Government’s Oppositional Motion to Acquit Highlights Defendants’ Relationship
In AUSA Glenn Kirschner’s closing argument he started off strong by saying the defendants story of how the events occurred on the night Robert was murdered was not consistent with”normal human action.” He says that when Joe and Victor discovered Robert’s body “slaughtered in your guest bedroom, what is the very next thing you would do, but make a beeline to check to see if your loved one was OK.” As we know, the loved one he is talking about is Dylan Ward, who was according to their statements, asleep in his bedroom.
(Read the Defense’s Motion to Acquit, and the Government’s Opposition.)
Kirschner knows Ward is the focus of Price’s “obsessive” love because, in part, of the e-mails and cards between the Swann Street housemates that are included in the governments opposition to the Defense’s motion for judgment of acquittal. They paint a picture of Victor Zaborsky focused on building a family with Joe Price, while Price is focused on the “excitement” and “magic” Dylan Ward brought to his life, and how he sought ways to keep Dylan interested in him by adding another partner to their sexual relationship.
As this Swann Street family dynamic was rapidly reaching a boil in the summer of 2006, Robert Wone asked two friends if he could stay at their home on August 2nd, 2006; Joe Price was the first to reply, “yes.”
What did those cards and e-mails say?
The first card in the government’s exhibit is from Victor Zarborsky to Joe Price on March 24, 2006:
Happy Anniversary Joe. I hope you know how much I love you. You mean the world to me. I can’t imagine my life without you… Let’s celebrate together next year. I think it is good to plan. With all my heart. Love, Victor.”
It seems consistent with Thomas Connolly’s characterization of his client as a “kind and gentle” man. In that same card, Zaborsky also details the importance of family to him, and what he and Joe Price have built:
We’ve built a family together with the boys, [the boys’ mothers], your brother, and my family. Family bonds are very strong, and I am very happy that you and I have forged that bond.
Zarborsky’s anniversary card to Price raises several questions about the status of their relationship. Were Joe and Victor not celebrating their anniversary together in 2006? Why did Zaborsky find it so important to look ahead to next year’s anniversary? Was it was because they were apart, or was Victor just trying to get on Joe’s dance card, if you will, a year in advance to celebrate their anniversary? Was it passive aggressive wording on Zaborsky’s part to throw in the wording “celebrate together next year” indicating that he was upset that they were apart this year? Whatever the case, it shows a man completely devoted to his partner, and who believes the family bond is what they shared most deeply.
Price’s relationship with Ward is an entirely different story.
In a 2005 card from Price to Ward, the government notes that Ward brought somethings special to Price’s life:
“this card” — with the picture of a sparkly cat lying across a sofa, with the words “Tres Chic!” above — ‘captures you and what you give to my life — color — attitude — fear — smartassedness — and excitement. You are magic to me,and I know in this crazy and hectic life we live (or that lives us) I don’t say that enough. So let’s make more time for us to live and love! All my love, Joe.”
Note how Joe Price refers to Ward with the dark arts term of “magic” – a transformative act, changing from one state or condition to another. For Joe Price, Dylan Ward held a powerful allure.
Yet, according to the e-mails, that feeling was not necessarily returned. In fact, 42 days before Robert Wone’s murder, it seems Dylan Ward had become uninterested in Joe Price.
In a June 20, 2006 e-mail, the government writes that Price ‘was “scared and upset” by Ward’s apparent disinterest in him, noting that “it is nevertheless nerve racking and [he had] spent the past couple of days obsessing about why this happened and how, hunting for some clue or understanding, but finding none … Guess we wait and see what happens and hope for the best.’
Every thing we have come to learn about Joe Price is that he is not a patient man, but rather someone oriented to take control of events. In the case of Dylan Ward’s dwindling interest in him, he didn’t take his own prescribed “wait-and-see” approach.
In an e-mail dated “a few weeks” after the June 20, 2006 e-mail, “Price suggested that he and Ward invite a third — not Zaborsky — for a sexual encounter:
Price wrote, “Hey love-of-my-life, I’m happy to give a third a try but only if you would like to try it. If ‘scary’ means you are interested but that it is a little intimidating (I think it is) then we can give it a try, and I would think that while Vic is gone, maybe next Thursday evening?
To which Dylan Ward replied, “yes, intimidating. But we can try.Can’t know what its like without trying.”
In these e-mails, you see in Joe Price focused solely on himself, and his needs — namely the excitement that Dylan Ward provides to him. Price has little concern about Dylan Ward’s needs or concerns, it is all about what is happening to him, and he is going about solving this problem. In Dylan’s response we see someone who appears willing, but not jumping at the chance either.
The portrait painted by the Swann Street housemates’ e-mails that summer is somewhat at odds with downstairs tenant Sarah Morgan’s testimony when she said she saw no “behavior that would indicate any jealousy, or disinterest, resentment” between the Swann Street housemates in June and July 2006. She said all was good.
-posted by David
[Ed. note: We will shortly be posting both the defense’s motion on acquittal and the government’s response, mentioned above. They are both tight and cogent reads that summarize the two sides’ cases efficiently…in some ways the book-ends to 2008’s first indictment of Dylan Ward. Scribd is acting up a little today. -Doug]
“…the dark arts term of ‘magic’…”
give me a break. i hate how you guys slip stuff like this in and still claim to be unbiased
Severus Snape is manning the copy desk today, and… well, you know how he is….
Snape just texted me and although he’ll never fish for a compliment, he asked if we’ll ever see one single, positive word or even syllable from you by the time the verdict hits on Tuesday. I told him that no potion known to man or wizard will likely make that happen.
But he thanks you for reading in any event then later quipped, “You cannot spell ‘annoy’ without anoninny.” Evil and clever that one is.
Ninny is crotchey.
My Log saw something… apparently Craig was waiting for the tea.
Lmao
Anoninny: The evidence that Craig is unbiased is that he didn’t take my advice to ban you.
Nowhere in David’s post does he use the phrase “…the dark arts term of ‘magic’….” You, apparently, have the magical ability to see things that aren’t there.
because they took it out, Einstein…
They should take you it also.
I mean they should take you out also.
… like magic!
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
No, they didn’t take it out. It’s in there. I just don’t see how the phrase suggests bias.
You’re trying to pick a needless fight.
Yes. It is there. So what? I agree that anoninny is trying to start a fight.
a little off topic, but…maybe I have been in DC too long, but when five 40-ish adults with jobs live in a $1.5 million home and people are impressed, I think – big effing deal!! That’s $300K per person at the SS townhouse or about average in these necks of the woods. I am also not so impressed by the “Mercedes Mercedes” neighborhood with poor a/c. I’ll take my apt any day over that mess and enjoy alot more square footage per person and my perfectly functioning cool a/c!
Not sure what you are talking about. Three people lived at the Swann St. townhouse, not five. Dylan did not make anywhere near 300K. I doubt Victor made 300K. Joe likely made 300k, though law firms sometimes have various tiers of partnership. He may have been paying into the partnership as a new partner and taking home less than 300k. But, they weren’t all making 300k.
They were doing well, but not as well as you portray.
Victor could certainly be making in the 250k and up range at a big job like that. Dylan we know is more like a line item in the expenses column.
Dylan comes from money. I believe there is even Bumblebee Tuna money there. I have always suspected he is less spoiled child than trust fund baby.
Oh I recognize what Dylan is. In the course of my expensive private education and the decades since I have known many of these sensitive, talented, aimless, entitled drifters. I might even be categorized loosely as being one myself. The one’s that come from the really serious bucks tend to be the most dysfunctional (hence my relative sanity maybe).
I would be interested in a link to the Bumble Bee money as it relates to the Wards, but being all that as it may by 2007 Dylan was a prostitute with an online ad stating that $90 an hour was the going rate. I don’t think that prior to this show of support from Dad on the legal bills that Dad was giving him much in the way of an allowance. If he had a trust fund he had already spent it or he wouldn’t be mooching off of Joe and Victor and living in one room. I have four different people in my circle of peers who spent all of their trust funds by the time they reached 35 years old, in one case his own trust fund and a second one he received when his sister was killed worth several hundreds of thousands were both squandered in less than a decade.
Isn’t a trust fund baby a kind of spoiled child?
I’m not convinced that Dylan was a free-loader. A regular out-call massage can bring in $150 per hour. With extra, I assume a good bit more. 15 years ago, a dom I knew said she earned $400 per stint. So, if he was a hard worker, he could easily be bringing in well over $100k.
AnnaZed,
As a trade association hack myself at the equivalent level in the organization as Victor was at the time of the murder, I can assure he was nowhere near making 250 K. He might be breaking 100 if he was lucky. that would be my guess.
David, co-ed.
Really? Thanks for that info. I guess I was thinking more along the lines of Madison Avenue salaries, not the same thing I guess. This if true would go more towards everyone being more or less a dependent of Joe’s.
I meant portion of a mortage not their salary. They had a tenant in the basement. so I guess 4, not 5. I agree with you – I don’t think they were all that impressive – jobs or townhouse.
Someone had a dream that –
Dylan Ward is the “intruder.” He intruded on Robert Wone, and murdered an unwilling participant in his evil deviant conduct. Joe knows it and so does Victor. Joe is more involved than Victor. Victor=fear factor. Joe=calculating accomplice.
Dylan did it because of his primal lust. He recruited Joe to “cover” the scene evidence. Victor is terrified. He is in deeper than his soul can grip. He craves an escape but the chilling “Joe element” freezes him.
Joe deceptively believes that he is untouchable but he is not.
Somebody will cave….
Behind the scenes what has progressed:
Hairline fractures….
Cracks in the foundation….
Gaping holes….
Crater gulf….
Expect revelations from the canary…..
Right on, Sandra. I agreed with your analysis 110%!!!!!
“I would think that while Vic is gone, maybe next Thursday evening?”
This seems very telling. Victor is being kept out of it.
From the very start, I’ve felt that Victor coming home early on August 2nd was his plan – a way to find out what Joe was up to. I don’t think he trusted Joe but he was still in love with the man.
It appears he also shows distrust of Joe when he rushes to the gym. He didn’t find Joe at the gym. Was Joe at the gym, earlier, to work out, or did he make a brief stop at the gym to score something to use on Robert that night?
I’ve had the same thoughts Bill2. Not so much the came home on purpose part, but definitely the part about rushing to the gym to find Joe and the possibility Joe went to the gym to score a little something. I think Joe may have taken drugs that night and the combination of drugs, sex addiction and “marital discord” was deadly. IMHO
I’m with Bill2 on all of it. My recollection is that Victor didn’t tell Joe he was coming home early until after the plane landed. Even if he just got lucky and caught an earlier flight, there’s no way he wouldn’t phone ahead. This isn’t the 1980s–everyone has a cell phone, and I think it’s pretty standard to call ahead and let people know you’re going to be arriving earlier or later than expected. You do this in the airport before you leave, in large part because there isn’t much else to do. The fact that Victor didn’t do this says a lot to me.
Maybe that would explain the abbreviated response of the whole evening. Originally they knew Victor was coming home at eleven so had to do whatever they were going to do quickly – pictures or whatever.
I mean short/quick time frame by abbreviated response.
I remember in the original plan, Robert expected to be there earlier than 10:30 and later on that day he called Joe to pull back the arrival time.
This is one time I almost hate that we were right. It all makes even more sense now.
“almost hate that we were right” pulleeze!
Is this all you have to do? You’re not even a good troll.
Once again Carolina with the vicious talk.
Can you play mom somewhere else? Did you note what I responded to?
Wow this is all new to me. Too bad the Judge could not allow it, because it’s pretty clear Joe was desperate to keep Dylan, and he was willing to ‘sacrifice’ Robert to do it–though not in the way it turned out. Robert was just an opportunity for Joe.
She did allow it. It was stipulated into the record as evidence.
Really… of course it’s all circumstantial, but it sure points to the scenario that some us figured/feared had come to pass from the beginning.
“Simmering Cauldron”…yes it seems like it was. I’d really like to know more about what the mood in the house was when Robert walked in.
I do, too, Cinnamon, but I love the Editors’ choice of that “steamy” graphic above with the three womanly wisps — it captures the volatile dystopia that probably was 1509 Swann.
I love the tease: “What was in those cards and emails?”
How could you not turn the page!
“Price wrote, ”Hey love-of-my-life, I’m happy to give a third a try but only if you would like to try it. If ’scary’ means you are interested but that it is a little intimidating (I think it is) then we can give it a try, and I would think that while Vic is gone, maybe next Thursday evening?”
Here’s what jumps out at me about this email……”while Vic is gone… .”
While Victor is gone. Hmmm…..so did Joe typically instigate, initiate sexual events when Victor was away? Victor was SUPPOSED to be away on night of Robert’s murder. It’s been posited by numerous posters that a sexual encounter involving Robert was planned, based on Sarah’s decision to stay away that night.
This plays into that kind of scenario. But Victor came home unexpectedly that day, so maybe Joe decided to proceed with the plan anyway.
I’ve always been of the opinion that while Victor was upstairs, Joe made an unwelcomed advance on Robert. Perhaps Joe wanted to make Robert a third participant. Robert rebuffed the advance. And violence insued.
it’s also been posited by posters that Dylan was interested in Asian men. and again, posited that Price wanted to involve Robert for Dylan’s pleasure. This seems completely plausible given Joe’s concern about losing Dylan.
Things that make you go “hmmmm.”
From the beginning I’ve felt that Victor was the innocent bystander in Mr. Wone’s murder, and that Dylan had instigated something that he and Joe participated in.
Based on the e-mails, my stand on Victor remains unchanged. However, I now think that Joe instigated something to keep Dylan interested. To maintain the magic.
Agree 100%
It’s always been my opinion that Joe was the instigator, and that Dylan was coerced participant.
The emails show Dylan’s tentative feelings about Joe’s sexual desires. It’s been said that Dylan was mild-mannered. Doesn’t strike me as the agressive type, nor the type of person that could sustain an interest in dominant SM behavior.
Yes, this confirms Culuket as the maelstrom, and Dyl as the quirky satellite whom Joe imagined as exciting (well, at least more exciting than his nest-building “wife”.)
That creepy reference to “magic” makes me think, for whatever reason, of those late 1990s Old Navy commercials with venerable fashionista Carrie Donovan and Magic the Dog: “Magic likes to watch!”
Dylan may have grown bored with Joe – being the “Dom” of a “Sub” who (IMHO) was desperately trying to control the sexual/emotional aspects of their relationship may have extinguished the excitement for Dylan. But then Dylan seemed to be dependent on Joe (financially at least) – did he want to leave but couldn’t afford to? And then to have Victor worried about keeping Joe’s love . . . It seems like a very strange and uncomfortable dynamic for all of the trouple during the summer of 2006. I agree that Dylan’s email suggests that he is not an experienced Dom. That said, it is very interesting how Victor and Dylan appear in court to be so chummy (according to comments by readers who have been in court).
I’ve always thought that Dylan practiced dominant s/m FOR Joe. It’s not something he ever did before and, probably, would not do after. Afterall, he “schooled” himself with manuals.
Dylan had a history of morphing into something after meeting people that influenced him. (culinary school/literary degree) I posted quite a while back that the majority of Dylan’s morphing experiences were positive, until he met Joe. Or so it seems to me. Dylan always seemed impressionable to me (based on testimony by people that knew him). Joe had him morph into something against his core personality. Quiet, mild mannered.
Looks like Dylan was coming to the end of his enchantment for Joe. None too soon, but a little too late.
Good point about morphing/studying. Dylan seems like such a lost soul. Maybe that is what he and Victor have in common. BTW – this is not to suggest that I have any sympathy for Dylan in connection with what happened to Robert. Just a little for Victor, but VERY little.
What do we make of Dr. Ward’s seeming findness for JP?
I have no insight there Carolina, among other potential factors that would mitigate against a friendly alliance between these two men by all accounts Dr. Ward is a Republican. I don’t know what to make of it.
Dr. Ward is a smart bright man and may understand that, right now, the only standing between his son going to prison, even or not, is the trio sticking together. He will support all. But if there is a guilty verdict, things might change dramatically.
David, co-ed
Interesting take, David. I’ve joked often that Needham owes Joe for keeping Dylan as far away from Tacoma as possible, but it seemed odd to me. If Dylan *is* completely innocent as his parents seem to believe, I’m surprised they have not tried to separate Dylan from Joe, at least in the courtroom. I guess there was an attempt, whether through their prompting or not, we’ll never know.
He has always reminded me of Frank Abagnale, only significantly less successful. I can just hear his parents and teachers telling him, “You could be anything you wanted if you’d just *apply* yourself!”
Re: Dylan as “Quiet, mild mannered”. In light of some comments recently posted by court attenders on this site re: Dylan’s cold and detached demeanor in court, I looked at his picture again and I got chills – his eyes look so . . . I can’t think of any word except “scary”, and kind of “dead”. But people who are capable of such morphing can take on many roles, and very convincingly. Joe must have been devastated to feel Dylan pulling away.
I agree about Dylan’s eyes in the photo. Something is really disturbing about his vacant stare. What is that photo from? Looks like he’s on some kind of drug.
“Vacant” – perfect word!! I always assumed it was when he was taken into custody in Florida. Eds – can you clarify?
I found Joe to be much creepier and scary looking in court. Dylan seemed to listen with more attention but had a blank affect. Joe seemed agitated and was constantly shaking his legs.
I base my quiet and mild-mannered description on some personal testimony given by someone that had actually attended gatherings at the 3-some’s home on occasion. This individual described dylan as being quiet…would make a joke here and there…and if I remember correctly, fastidious.
That description hit home with me. Being someone that was always very shy, I could identify with his behaviors at a party. Quiet, I’d throw out the funny one-liner here and there, and I’d tidy and help in the kitchen so I didn’t have to throw myself into the mix of the party itself.
Cold/vacant could be scared and focused. Shy people can put up a good front to disguise the fact they are mortified inside.
to echo KK, my opinions don’t represent symphathy. These are simply beliefs based on information gathered here.
These descriptions of the defendants in court are fascinating, thank you to those who have attended. Joe’s pent up energy, Dylan’s hidden feelings. What most disturbs me about this angle is how Dylan’s mother seems to have no clue about who and what her son really is. But that is true about a lot of mothers in these situations. And hard to think of mr BDSM master’s mother as a ‘ninny’, isn’t it?
I still don’t have a clear read on Dylan. He’s been described as everything from a gullible loner to a total psychopath, and I can’t figure out which one’s closer to the truth.
This new information cast alot of light on the chumminess of Victor and Dylan in court. If Victor at some point realized that Dylan was less attached to Joe than the other way around, and was tiring of the relationship but having a hard time extricating himself, it would be natural to feel some alliance with Dylan in the face of ‘difficult, demanding’ Joe. Victor’s naturally sympathetic nature might make this easy; not to mention the prospect of being there to comfort Joe after his upcoming loss. And from Dylan’s side, as a “lost soul” (per KKinCA’s characterization) he might especially welcome Victor’s support.
Yes, exactly, Donna H. The wives’ club has already started to form, I am afraid: look out, Culuket!
DonnaH – very well said. That makes a lot of sense. It feeds Victor’s mothering/nurturing nature, and Dylan has some type of anchor to which to attach. I wonder how Joe feels about it. Jealous (re: Dylan)? Relieved (re: Victor)? Or maybe he is too focused on himself to care (which would make a lot of sense given the situation he is in).
The email does show VZ to be devoted to JP, and for the first time I felt sad for him, but anyone’s sympathies or lack thereof don’t matter in this case: VZ stopped being an “innocent bystander” with his 911 comments and post-Mercedes visit comments and behavior thereafter. After that, he became a co-conspirator with JP and DW.
I agree with you Susan. Guilt is shared by all of them…just different degrees.
yes agreed CD, this correspondence really confirms my suspicions.
Please tolerate my wanderings, or better yet, scroll by. I’m thinking aloud and trying to make sense of those thoughts.
I really don’t think Joe had the balls to proposition Robert. I’ve thought a lot about it, in no small part because I tend to put a lot of store in how you and a few others view things, but I can’t *feel* it. However…
I think Joe is a lot more like a Tourist in Kinkland. They went about collecting all the “really cool stuff” and packed it in Dylan’s room. They read and marked the manuals, almost as if they were shopping in the exotic markets of a remote civilization. When the vacation was over, Dylan was ready to move on. Joe wanted to make sure he went, too, and the best way to be included was to act as tour director to the next destination.
I could not believe Joe was stupid enough to think he could talk Robert into a tryst, but the more I think about that sparkly cat card, the more I’m inclined to wonder. Could he have made a sloppy come on and then gotten paranoid that Robert would humiliate and embarrass him among their mutual friends? Was it misplaced rage at the prospect of Dylan walking out on him?
I can’t believe that, either. I can’t see Robert as that type to do such a thing, and surely Joe would see him the same way. More importantly, was that enough to make someone plunge a knife into Robert 3 times? To stand by and allow Robert to expire so Joe’s reputation remained unsullied?
I know I’m like a broken record, but I am more inclined to think they had something planned that both Joe and Dylan thought would be harmless and undetectable. This is one reason I am so enamored of the photography scenario. It would be “edgy” and perfectly safe, a dark secret between them so long as Robert didn’t wake up while they were playing Mapplethorpe. In the morning, nothing would have changed. No harm, no foul.
Would having to face Robert if he woke up be enough to drive someone to murder? I really don’t know. Probably not, if they’d had time to consider it rationally.
So what would be enough to cause someone to take up a knife? We still have the possibility that they thought he was dead from something else, presumably an OD, but what else?
Carolina, you know there is a joke in the gay male world, ‘what’s the difference between a straight guy and a gay guy? A six-pack’ (I’m not sure of the exact common phrasing). I think Joe may have been arrogant enough that he thought if he drugged Robert he could ‘turn him to the dark side.’ and at the same time re kindle Dylan’s interest. Perhaps they thought, few things more exciting than turning an attractive straight man.
We called that The Six Pack Bi Guy, and we knew even in college those were a dangerous breed.
After marriage, though, another variety of six-pack tends to disappear in many men. The only guys with six-packs (as in abs) in my collegiate circle (ten years after graduation) happened to be the confirmed bachelors of whatever sexuality. Look at what “civil union” may have done to Joe’s figure!
That saying is a male arrogance thing about the ability to seduce anyone. Straight men often think that the difference between a straight chick and a lesbian chick is a bottle of wine. (I am quoting in referring to women as chicks.) That is, they think that they can seduce anyone regardless of her orientation, just as the gay men being quoted think that they can seduce anyone regardless of his orientation.
Few things are more exciting to some straight men than the prospect of turning an attractive lesbian.
This is only marginally relevant to what actually happened at 1509.
Here’s the important part: “if they’d had time to consider it rationally.”
If they were high as kites, then nothing rationally took place. If they were using something to knock out Robert for a few hours, no telling what they could have been sniffing or huffing at the same time. Under those circumstances, they could have given Robert an overdose of something or thought that he died from something they gave him. I doubt that there was a lot of rational thinking that night.
Don’t you think the police would have known if the trouple were on drugs that night? I realize that may be giving the MPD more credit than due, but still . . . Are the sniffing/huffing drugs that have been referred to on this site short-acting and don’t impact the eyes’ dialation? (Apologize for my ignorance, but I was an 80’s girl and am much more familiar with coke and know very little about huffing or what is snorted these days!).
Well the EMT first responder guy with many years of experience who said the hairs on the back of his neck stood on end, apparently thought that something very strange was going on
Yes and Joe didn’t look at the EMT, he slinked off sideways. Many people on drugs do not like to make eye contact. Also they mention alot of over the counter meds that they took perhaps in an effort to deflect attention or explain odd behavior.
I wish they were tested.
Thanks TK and Cinnamon – very good points. But what about the face-to-face interviews. I suppose the drugs (assuming drugs were used) would have worn off without leaving obvious signs? I just think that the detectives would have been on high alert given the circumstances at the house. I think the trouple may have been asked about alcohol and said they shared one bottle of wine. And to Cinnamon’s point, there was mention of OTC meds taken. Thanks for the responses.
People have proposed that they may have been “high as kites”. I am not familiar with all drugs and the amount of time it takes to come down from being “high as a kite”, but I am familiar with a few.
I do not think they could have been high as a kite and come down before their interrogations. Now maybe they could have been slightly high and come down.
Death, murder, mayhem and fear of very long prison sentences will make one come down very quickly.
I still go back to the needle marks and Robert’s seamen in the wrong place. This could be the link everyone is looking for.
Carolina,
I think you are right about the tourists in kinkland. I had always kinda felt like they collected alot of that because they had the money to. Kinda like when someone gets interested in a new sport, like cycling for example. They buy all the cool gear and then go on 1 or 2 rides and then it’s over. The stuff ends up in the corner of the basement.
Anyway, I lean toward the theory that Robert was drugged so that Joe and Dylan could have a little fun with a third party…not Victor. I think that Carolina’s theory of a photography/video session is plausible as well. Something went wrong and they thought they had OD’d him. I think they probably also took some drugs since they indicated in the emails that they were a little intimidated and this would loosen them up a bit. This would also explain their bizarre behavior when the EMTs arrived and the craziness of the plan that they hatched to cover for this turn of events.
They couldn’t call 911 to try to save Robert’s life from the overdose because it would become apparent that he had been drugged. So, they had no choice but to deal with it themselves. I believe that if this was a consensual act, they would have called 911 right away and dealt with the fallout later. I don’t think it was consensual and I think that was the motivator for everything else that happened after.
Maybe the needle marks were an attempt to get the drugs out of his system. Maybe they thought that if Robert was already dead at least they could try to save themselves from getting caught drugging and raping their friend. I know it sounds a little crazy but if they were high, this may have seemed like a really smart idea and their only option.
Others have noted how long it would take to drain that much blood out. Maybe they too realized that it was taking too long so they thought that since he was already dead why not stab him in the heart where he would bleed faster and then they would make it look like an intruder came in and stabbed him and perhaps the MDs wouldn’t even bother searching for drugs in his system…or at least not right away.
The bathtub would be the logical place to drain the blood. This location would also match the orientation of the wounds. The stab wounds were clinical and don’t appear jagged as if this were a crime of passion. Maybe the stab wounds were clinical in nature because the motivation for them was to draw blood out so that they could cover their tracks for the drugging and attempted rape.
Maybe it’s totally crazy but just about everything seems crazy right now. Especially the thought that there may not be enough evidence to convict these guys.
I don’t think the government did too great of a job in tying the defendants to the lack of blood. Maybe its just from watching one too many CSI episodes but wouldn’t the FBI have found at least traces of blood in the floor, or drain traps in the house or backyard even if the area had been cleaned up or hosed down?
On an unrelated note I think VZ might get off of all charges based on some of the judges questions. DW has a shot of getting off too but I can’t see anyway that JP doesn’t at least get convicted of some charges, which ones I am not sure but his involvement to me seems beyond a reasonable doubt
The cadaver dog DID find blood in the outside patio drain. If you look at police crime scene photos they took pictures of the outside area, including the back stairs. I think the police have a pretty good idea of what actually happened. I think the Judge does, too. We haven’t seen all the evidence but you can deduce a lot from what the police focused on.
The lack of blood etc will come out in the civil trial. The police screwed up the crime scene using Ashley’s Reagent.
Ammended the police applied large amounts of Ashley’s Reagent in the room where Robert Wone was found and it turned the walls blue. Somewhere I read there were splatter marks, etc that showed up but the evidence was inadmissible due to the misuse of the Reagent. (It will detect other things besides blood.)
I was assured that a gallon of bleach or draino flushed down a drain will obliterate any trace of blood, though there are chemicals that cal detect the use of these prodcts. Still easuer to explain those than blood.
…and there was ALOT of volunteered info about the broken shower. Perhaps to explain the draino, if found.
The volunteered information seems to be the leading indicator(s)…..
I read the Govt. opposition report (link) and the volunteered admission by Dylan of shaking Robert’s hand to explain possible DNA traces, same on Joe’s part….. lots of mention of Robert showering to explain the freshly showered body…
I agree. Reading the gov’t document above details what my feelings have been about the interrogations. There was way too much volunteer info about seemingly random things that went on that day and night…none of which were in an effort to find Robert’s killer (the intruder). It was all about explaining away details that may implicate the defendents in the crime. None of it was prompted by questions from the police. It was all offered up and as noted in the above document at odd in the conversation. I’d love to see some of the video of these interrogations to read the body language.
The 2nd EMT (no friend of the defense) testified there were numerous punctures made in the ambulance trying to insert an IV unsuccessfully.
The FBI for three weeks took away sheetrock, stairs, banisters, pipes and the washer and dryer to FBI labs and evidently found no blood traces.
There are still unexplained and unaccounted for puncture marks on the ankle, chest and neck. This is stated the document submitted by the gov’t which is linked above and references testimony by emt, hosptial workers, etc. Further, Fowler testified that the punture marks on the ankle and neck appear to be antemortem (pre-death).
As to the blood. It is my understanding that the blood evidence was inadmissable. So, yes I am speculating about blood going down the drain. I do not see any evidence to points to that….but the missing blood had to go somewhere. I find it curious that one of the odd details that was volunarily offered up by all three of the defendants was the broken shower. In my opinion this was to provide cover in the event that drain cleaners were found in the pipes. That is speculation on my part.
That would require that Sarah Morgan was a co-conspirator. She testified about the shower trouble.
And the “missing blood” means confidence in the ME and DC morgue. A quick google of “DC morgue” may show that confidence is shaky.
Perhaps there was real shower trouble. But it’s still odd that they are all talking about the seemingly irrelevant shower trouble when the issue at hand is finding an intruder who stabbed their friend. I think the only reason they are all talking about the damn shower is to explain why draino might be found in the pipes.
I have confidence in the ME and apparently so does the judge since she mentioned that she was the only witness who hadn’t been paid.
The shower trouble sounds real to me. There were holes in the ceiling on the second floor, along with a bunch of tools. And presumably, the police would check to see if the shower was working properly or not.
The only puncture marks that can’t be accounted for are the ones on the ankles. The ones in the neck MIGHT have been made by EMT Baker (per EMT Weaver’s testimony), and the ones in the chest were almost certainly secondary to attempts at pericardiocentesis (i.e., sticking a needle into the chest to try to relieve a pericardial tamponade).
The lack of blood or cleaning agents in the drains is meaningless to me. If you can’t find cleaning agents in the drain pipes of three “fastidious” gay men, then you’re probably not looking hard enough.
Fowler and Goslinowski both testified that the ankle and neck punture marks appeared to be made pre death. The EMT said Robert appeared to be dead for some time when her arrived. So we need an explanation for those marks prior to the EMTs arrival.
About the shower…who the hell mentions their shower troubles when they are being questioned for the murder of a friend? They all didn’t just offer that info for nothing. Those interrogations strike me as chock full of info to provide cover for themselves. Why on earth would they think that was crucial info to help the police find Robert’s killer?
Serioulsy everything out of their mouths seems to be about themselves…nothing seems to be about Robert and getting to the bottom of who got in the house and did this to their friend.
“So, yes I am speculating about blood going down the drain. I do not see any evidence to points to that….but the missing blood had to go somewhere. ”
They is some evidence. A cadaver blood detected blood at the drain in the back patio and the dryer’s lint trap.
You can’t cross-examine a dog. Anything that the dog “alerted” on should have been thoroughly tested, and as far as we know, nothing came back positive on subsequent testing.
In children’s literature, Dr. Doolittle once did assist in the direct examination of a dog. It is true that the dog was never cross-examined, because the prosecutor became ill with rage at this point.
O.K., then, how would one interrogate a sparkly cat labeled “Tres Chic”?
Thank you. I needed a little levity.
As I recall, a dog’s “plaintive wail” around the time of the murder of OJ’s ex-wife and her friend was admitted into evidence via testimony of a human neighbor . . . but we all know the result of that trial . . .
Don’t forget about that pesky semen thing. :/ It may have been more than just photography.
Fueled on drugs, I see Joe as the type of person that wants what he wants. Afterall, he had a partner upstairs and a lover downstairs. How many people do you know that have the cajones to do that? Plus he had a disregard for rules. He kept considerable amounts of porn at work. Sexual addiction, maybe? Anyway, I think the combination of drugs and his sexual addiction may have gotten the best of him. He may have lost control. IMHO
I might also add that getting someone to do something they don’t generally do would be a huge ego boost to someone that is egotistical.
Dylan…Victor…why not Robert?
‘captures you and what you give to my life — color — attitude — fear — smartassedness — and excitement.
joe mentions “fear”. i know that that is probably in reference to bsdm but maybe he thought that pushing boundaries (like suggesting a third person to join them) would bring more excitement for dylan (and himself). so i really am more convinced than ever that they planned to do something to robert ahead of time. drugging and raping him brought fear and joe apparently liked torture and as horrible as it sounds i guess that was exciting to them. and victor was away…
How did Dyl bring “fear” and “smartassedness” to Joe’s life? Post-murder evidence of these “gifts” to Joe would be Dyl’s confrontation with reporter Keith Alexander in a Moultrie hallway, his frank advertising for sensual/erotic massages right before trial, and his agreeing to take a polygraph after his own Anacostia Dialogue.
What is “smartassedness” in this context, and why did it so appeal to Mr. Price in 2005?
joe is very assertive to say the least and used to people just falling in line with his decisions, from what we’ve seen. maybe “smartassedness” was someone who would occasionally call him out on something he said. i imagine that even for someone who is used to buldozing through life and getting his way and “directing” everyone else, that it would be sometimes refreshing to feel a push back on occasion.
and to me that falls perfectly in line with his attraction to being a “sub” in one part of his life.
Excellent point, des.
His ass could do tricks?
Seriously, that is the best handling of “smart ass” he could come up with? Dylan had him that tonguetied?
“His ass could do tricks?”
ROFL!
now i can’t get a really bizarre image out of my mind! bleeeeeck!!
The image that I have is not that bizarre, because it is a performing donkey.
How Did DW confront reporter K. Alexander?
In a rather brusque manner, Dylan chided Keith for falling asleep in the courtroom. Dyl’s priorities have been a bit eccentric to say the least.
Thanks. Was that reported anywhere or is it hearsay? Did he mean “sleep” in a sarcastic sense?
Was Robert Wone aware of the so-called three-way relationship? It seems that he was chummy with at least two of the defendants. I will never assume he wanted to be killed, that is absurd, but I wonder, how does his own sperm end up in is own rectum? As a gay guy I am trying to imagine how that would happen. I can not believe that even panicky absurd queens rushing around the townhouse after a murder came up with the idea like, “let’s put his cum in his ass, yeah, that’ll through the cops off.” No. I think Robert Wone was there to have sex.
I “dated” a married guy and the stupid excuse of, Oh, I can’t drive home because it’s too far, is something a wife would believe. There is no doubt that Robert Wone was there to have sex with someone. Period.
Of course, his assignation should not have resulted in his death.
It is clear to me the that Robert Wone was on the DL. No doubt.
So, if a woman stayed over-night at her brother’s house (who happened to have two roommates) because she worked late and wasn’t keen on the idea of travelling home late, and she was murdered would it be clear to you that she was having a sexual relationship with one of the housemates?
Gosh, I would never think one or all of these people did not kill Robert Wone. It is certain that one of them did kill Robert Wone. The question is: who did he go to the townhouse to have sex with?
You didn’t read my posting…..The question is would it be clear to you that she was having a sexual relationship with one of the housemates?
Move to strike, not responsive.
this is not a game, Grrr.
When people are backed against a wall with a questino they know they cannot answer in a way that would bolster their own argument, they do things like this.
I’ll answer for you. No. it is not clear that she would be having a sexual relationship with one of the housemates.
It also would not be clear that one of the housemates raped and murdered her.
Umm…Tasso stick to the subject matter of the discussion.
Apples and oranges, dear.
Yes.
more than likely, yes.
What in that statement makes it clear to you that she would be having a sexual relationship with someone in that hosue?
CDinDC,
Okay, let us stretch this a little further. We know that Asian men are extraordinarily bisexual. Like Mexican men. Further, regardless of race, we know that sexual orientation is not linear. Think about how your own desires change when you are horney. So he has a sick wife, maybe he isn’t getting “it” as often as he liked. He respects his more successful mentor. He may even admire and secretly covet his (relative) wealth and position. We assume that Mr. Wone took a job with Radio free whatever because he was a kind do-gooder. But, since his previous professional disaster of not being on a “partner track,” he saw Price as a romantic possibility. As crass as this sounds, everyone has their limited tolerance in seeing the promises of their youth wasted with a marginal job and a less than attractive wife. Mr. Wone may have loved Price & that could have brought him to Swann Street.
Okay, I should stop thinking about this.
Grrr – “We know that Asian men are extraordinarily bisexual. Like Mexican men.” Is that really true? I am not being rude or challenging your statement. I am a straight woman without much knowledge in this area. That statement just surprised me as I have never heard that.
Asian people are very sensual, in general. Mexican men are just horney.
Thanks! I appreciate the info.
KKinCA, ignore “Grrr”. He/she is an internet troll. Notice how he/she did not answer your question. You asked if it is really true that Asian/Mexican men are bisexual. He responded by saying Asian men are “sensual” and Mexican men are “horney”. Being sensual or horney has NOTHING to do with bisexuality.
To answer your question, there is no evidence to suggest Asian/Mexican men are any more bi or gay than men of other races. That is why you’ve never heard of that.
Perhaps you should have been rude and challenged his statement except that you were taught to be a polite lady. Perhaps you should have ignored the troll. Please ignore the troll.
This is just wrong it too many ways to even get into.
Cinnamon,
I know, but no one has the answer. Let’s think outside the box. That is the only way this murder will be solved.
Stop this crude speculation. The people on this site are becoming creeps.
Calmdown, A murder was committed here, not a faux pas at a garden party.
Truth is never seen, in this case, through bright sunshine and the cleanliness of our living rooms.
It would not be a reasonable inference that she was having a consensual sexual relationship with one of the housemates, but it would be a reasonable inference that sex (consensual or forcible) was likely to be involved.
Remember, he asked two friends, one of whom was female.
And I can tell you, as the relative of a zoologist, that estim would bring him off in about, oh, 120 seconds, and he wouldn’t need to be conscious.
I believe that the fairest thing to infer by Mr. Wone staying over at the townhouse is that he simply wanted to crash there for a few hours overnight…nothing more, nothing less. Why? Well, we could attempt to draw other inferences, but they would be pure speculation. We have no evidence, not even a random poster on this site or others, that even hints that he had a hidden life or was interested in pursuing anything but a good nights sleep.
That being said, I believe that there are a fair amount of people out there who would ask why you wouldn’t want to just go through the slight inconvenience (i.e. get a cab) to go home and sleep in the comfort of your own bed (I love my own bed, by the way). I know he was supposed to have breakfast with Price the next morning to “catch up”, but they could have lunch together anytime to catch up. Downtown DC is not that big. They probably worked minutes from each other.
I think too many people make assumptions based on their own tendencies. People need to take the facts and base them on the personalities of the individuals involved.
Me? I would have made my way home.
Robert Wone? Maybe not. Robert had discussed the sleep-over with two people. A female friend from school. And Joe.
He was a confirmed multi-tasker. He took this late evening as an opportunity. Robert had some intellectual property matters to discuss with Joe. Apparently, Joe wanted to take on RFA as a client. Robert and Joe were going to discuss things over breakfast AND catch-up. In fact, that’s what he discussed with his wife.
I’m curious…how long would it have taken Robert to go home versus going to Joe’s home?
It depends on how the Metro was running at that time of night and if his wife would wait at midnight to pick him up at the station or if he would want her to wait for his call from when he got to the station.
When this was discussed at greater length by posters previously during the trial, some noted that (1) the Metro was notoriously unreliable late in the evening; he might not get back until midnight or later, (2) Wone’s wife had recently undergone surgery, (3) Robert wouldn’t want her to be waiting alone in the car late at night for him; he’d have to call, and (4) she would also have to get up early the next day, like Robert, to go to work. So to spare her that, Robert decided to sleep over in the city. I think it took Robert something under 15 minutes to go by cab to Joe’s house from RFA, where he’d stopped off to meet with the night staff.
Liam,
Regardless of my comments above, I side with the conventional wisdom on Mr. Wone’s motivation. But my point here & above is conventional wisdom has brought nothing to solving this murder.
Let me be clear. Mr. Wone’s family has suffered a great loss.
As a gay man, I hate the idea you express that any of my straight friends happened to request my hospitality signifies to some people, that they are gay or bisexual. Maybe if they accept my invitation to coming over to my house for a barbecue means they are coming on to me? So impugning Robert here is a profoundly wrong, and dis-serves the cause of gay-straight relationships. Also Robert told his wife where he was going to be. I think he needed a place to spend the night and thought these people were his friends. As far as the semen, I believe the defense argued, successfully, that it was an artifact of the dying process and the prosecution was therefore unable to prove that it had been inserted into his body.
Mark, though I take all of your other major points and agree with them wholeheartedly I think that your last point is not entirely supported.
I actually read the one obscure Scandinavian study produced by the defense and it is a study of decomposing cadavers, many as old as 60 days or more, and discusses the migrating of bodily fluids under those circumstances and extrapolates from there to points that I thought were not proven. Though I will freely concede that forensic medicine is hardly my subject, the thing was translated into English and while it was certainly heavy going for me to read it was not so arcane as to be impossible to interpret. Robert’s body can’t have even been a week old when examined and this study has no relevence to the state of his corpse.
Subsequently this one citation has taken on a life of its own as fact somehow described as “seminal fluid in the rectum is a natural artifact of the dying process” which absolutely categorically is not proven or even demonstrated by the supporting study. That is just not the case.
I think that the prosecutors wisely decided to take any questions about Robert having had sex either willingly or against his will on the day of or the night of his death off the front burner until a murder trail proceeds.
It was when the semen turned out to be spermless that it became evident to most that it was an impotent man’s or a dead man’s semen. That’s when the electro-stim came up as a way to ejaculate a corpse maybe to get it’s semen for a dildo insertion. Someone finally convinced the prosecutor this may not be a sound theory. Finally.
The estim came up much, much earlier as a way to account for the semen from an unconscious man.
Aside from that, carry on.
No, wait. Can you cite the docs for the lack of sperm? I honestly cannot find them, despite searching. I know we read it, but where?
I don’t think we’ve seen anything definitive on the semen. I don’t really trust the lawyers’ filings on this, not because I think they’re lying, but rather because this is a piece of evidence that I don’t think they really understand, and I’d like to see the actual report.
The case has been going on for years and the absence of sperm was a given a long time ago. Maybe in tests after the initial ones. But the prosecutor kept it’s anal insertion premise even up to the arrest warrant for Ward. That would require the victim was impotent or obtaining semen from a corpse, in which case the electro stim comes back in.
Ah, gotcha. Thanks.
I am torn. My comment was meant to be provocative. I have had straight friends stay over while in town with absolutely no sexual tension whatsoever.
Also, the length of Mr. Wone’s trip home doesn’t seem so far. That said, I live in Dallas; in Texas generally, people are used to driving 20-50 miles to go anywhere.
With regard to straight-gay interaction, in many quarters, straight people are coming along quite nicely.
Tres chic, Grrr!
It wasn’t the length of the trip home, it was the late hour and the fact that he’d have to ask his wife to pick him up at the station. Yes, he could have taken a cab, but if Kathy is at all like my partner, she’d have been there, regardless of how much Robert reassured her a cab was no problem.
Baloney.
I’ve spoken to multiple medical doctors about this semen/sperm migration theory, and it’s bunk.
I’ve always found it a sign of Robert’s consideration that part of the reason for the sleepover was that he was using Metro, and didn’t want his wife to have to wait to pick him up in the car, by herself, at whatever lonely, remote Metro station is closest to their home in Oakton. As a car-less woman who is sometimes dropped off late at suburban stations to catch the train back to town, they can be creepy.
As long as he was going to be in town late, he set up a place to stay, and a full agenda: after-work legal course, meeting with the night shift, visiting with friends, morning breakfast meeting. That’s a ton of camouflage for a DL — or any other kind of — encounter and, since I buy that “Kathy shouldn’t be sitting alone in a car at creepy midnight metro just so Robert can maintain his straight married bona-fides,” I long ago dismissed the DL theory.
Don’t forget that there is no email or other communication indicating any kind of tricking.
The truth is, you can be on the dl and be successful, but once someone starts to dig, it’s going to show up. After 4 years, still nothing save for a couple of nattering anonymous posters with no evidence to cite.
Do they think that if there was ANY possibility of a trick, the Trouple wouldn’t have rolled over on their friend by now?
Why would he put his bite-guard in if he was planning to have sex, rather than planning to sleep? Do you think the murderer put the bite-guard in Robert’s mouth to throw the police off?
Wouldn’t have been hard, but then they dressed him, too.
Agree…it could have been as simple as they saw it in the bag when they got his sleeping clothes out to dress him and decided to put it in to make it look like he had indeed gone to sleep.
I’ve definitely felt that the mouth guard was inserted as part of the cover-up, as well. But I am wondering how that fits with the scream/grunts. I’m not familiar with a mouthguard. How securely does it fit? Would it not have been dislodged when Robert supposedly grunted and/or screamed?
I don’t think anyone believes he did either of those things.
That’s kind of my point. JP and VZ say he did, so would that have dislodged the thing or not?
In fairness that is the assumption that the police made from Ward’s interrogation up to somewhat recently. And the victim did spent the night in Price’s room often in college (sleeping on the floor).
It was the defense that spent much effort to stop this implication Wone was bi-sexual or an experimenter and the prosecutor finally backed down before trial.
I was not aware that the prosecution leaned that way, though I can understand in the early days. It makes the most sense and we like things to make sense, especially when it involves a murder.
Did you find it interesting that Joe said he didn’t date and wasn’t out in college? I have wondered how deeply closeted he was. Did Robert know? I would assume so, but then, who knows?
There was a Blade article about a year ago on the intense fight from defense to stop the prosecutor’s allegations of homosexuality of Wone (which defense won). I just tried to locate it but couldn’t.
I am also looking. I’ll post a link if I find it.
I think it’s referenced here (not sure) as the “Gay Defendants Blast Officials in Wone Case” from Blade 2008 but it returns a 404. The story was still findable a few weeks ago.
I’m going to hit the Waybackmachine when I get home. It should pull the page and I’ll post a link.
I did find the sperm less semen reference:
http://www.washingtonblade.com/2010/03/08/wone-hearing-to-discuss-sm-devices/
Exxxxcellent. Much thanks. Going to read now.
By this article the defense claimed they would present testimony that would claim there was no sperm, but as we know they ever did.
And this is the same filing that asserted — “It should be noted that Michael Price’s partner, Louis Hinton, provided an alibi for Michael Price at the time of the murder.”
I have never heard or read this allegation either.
It sure seems like we’d have heard of or discussed it on this board. I daily news account notifications but never saw it. If it’s as you say, then you’d be able to get a copy of the “Motion War” if not the article. Looking forward to reading it.
And the victim did spent the night in Price’s room often in college (sleeping on the floor).
what is the source for that?
Joe said so in his videotaped statement to the police.
Acutally, it was not “often.” Robert spent the night on Joe’s dorm room floor once in the spring before his freshman year as part of a campus visitation for which Joe was his student host, radomly assigned according to Joe although Joe had also been, coincidently, Robert’s tour guide in the fall.
I’ve never heard that Robert Wone spent the night in Price’s room “often” in college. From what I recall reading, that only happened once when Robert was visiting the campus when he was a high school student. What is your source?
yes, source please.
Again and again this keeps coming up. Robert was definitely *not* there to have sex. Even if you won’t believe those of us who were friends or friends-of-friends and are also gay, there is one simple fact that shows this–Robert had his night guard in (for teeth grinding) when he was found. NO ONE puts in a night guard before sex. No one. Case closed (well, I wish it were, but surely someone else will chime in with the same BS).
Next time they’ll claim knowledge of a fledgling mouthguard kink.
will the closing arguments be posted as well?
Dyl added “color” and “excitement” to Joe’s life? This is the same person who both exercised and ate at home that fateful evening, and who then read an article in his room while dosing off long before midnight: yawn!
How “tres chic” is “a sparkly cat across a sofa?” Hello Kitty may have been more appropriate, even for 2005.
Meow. LOL
I cannot lie, I was aghast at the sparkly cat. Perhaps if it had been from a teenaged girl…
LOL Carolina. Something scary about a fleshy lawyer talking about sparkly cats…
oh god….LOL
Hallmark now makes polyamorous greeting cards? With sparkly cat as the logo? How progressive!
Who knew, LOL! How sparkly was the sparkly cat? Were the sparkles the colors of the rainbow? Who gives their “titular dom” a sparkly cat card?
“Sparkle, Neely, sparkle!” — (yet another line from The Valley of the Dolls.)
Well, the card did say “tres chic” on it.
My mom says “tres chic.” That just makes it that much more amusing in my mind.
Ketamine is often referred as to cat tranquilizer, Cats, kitties, and felines are often an inside joke of sorts to those who use ketamine…would be actually be the perfect card for them..
I hope the kitty’s name was Tina.
Maybe it was a ketty cat.
ROFL! Of all the sexy symbols in the world, I would have never guessed that a “tres chic”, sparkly cat on a sofa would have been Joe’s image for Dyl. Mercedes, Mercedes, Mercedes, indeed!
Cat tranquilizers are dangerous. My mother once got blood poisoning (septicemia) from giving one to a cat.
Dylan may have exercised and supped at home, but he was not home at 6pm when Sarah left and set the alarm. I wonder what errands little Dyl was running at that time. Lord know he wasn’t working.
That was also stipulated, was it not? The actions of the Trouple as well as Robert on Aug 2?
Charming. You’ve got to be the angriest obsessive on this blog.
AnnaZed that is.
You have no idea.
I know he didn’t call you a bitch, but I’m ordering you a letterman’s jacket anyway.
Welcome to the club, Anna!
If Dylan thought adding a third (presumably voluntary) person for sex was intimidating, then why would he decide to rape/murder someone who wasn’t a voluntary participant? That makes no sense to me.
Perhaps it wasn’t Dylan.
My thought about the “intimidating” comment was that they must have been referring to more than just bringing in a third. That seems tame for these two and their habits. Hadn’t they already had a third (an acquaintance of Scott Hixon’s?).
I think what Joe was referring to and Dyl was intimidated by must have been some grand plan with a third – i.e. drug an unwilling heterosexual, take photos, use toys, whatever. But just getting together with a third doesn’t strike me as something that would intimidate Dylan and excite Joe enough to keep their “magic” alive.
If that’s the case, isn’t this pre-meditation? At least for some kind of assault it seems like pre-meditation. Not a lawyer, BTW.
My thoughts exactly. I need to read the motions to see if the government used these emails as evidence of conspiracy/pre-meditation. I suspect not, since I have not heard of it before. Of course, us armchair quarterbacks want to know why the prosecution didn’t use this stuff. Seems dynamite to me. Especially if legally Judge L is alowed to draw reasonable inferences from the evidence.
I think they’d had Hixson individually, not together.
You’re right about them having Hixson individually. I believe it was Hixon’s trick who claimed he had them together. After Hixon blurted it out, it was stricken from the record.
Then, the infamous Mercedes conference that morning included only those who were tied to each other by bonds of sexual intimacy?
In a related question, were Mr. Hixson and/or his five-minute friend “thirds” tried by Joe and Dyl in July 2006 to spice up their failing love life? Then, Dyl going to Thailand after the murder makes sense in that the romantic embers of 2005 had truly been extiniguished by 2007. I bet Dyl secretly hates Joe now, but he can do nothing but support Culuket and maintain a united front. Miami beckons for them all!
And I don’t recall getting any impression from Hixson that he had anything more than ordinary, non-BDSM sex with each of them. (Otherwise, at least one of the three would have to be switching roles, which is certainly possible but not that likely-?)…Consequently, I wondered if Joe’s e-mail was referring to bringing in a third for their BDSM play, not for ordinary sex, which indeed could be more intimidating. In that context, the prospect of sexual activities with a third unconscious party would certainly be less threatening.
Go read his alt.com profile. All your questions will be answered!
Thanks, Carolina! Yes, I see they had many activities they could avail themselves of….and after a 15-line listing of them, there was this profile entry:
I think about alt lifestyle: once a day
Riiiiight!
Once a day, all day long.
Cheers All –
Was anyone else surprised by the fact that Joe and Dylan’s initial contemplation of adding a third party was only a few short weeks before Robert’s death?
I had assumed (incorrectly, it would seem) that the third party play scenario had been going for a far longer period of time.
They also appear to have been genuine novices at BDSM. Perhaps that explains why no one in the established BDSM community has ever come forward to comment about them?
Thoughts, anyone?
Seems they were also novices date raping the third party. It doesn’t look like things went according to plan.
absolutely agreed. judging especially from the alt dot com profile, they were into much more than just a “tame” three-way.
If they’d wanted vanilla, it was upstairs, pouting.
exactly.
To some (seriously twisted) twosomes, a third sex partner rendered unconscious is probably a less intimidating prospect — no messy emotions to deal with, no risk that the incapacitated one will outperform them in front of their regular partner.
This was always a bit of a bump for me — why, if (as I assumed) Joe & Dylan regularly hooked up with a willing third, would they bother with straight, involuntary, friendly Robert? These emails change my perception of things. In fact, the threesome idea was brewing, being dangled, possibly bait in a bond that was breaking. That emotional climate is ripe for desperation and risk-tasking, in my opinion.
Victor appears to have been the calm moral center of the house. Joe & Dylan are careful to make their plans when he’s going to be away. Then he returns unexpectedly. I’m reminded how sometimes when people behave in a way that deep down they know isn’t right, the voice of reason appearing can have the opposite effect — instead of diffusing the situation, the “conscience” factor takes the form of a challenge to those acting out and ratchets up the defiant bad behavior.
You and Judge L are on the same page regarding Zaborsky – she made a veiled reference to Zaborsky as the “mom” of the house. However, if he lied and misdirected the cops, momma’s been bad!
I feel sorry for Zaborsky vis a vis his realtionship with Price….Price brings home all these tricks, hooks up with neighbors, trolls the internet for sex partners, and then brings a third (Dylann) to be part of their family.
Dollars to donuts Zaborsky did not want Dylan as part of their household, but allowed him to keep Price happy. I’ve seen no indication that there was any intimacy/feelings/sex between Zaborsky and Dylan.
Too bad Zaborsky couldn’t just see the writing on the wall that what he once may have had with Price was over, and gotten the hell out. Zaborsky let his coddling of Joe go way too far. Look where they are now – defendants in a criminal case. Wondering what he’s thinking right now. He is not going to go down alone, he’ll sing first.
I wish Mama Z had implored her son to come home and let Joe and Dylan’s bright star of luv burn itself out. He didn’t deserve this.
The SVU script in my imagination has men from the Zaborsky family kidnapping Victor on Tuesday afternoon and taking him to one of those places that deprogram people who are caught up in cults.
I’d watch that.
You mean this blog isn’t a script? Did someone really die?
Having children usually changes relationships. I haven’t a clue how close Victor and Joe were/are with their sons (I only know of Michael’s visit with his nephews on August 2, 2006), but often having children together makes ending a toxic relationship very difficult.
KK,
Here is where I am completely confounded on ‘having children” together issue of this relationship. Let’s be clear, while Joe and Victor are biologically the fathers of these children, aren’t the lesbian couple actually the parents? Joe and Victor could split up, and not have that many ramifications of the children because their parent aren’t splitting up, just the sperm donors of the children. The children do not live with them day-to-day. The lesbian mothers are the parents of these children. Joe and Victor are sperm donors, at least that is what it looks like from the outside, even though they play a role in the children’s lives, they are not their parents.
I could be wrong, as I certainly don’t know what has been worked out inside this relationship.
David, co-ed.
Thanks David. Being single mother of three amazing 3 kids (with 50-50 custody with my ex), I have wondered what the legal/custody arrangements were/are, and how much time J and V spent/spend with their boys. I had assumed this issue wasn’t addressed in the press or on this site was out of privacy to the kids/moms. But I was struck by 2 things: (1) Michael spending time with the kids in 2006, and (2) Victor’s reference to the kids in the above-described card, both of which suggest (at least to me) more that just sperm-donor status.
I have been told they were very active in their sons’ lives. I hope that is true, no matter if they are guilty or not.
“…I’ve seen no indication that there was any intimacy/feelings/sex between Zaborsky and Dylan.”
I know, that’s why I have thought all along that the construct of a “trouple” of equal partners was and is a false descriptor. What we have is two two-way relationships with Joe in the center, very toxic.
While JP may have felt the magic love for Dyl in 2006, as late as 2008 he’s keeping the financial ties with VZ.
After JP/VZ sold 1509 Swann at a substantial profit in 2008, they bought the Miami Shores property jointly, keeping their financial ties intertwined.
Dyl was just a house sitter there, apparently.
That is probably because Dylan had no assets to contribute to the situation. If I were Zaborsky, I would never permit Dylan’s name to be on as much as a paperclip. Dude’s nuts. The law does not recognize a three-way relationship, so from Zaborsky’s perspective, he only stands to lose from including Dylan in the financing/titling of VZ’s and JP’s assets.
Agreed.
Joe Price, femme fatale.
Dylan Ward, femme fatale, squared?
Victor is no criminal. I looked at the three defendants one day in court recently and felt a real pang of sympathy for him. I trust my gut reactions. I watched him that day, and saw a man eager to please, anxious, wanting to connect, and a person in pain.
That he has held out this long is a sad thing. The ties that bond seem to override this person’s integrity.
I would like Victor to take back the night…if only he could…I would like Victor to be brave, and to admit his own shortcomings, hold his nose, and then, take the plunge into the waters of truth.
I sense many care for Victor. And he will be supported.
I am a stranger, but I see a real live person in him.
Why waste another life?
If he had only stayed in Denver! But then again, who would have done the 911 call for Culuket?
They wouldn’t have had to call 911 if Victor hadn’t screamed. Robert’s body would have disappeared.
You say he’s no criminal but you say you would like him to “admiit his own shortcomings” re the “truth.” If he’s holding something back, lying to the police, complicit in supporting JP and DW’s story, then he is a criminal.
I’d like to point out that your descripton of Victor would apply to any of the “wives” of Charles Manson. They were lost, pathetic souls who believed themselves to be deeply in love. . .
I think Kirschner was insinuating “Family” as in Manson Family, as in non-traditional family=cult. But even in that case it was members of the family that provided evidence to get immunity or lenient sentence. Hell, the outrage is that no one is willing to say whatever the prosecutor wants, true or not, to get out of 38 years.
I really did not get that feeling. When Glenn spoke of family, I felt he was asking us to look at them as we would a traditional nuclear and extended family. Would family cover for one another? As much as the posters here say no, I will disagree. I grew up in a place where the greatest sin was being a snitch of any degree and to roll over on a family member was unthinkable. Had you done so, you would never be “family” again.
Take a look at the Tom Capano case. He murdered the governor’s secretary, then had his brother help him clean it up and dispose of the body. When that brother, facing his own drug arrest, agreed to testify, his mother all but disowned him. Not the murdering philanderer who cause it all, but the snitch. His own mother.
You may be right. The State may have been going for the cult implication, but I am more inclined to think they’ve met more Capanos than Mansons.
But that was blood-relative family. Fewer close blood relatives flip. I always warn people not to use the term “family” even if it’s meant as an affectionate term, because it has negative connotations, especially as regards objectivity.
Excellent point, that.
I wasn’t suggesting that this family was “cult” like. I was merely pointing out that history is replete with examples of kind, gentle souls who have committed heineous crimes in the name of love. I’d like to think Victor is innocent in every way. Then again, I’d like to think that no one could do to a person what was done to Robert Wone.
Well, if he helped to cover up a murder, he is indeed a criminal, and I have zero sympathy for him. A truly good person would not do such a thing for anyone. If my partner or friend killed someone and asked me to cover it up, I can honestly say I would not (I mean, really, why would you want to be friends with or married to a murderer? That just blows my mind, whether you are in love or not). So sorry, no sympathy for Victor. He’s a big boy, he’s made his decisions and his bed, and he should now lie in it. A good person would also think about Kathy and Robert’s family and friends, and then do the right thing, regardless of the consequences to himself.
Actually, it is preposterous! And why would these same guys who were intimidated and scared as they say in the emails plan to rape and murder someone known to them who could so easily be tracked back to them rather then some random strager.
Unfortunately no regulars on this blog have any perspective outside the accepted narrative, others over time have been winnowed out or have lost interest.
I say it was an Internet hook up gone bad or they were all partying together and Wone overdosed. Robert Wone was in a big hurry to finish up his 10 minute meeting at RFA and get to Swann Street for some reason.
The Blade reports that Wone took his wife to Mimi’s for their first date. Given the standard of evidence on this blog that pretty much nails him as being at least bi unless he was that one in a hundred million straight men into show tunes.
Again, I feel the need to point out that if your theory is correct, then the defendants are all guilty of the charges. You do understand that, don’t you?
What and where is Mimi’s? I had thought that the Wones had met at a Cosi restaurant.
BTW, Doubtful, lots of straight men take women to cultural events/places that they themselves would not go to alone and/or with their buddies: especially during early courtship. That’s not a secret!
Only given the one scenario. If Wone had admitted a trick into the house after the others had retired(the door chime)they indeed may not know muchmore then they have stated. If in fact they were all partying together then yes they are guilty of the charges herein.
You need evidence. An email, a phone call, something.
Do you honestly think the Trouple would still be hiding Robert’s “dirty little secret”? Hell, no.
Doubtful-
Think about this for a moment. Mr. Wone is an overnight houseguest with a breakfast appointment.
So, he invites some unrelated, uninvited stranger (sex indeterminate, btw) into his host’s house. It would make for an interesting scene at breakfast, no?
Well, how does Mr. Wone arrange this meeting? He can’t be sure exactly when he (mr. Wone) will arrive at Swann, or when his hosts will go to bed, or where the windows face in the room where he will sleep. So, he has to wait ’til everybody is asleep, and then call. There were no calls.
When Mr. Wone or his guest open the door, they can’t know whether whether or not they will set off the alarm.
Further, if Mr. Wone is a consensual participant in some sort of activity, how did he end up wearing shorts/t-shirt/underwear, lying on his back, with three very precise stab wounds, and a knife from the kitchen? He must have been an unconscious, fully dressed consensual participant. Whatever it was that happened didn’t disturb the bed.
Why didn’t he put away his street clothes neatly, as was his custom? Why was he wearing his biteguard?
Imagine Mr. Wone and his friend entering the house, and the friend says, “Oh by the way, I need to borrow a knife from the kitchen.” Yikes. Or does the friend trundle downstairs, pick up a knife, and then go back upstairs?
Keep in mind that if you accept Mr. Ward’s account of the shower, all this happened between 11 pm and 11:40pm, with these people walking back in forth in front of Mr. Ward’s door.
If you accept Mr. Price’s account of the chime, it all happened within a within an even shorter time period–11:35?-11:45?
IMHO, this dog don’t hunt.
Precisely! Why would anyone on the DL invite a trick to the “sardine can” home of three openly gay men (and Miss Morgan, who knew everything) who would have known for what purpose the trick was there? If you were on the DL and wanted to trick, that would be the last place to which you would go.
It’s not as if he couldn’t afford a hotel.
Unless one of the 3 procured a trick for the victim, it turned out as yet another trick gone bad, and covered to protect themselves or the victim’s reputation. (Long shot and still guilty).
and then risk going to jail for 38 years or more for his reputation?
Was there any testimony from Mrs. Wone about whether Robert Wone was in the habit of wearing underwear AND a pair of gym shorts to bed? That strikes me as odd; further suggesting that someone else dressed him. Men, please chime in here. My guess would be one or the other (or neither, i.e., commando) but not both the undies and the gym shorts.
Hi Greta –
Kathy Wone testified that Robert did indeed sleep in both shorts and underwear.
Sounds so terribly binding on a hot night.
Kate
Doubtful is so smart.
I’m a straight white male, and I love show tunes.
Sure, but would you sleep in my guest room?
Well, what gender and orientation are you? 😉
I would sleep in the guest room of anyone that I trusted, regardless of their gender and orientation.
It appears that trust was broken in this case, unless there really was a ninja, and then trust was broken by not asking the police to respond in the 911 call to arrest the ninja.
Lee – yet another reason to admire you!
Which do you prefer: Guys and Dolls or Chicago?
Cheers,
Kate
chicago!
Lee, bravo, what a courageous admission!
BTW, sparkly cats were not included in the original score of the musical Cats, I am afraid.
Years ago, I rented an english basement in dupont circle. My landlords, a lovely older (straight) couple lived upstairs. I remember on weekends, they would have friends over for dinner and after they would all move to the music room and sing showtunes. (It’s a totally precious memory of that really wonderful couple.)
Of course, there is no single accepted narrative and your version has NO EVIDENCE at all, but you keep on keepin’ on. Anything to keep you off the streets.
As an alleged charter member of “the Thought Police”, I agree with Carolina: there is no “Thought Police”; there is no WMRW official line. Stop trying to invent them as straw dogs … (or straw sparkly cats!)
I think I was in “Thought Police” too, yes? I sure hope so. It was so long ago, at least in troll-years.
As Joan Jett, you were “the lead singer” of that group. And, before that, it was the evil lesbians v. John Grisham and male sexuality.
In some small way, I’m going to miss the teapot tempests of this blog, but, then again, the prize remains justice for Robert.
Evidence and facts in past witch hunt trials were more convincing than in this one.
For example?
Really? I’m not aware of many witch hunt trials that involved a dead body in the guest bedroom.
Don’t encourage it
I am in general in favor of not feeding the trolls, but to say: “Don’t encourage it [the troll]” is either generally insulting or a homophobic insult. Tasso Junior is entitled, as is any homosexual male, to be referred to with his proper gender. Don’t encourage him, and don’t insult him.
Bob I have no idea what Tasso’s gender is. The few posts by him/her I have read, however, have contributed nothing worthwhile to the discussion. No particular insult by the term ‘it’ was intended, but trying to engage people like them in discussion here tends to be pointless. That was the intention of my post. Sorry if you were offended.
Tasso’s boyfriend was murdered and the DC police screwed up the investigation, and he is bitter. It is true that his posts contribute nothing, but he has gender and a sexual orientation. I understand that you were saying not to encourage him.
TK, I read that as “don’t encourage [that behaviour],” meaning the trolling.
May I suggest to everyone that if you want to reply to Tasso, then do so. If you don’t….don’t. I don’t see why we need to discuss it.
Oh. Don’t encourage the flaming. I see. However, that also illustrates that pronouns do matter, because it wasn’t clear what the antecedent was.
Who knew that this site provides both grammar lessons as well as legal insights!
Sparkly cats, tantalizing thirds, and the tooth fairy, oh my!
Don’t bother doing “homsexual males” any favors. This site is so rife with latent homophobia that the misuse of a pronoun is hardly important. The ultimate heresy is, of course, to suggest that Wone could have some how been a willing participant up to a point in whatever happened that night. That, of course, suggests that he might have some homosexual tendencies which is too far outside the pale of the acceptable.
“I am not a racist, I have a black friend.”
Spare me the “blame the victim” cliche and I accept the fact that I suggest scenarios at odds with the accepted narrative makes me a “troll” as the term is used herein.
Blah blah blah. You do fly-overs every so often, and you get irritated when people lose patience with you. The fact of the matter is that the possibility that Wone was on the “down low” has been discussed extensively on this site, and most people have concluded that he probably wasn’t, because there’s not a shred of evidence to support it. And if he WAS on the “down low”, it has no bearing on the fact that he didn’t deserve to be stabbed to death, and it doesn’t excuse the defendants from lying about it.
Uh, Doubtful, the editors are gay males, as am I, as are many of the frequent posters. I don’t think I have any latent homophobia, we just aren’t afraid to say that some members of our ‘community’ may not be angels, so we don’t blindly defend them. And I haven’t used the term ‘troll.’
There are a few (latent or non-latent) homophobes who post here because there are homophobes in US society. They generally get put down quickly.
I wasn’t trying to do homosexual males any favors. I was only saying that a pronoun sometimes does make a difference, which is more than I can say about your posts or Tasso’s.
I apologize to Tasso, I had no idea of his history. As for you Bob, I have been following this murder since the beginning, and my posts go back a lot further than yours, and according to some other long-time posters, I’ve made a small contribution. Take a pill.
I apologize for annoying you by snapping at you. I understand that no offense was intended. I simply am a grammatical purist, and would prefer that people be referred to with the wrong gender than without a gender.
Ok, lets go there then. Let’s posit that Robert had a long term on-again off-again closeted sexual relationship with Joe. Let’s say he chose his wife because her medical issues precluded her making sexual demands on him. Let’s say that he took her to Mimi’s (I don’t know what that is, but from context I take it to be a place where show tunes were performed). I think that is possible.
How does that make any of these three men any less culpable in the conspiracy, tampering and obstruction charges on the table right now?
Why even bother? Just another diversionary tactic. Someone’s letting off steam, and have you ever noticed this kind of stuff escalates when court is out of session?
Does anyone honestly believe that someone like Joe could restrain himself from posting on this blog? Anyone?
I’m quite sure he’s reading, but it doesn’t really sound like him.
Have to say, Unless the lawyers physically restrain him, I bet Joe is on here somewhere. With all that knee-bouncing, he has to let it out somehow.
I’m sure the defendants are reading this blog, but posting? I doubt it. They’ve seen their private correspondence produced as evidence in this trial, and they know there’s another trial coming up. Mrs Wone’s lawyers could track any comment here back to the originating ISP.
I certainly hope she does! I’d be shocked if some of the posters here were not one or more of the defendants (or their brother).
Exactly, if this was a consensual act and there was an accident/overdose, one would think that calling 911 would be a better option than stabbing a friend and staging an intruder. There had to have been a strong motivator that made the stabbing/intruder plan the better option. Maybe something like attempting to hide a drugging and attempted rape.
Maybe they didn’t call 911 because they were such good friends that they wanted to protect Robert’s gay proclivities, and so they stabbed him rather than let the truth be known.
By Jove, I think he’s got it!
I just don’t think that is a strong enough motivator to let your friend die of an overdose. Also, it would have only been known that he took some drugs not that he engaged in sexual activity. Also, why on earth would put themselves in such a position? To help keep someone in the closet? I don’t think so.
Bottom line is that I think the instinct would have been to save his life by calling 911 and deal with the rest later.
I was joking.
I agree with you, cinnamon, wholeheartedly.
Good points. At some time in the past it might have been useful to consider Robert’s orientation in order to develop a list of candidates that might have become suspects. But to the best of our knowledge, no one has come forward.
As you suggest, consider the possibility that Robert’s wife is a beard. What do we get? Nothing. No list of dates, incidents, times, places. There is no evidence.
It seems that this case will be solved on the basis of the evidence collected in the house and on the property. And in that there is no evidence of an intruder, let alone an intruder that was a special friend.
Speculating, without evidence, on Robert’s orientation does not seem to lead to any insights that are useful. So why do it?
Unless something else turns up, why not just accept the evidence that we have, that Robert was a straight man who was open minded, even courageous in his acceptance and support of everyone.
In the years 2000-05 or so, Mimi’s was a chain restaurant in the 2100 block of P St where the waitpersons would also take the stage and belt out show tunes, opera, etc.
The crowd who went there was both straight and gay.
Although there were also a few gay bars in that block of P St, too. But, so what?
At least he didn’t take her to Olive Garden.
I once had a first date take me to Ribs ‘n More in Staten Island. There wasn’t a second date.
Did Mrs. Wone really have medical issues that prevented a normal heterosexual sex life? If so, then I am thinking there may be something to the thought that she was a “beard”. Many closeted individuals still, to this day, get married for the cover.
This is the second reference I have seen to a “beard” on this site. Please forgive my ignorance, but what exactly does that mean? A marriage cover for a gay man?
Yes, you’re correct. The beard is the female partner for the gay man. It’s not always a marriage. It can involve just dating. Sometimes it could even involve jumping on a sofa on a TV talk show.
Thanks Bill2. I have learned much today from you and Grrr.
Bob, a little bird (male, seemingly straight-acting) has told me that the only “trolls” out there may be responding to Michael’s Manhunt ad, as we type. They had preferred Dyl’s massage services, but they probably could not find his current ad.
What gender are those trolls? In Norwegian folklore, male trolls are ugly, and female trolls are attractive and stylishly dressed. A man can only recognize a female troll who is trying to seduce him by seeing that she has a tail under her skirt.
“. . . she has a tail under her skirt.”
A cross-dressing troll?
Well, Bob, if they are responding to those ads, then they are uniformly men, who may be aesthetically-challenged enough to date Michael or to make an appointment with Lil Dyl.
No. Not a cross-dressing troll. Remember that I make an issue about the genders of pronouns. If it is a cross-dressing troll, then the tail is under his skirt, and we only think it is her skirt.
However, I don’t think that a male troll would succeed in cross-dressing, because male trolls were considered to be ugly and would not pass for attractive stylishly dressed female trolls masquerading as attractive stylishly dressed Scandinavian blondes.
Thank you for the calrification.
… Mom?
In an e-mail dated “a few weeks” after the June 20, 2006 e-mail, “Price suggested that he and Ward invite a third — not Zaborsky — for a sexual encounter:
Price wrote, ”Hey love-of-my-life, I’m happy to give a third a try but only if you would like to try it. If ’scary’ means you are interested but that it is a little intimidating (I think it is) then we can give it a try, and I would think that while Vic is gone, maybe next Thursday evening?
To which Dylan Ward replied, “yes, intimidating. But we can try.Can’t know what its like without trying.”
SO, the timing is a bit off (Wone was killed in August and the emails above are June 2006), but the planned threesome that Price and Ward are discussing over email – did that finally materialize when Wone spent the night in August? This looks like premediation to me. Judge L kept asking AUSA Kirshner when the conspiracy began. Maybe these emails were it?
Premeditation of what? Wone and Price had a long term relationship. Maybe Price knew Wone was a sure thing.
Premeditation, probably not of murder, but of otherwise illegal acts (involuntary administration of a sedative, sexual assault, rape, etc.) that would lead to Mr. Wone’s death.
Timing doesn’t seem that far off. “A few weeks after” June 20th is mid-July, so only a couple of weeks at most before August 2. Just chilling.
Revealing is Victor’s inclusion of Michael in the anniversary card’s laundry list of family; also significant is his apparent exclusion of Lil Dyl, whose “smartassedness” probably grated upon the more staid Ma’am.
That’s huge. Exclusion of Dylan and inclusion of brother man Michael Price (who the trouple covered for later, vis a vis the sticky fingers home invasion by brother Mikey).
It’s striking to see the much speculated-upon theory that Joe and Dylan might try to schedule “play nights” when Victor was away confirmed in black and white.
Very good point (about the exclusion of Dyl).
Also interesting is the exclusion of JP’s parents, when VZ’s were included.
Indeed, HL.
It’s also interesting that this particular evening was never mentioned to Victor even though it was merely an innocent sleep-over.
Exactly.
That’s what we call “consciousness of guilt”.
The sin of omission?
Combined with the planned sin of commission? I am leaning more and more toward premeditated planning of some sort, given the wording of the June 20 email. The conspiracy, as others have said, must have began there!
While that could have been the conspiracy to involve someone in their “games,” would that not be a different conspiracy from this trial? Isn’t this trial a conspiracy to cover up what happened that night? Wouldn’t that June 20 e-mail go toward a different trial – one that is still coming?
Technically and legally, yes, even if the June 20 missive shows secrecy, duplicity, pressuring, etc. — the ingredients of a gathering storm. Although from an historical perspective, both conspiracies are part of the same narrative. And, this time, the cover-up was NOT worse than the crime.
No matter how hard I try, I just can’t get around this. Victor was supposed to be getting home late that night, and it doesn’t sound like anyone was going to go pick him up, so he’d probably take a cab. When were they going to tell him Robert was there? The next morning?
Yep, and then only if Victor didn’t sleep in.
BillO
We assume that Victor was home hours earlier, but I am beginning to wonder if “earlier flight” actually meant an entire day earlier.
David, co-ed
I really hope the prosecution checked this.
Excellent thought, David.
And I’m with BillO – hope the prosecution checked into this.
No, I think that Robert was meant to be disposed of way before Victor got home, maybe at the crack house location, with stab wounds from an unknown assailant if he was even ever found. The plan was to make it as though Robert just never arrived.
Really? I can’t believe that even Joe would plan to murder Robert. I think in his deluded arrogance he thought that they would somehow seduce and ‘convert’ Robert (maybe Joe imagined that he got some subtle encouragement?), or drug him so heavily that he would not remember, or they simply did not plan that far in advance. I think they assaulted him and overdid the drugs and thought he was dead.
Has anyone ever experienced what is called “conscious sedation”, as in a colonoscopy or oral surgery/tooth pulling? You have NO memory of what just happended to you. Trust me, when an oral surgeon yanks out your wisdom teeth and you wake up, groggy, but with NO memory of it, it is a weird experience. You can also have converations with your doctor (i.e., you are conscious) when you are drugged that you don’t remember AT ALL.
I wonder if the trouple had access to a drug (recreational or medical) with those powers. Sounds like they could have scored all sorts of drugs down at the gym (Results?) or via Brother Man Michael Price.
It’s called a hypnotic sedative, and spelled LUNESTA®
LUNESTA® is a registered trademark of Sepracor, Inc.
Greta,
Ketamine can sedate and cause amensia.
Let’s not forget the sleep-over wasn’t even mentioned that evening until Victor saw Dylan Ward making up the bed in the guest room. That’s when he found out that Robert Wone would be there that night.
I always thought it was telling that during his 4am session with the police, Victor says he asked Dylan why he was making up the sofa bed and Dylan told him that Robert was staying over. Then, Victor says he asked Joe if that was true and Joe told him it was. It seems totally weird to me that if one of the people I lived with told me we were having an overnight guest, I’d need to ask the other person living with me whether that was really true.
So did Victor just not trust Dylan generally, or did Victor really suspect that something else was going on? The e-mails certainly lend more credence to the latter.
And the trio had dinner together (burnt steak) and Robert’s visit apparently wasn’t mentioned. With Dylan making up the bed and answering the door when Robert arrived, that gives the impression that Dylan was very involved in plans for this visit.
Exactly, Bill 2. Dyl knew what was going to happen, even if he was too frightened to stop it.
And Victor hid upstairs, not even greeting Robert. He may have known as well.
Yes, agree, very striking.
This sheds so much light on things for me. Dylan is perpetually bored, isn’t he? It sounds like Dylan was his gateway drug to a hell of a lot of trouble.
his=Joe’s
Carolina – As usual, I concur with your comment. I posted above re: Dylan’s boredom with Joe coupled with Dylan’s financial dependance on Joe (I am speculating about the $ issue, but either way Dylan had it pretty good!).
We do seem of like minds. It makes me see Joe very, very differently. I am going to have to read, re-read and think long and hard about this. Not that the results will be earth shaking or even mildly important, but it does leave me wanting to reassess how I view this.
Please post the results of your reassessment! I also need to go back and review much of the material on this site. I find it difficult sometimes to process the new “twists” (like the above-described emails) I learn of, in light of what I have already read and opinions I have previously formed. Hats off to you, Hoya, CD, Bea, Bill O and many others who seem to do that with ease! And I am in total awe of the editors who do this on a daily basis!
Dylan may have been Joe’s sexual obsession personified. Seems Joe was delving deeper adn deeper in to sexual experimentation….Dylan was the conduit.
But Dyl’s seeming vacantness — which has led in Florida to his rentability for 90 minutes a pop plus tip — could never be satisfying to the uber-controlling Culuket, who may have done something irretrievably drastic to keep Ma’am AND Dyl AND Michael tied to him forever. Joe may have though that he was going to lose them all eventually, so he came up with this evil pact of silence, which predicated the sacrifice of Robert.
Oh Clio – that is so chilling! I would hate to think that is what happened, but it certainly is possible.
From the defense filing: “Price had a glass of water with Wone while standing around the island in the kitchen…”
It’s probably nothing, but is this the first time that we’ve heard anyone say that Price drank water, too? Wasn’t there only one dirty glass in the kitchen?
I don’t think so BillO…..Dylan mentions several times in his statement that they all “shared a glass of water.”
I hope that wasn’t literal.
doubt it, because I think (as do many others) that Robert’s was spiked with something (does Rohypnol have a taste?)
It is almost impossible to spike water with anything having a pharmacological effect without leaving a taste. Rohypnol and similar drugs are normally concealed in fermented or distilled spirits, not in water. Maybe that is why, when they discovered that Robert didn’t drink wine, they used xylene.
Not familiar with xylene, could it have been in water? Could he have taken a gulp with roho in it before he realized? DC water is pretty nasty. And remember, Robert’s eyes showed signs that he had been possibly asphyxiated, maybe they held something over his face.
Xylene is a liquid hydrocarbon. That is, it is vaguely similar to gasoline. The saying that water and oil don’t mix applies to liquids like xylene. It is lighter than water and would have been visible and oily on the water, as well as having an aroma (because it is what is known as an aromatic hydrocarbon). It would have been even more implausible to mix it with water than to add a date rape drug to water. Since traces of xylene were found, that was probably via asphyxiation.
The taste of DC water is the same as the taste of bottled water if they are both well chilled (in my opinion, and I drink well-chilled DC water). I think he would not have drunk a glass of warm DC water, and would have been able to taste a drug in cold DC water.
I would think getting someone to drink xylene would be like trying to persuade someone to drink a glass of paint thinner or nail polish remover.
Not a chance. Not to mention that nobody would have a clue about the dosage.
I don’t think so either, but maybe put it with some other stuff and put it over his face causing the marks of suffocation that were in Robert’s eyes, maybe?
Just because they said they drank water doesn’t mean they did. Maybe they gave him lemonade. Would the tartness of lemons mask the flavor?
Not my field, but I guesss xylene as an asphyxiant is possible.
Also not my field, but possibly the xylene was used as a solvent or diluent for some other chemical.
It would be more like getting someone to drink paint thinner or gasoline. Nail polish remover is acetone and will mix with water. However, it has a distinctive odor.
I’m not so sure about that Bob. For example, young women are strongly cautioned against taking water bottles at rave parties from men that they don’t know due to incidents of drugged sexual abuse. I don’t know about Rohypnon specifically but I do know that there are date-rape drugs that are tasteless in water.
I will take your word that there are date-rape drugs that are nearly tasteless in cold water.
It would have been impossible to put the xylene in water.
I agree with you about that, xylene is usually associated with teens who “huff” chemicals. The brand Axe body spray (popular with some teens I am told, revolting stuff) is famous for having a high xylene content ideal for huffing. Apparently it makes you very high and uninhibited (not sleepy though I don’t think). This also seems like a very not Mercedes, Mercedes, Mercedes type high for this company, but the xylene was there in Robert’s blood.
If tamponade occurred, couldn’t it have caused the very mild petechiae?
Especially given their proclivities. Nasty. LOL
Does anyone else think that Victor comes off an someone who is in so much denial that it’s just pathetic? If you want to be in three-way relationship, that’s your business. Ditto for the BDSM angle. But how much willful ignorance does it take to write this? “Family bonds are very strong, and I am very happy that you and I have forged that bond.” Dude, he moved his BDSM dominant into the room right below yours. I’ve said this before, but it’s worth saying again: Even Tammy Wynette wouldn’t have put up with this.
BillO, you should have pulled Victor aside.
Victor *is* my mother, the long suffering “good person” who never met a stranger and saw no bad in anyone. She stood by my father and his womanizing for decades because divorce was unthinkable, and besides, he always “came back home.” Not that he ever left, physically, but I’m sure you understand what I mean. She put it down to a midlife crisis that lasted just a little too long.
I think Victor was invested in the “Gay Poster Boy” life he had. If he’d had the right partner, he would have been that perfect example for gay parents. While Victor reveled in his life, family and those he loved, I think Joe was fighting what so many gay men face: getting old. Dylan was letting him be young, adventurous and exciting again.
I have no idea if or how any of this contributed to Robert’s horrible murder, but it certainly colors in the background for me.
Meh. I think Victor needs a sassy gay friend even more than Ophelia does:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnvgq8STMGM
BillO,
Now those sassy gay friend vids are downright LOL funny. What’s worse is how they really pertain to our dear Victor.
David, co-ed.
BillO-
Magic, sparkle, “smartassness”, chic, excitement!
Oh my…Forget “sassy gay friend”
Victor needs to watch “Bad Romance” NOW.
The fabulous fun stops at the end, when you realize someone is dead.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qrO4YZeyl0I
I think listening to New Order’s Bizarre Love Triangle would be more appropriate — the lyrics are perfect:
I feel fine and I feel good
I’m feeling like I never should
Whenever I get this way
I just don’t know what to say
Why can’t we be ourselves like we were yesterday
I’m not sure what this could mean
I don’t think you’re what you seem
I do admit to myself
That if I hurt someone else
Then I’ll never see just what we’re meant to be
That was sooooo funny! Thanks for sharing with us all.
Agreed, LOL. One can never be too sassy!
Good lord, sassy gay friend made my day!
Thanks for the great laugh – I’m going to have to watch ALL of his videos now … say bye-bye to the yard work!
Bye-bye, yard work, gotta date with my sassy gay friend.
Wasn’t Dylan older than Joe. If I’m not mistaken wasn’t Joe the youngest of the three.
Yes. Joe is the baby of the family … in more ways than one, perhaps.
Despite all the clever commenters on this site, I have to say nothing has ever really made me laugh out loud. Until your Tammy Wynette comment! That sent me howling. Thanks for a little levity amid all this ponderous stuff.
The prosecution’s point that Joe/Victor did not check on Dylan immediately after discovering the murder means that the prosecution is using their statements about this “for truth,” i.e., that Joe and Victor in fact did not cheeck on Dylan immediately after the killing. Once again, the prosecution seems confused about the for truth/not for truth aspect of their statements.
I guess that’s because the prosecution has made the point that if they lied, then they’re guilty. So either scenario (1. they did check Dyl but they lied on the statement or 2. they didn’t check Dyl) could both support the government’s argument from different perspective.
CC Biggs,
I thought the government entered all the statements for truth and will just let the judge determine what is for truth and what is not. They did not make the call. This even came directly from Liebovitz’s own declarations that they should just enter them for truth and let her decide.
David, co-ed.
The impression I have after reading the emails is Joe would probably go extreme to keep Dyl and their “magic” relationship alive. Drug and take exotic photos to a straight friend might sound crazy for most people, but it might be something Joe thought worthy to try. The only thing bothers me is that if Victor was not calculated in the original plan, how the due would be sure he wont find it out? I would like to know how Victor normally reacted when Joe and Dyl having their intimate time? Did he usually try to avoid the scene by staying on the 3rd floor all by his own?
Sorry for the typo, should be Duo
USA SCORES!
Do they have “sudden death” in the World Cup, or do they go directly into a shootout?
Of course, all references to “sudden death” in any sport except the Mayan ball court game are figurative. The primary purpose of this forum is to discuss a real sudden death. (It doesn’t matter whether he lived for 5 minutes, 13 minutes, or 60 minutes.)
According to my son there are two 15-minute “overtimes” – not sudden death. Then if tied they proceed to penalty kicks. But my son is 11 and hasn’t played soccer in years so don’t take this to the bank!
The Mayan ball court game was always played to sudden death, as was whatever went on at Swann Street.
I haven’t been able to deal with soccer since last June when I learned that Christiano Ronaldo slept with Paris Hilton.
Wow, talk about battle of the purses.
In the anniversary card, Victor doesn’t mention Dyl when referencing his and Joe’s family. Victor wanted to celebrate “next year” because it was his hope and expectation that Dyl would be history by then. Which shows how deep in the sand Victor had(has) his head.
Joe’s e-mail doesn’t sound like he’s suggesting a third , it sounds like a response to Dylan’s suggestion of a third.
Dylan wanted to move up to the master bedroom and kick Vic to the curb. But it was taking too long, so what’s a mistress to do? Pull back. Become disinterested. That can drive a lover nuts when you’re what they want. So eventually, they’ll do anything to keep you, to keep the thrill. Anything.
Silly Joe. He hought he was in charge in that house.
Rest in peace Robert.
for some reason they didn’t celebrate that year….it’s almost like Victor was saying “can we can we celebrate next year?”
Sounds like he was trying to reassure himself.
After seeing this correspondence, I am even more angry/disappointed in Victor that he won’t come clean about this. It’s clear that Joe would do anything to keep Dylan interested, and unfortunately Robert unwittingly presented himself as an opportunity, and things went south. Victor needs to come clean, and the guilty party(ies) need to be punished.
Apropos of nothing, today’s opera on WETA ended with someone dramatically confessing to the crime in the courtroom and then shooting himself.
If they had all just gone to an opera or a play or a ball game or a committee meeting, then none of this would have ever happened. Who knew that “an intruder” would have picked that house and that evening to strike!
Dyl intruding on Victor’s strong ties? Victor intruding on Joe and Dyl’s night of fun? Lots of intruding was going on anyway!
It’s hard for me to beliieve what the prosecution said about the knife……that Joe’s more factual account was shared with his friends…….I see Joe telling his friends that he pulled the knife out of robert’s chest as BRAGGING. As in, look at me…I pulled the knife out of his chest…oh the drama. I see it as an embellisment…not a fact.
I wonder if they were going for irony. He was bragging when he told his friends, but beneath that was truth. He’d pulled the knife from Robert’s chest not once, but three times.
Why is it still so hard for me to see him as the murderer?
Given the gravity of the situation, I don’t think someone says something like that to “brag.” He was in grave trouble with the law at that point and he knew it. He just came from the police station! I think he said it because it was True. And then he said it again to another friend. And then the topic of blood came up. And he was…silent. And then it came up again and he mentions panicking and cleaning up.
To me, Joe’s entire videotaped interview comes off as someone who is slowly coming to the realization that he’s completely blown it.
Here’s my take. I think the plan was simple: This is the story about what happened tonight. Stick to it. If the police ask about ANYTHING outside of tonight, tell them the truth. Do whatever they ask. Keep your cool. They’ll lie to you and say someone else is confessing. It’s a trick. Just stick to the plan.
Victor is the only one who came close to pulling it off. Dylan realized he was in way over his head when the lie-detector test came up. He knew he should have refused it, but the plan was to do whatever the police asked, so he went ahead with it. Joe realizes things aren’t working when it becomes clear to him that the police aren’t buying it. Furthermore, when the lie-detector test comes up, he says he’ll do it, but he backs out at the end. But his demeanor seems to change at that point, because he knows that the police are going to be asking Victor and Dylan about lie-detector tests, too, and he already told them to do whatever the police asked. That’s when he really starts pressing to talk to Victor and Dylan again.
You mention one thing that I wasn’t fully aware of until recently. That is, the police are permitted to lie to you during an interrogation and it’s completely permitted. They can tell you anything, and it’s completely okay.
Of course, you have the right to end the interrogation at any time by exercising your right to remain silent and exercising your right to counsel.
Maybe I’m naive, but I always thought there were boundaries as to what the police can say to elicit information from you.
Now, Joe Price would have certainly known the above.
Price probably had no previous experience with law enforcement. (Maybe with his brother). He would have been totally unaware of the prevalence of lying by police as a “tactic”. Most people are appalled when they find out.
The bigger problem than as an interrogation tactic is when does the lying stop and when is it still seen as a valid way to get a conviction.
Untrue, Tasso. Joe dabbled in criminal law per his “bio” on the Arent Fox website. Any lawyer knows that cops lie as a tactic. Also, any person who’s ever watched a cop movie or TV show.
Fiddle-Faddle, Joe watched plenty of TV and is a lawyer it is absolutely not credible that he would not know this.
Hi all;
Apologies if this has been touched on before… How much discretion does the judge have in sentencing? I’ve only read the defense Motion for Judgment of Acquittal & the gubm’t response, but any fool can see convictions in the future.
As far as I can tell, obstruction of justice carries a maximum of 30 years, § 22-722(b). I wonder if there are sentencing guidelines, and if not, whether the judge can impose a verrrry lengthy sentence on the obstruction count as a proxy for (what should have been) a murder conviction.
Not a criminal lawyer, obviously, but nonetheless curious.
— ET!
ET,
My impression is that she can hit them with just about anything. Based on her demeanor as a no-nonsense judge, and considering the gravity of the underlying crime, I would expect her to hand out 5-10 years per charge, served consecutively.
Thanks for the info. I wasn’t sure if there were (quasi-mandatory) sentencing guidelines that would mitigate against a lengthy sentence.
So much about this case is heartbreaking. I feel contempt for the person(s) who killed Mr. Wone, and I empathize with Mrs. Wone’s grief. I also believe the three were complicit (at a minimum) in that killing, which also merits contempt. Part of me thinks they thought they could outsmart the DCPD, and I’ll admit to enough schadenfreude to relish the downfall of the arrogant.
But the relationship dynamic between the three is dissertation-worthy & makes me profoundly sad. Who doesn’t want to be in a stable, loving relationship? And I think their tomcatting masked a fundamental & profound unhappiness. Which brings me to the lack of pleading out: I’m reminded of the play (name escapes me) where the protagonist takes a file to his mouth so he can contract AIDS from his lover. Their silence isn’t QUITE a three-way suicide pact, but it’s close.
As for the bandying about of the e-mails & advertisements… Yes, I recognize its purpose and its use, but I still find it unseemly. I’m cautious in my e-mails even to my wife, but it’s such an invasion of privacy & I’d hate having the world review my off the cuff expressions of affection.
Of course, I’ve not murdered anyone. Hope the fuckers rot for decades.
Enjointhis – great post! Re: your point regarding caution with emails – I have worked as in-house counsel for a number of companies over the years, and one of my responsibilities was to train employees regarding communications. They were told to treat every email as if it was going to be public one day, which is a good rule of thumb for both business and personal emails. I can only hope that Joe wasn’t using his law firm email account, but given that he had erotic pictures of himself on his work computer I wouldn’t be surprised if he exhibited a similar lack of discretion with his emails.
He used the AF email for his start up porn biz. That says about all that needs be said.
Yep – Checkmate! Un-freaking-believable!
When is that porn biz going to start up: we’re all still waiting, NOT!
Victor’s anniversary message to Joe mentioned “family” three times in that excerpt, hoping against hope that Culuket appreciated what he and Victor have had together. It’s as if Victor was trying to convince himself that their “forged” ties were “strong.” But wasn’t it in 2006 that Victor and Joe sought legal recognition of their partnership?
Irony abounded here as Joe, who had picked steady Victor in 2000 on the rebound from a previous cheating boyfriend, now felt “magic” only with mistress Dyl, who still does not appear to be much “a smart ass” to the outside world.
Was there more to the email? “give a third a try” certainly sounds like he is referring to a sexual partner, but it could also refer to a third drug, a third dose of a drug, placement of a third weight… Perhaps one more knowledgeable than I am about their activities could fill in other possible meanings? I agree that a threesome, alone, wouldn’t evoke the terms used by Joe and Ward. While the reference, at first read, sounds obvious, clearly there was some conversation that preceded it, and it sounds a bit cryptic, given Joe’s other, very open expressions.
How about “a third” as in a third ADDITIONAL person? As in they’ve already done three-ways and fourgies, and now they’re moving on to five-person sex?
I agree with you that a three-way really doesn’t seem like something that could intimidate these two.
Several days ago, the update or wrap mentioned that Victor was upset when the lawyers and judge were discussing e-mail that was being entered as evidence. Now that we read some of the content, it’s easy to see why he wouldn’t want the judge to see the reality of what they were trying to pass off as a loving “family” in the trial. Not only does the judge see this evidence, but it’s also available to his parents and to the general public. In Victor’s words, we can see he doesn’t consider Dylan to be a part of the family.
It’s fairly clear that Victor worships the very dirt that Joe treats him like. I’m not surprised he wouldn’t want his parents to know this.
I wonder when Victor first found out about the emails.
I’m also wondering about all that “we’re trying to make this a family” business he was telling the cops.
Well, the “we” in “we’re trying to make this a family” is the imperial “we” of Culuket: “our knives”, etc. Window dressing never cost so much.
“Trying” is key because that inclusion had not happened by March or April, where the strong family ties had already been “forged.”
And, the whole correspondence further undermines his credibility, already damaged by the odd nuances of the 911 call.
We’re not seeing all the emails, but the one where Joe refers to Dylan as “love-of-my-life” likely didn’t sit well with Victor. Life partners kind of expect to be the love-of-the-life.
The government’s brief linked to above is the single strongest piece of work generated in this case. It is a very detailed and powerful assemblage of facts that (in my view) establish guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. I don’t see how any of the defendants can be acquitted of all charges in light of the overwhelming evidence against them.
I only skimmed it, but I agree that it looked VERY solid. It would have been a nice little check-list for the judge to keep handy during the defense’s case to see if all of the evidence could be explained away. Personally, I doubt it.
What I was struck by in the government’s opposition, aside from the more sensational e-mails and cards, was the fact that DC expanded the obstruction law in 1992, so that it would have a broad reach i.e. misleading the police. It does not have a narrowly defined obstruction law. I think that really hurts the defendants.
Second, they note several material omissions from the statements. For example, if Price cleaned up even a little blood because someone was freaking out, they did not note that to police that night. That is obstruction of justice right there.
David, co-ed
Joe referring to Dylan as “love of my life” must sting (sparkly cat or not). Victor’s card does not include Dylan in his lengthy list of family which even included Michael. It appears that Joe was the one with the “idea” to troll for a third to keep Dylan engaged, and we know from Scott Hixson’s testimony that they’d had at least one third (the night before that person ‘had’ Hixson) but I’m surprised this was first beginning in the summer of 2006. Relative newbies – yet Culuket goes full force with the ad – that plus Joe raising it says that Joe was the one really wanting it despite thinking it might also ‘keep’ Dylan. Important to remember that Dylan was highlighting his Dom For Dummies books, not that it even was his desire.
Wondering how the commitment ceremony with Joe and Victor becoming official domestic partners in April 2006 “sat” with Dylan. Best man? He must have had some pride, that that had to sting – unless Joe kept it a secret? Too, if Dylan joined in 2003, then the USA Today article lauding the Happy Gay Family which came out in 2004 must’ve stung too. Always being put in the closet – for Arent Fox and Alumni parties, newspaper photos, commitment ceremonies. . .
Mostly this makes me see how out of control Joe was. It does not sound like a three-way family from Victor’s perspective – it’s classic polygamy (even if Dylan and Victor had slept together, they lived separately with Joe). Bill Henriksen in “Big Love” had everyone on board from a religious perspective, but Dylan pulling away did not sit well. Not that he was able to give up Victor OR Dylan to make the other happy, because it was all about Joe.
I don’t see Dylan as the lead character in anything, including what happened on August 2. In my opinion, Joe always made the big decisions, including that night.
Bea says: “Joe and Victor becoming official domestic partners in April 2006”
I wonder if this was a strategic move on Joe’s part to secure/prevent any financial disparity upon a planned break in their relationship.
I saw it more as a way for Joe to appease Victor while Joe turned cartwheels to keep Dylan.
I’m still trying to process the arrival of Princess Sparkle Kitty. Every time I think this just can’t get any weirder, it does.
Yet, was Joe trying “to trade up” with the liaison with Mr. Hixson, who, by several accounts, was/is better looking than either Victor or Dyl?
Dyl’s pursuit of the erotic was not explicitly caught up with his commerce in 2006; that came only after his sojourn in Thailand. So, his apprehension over a menage-a-trois, especially with whips and chains, may have been real. Now, with Joe probably out of his bedroom for good, Dyl has been seemingly free to pursue the fantasies of his choice, especially in the libertine climes of southern Florida. Wilton Manors, take care!
Bea, a tad less caffeine perhaps?
Does anyone here happen to know if any of the three are left-handed?
Sara, intriguing question. Care to say more?
I think that she means that, if so, they didn’t make the knife wounds, which were made with a right hand.
Joe’s question to Victor as recorded by an officer: “Isn’t he our friend?” takes on additional importance with the release of this electronic correspondence. Was the friend Robert, or was it Dyl? Both Robert and Dyl were friends of Joe, but maybe not friends of Victor … at least not in 2006.
I have to say that comment “Isn’t he our friend” is so chilling to me. What does that mean? I can’t think of anything that explains him saying that….except if he was coming out of a total blackout or something.
Some random thoughts:
JP and VZ knew R. Wone but DW didn’t really know him. I think whatever happened that night was instigated by some interest expressed by DW and JP wanting to please him, went along with whatever it was, perhaps took the lead.
I think JP was committed to VZ in some way, by the fact that he had the commitment ceremony with him but also by the fact that it looks like he didn’t really have his parents in his life. It sounds like VZ was prob. a grounding force for JP.
Someone posted earlier and JP says in his W&M interview that he didn’t really date in college. But around the time of the murder he had recently made partner (had he not?) or at least had recently bought the house and was clearly getting or already established and it seems he started really getting into sewing his wild oats then.
Re the DW BDSM manual: He could have had that for ages, unless there’s proof of recent purchase. I have to wonder if he didn’t have those dom tendencies beforehand or even have been in that role before. Or else like others have posted, he was easily malleable. I just know that I don’t think you could take an average person and make them amenable to torturing someone even if that other person asked for it. If it’s just not your thing it’s not your thing. The fact that he had all sorts of supportive apparati suggests he was able to get into it. Also there are the books he had, etc.
Dyl could “get into” anything, including Joe, for a few years or months, only to “get into” something else. “We’ll only know if we try”, says his response to Culuket’s invitation for a “third”.
Joe did date in law school at UVA and before Victor, but he only got unconditional love in 2000 when he met the milk marketer.
Remember that VZ tried to distance himself from knowing Robert: in fact, both VZ and DW denied really knowing Robert at least three times before the cock crowed that morning in their “Anacostia Dialogues”.
Thanks. When did they deny really knowing him?
Wow, like Peter and Jesus (3 times), strange. I wonder if Victor came to regret that later as Peter did, that off handedness that denial of this kind person. Dylan, I would imagine, couldn’t care less and probably didn’t know Robert really.
To this thread…I here you and as unconventional as the 3-somes relationship was, I’m not sure I get the just of what the state of their sex/relationship affairs has to do with Robert’s murder.
If their relationships were all over the place, did one, two or the three of them just have a bad day on August 2nd and snapped?
Did Joe and Dylan use Robert as “that third” and it just went all wrong?
It’s such a mess and so confusing.
Simple talk of the three and their twistedness makes my stomach sick.
Is it wrong that I hate them?
It wouldn’t do for me to see them on the street…hense why I didn’t go to the trial, bad as I wanted to.
Sorry, I guess I just let my emotions out about this whole injustice to Robert.
I so hope these three get put away for a long time so they can live with themselves ALONE and SEPERATE from each other and live with what they have done.
Let me clarify just for the record, that I am not a violent person…and IF I did see them on the street I would just give them a piece of my mind…nothing violent.
Jim’s Theory
Joe is worried that he is going to lose Dylan and is trying to figure out a way to keep the excitement and interest going in there relationship. He has already talked about bringing in a 3rd person (not Victor). Maybe they have made some attempts with a third that haven’t been to successful in keeping the magic. Joe latches on to the idea of fulfilling Dylan’s fantasy of forcing an Asian man into sex. Joe convinces Robert who is curious to participate or takes advantage of the opportunity his overnight stay presents without Robert’s cooperation.
Robert arrives at the house at 10:30 PM. Joe, Robert and Dylan have a glass of “water” (perhaps laced with some date rape drug to encourage cooperation) before going to bed. Victor is sent off to bed earlier as he is not part of the sex plan. Joe and Dylan show up in the guest room as Robert is undressing and they start to fondle Robert. Special K is injected into Robert by Joe or Dylan to encourage cooperation and to combat Robert’s reluctance to participate. Robert resists further and they add some extra Special K. Dylan has convinced Joe that Robert won’t remember anything in the morning.
Joe’s excitement fantasy is fulfilled. Joe is having more fun than Dylan. He has had a sexual fantasy about Robert for years, and here it is being fulfilled. What a rush! In this drug state Joe gets Robert to ejaculate and takes the semen from the floor and covers a dildo with it and gives the dildo to Dylan to plug Robert up the ass. Joe meanwhile begins sucking Robert and beating himself off. Dylan participating but watching more than enjoying is Angry and Jealous that Joe is hungry for Robert. He jabs Robert with some more Special K to deaden their pleasure.
Robert and Joe are at the edge of climax and Dylan places his hand over Robert’s mouth and nose to suffocate Robert. Dylan has some success in harming Robert, but Dylan doesn’t think it is working.
Frustrated, Dylan leaves the room as he listens to Robert and Joe come to climax. In a rage, Dylan grabs the knife in his room and comes back to the guest room.
Robert is on the floor motionless but with cum all over himself and on the floor. Joe has a big grin on his face and Joe’s semen is coating his body and the floor near Robert. Dylan crosses the room and stabs Robert with his knife three times. Robert does not struggle because he has too much Special K in his system and has just suffered a brief bout of asphyxiation. Blood pours onto the floor and mixes with the semen from Joe and Robert. Joe in disbelief reaches for the knife within his friend’s body.
Victor hearing Dylan’s movements and the commotion in the house walks downstairs to see what is going on. He walks into the room to see blood on the floor and Joe above Robert’s body with his hand on the knife. Victor screams as he watches Joe pull the knife from Robert’s body.
Joe explains to Victor that it was Dylan that killed Robert, as he embraces Victor and tells him how much he loves him. All of the men are naked as Victor does not sleep in his underwear. The blood on the floor and the knife has been touched by Dylan, Joe and now Victor, but there aren’t any clothes that have been stained.
Joe takes charge and instructs Victor and Dylan to take showers while he figures out what to do. Joe looks at his semen on the floor mingled with the blood and knows that he can’t call the police. Dylan may say that it was Joe that killed Robert. Joe’s finger prints are on the knife and Joe’s semen is mixed in the blood. Joe is afraid and probably not so clear headed due to drugs and the effects of watching his friend die. Joe decides to clean up the crime scene and remove the evidence that he was having sex with Robert.
Joe cleans up some of the blood, takes a shower and puts on some underwear. Joe unwisely decides to take a kitchen knife and exchange if for the murder weapon, placing blood on the knife. (He would have been better off with no murder weapon on site, implying that the intruder took the weapon with him.) Joe cleans up Robert, dresses him and places him in the bed. Victor may have helped Joe with some of the details. I doubt that Dylan did much of anything to help to create the conspiracy outside of learning his lines.
It is odd that Robert’s t-shirt is clean and showing little blood, despite the incisions of the knife. I think that Robert had his shirt on when, Joe and Dylan first came into the room, and they engage in sex with the t-shirt on Robert. Perhaps Joe had gotten some of his semen on Robert’s shirt or was afraid to leave evidence of Robert’s semen on the shirt as it would imply a sexual incident. Joe washes Robert’s t-shirt and places the shirt back onto Robert after it is washed and dried. Evidence of blood is left in the lent filter of the dryer.
Joe creates his story of an intruder coming into the house and has Victor call 911.
Still don’t understand why the DC police do not test for Special K or other drugs when they see the three incisions that are clean with no signs of struggle.
Anyway, that’s my theory.
Jim, that seems plausible, yet how did Joe and company get rid of the really incriminating stuff (cameras, sheets, the knife, etc.)? Was Michael summoned as bag man in this scenario?
The thought of them all “sleeping” au naturel is especially disturbing, but it would explain the lack of blood on Joe’s undies or any other “nightgowns”.
You’d be good writing for “Penthouse Murder Forum”.
This is excessively detailed, and frankly prurient speculation. Do you not see how ludicrous (and weird) it is to go into that level of detail. Creepy. I’m sorry to see this site deteriorating as people fill empty days.
I agree that that narrative is pretty silly, unnecessarily prurient not to mention impossible based on a myriad of facts that I won’t bother pointing out. In any case I always ignore anything posted by anyone who doesn’t understand the difference between “their” and “there” on the basis that the writer is a moron.
BUT- That is the prosecutor’s theory almost word for word.
I don’t know that Jim’s theory is almost the prosecutors theory “word for word”; however, if you believe that one, some or all of the trouple were involved in the murder, then (I believe) you have to believe there were some strange goings on in the townhouse that night.
So, from that perspective, Jim’s theory, although unnecessarily graphic, has some aspects to it that are well within the realm of possibility and perhaps within the realm of probability.
My main point is that speculation, and of course that is all it can be, on such a graphic level sort of crossed the line into seeming like “jim” was …enjoying writing the post.
Yes, creepy in the extreme and not necessary. I thought is was bad enough when I caught Ben’s excitement as he typed “sudden, stunning, forceful” over and over and over again then obviously went into an erotic swoon.
I find it unfair to criticize the entire website based on one post.
🙁
Ugh. Is this going to be part of “If I Did It” by Dylan Ward or Joe Price?
Quoting the above:
“Price wrote, ”Hey love-of-my-life,
I’m happy to give a third a try but
only if you would like to try it. If
’scary’ means you are interested but
that it is a little intimidating (I think it
is) then we can give it a try, and I
would think that while Vic is gone,
maybe next Thursday evening?
To which Dylan Ward replied, “yes,
intimidating. But we can try can’t
know what its like without trying.”
—
Does it seem at all possible that the reason they are expressing “intimidation” about the prospect of a third party is not because they are worried about rejection or awkward couplings but because they are talking about trying to get away with more than that? Like subduing somebody?
Would it really be scary/unprecedented for them to have a third (willing) party in the mix? It appears from the surprise Hixson courtroom aside like that was already going on- right? Are we to assume this email precedes any such gonadial trifecta?
I’m probably reading too much into this particular issue- but hell, it’s hard not to. Adding the emails to the bigger list of known and troubling facts about the Trouple- I’m inclined to always assume the darkest interpretation is the right one.
Dyl was worried about a three-way with Joe involved, knowing how needy that his patron could be in the bedroom. He probably had done a few three-ways before, perhaps at the Crew Club, and he had found them disappointing (as most gay men do). And now, Joe had summoned him to perform in “thirds” to resuscitate their flagging love: how tiresome and “scary” at the same time that must have been for Mr. Ward!
The cryptic language about “thirds” is a bit recherche for this topic, perhaps foreshadowing more adventuresome plans on the part of Mr. Price than even Mr. Ward could not countenance.
That’s a very good point. The hesitation about a threesome for this kooky group made no sense, unless, between them, it implied something more…daring.
Agree. The emails provide a motive; without the emails, we were leaping to the “joe and dyl wanted to have fun with straight Robert.” With the emails, it appears that Joe was trying to keep Dyl interested in the relationship. If Dyl did, indeed, have interest in Asian men, and the three-way interest was geared more to an unsuspecting third, the entire scenario sounds much more likely.
Perhaps giving “a third a try” referred to a potential third attempt to sedate someone, sexually assault them and photograph and video tape that encounter.
Hopefully, while their previous two victims might not remember what happened, they lived on in spite of their rape, which were perhaps attempted but were ultimately never fulfilled.
Its difficult to pretend that this polygamous household, with Culuket’s altcom listing, workplace porn collection, Dylan’s special erotic message rates for couples, Crew Club memberships, Eye Candy ventures, huge S&M toy stash, etc., was struggling with the ethics of having three-way sex.
No, their “third” attempt probably went wrong in a different way, as they provided too much sedative to Robert.
Again, no cameras, tripods or video recorders were found in this household (except for a lone disposable camera).
No playsheets were found among Dylan’s well-stocked S&M inventory, in this freakishly clean household.
Only traces of drugs were found in the home of Culuket. Nothing else.
And of course, no sheets and towels soaked in blood were found.
Just restating the obvious.
Only Michael and/or Sarah could have sped long away with all of this evidence.
With due respect to CD’s nearby dumpster theory, folks already this involved in covering up Robert’s murder likely wouldn’t leave this final detail to chance.
This can’t be too strongly stressed.
Joe apparently was obsessed with photo porn. He uploaded countless photos of himself engaging in SM/BD sex onto his office computer. He tried to establish a photo porn website called “Eye Candy.” Yet no photographic equipment was found in his house, aside from one disposable instamatic. Where did it all go?
There could be an innocent explanation, just as there could be for most of that evening’s incongruities. But, like so many other things here, it seems very strange.
I agree that this is important.
Note that these few emails and cards have been hand-selected from a larger message stream by the prosecution, so we know very little about the context of these particular messages.
That said, people in triangles can’t write things like “love of my life” or “all my love” without running some risks.
Mr. Ward might compare such expressions to his actual status sleeping downstairs, while Mr. Zaborsky (were he to see the messages, as he eventually did) might wonder about his present role and future status.
Ben Franklin suggested a while ago that the ninja was actually after Dylan Ward, and got the wrong room. Ben went on to suggest that some unknown acquaintance of Mr. Ward might be the culprit.
But there is somebody who might have reason to think his quality of life would improve if Dylan Ward were to depart suddenly.
Are you suggesting that Victor may have hired someone to take out Ward and they got Wone instead? Would Victor have the “contacts” to actually set that up. I think Victor would be extremely hurt and depressed by Price’s lack of loyalty, but I don’t see setting up a hit on Dylan.
Interesting suggestion. However, if Victor had hired help, wouldn’t he make sure that he had an airtight alibi for the night of the hit? My knowledge of hitmen comes from TV, but I’d guess that your average hitman would balk at killing someone before midnight in a small house where three other people were sleeping.
No, that scenario is pure nuts. Victor is/was too much of a Victorian lady — he’s the doll in Ibsen’s Dollhouse — to try anything so rash.
If I were Victor, then I may have briefly considered a hit on Joe instead, if not immediately after the murder, then especially after the Culuket personal ad leaked, the eyecandy dvds BS broke, and now these dreadful emails. And, if I were Victor, I would have “hit on” Dyl very early on in order to get him out of Mr. Price’s life. Culuket would not have liked either the company or the competition!
Nah. I don’t actually think Mr. Zaborsky ordered up a hit for a whole raft of good reasons. I’m just twisting the rubik’s cube of evidence in various directions to see if an interesting pattern pops up. This is a crime where an understandable motive is hard to find, and here we find an understandable motive.
Also, the ninja theory is slightly less ridiculous if the ninja had the cooperation of somebody in the house. (He had a key and the alarm codes, and he came in the front door). However, the ninja theory is still comprehensively inconsistent with the physical evidence.
In real life, hired killers generally turn out to be lowlifes with low, sloping foreheads who are too dumb to know that blackmailing the customer is both safer and more lucrative than actually committing a murder. Mr. Zaborsky would have extreme difficulty in finding or employing an assassin who would actually do the crime.
Anyway, if he did employ an assassin, one would think it would be arranged under circumstances where he was not implicated. If Mr. Ward had been murdered, Mr. Zaborsky would have been an obvious suspect.
That was me not Ben. In a murder the normal occupants are always presumed at least as likely to have been a target, if there were one, as a guest. At least in a decent investigation. Ward was the normal sole occupant of the second floor and about the same size as the victim. And Ward was the one who made up the sofa bed if anyone were hidden in a closet, etc. Plus Ward had numerous partners. I understand that questioning about sex partners, in a homosexual context, may be repugnant to these detectives, but it appalls me it was never considered. Even if it’s a long shot. I’d like to know who the murderer is.
As good a lawyer as Connally is, I wouldn’t describe him as his staff as ninjas.
Would a hired gun go into a house at 11 pm when the lights in Dylan’s room were still on?
You didn’t mention my typo of “as” instead of “and” above. Thank you.
The light in a room may be more reason not to enter that room. The more damning volunteered testimony which everyone keeps overlooking is that they heard the victim latch or lock his door, which is expected of a guest. I do even at relatives’ for privacy. Someone would only open a latched door for a knock and intruders rarely knock. (That and the still-made bed which may be of lesser importance as it was hot and a guest may be considerate).
Did Dyl have numerous partners THEN, Tasso? Maybe Joe, maybe the Hixson vixen, his trick, and that’s it … for all of 2006? Mr. Ward was “scared” of having a three-way involving Joe: Lil Dyl does not now seem to be quite the slut (at least in 2006) that was portrayed earlier.
Remember that Dyl only started charging for massages after he came back from Thailand.
The narrative has done a 180.
“…Remember that Dyl only started charging for massages after he came back from Thailand.”
I’m not sure that we know that. In fact, I would wager that the talented Mr. Dyl was already a full fledged prostitute before he signed on to bring live-in color and magic to Joe’s life full-time.
“Mr. Ward was “scared” of having a three-way involving Joe”
Are you sure he was scared of just a three-way? Perhaps a three-way was no problem. Perhaps a three-way that involves drugging someone to play games and take porn photos was what he was not too sure about. I think that a mere three-way did not intimidate Dylan Ward. The idea of a situation whereby the third person is not aware of what is happening is what made him unsure.
To be honest, I have never believed Dylan heard Robert shower or return to his room, so I had not given that any thought. Very interesting, though.
You may have all the typos you wish. I decree this as Typo King.
As Typo King, are you also willing to allow the editors their typo in the title of this section of this forum?
Honest question here. Can you conceive of any way that the intruder story could be true?
Oh lord. That will just invite flamers like crazy. I’d only do 2 or 3 possible ones with flame immunity.
That was funny, Tasso. You’re a very good sport!
Thanks for the smile.
Regards,
Kate
You wrote: “Honest question here. Can you conceive of any way that the intruder story could be true?” Do you mean in this world, or in a world like Harry Potter or Middle-Earth that has magic?
Robert was 5’3 and Dyl is about 5’7, that’s quite a big difference. And for a second, I can accept the assumption that the killer was not well informed the location of Dyl’s room. But why he would bypass the first room on the top of the stairs? Shouldn’t he at least check it out first? And Dyl said he heard Robert locked the door (or at least closed it).
And it was not like they have a hundred rooms on the 2nd floor. It actually would take a bit effort to overlook Dyl’s room considering its location. And speaking of a pro. would have to take a murder weapon from the kitchen, that was just, uh, let’s say, unprofessional.
Has anyone thought of the possibility that Victor disliked the fact that Joe wanted Dylan in addition to him, and possibly came home early to kill his friend to get back at Joe?
I think we have a winner here.
Are you serious?
Danali, For introducing “gonadial trifecta” into the discussion, you have my unending gratitude.
I struggled with that couplet, gertiestn, I must admit… (But it does feel like an entirely different lexicon is often needed to describe the goings-on at 1509 Swann Street!)
These emails shed a lot of light on the situation that Aug 2006. Everyone wants to ‘maintain Robert’s dignity’ which apparently means refusing to consider alternate orientation and I believe after four years of fighting it that this is a mistake. Early 30s is young enough to marry for societal reasons and those with s.t. To hide are good at covering tracks, such as sending an email to two friends about a sleepover knowing it was pre-agreed who would respond quickly. Thursday night was BDSM night at Swann St and that’s why Sarah was gone (it’s a loud hobby) and why Robert was there. Something went wrong, however, and the methodical stabbing is a cover up. Michael Price was not involved; would the guilty really rob the place two months later? Please. I know this is an unpopular view that is considered ignorant, but I believe it’s the truth.
Try to explain the two unsend email msgs. in Robert’s blackberry at 11:05 and 11:07?
I think your scenario about Robert’s voluntary participation runs afoul the evidence that Robert was wearing a mouth guard at the time of his death. I doubt whether he would have his mouth guard if he was participating in sexual activity. The body was also found with cloths on I believe- Now you could say that the defendants put the mouth guard and cloths back in and on respectively, but that isn’t good for their innocence either.
Even if he knew he was going to be electro-shocked?
Using a tens unit is nothing at all like “electro-shock” (if you are thinking of the torture/pseudo-therapy devices). You certainly don’t need a teeth grinding guard to use one, even using the highest settings. It’s the same feeling you get when you “shock” yourself by accidentally touch a plug prong as you plug it into the electrical outlet. At the highest settings, it can be “painful”, but it wouldn’t cause you to bite down involuntarily. Nor can these devices be used as an actual electroejaculator (and I believe the company that manufactured the found device attested to this). They just don’t have the power necessary to do it. If you are *extremely* well motivated, you might be able to use one as stimulation to have an orgasm, but it’s no simple task (and I am 100% sure it could not happen “involuntarily”). You’d need an actual electroejaculator device (they make them, for example, for rams, e.g., the Bailey Ejaculator), but I don’t believe any such device was found–just the tens unit, and the police speculated inaccurately that this could be used to involuntarily cause ejaculation.
More on the night guard, I’d be pretty surprised if any of the roommates even knew he used one (does anyone here have friends who volunteer that they use one? or have one on them?), so I doubt they put it in for him. I suspect that he put it in himself as he was getting ready for bed.
Again, for thousandth time, Robert was not on the DL. I know too many gay friends (including my partner) who knew him well enough to know this was not the case. He was the victim here. And most assuredly, if he had been on the DL, none of the 3 roommates are stupid enough to go through this trial, spending millions of dollars, and possibly go to jail, just so society doesn’t find out their friend was on the DL. It amazes me that no one can believe a straight guy could have gay friends and even be willing to sleep over night in their house, without thinking he had to be bicurious or something. Now *that’s* homophobia rearing its ugly head. My partner and I are gay, and we’ve had plenty of straight men stay at our house, and, surprisingly, neither we nor they ever gave it a passing thought. And I don’t think we’re the exception.
Wufila-
A very interesting post. Thank-you.
My ignorance about electrostim machines is encyclopedic. I gather, from your description, that the device found in the guest bedroom wouldn’t be–ahem–fun unless one were into BDSM?
An electrostim machine is a helluva thing to proudly display in one’s guest bedroom. So, maybe it was brought in for a special occasion, and forgotten in all the subsequent excitement.
But why would it be brought in? If the recipient had to be a) conscious; and b) someone for whom alligator clips seem erotic, what exactly was the point? Maybe it was just a prop?
The biteguard evidence is ambigious. Mr. Wone’s pocket litter (wallets, blackberry, etc.) was neatly laid out on the dresser, including a plastic case for the biteguard. OTOH, the clothes were reported lying on the floor, contrary to Mr. Wone’s custom of folding his clothes and putting them in a pillowcase provided for the purpse. The biteguard and the pocket litter make it appear as if he was just about to go to bed; the clothes do not.
Possibly whatever it was that happened began just as he was about to undress; possibly it happened earlier, and both the placement of the biteguard and the arrangement of the pocket litter were staged.
I agree that there is no evidence whatsoever that Mr. Wone was on the DL. But there is a sense in which the issue is irrelevant. Nothing that Mr. Wone could possibly have done justified someone stabbing him in the heart.
Even if it were somehow true that Mr. Wone were on the DL, his death would still be premeditated murder, attempts to alter the crime scene would still be tampering, and deceiving the police about the circumstances of his death would still be obstruction of justice.
I recall someone in the course of the trial posting that he had also worn a similar mouth guard. He said that he did not find it plausible that the defendents had re-inserted the mouth guard into an unconscious Robert because they were difficult to insert, and in particular required active movement of the jaw to insert properly.
That was me – it’s not as much difficult as that it goes in by feel, and you bite down gently on it to click it into place. An old worn out one that no longer fits tightly not only doesn’t work effectively but poses a serious choking risk. And I can’t imagine having sex with it in. Whoever mentioned the idea of trolls suggesting a fetish above made me laugh so hard I almost spat mine out, though!
If the case was on the bedside stand that clinches it for me – Robert put it in himself. Keeping the case right there so you can put it away as soon as you wake up is a sure-enough wearer’s habit. When it’s in, it garbles speech but doesn’t reduce volume.
Thanks for noticing my comment and responding!–Just to clarify–how unlikely is it that if Robert were unconscious (but, say, had set his case nearby) that anyone else would be able to insert it properly? –If they indeed knew what it was?
I think it would be fairly easy for someone to figure out what it was if they were going through Robert’s bag. Also, you’re assuming it was inserted “properly” when the ME found it, which we really don’t know for sure. I confess that I’m surprised that neither the EMTs nor the ER staff removed it–I would’ve assumed it would make it harder to intubate Robert.
And the missing knife, sheet, camera, blood clothes etc.
I’ve wondered where they would have disposed of items that needed to be disposed of. In the dumpster down the alley?
I think they went for a ride down to the Chesapeake. With whom, I can’t say. Think, yes. Say, no.
Believe what you will, but there’s never been a scintilla of evidence that Robert was gay, nor more specifically any suggestion of a gay relationship in e-mails between Joe and Robert.
Michael did not burgle the house, Collins did with a key he got from Michael. And Collins would be on anyone’s top 10 suspect list.
“And Collins would be on anyone’s top 10 suspect list.”
Except, apparently, the entire defense team’s.
I agree, the defense must prove who the murderer is.
I don’t agree with that as a legal matter or like it, but as a practical matter for them to avoid conviction they must.
“I agree, the defense must prove who the murderer is.”
And yet they didn’t even try. Why do you think that is?
If the $2.5 or $3 million got the mediocre 3 day defense that was put on, it may have been a matter of money. I suspect this is what the quick conference between Grimm and Dr. Ward at the end was about too.
Actually in the Chandra Levy case even when presented with clear evidence of the real killer this squad initially refused to back down.
So you think that the defense spent 2-3 million dollars, including $10,000 on a ridiculous witness like Dr. Henry Lee, and then they ran out of money, so they didn’t bother to call Phelps Collins to the stand?
They already had Louis Hinton on the stand. He had a history of domestic violence, he had access to the keys to the house, and he subsequently filed a false police report against Michael Price. He was also clearly ready to invoke his 5th Amendment rights. Why not try to pin it on him?
$10K was a pittance in this case. The legal bills are the huge amount. And Lee, with whatever ridiculous persona, is an acknowledged expert who said 70% of his clients are prosecutors.
But it was M. Price D. Ward was afraid of when he called S. Hixson to come with him to the house because he was afraid of entering alone. Why was he afraid? What would it be about JP’s brother that would cause DW to be That afraid?
I’ve heard the argument that it was because of his drug use,m but that level of fear, calling JP, etc., getting someone to come over so you can go into your own house–suggests something more.
It was a Wednesday, not Thursday, night, Turtle dearest. And, would a loyal brother/client with a rap sheet rob the place two months later? Of course, he would!
Not all men are gay, and well less than half have ever engaged in any kind of gay sex; when I learned that sad fact early on, it made me question the Creator’s design skills. Nevertheless, the fact that Robert was “straight” in the most boring and conventional sense should not be a surprise, after all the speculation and scrutiny of the last four years. And, unfortunately, challenging that very “straightness” may have been a turn-on to the sexually-challenged Culuket, who was running out of thrills to keep his mistress in DC.
Nobody would still be covering for Robert. NO ONE. Nobody’s that good of a friend.
As for Michael, you don’t know too many tina freaks, do you? Not to mention he had his dear friend the cat torturer hit the house.
Some of these scenarios people are dreaming up are as crazy as the ninja assassin intruder theory.
Based on the comments above, here’s what it appears you are proposing:
Joe is beside himself because Dylan has grown bored with him. So Joe schemes to invite his Asian friend over (not sure how you’ve determined that Joe has a secret Asian fetish), rape him, and kill him to “spice up” the relationship. Victor ruins the scene by coming home early (or, alternatively, knew all about it as evidenced by his highly unusual behavior of failing to use his cell phone to call home while idly watching his luggage spin around the carousel at the airport). Hell, why not throw the Sarah Morgan in jail too for lying when she said the relationship between the three men was strong when obviously she knew it wasn’t. And isn’t the timing of her little sleep over just a little “too convenient” really? Certainly she was in on the whole murder plot. Case closed.
In fairness to the “crazy” theories, the entire situation is pretty bizarre to begin with. Everyone agrees that Robert Wone was a married man who was stabbed to death in the home of a gay couple and their (or rather Joe’s) BDSM mistress. That’s well into crazyland already.
If Bill Orange is saying that all theories have aspects of craziness to them, I agree. Theories fall into two classes as to craziness. First, there are theories that involve the assumption of some degree of craziness by the murderer and possibly by other persons. Second, there are theories that require that a third party be crazy to believe them. The Chinese ninja theory falls into the second class. Rational persons can dismiss such theories. This means that all of the remaining theories involve some sort of crazy behavior at least by the murderer and possibly by other persons.
The entire situation is bizarre to begin with. Some theories require that one be crazy to believe them, such as the Chinese ninja. Other theories only involve the assumption that at least one person was engaged in crazy behavior.
Since there is no rational explanation, at least one person acted completely irrationally and engaged in crazy behavior. Tragically, it resulted in the death of Robert Wone.
People use date rape drugs to have sex with unwilling participants all the time. I really don’t think that is so crazy to believe. It’s starts to get crazy when you think you’ve accidentally killed that person which is at least manslaughter. That seems like a pretty strong motivator to make it look like someone else did it.
Granted this is an improbable story, but the other potential narrative — fence scaling intruder, weaponless to begin with, but fortuitously wearing gloves in August (no prints on the murder weapon) finds a fortuitously open back door, enters, picks up a knife in the kitchen, but doesn’t take anything of value, goes to a random room at the other end of the house, and while the housemate– all can hear Robert shower, and can hear the chimes– hear nothing of the intruder entering or leaving. The intruder does his dirty work while Robert is TOTALLY defenseless and doesn’t struggle or move, then the intruder runs out of the back of the house, again taking nothing including the murder weapon. Then 20 minutes after a scream is heard by a neighbor, places a 911 call wherein Victor “the intruder has one of our knives” with no way to know that, and that when the EMTs arrive the men are emotionless, doing NOTHING to try to save their friend. That my friend an even more crazy scenario for the innocence of the accused.
meant to say “Then 20 minutes after a scream is heard by a neighbor, Victor places a 911 call wherein Victor says “the intruder has one of our knives” with no way to know that…
Thank you, Mark M. Agree entirely.
If I’m not mistaken, Joe previously attempted to purchase an Asian male dancer with drugs as the payment for an encounter with himself and Dylan.
That was a rumor that was posted on here and never proven. For what it’s worth, I believe it, but unless the dancer comes forward, it’s just a rumor.
Which is as likely as Joe confessing to murder.
There are two types of crazy theories. There are theories that only a crazy person would find credible, such as the Chinese ninja theory. There are also theories that merely imply craziness on the part of at least one person. A rational person can rationally consider theories that imply that at least one person was crazy.
Editors: The title of this section is incorrect. It reads: “Swann Streets’ Simmering Cauldron”. There is only one Swann Street, so that it should read: “Swann Street’s Simmering Cauldron”.
I have been following this website since shortly before the start of the trial. I echo the praise for and thanks to the editors for creating an information site and the forum which has been informative and thought provoking.
I’ve not noticed this other case mentioned here, but I have been reminded of the Jeffrey McDonald case. It was the subject of the book, Fatal Vision. Dr. McDonald was eventually convicted of the murders of his wive and two children.
Similarities: McDonald’s “itruders did this” story; no evidence of intruders; lengthy time between the crime and indictment; the indictment in part of result of a handful of people who felt that justice had not been done; a defense focus on shifting the blame to “bad or inept” investigation; and, finally, an intelligent, professional who seemed to have no motive for the crime.
“…Simmering Cauldron” reveals some of the behind the facade information that may have contributed to the flashpoint that led to Robert Wone’s death. There were also tensions and infidelities that simmered behind the perfect marriage facade in the McDonald case. And like this case, there was the possibility (no evidence) that drug intake may have ignited the built-up rage in the murderer.
As various site participants have remarked: The motive may not be obvious to us but that doesn’t mean there wasn’t one.
I would also like to thank the editors. If my only criticism of the editors was about punctuation, it means that I appreciate what they have done.
The complete turn from defendants-as-alley cats to defendants as committed “family” like Swans mated for life is dizzying. For weeks I’ve read that the defendants’ only devotion was to their own little men and now I’m told they were so fatally attracted to each other they would give up their own lives rather than flip on any one of them for immunity.
I suspect, not just from Hixson’s testimony, that if Ward were gone his replacement would have been found in a matter of weeks at most. If he only charged $90/hr. he couldn’t be that magnetic or was just giving legit massage. And Ward seems to already have been on the way out. Price and Z do have a non-traditional family sharing children and finances, not a cult type family.
The theory might fly better in the case of closeted homosexuals or homosexuals in a small town or rural area with fewer options. Not with sexually active homosexuals living in the middle of Boy’s Town DC. Also I don’t presume Victor was just a “wife” or “mother”. He’s attractive and personable and I’m think probably as sexually active, especially on his trips, as the homebodies.
So, Tasso, since the trouple was never a trouple or a Manson family — they were much more sparkly than alley cats, then their baffling silence within the context of a huge circumstantial argument against them means that they are all complicit in some way in the cover-up and murder: guilty, guilty, guilty!
P.S. Victor remains an attractive, personable gentleman who would still make a great catch, if he did not face the possibility of jail time: every man wants a man just like dear old Mom! Nevertheless, I do not see Victor tricking on business trips, even now — it’s just not congruous with his home-building, solid style.
Q: What Does a Gay Man Want Most?
A: What you Tell Him He Can’t Have
Each member of the trouple was pursuing something the other members weren’t willing/able to give. It’s a classic love triangle. The cards/emails show a 3-way relationship that had a lot of tension under the surface.
Victor wanted a stable family and was willing to put up with his husband’s out sized and kinky sexual desires, to the point of a live in lover. I keep thinking of Victor as saying to himself “Joe will settle down…eventually.”
Dylan wants to replace Victor, but Joe was only interested in cheap thrills. He didn’t need another husband.
Joe wants to have it all, but is worried that Dylan is getting fed up being treated like a plaything. The more Dylan pulls away, the more Joe wants him.
After reading this blog for several months, I have come to the firm belief that Dylan is the killer. Short of actually killing Joe, it was the ultimate punishment and the ultimate in control. Dylan did to Robert what he wanted to do to Joe. He took Joe’s life/career away. It’s the classic “if I can’t have you nobody can” kind of routine. Between the drugs and serious mind games going on, the emotions simply ran too high. As a asde, I have to say that the fact that Robert was stabbed in the heart and Dylan’s father is a cardiologist is just too much of a coincidence.
It’s quite possible that Dylan wasn’t really into the BDSM stuff as much as he was into Joe, and did it simply to please Joe. Dylan seems one of those gay men craving attention, and willing to try anything to get it. Having done everything from fisting to watersports to e-stim, it may have simply been too much to be the other man, and engage in a lot of activities solely to please a man that in so many ways made it clear that Dylan would never be #1 in his life.
As a lawyer, Joe knew that his life would be a shambles if it came out that his live-in Dom killed another lawyer, and thinking on his feet created the intruder story. It all happened so fast, that poor Victor just went along with it without even realizing that he was committing a serious crime.
At the same time, in terms of obstruction, it seems to me that out of the three, the evidence is the least clear on Dylan. With Victor you have the 911 call, and Joe is the one with the body.
Would it not be ironic if Dylan was the killer and he walked on the obstruction charge?
But I’ll go out on a limb and say the no-nonsense judge will convict all three of them. She has already said that she wasn’t even close to buying the intruder story, and was just looking for the solid evidence of the crimes charged. In 48 hours I think she’ll announce that she found it.
I agree with you on just about all of your points, but I’m still not sure Dylan really wanted to “replace” Victor, despite what he said to Sarah Morgan. I think that Dylan was getting bored not so much because he was the “other woman”, but rather because it’s just in his nature to get bored with things and move on to something new.
Of course, he may have been irritated that he couldn’t break up Joe and Victor, even if he didn’t want to me the new Mrs. Price. I confess that I’m more than a little surprised that he wasn’t successful. After all, he didn’t just get his foot in the door; he managed to get a room in the house.
Almost every mistress wants to replace the wife (or person in the #1 spot, in this case, Victor). Even if they don’t really want the married man long term, they usually have the need to “win” the heart of the married man.
Mike, really appreciate your post. After following this blog for almost 2 years I have my theories. Dylan, I believe is guilty of murder and Joe followed suit, because he wanted to be with Dylan. Victor, my oh my, give it up. The triangle relationship is an exercise in unrequitted love. Did Dylan really go to any lengths to keep Joe by getting involved in a BDSM relationship? Maybe, we will ever know. But, if one decides to tell the truth, look for a book..
Mike, I think you may be right. Dylan is only interested in Dylan. If he wasn’t involved, he would have walked away from all of this already. The judge even alluded to the possibility of Dylan being the killer in her questioning during closing arguments.
This scenario would explain alot, especially Needham Ward’s fondness towards Joe…. for trying to save his son’s ass.
Very good point about Dylan bailing if there were any way he could. Joe is the center. Victor isn’t extricating himself from this situation because he won’t. Dylan isn’t because he can’t.
Alright…after reading the very tightly-drafted Government Opposition I am back to my original (and seemingly most agreed upon) theory. Joe plans the drugging and hanky panky games with Robert b/c he thinks it’ll be different and exciting for Dylan. Dylan is aware of the plan. Victor is not. Something goes wrong and Joe decides on the stabbing/intruder theory to cover up. Dylan assists. (Maybe Michael is there too to inject more drugs and then ends up taking off with evidence). Victor is awakened and comes downstairs to find the body and cleanup in progress. He helps.
So, while I think Joe is the clear ringleader, my brief change of heart as to Dylan’s complicity is gone. But, I don’t think Dylan would have ever proceeded with killing Robert without Joe masterminding the idea. The fact that he probably thought it was okay to drug someone and take actions against his will is a whole ‘nother story.
As to the discussion of the Jeffrey MacDonald case, crime history is filled with “intruders” who murder and mysteriously disappear. In most instances the probable murderer fakes an injury to themselves to make their innocence more believable. I’m surprised Joe didn’t go that route and stab himself or have Dylan do the honors.
I wish there were more emails/cards. I’m so curious to observe more of the family dynamic. I do agree that it doesn’t seem right that Joe and Dylan would be describing a third partner as “intimidating”. It just has to be referring to something else!
Finally, I believe Dylan would have been out of there long ago if it weren’t for this situation. Maybe as a perpetual student dilettante learning about being a Dom was fun for a while but I’m guessing he was over it, and over Joe. Unfortunately for Dylan (and especially for Robert), the decision of a split second inextricably linked him with Joe.
This is plausible, but you need a more detailed explanation of what “went wrong.” Remember, Robert was alive at the time of the stabbing. Was stabbing part of the original plan? Or did they mistakenly believe Robert had died, and then staged the stabbing (which, ironically, was the thing that actually killed him)?
Perhaps there needs to be a bit more detailed, such as the missing blood which I thnk the defendants drained. But I like CuriousinVA’s scenario because of the efficiency of details. I think a lot of scenarios offered in this blog provide more details than supported by evidence, and more explanation of motives than necessary.
Thanks. I don’t think they set out to stab him. I believe either they mistakenly thought he’d OD’d and were attempting to cover it up OR although still paralyzed by the drugs Robert somehow exhibited awareness of what was happening. It then became clear to Joe that the fantasy of doing dirty things to Robert and him never remembering was just that – a fantasy. He had to make sure Robert could never tell.
Agree. And the “messiest” part of it took place in the shower or a playmat (as they’re called here).
Oh also, I don’t think they drained any blood. I think poor Robert bled out on a playmat or in the tub and they got rid of/cleaned the evidence.
Why were the stab wounds so precise and surgical? If the stabbing was done simply for the purpose of staging a killing by an “intruder,” why bother with such precision?
…and why were there puncture marks found that were administered pre-death?
More likely to keep him knocked out than drain his blood.
Because if you want to kill someone relatively quickly, where else do you stab them?
IMHO, the precision is simply an artifact of Mr. Wone being incapacitated and the killer being able to deliver his blows at leisure.
That said, the thought does occur that maybe somebody with a lot of experience meat cutting–a cook, perhaps–would be more likely to subconsciously judge the force required and produce a cleaner, more “surgical” wound than an amateur.
I agree with the above scenario. BadShoes, I was struck by your suggestion that an experienced cook would be likely to deliver cleaner blows. And if indeed they thought Robert had OD’d–which I think the most likely, if only because the alternative seems so much darker, and I’m not sure they were capable of that–I can only wonder, to the degree that Dylan can feel anything, how appalled he, as well as Joe, must have felt when the autopsy report came out. Assuming he was probably acting in accord with Joe’s wishes, I can see where it would tighten the bond between the two of them. And I wonder if Dylan’s father, given his expertise, has thought about that, and appreciates Joe for not giving away his son (not that Joe would have much to gain).
To the general scenario developed above I would only add that I think the likelihood of a few changes in plans helps explain the bizarre staging of the scene. As previously discussed, Plan A involved stabbing Robert to make it appear he was a victim of a violent crime and dumping the body. I think Victor’s and Joe’s references to ‘a lot of blood’ was probably genuine, but I believe some degree of cleaning, remaking the bed, etc. must have taken place already, because it certainly would have made more sense to leave much of the mess for the ‘intruder’ scenario, which became Plan B only after Victor screamed. Expecting the police to arrive imminently, they frenziedly finished cleaning, attempted to stage some kind of ‘intruder’ scene, and developed their ‘story’ under Joe’s direction. Hence the delay in calling 911, which became Plan C when they finally realized the police weren’t coming. Coming up with 3 different plans in less than an hour added to the state of drug-addled mental exhaustion they appeared to be in when the police showed up.
Perhaps somebody has already mentioned the Valerie Percy murder of September, 1966, but if not, check it out. The murderer is still being sought.
There are some glaring differences. Ms. Percy was sleeping in her own home and her own bed. She seems to have been targeted specifically, as evidenced by the brutality of the murder (i.e., it seemed “personal”). Very few people knew that Robert would be in that room, that night, among them his wife and the roommates. There was also ample evidence of an intruder (this was before most Americans knew about Ninjas, I guess), having been caught literally red-handed by Mrs. Percy. There was also ample evidence of the break-in and hand and fingerprints from the murderer. In addition, Valerie was covered in blood and had obviously fought back, as there were defensive wounds.
Even though this case is still unsolved, it’s the perfect example of why many of us believe Robert was *not* killed by an intruder. One would expect all of the above (or at least *some* of the above) to be true in a murder case involving an intruder (i.e., evidence of the intruder, evidence of an intrusion, a degree of blood, defensive wounds, noise made by the intruder, etc.). The only similarities to the Robert Wone case is that there was a murder and it is (thus far) unsolved. But it is a perfect example of why the intruder theory is ludicrous in this case.
For info on the totally unrelated Valerie Percy murder, that does involve a completely related effort by posters to discuss & solve it,as those do here: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-12874.html
What no one mentions is that there have been over 300, repeat 300, UNSOLVED murders in DC since this murder, none of whom were friends with Attorney General Holder.
With the largest police force per capita in the US, plus the FBI HQ, the Secret Service, Park Police and United States Attorney’s Office as prosecutors all earning some of the highest salaries and presumably getting the best of the best, reading through the official MPD list is bone chilling:
http://mpdc.dc.gov/mpdc/cwp/view,a,1243,q,541992,mpdcNav_GID,1533.asp
Tasso, this one is officially “unsolved” every bit as much as the others. Your point?
All unsolved murders are tragic, but I assume that the rate is as high in most cities as in DC. Granted, my experience with DC police was a while ago, but I found them more responsive and more courteous to deal with than the LA police, for example.
LA has a population of 10 million, DC is a small burg of 500,000.
I’m not talking raw numbers – what is the % differential if your claim is that DC has more unsolved murders than most?
We only have about 200 murders per year and with 100 unsolved ones per year the % has to be about 50%. That’s an intolerable percentage for any place.
And my point is how many years and how much money is spent on the average unsolved murder in DC compared to how much has been invested in this one case. What is the difference? It’s telling.
Without comparative numbers it’s sort of meaningless. The percentage differential I was referring to is whether there are more unsolved murders in DC than in other cities.
For instance, I did a web search and found that the “solved” murder rate is 21% in Detroit, 22% in New Orleans, and 35% in Chicago. Not saying it’s not a problem, but it’s not just a DC issue.
tasso and Bea, your discussion led me to research unsolved murders here in California and to discover that we have a similar situation as in DC. A report called “The Silent Crisis in California: Unsolved Murders” (a google search on this will get you to the website) states that in California there have been 12,490 unsolved homicides between 1999 and 2008; over 10,000 murderers running loose while the families of those murdered have not obtained justice. While the national rate of unsolved murders is 37%, California’s is 46.0%, with (for example) San Francisco’s at 59.7% and LA’s at 54.0%. The report’s writers focus on the $137 million used annually to fund the death penalty system, which monies they say could be better spent on things such as hiring more homicide detectives and improving inadequate forensic resources, thereby moving towards “achiev[ing] justice for all crime victims, not just symbolism for a few.” I could not read this report without thinking of the parallels to Robert’s case and to some of the points tasso has been making here about unequal justice in DC.
Since starting to read about Robert’s case here I have wondered what sorts of repercussions it’s had within the DC MPD–e.g. whether they’re doing a better job of testing for blood evidence. (That misstep was appalling.) Perhaps it’s here and I just haven’t come across it yet. Otherwise, while the editors more than have their hands full covering the trial, it would be a great service if somewhere down the road they could look into that. Whatever the outcome for this case, it would be a fitting tribute for Robert if his death could lead to more justice for others.
Remember the Canadian Ken and Barbie case where Karla Homolka wants to give her fiance a special gift which was her virgen teenage younger sister. From what I read they wanted to seal their bond and came up with a scheme to drug the girl but the girl choked on her own vomit and died
As silly as I thought the talk about why Joe was wearing sunglasses one afternoon leaving court, I just watched the video from “Detectives Focus On Sex As Motive In Wone Murder” (Press) and had to ask, “Why did Joe have an umbrella up on a bright, sunny day?” (other than to tilt it at the camera’s).
I’m sorry, but why would such an “innocent” person feel the need to hide behind an umbrella.
Coward.
“”The toxicology lab searched for alcohol, cocaine, barbiturates, opiates and amphetamines. It looked for the date-rape drug gamma-hydroxybutyrate, or GHB. It checked for benzodiazepines, a class of sedatives that includes at least three other date-rape drugs. It looked for phencyclidine, or PCP, a hallucinogen, and depending on how the PCP screening was done, the test also might have found any traces of ketamine, another common date-rape drug.””
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/06/01/AR2009060103472_5.html?sid=ST2009053102566
In Govt’s opposition, D. Ward says “I didn’t see them do any life-saving” about JP and VZ re R. Wone. Odd, isn’t it? It’s just so odd too that a guy is murdered, cops are there and he goes back into his room.