to dispose of evidence and then returning or another person known to them. I don’t see how Victor’s and Joe’s chime statements were not proven to be obstructive beyond a reasonable doubt.

Pete McLeanVa
Pete McLeanVa
14 years ago

Endless thanks to the editors.

If I’m on trial for assaulting the guilty troupe, I hope you, Greg Kirschner, prosecute the the case. The Salahi’s (White House visitors) and I will certainly find and crash the celebration party.

emg
emg
14 years ago

The Judge’s own ruling makes it pretty clear to me that she believes you can not convict of any of the charges without knowing who the murderer is. She acknowledged the meaning of the evidence but kept asking “why”. There could be multiple reasons that they obstructed and conspired and It shoul not matter why.

One of them could have tampered etc because he was the murderer. The others did it because they knew or thought one of the others was the murderer. Or to stretch the point, perhaps they just didn’t want people seeing theire house out of order. The point being the motive should not have to be proved.

I think the Judge made a strong case for guilty but did not have the guts to see it through.

Vince in WeHo
Vince in WeHo
14 years ago

If the government did not prove beyond a reasonable doubt, I guess this was the logical outcome. Still, it’s discouraging to see people go free with blood on their hands.

Anon. in Arlington
Anon. in Arlington
14 years ago

I am just disgusted with “the perfect crime.”

Bill
Bill
14 years ago

This was hardly a perfect crime with all the evidence pointing to the defendants.

Bill Orange
Bill Orange
14 years ago
Reply to  Bill

On that point, we are in complete agree. “The perfect crime” does not involve a body in the guest bedroom.

Bill Orange
Bill Orange
14 years ago
Reply to  Bill Orange

Make that “complete agreement”.

cinnamon
cinnamon
14 years ago

Time will tell if it was the perfect crime.

Carolina
Carolina
14 years ago

Civil court. It’s going to be a whole new ballgame.

Kat1
Kat1
14 years ago

Does anyone here believe that Judge L.’s hands were tied by the defense’s own admission that “they couldn’t prove beyond a reasonable doubt” [from the Final Order], so she has nicely laid the groundwork for future prosecutors’ case for a definite “guilty” when the murder charge is finally brought forth?

Bea
Bea
14 years ago

Much as I believed that Judge Leibovitz would find Joe Price guilty and send him to prison (less certain as to the other two), I respect her decision. She did not have to make clear her findings nor state what she believed to have happened from a moral certainty which did not rise to an evidentiary certainty. I have no doubt that she rendered this decision after considered deliberation and believes it genuinely to be the proper verdict.

What next? If the Zaborsky family was complaining how much this cost them, as I read in an earlier post, then my sense is that there will be little to use on the full-bore civil liability trial. Given that they likely have no personal resources (including that house purchased in Florida that has diminished in value), it’s possible that they’ll put up little fight – or Joe himself could take the lead since it will be difficult for him to find work, at least in the manner in which he was accustomed. I hope that Kathy Wone at least has the opportunity to depose them – despite taking the 5th, which has its own issues in a civil case, there may be some separation between the defendants.

I’ve given up on Zaborsky – he decided to follow Joe’s advice that if they kept moving around the moving target defense would work. Sadly, it did, and as I believe the Judge’s position that as to a moral certainty, these men are guilty – I just hope Victor has to hear those words in his head as he tries to sleep. I have little expectation that Joe Price will give them another thought.

As for Dylan, he will enter and exit with that same shadowy wanderer pose, perhaps be sent off to new adventures, financed by his parents, as a way to keep him from Tacoma.

This day was tough – from the get-go I couldn’t access the server and did my best with Twitter reports from news outlets. And then the simple verdict – not guilty on all counts. I turned inward a bit for simple reflection, then read the opinion. I believe Judge Leibovitz did the best she could given her inner belief system, and I am glad she went the extra mile to disallow the defendants, one and all, from claiming WE WERE FRAMED! IT WAS AN INTRUDER! THE COPS NEVER FOLLOWED UP WITH THE INTRUDER! Sadly, the blood evidence was tainted, an MPD error with serious consequences. In all, a day in which no one will find moral comfort, though the three defendants will be free men – as to this physical movements at the least, and until more is disclosed in the civil trial which may in turn lead to murder charges. Only time and patience will tell.

For some reason, I feel the desire to reach out to my fellow bloggers here and tell them how much they’ve meant to me. Not that it’s over, but a significant chapter is. And always, my heartfelt respect to the Editors who did such an admirable job.

Bea

Anon. in Arlington
Anon. in Arlington
14 years ago
Reply to  Bea

Bea: I always appreciate your thoughtful and insightful posts. Please continue to post as the process moves forward with the civil case.

Craig
Admin
14 years ago

Hey special pal: missed you tons and I hope you’re doing ok.

CDinDC (Boycott BP)
CDinDC (Boycott BP)
14 years ago
Reply to  Bea

Bea,

Thanks for your words. They are always delivered with a spoonful of comfort, and I take my personal comfort in knowing that a legal verdict is by no means a moral compass for right or wrong.

You’re the best. It’s been a pleasure to have been in “the trenches” with you.

Onward.

CD

cinnamon
cinnamon
14 years ago
Reply to  Bea

Thank you Bea. I’m glad the judge went the extra mile to prevent them from claiming they were framed as well.

CDinDC (Boycott BP)
CDinDC (Boycott BP)
14 years ago
Reply to  Bea

PS…my partner, who is an attorney who spent many years in the Attorney General’s office (of another state) was GOBSMACKED at the verdict.

Just sayin’

🙂

chilaw79
chilaw79
14 years ago
Reply to  Bea

Bea,

I thought you might be interested in the local television coverage of the verdict. The reporters followed each of the three defendants down the street, asking for their reactions, and each of them simply looked ahead and said nothing. One attorney did get between his client and the news reporters and said “No comment.” Bernie Grimm pontificated a bit for the cameras. The parents were a bit more strident in their approach, asking the reporters to leave them alone. I think it was Victor’s mother who asked people to remember Kathy Wone.

Meanwhile, the lawyers from Covington said their case begins this afternoon.

Bea
Bea
14 years ago
Reply to  chilaw79

Anon, Chilaw, Craig, Cinn, CD, it’s been quite a day. Appreciate all your comments; appreciate you (and many others here). It is interesting to know that the defendants feel sufficiently bitch-slapped to be prevented from doing cartwheels (I intend “bitch slap” to be reverential and with good humor). I suppose Victor comes by his manners naturally – unfortunately, his did not mind his manners that night or since.

NOW THAT PRICE HAS BEEN AQUITTED, that nasty Catch-22 is OVER, and he can spend the next weeks at MPD telling them all he knows about how to catch the killer . . .

gertiestn
gertiestn
14 years ago
Reply to  Bea

Bea, I kept looking for a post from you today and am glad now to have found your words.

No cartwheels here, either.

Devin in Arizona
Devin in Arizona
14 years ago
Reply to  gertiestn

Thank you Bea! I agree with everything you stated in your 4:48 pm comment. Thanks also to the wonderful editors and many other commenters here. I can hardly express my deep appreciation to all of you who have direct knowledge of legal, medical and psychological issues. I do not think this was a “complete” victory for the trouple, however I can’t help but think an immense wave of relief is washing through them right now. I am somewhat fearful a man as obviosuly narcissistic and controlling as JP will cross the line again. My heart goes out to Kathy Wone today.
RIP Robert-people like you are a treasure beyond words! I cried when I watched the memorial video the editors did.

Carolina
Carolina
14 years ago
Reply to  chilaw79

Can this be found online anywhere?

Clio
Clio
14 years ago
Reply to  Bea

Bea, thanks for your words of wisdom as always. Justice will prevail in the end, just as the server eventually came up today: the process, so loved by Lynn, is just frustrating and heartbreaking. No cross, no crown, though!

Kate
Kate
14 years ago
Reply to  Bea

Thank you, Bea – thoughtful and heartfelt response to the events of today.

I agree with warmest regards,
Kate

gina a.
gina a.
14 years ago
Reply to  Bea

The whole time I was reading the comments earlier today, I was thinking, ok, Carolina, chilaw, Bill O where’s Bea? Thank goodness you showed up! I was starting to worry that we might not be able to read your thoughts and always on the mark comments. I am still not believing what happened today. I look forward to justice finding these three someday, no matter how long, no matter what rock they try to hide under.

Carolina
Carolina
14 years ago
Reply to  gina a.

I’d like to see our Former Sex Criminal… you know, the acronym prosecutor. Unfortunately, I think she’d had enough of the superiority complexes exhibited by some.

cinnamon
cinnamon
14 years ago
Reply to  Carolina

I agree. I’d like to hear her thoughts as well.

AnnaZed
AnnaZed
14 years ago
Reply to  Bea

Thanks for your thoughtful post Bea, you are a beacon.

I too have feelings of disappointment, but my respect for the judge is somehow not altered. I read her decision, and I believe her.

I think that Joe’s real stroke of genius was when he realized that the 911 call must take place if not immediately then soon after Robert was killed. It was imperative to in a sense break the chain of custody of Robert’s person from the three of them to include any number of other well intentioned medical personnel who by their actions would obscure the evidence that existed of the attack itself, most particularly the injection sites.

The destruction of the blood evidence with the Ashley’s Reagent was was gift from the MPD to these men, a flat out gift. Joe’s heart must have soared when he learned of it.

I will say that I do not understand Judge Leibowitz’s reference to the emails. When were they ever entered as evidence? Where was the Blackberry? I was taken aback by that.

BadShoes
BadShoes
14 years ago
Reply to  AnnaZed

I can only guess that the blackberry evidence was in the mound of stuff that was stipulated right at the end.

Judge Liebovitz then relied (incorrectly, IMHO, since she said “transmission”) on the unsent blackberry message to set the earliest possible moment (11:08pm) for Mr. Wone’s murder. If the timestamp or provenance of the unsent message is questionable, that strengthens the argument (primarily based on Mr. Wone’s clothes and the state of the bed) that Mr. Wone never showered, and never went to bed.

Bea
Bea
14 years ago
Reply to  AnnaZed

AZ, the respect is mutual. I completely agree that the Ashley’s Reagent debacle was the biggest gift ever to these particular criminal defendants. Joe Price knew the blood evidence was going to take down his house of cards, and if I may use two cliches in one sentence, he began gilding the lily right away in telling Tara Ragone “it’s not tampering to wipe up blood when you’re freaking out”. Since he hadn’t mentioned it to the cops, it must’ve hit him right afterward and he had to do something to begin the spin. . .

Tribe97
Tribe97
14 years ago

JMO, but I think that a lot of the anger towards the judge today is mis-directed. I think we all knew that there has always been a problem of proof in this case, as in no one knows for sure *who* did what, just that it was at least one of the three (more likely one or two of two possibilities). She did what was legally correct here.

I think the anger comes from the loss of hope that these awful, awful, people might be punished today, and the realization that today they again got away with something. The remaining fact, as inferred from the judge’s statement today, is that one, two, or three of the defendants not only killed Robert Wone, but in so doing, likely restrained and molested him prior to his death. What kind of despicable human being does such a thing, whether the death is intentional or not? And the further fact is that it is also likely that at least one of the defendants knows that the other(s) committed such a horrific act, and yet is covering up for them. To be honest, I don’t know which is worse to me, to be such a monster that you commit the act(s) that led to an alleged friend’s death, or to be such a selfish, weak-willed pathetic individual that you would cover-up for said monster(s) and allow an innocent’s death to go unpunished while his family suffers. I could say a lot more about how disgusted I am by the selfishness that has lead at least 1/3 of the “trouple” to keep silent at great cost to the Wone family, but will just leave this matter by saying that those involved in the cover-up are not a whole lot better than the murderer(s), in my book.

Carolina
Carolina
14 years ago
Reply to  Tribe97

I agree that the anger is misdirected. She’s an able judge and had a mentally taxing case for even the best of minds. She found how she saw fit, and did so by eliminating any doubt that she wasn’t fool enough to believe the bs put forth by the defendants.

I personally think she went way over the “reasonable doubt” line, but I also believe that is because she could not assess who among them was guilty.

Bea
Bea
14 years ago
Reply to  Carolina

The Judge did what she felt compelled by honor to do – she found the defendants “morally guilty” but the evidence was not “beyond a reasonable doubt.” While the defendants are glad to be acquitted, this decision all but prevents them from claiming that they were framed or that this completely exonerates them. The Judge was clear that there was no unknown intruder, and likewise she was clear that Michael Price was not to blame – the grand implication that one or more of the defendants is the murderer(s) cannot be denied.

I do wish people here would breathe in and out – both “sides” need to take stock. To claim that we who post here are a ‘lynch mob’ is ridiculous – clearly from the Judge’s opinion one can deduce that it’s hardly “unreasonable” for many of us to have believed – and continue to believe – that these men are guilty of the charges at least in the ‘moral’ sense.

cinnamon
cinnamon
14 years ago
Reply to  Bea

Again. Thank you. I agree.

anonymous
anonymous
14 years ago

Awful. So sorry to learn of this. In reading the judge’s verdict, it seems to make clear that she doubts their truthfulness, but she is charged with upholding the law as written. In my mind, her verdict speaks less to the innocence or guilt of the three individuals, as it does to the poor job the prosecution did in presenting its case. It is sad that so often our justice system relies on the skill of individual attorneys alone ~ more a test of how well an attorney can argue his/her case than whether the party is guilty or not. I just pray that additional evidence does not surface that proves their guilt and/or cover-up.

Lurker
Lurker
14 years ago
Reply to  anonymous

There is still the possibility of a murder trial, so I think we do hope for additional evidence to come to light, perhaps through the civil trial.

Carolina
Carolina
14 years ago
Reply to  anonymous

I think the prosecution did what they could with what they had. To reiterate, if only one of the defendants had been home, it would have been a whole different finding.

Kat1
Kat1
14 years ago

excuse me, I meant the “prosecution’s” admission instead of “defense’s”

Steve
Steve
14 years ago
Reply to  Kat1

In other news, Price still has his license to practice law in the District.

mw
mw
14 years ago
Reply to  Steve

I wonder if that will still be the case for long. I believe the bar can consider uncharged/aquitted conduct.
|
Regardless, I’d say big firm and government law are out. I bet he goes head-first into gay equality stuff full time, and we all vomit a few years from now when the “vindicated, he moved on with his life” hits USA Today in a few years.

Lurker
Lurker
14 years ago
Reply to  mw

I think we will see him disbarred…if not, I see a possible career for him in criminal defense. After all, he is well-versed in how to get away with murder.

Bill
Bill
14 years ago
Reply to  mw

Of course, he has to move on with his life. What else would he do? Certainly, he is pleased with the verdict.

Steve
Steve
14 years ago
Reply to  mw

Someone will have to initiate a complaint against him, and yes, they can disbar you for things that are definitely not against the law, like putting your own money into your own trust account. I would think lying to the police in a murder investigation would fit the bill, but you never know – the bar association tends to ignore anyone with a high profile.

chilaw79
chilaw79
14 years ago
Reply to  Steve

Ask Scooter Libby and Eliot Richardson if they feel that way.

Bea
Bea
14 years ago
Reply to  mw

Joe Price will have grave difficulty getting a job with that will entice sparkly kitties or pay for $1M+ homes.

His time in big-time litigation at a top firm is over. Even firms willing to consider his resume in these tough times will be looking hard at that big lapse in his resume and will do digging, so no dice for resuming his prior life. Perhaps he’ll pay his rent doing discount temp work or going into criminal defense (at the seedier level) or chasing ambulances. Unless Bernie promised him a job.

Wonder how long before the sparkly kitty he has has scampered away. It’s 3:30 Pacific Time, maybe not until dinner is over.

Bill Orange
Bill Orange
14 years ago
Reply to  Bea

“Unless Bernie promised him a job.”

I doubt that. I’m fairly sure Joe made a supreme effort to impress Bernie. I’m also fairly sure that Bernie wasn’t very impressed.

Bea
Bea
14 years ago
Reply to  Bill Orange

BillO, but what about Joe’s ability to attract more sparkly kitties?

Bill Orange
Bill Orange
14 years ago
Reply to  Bea

I think Bernie would hire Princess Sparkle Kitty before he hired Joe Price.

Carolina
Carolina
14 years ago
Reply to  Bill Orange

I cannot imagine Bernie tying himself to that sparkly kitty tale. Stranger things, though…

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