Ward’s Transcript: Good Cop, Bad Cop…and Homophobe Cop
Q: I don’t believe we’re getting the truth here.
A: Everyone keeps telling me that.
We’ve read transcripts of Joe Price and Victor Zaborsky’s ‘voluntary’ statements to the MPD the night of Robert Wone’s murder. Now we add 69 more pages to the record with Dylan Ward’s interview with, variously, Sgt. Daniel Wagner, and Detectives Norris, Waid, and at the end, Kasul.
More than the other statements, this one is not pretty. More so than Price and Zaborsky’s statements, this one is more than confrontational. We don’t do this for a living, but this transcript reads ugly. In part, and we wish this were otherwise, but it’s hard to read this transcript as, at least in part, a homophobic beat-down.
Page 2, line 6 – not even one minute into Dylan’s interview, and bad cop says, referring to Robert:
Q: This guy’s perfectly straight and he’s going to leave his wife for the night and come over to you all’s house?
A: Yeah, because —
Q: Then he’s not perfectly straight. That’s not something a straight guy would do.
A straight guy staying at a gay friend’s house? Memo to MPD: Welcome to 2006.
The transcript, until the arrival of Det. Kasul, is largely a document of homophobic browbeating. What may seem offensive here is that this goes beyond ‘good cop/bad cop’ set piece: it is an exercise in not listening to the suspect and instead imposing one’s own agenda from the start.
Imagine what could have been learned if the MPD were actually listening to Ward, and not trying to get him to confess to the crime which the police themselves were rather confused about. The agenda of the cops: Joe was interested in Robert (and/or vice versa), Joe and/or Victor killed him, and Dylan is covering up.
Perhaps this is why the MPD was not able to get the information they needed to solve this case: Sgt. Wagner and Det. Norris seem particularly focused on proving that Robert was gay…and/or that Joe was erotically fixated on Robert.
And they do this on the basis of what? Answer: Joe was wearing underwear.
The purpose for the government’s release of this document was to show that Ward was neither held or interrogated against his will. Is that proven here?
More, and the transcript after the jump.
First, we will try to ignore the consistent poor language by MPD officers employed throughout. Guys: perhaps this works with crack sellers, but really not so much with NW guppies. Sayin’…
At several points the MPD questioners try to pin Ward in to frankly preposterous statements. Example: page 22, line 17:
“You know, I’m just going to throw this out at you, and I’m not accusing you of anything, okay? You know that if one of you all did do it, eventually some (indiscernible) and somebody going to start feeling (indiscernible) the one thing that I don’t want to see happen — and if one of you all did do it, and say you didn’t do it, the one thing that I don’t want to happen is see you go down to accessory to murder because you want to try to protect your friend. “
And that’s not an accusation? Even for bad cop routine, this is lame.
Look, Ward had plenty of odd comments – that astute listeners would have pursued. Page 17, line 10:
Q: You saw the door unlocked, or did you see — when you (indiscernible) unlocked or was is it open?
A: I couldn’t tell if it was open or not. It was unlocked, because the latch, if it’s vertical, means that the dead bolt is unlocked, and it’s only a dead bolt there.
Given his other assertions that he hadn’t looked downstairs, and the distance from the stairs to the back door…is it not highly questionable that anyone in their right mind – let alone, having found a friend murdered in their house – could note such a small detail from so far away?
Even with this, and other curiosities, throughout Dylan seems fair in his recollections. His language reads clear, and there’s a sense of – pardon – honest recollection of the confused events of that night.
The MPD on the other hand…
“Q: I just find it odd for Robert all of a sudden — just comes over there and spend the night…”
(He didn’t. If you listened to the Victor and Joe you would know it was planned in advance.) Then there’s the “robe” discussion, starting on page 23, line 18:
Q: So does Joe normally walk around the house without his bathrobe?
A. He doesn’t normally walk around the house in his underwear, no.
Q. So why is he walking around in his underwear?
A: I assume because if he’s asleep, and he sleeps in his underwear then when it all happened, he rushed downstairs and he just never got his robe on.
Q: Why not take time just to put your robe on? Because you don’t know what’s going on….
This goes on. In short: pre-occupation with Joe as murderer.
There’s much more in this document. But what’s frustrating above and beyond all the details is the ham-handed approach taken by the MPD.
The details that might have been learned that night may have changed this case had the inquisitors taken a more thoughtful approach.
-posted by Doug
This transcript did not strike me as more homophobic than Joe’s (“you’re coming to Jesus”), but maybe that’s just my hetero blinders. I get the sense that Dylan’s interview was conducted last and that frustration had built up on the part of the detectives. They may also have focused on Dylan as a weak link – the third wheel with the separate bedroom closest to the crime scene – and decided to turn the screws a little harder with him.
After reading the all three transcripts, I can better understand how the police were flummoxed. The stories are implausible, yet corroborate each other in key aspects, while the crime scene evidence tells an entirely different story.
My notes: Dylan doesn’t mention the grill or burnt steaks, says he left Joe with Robert in the bathroom and doesn’t deny the possibility of a relationship between them as vehemently as the others, just that he had no idea and would be shocked if so. He also assumes the noise is from Joe and Vic fighting!
And what about Robert being over for breakfast in the past? Odd new detail that. If true, was Victor around on those occasions? Or travelling? It sometimes feels as though Dylan does not want to rat Joe out but is dropping hints to steer the police in that direction – and the detectives do not follow-up. I wonder if the reference to talking about Lisa is one such hint. I think I think Lisa knows the full Joe/Robert history/dynamic, whatever it was, and that’s part of why she was at VCB for Joe and awkwardly name dropped Joe in her eulogy.
Overall, Dylan’s statement is much less detailed than the other two. Was he not briefed as thoroughly on “the story?” Or could he not memorize it all? Not trusted with it all? Is that why Joe was worried? The other two try to explain everything while Dylan sticks closer to “I don’t know nothin'”. Is he credible? Or setting himself up for his Lunesta defense? Are they all completely lying?
I’ve always thought the circumstantial evidence pointed to Dylan (see “Countdown”), but if running at the mouth is any indication, Joe seems to have been the most nervous and misspeaks most often as pointed out by posters. And Dylan did agree to a lie detector test and actually take it (unlike Joe).
So, the transcripts seem to point to Joe, and the circumstantial evidence to Dylan with Victor the only one with an ascertainable motive (jealous snit) — there may have been sexual interest on the part of Joe and/or Dylan but you need an intervening event of which we can only speculate to progress to a stabbing.
And then there’s Michael waiting in the wings as a wild card.
I don’t see this as homophobic either. Seems to me, the detectives are just trying to hammer down any potential relationships between Robert and the housemates. I think the police would be amiss if they didn’t question the personal dynamics of the individuals involved.
Does it strike anyone else as strange that not one of the three mentions that they hosted Robert’s 30th birthday party?
And Dylan was clearly trying to downplay his relationship with Robert at one point in the interview. He did come back to the “2-3 times a year” line later.
Victor seems to do the same. It’s puzzling isn’t it? Wouldn’t people who were close and on good terms with Robert and his wife be less likely to murder him? Why default to “he was Joe’s friend” and pretend they didn’t know him that well?
Were they afraid that revealing a closer friendship would somehow lead to the truth of what happened? Are they overcompensating in their explanations here as well as with the bug, grill, shower and watered plants?
1. What was Joe doing that prevented him from hearing the doorbell, even though he was expecting Robert? Mysterious absence of information from all 3 about this little detail, and sadly, no follow-up by the detectives. (Victor sort of implies that Joe was watching Project Runway with him, but isn’t especially clear about this.)
2. In Victor’s second transcript, he says that he went downstairs to let in the EMTs, and Dylan came partway down the stairs and asked if the back door was open. Victor says that he (Victor) looked over at the back door and saw that the deadbolt latch was “vertical.” Both Dylan and Victor refer to the latch being “vertical,” but have different stories about how they came to discover that fact. Either they don’t remember clearly (which is possible — things were moving fast at this point) or this is another detail that was part of the story, but not fully thought out in advance.
Jesus, what kind of question is, “Did you see Joe at all when you were asleep?” Are they asking if he dreamed about Joe? So much missed opportunity here, such bungling questioning.
Nobody knows nothing but everybody knows there was a frickin’ spider on the light in the backyard.
Best. comment. ever.
HaHa! True!
The spider did it.
I don’t think these questions were “homophobic.” There is a potential kinky-sex-crime element to this case and the detectives were surely correct to pursue this angle with aggressive questioning. It would be different if a person were killed during a bank robbery and the detectives starting asking questions about the sex lives of the victim and bank robber . But this is a very different scenario, and the facts here make those questions highly relevant.
I’ll go even further. It IS strange that Joe and Robert were good friends. By most accounts Robert was a straight-laced, moderate family man. In contrast, Joe apparently was an obnoxious, S&M, porn-loving maniac. Why would they be friends? Can you imagine a conversation:
Joe: Any plans this weekend, Robert?
Robert: Oh, the usual. My wife and I are going to do some gardening in the yard and then maybe go out to dinner. How about you, Joe?
Joe: Oh, the usual. I’m going to snarf down some ecstacy, hit a few gay clubs, maybe snort some lines of coke off the rock-hard abs of one of the dancers, and then come home and have a three-way with my two housemates.
As one of the detective said, “The whole thing ain’t make no sense.”
I’d say Robert was straight by all accounts, not most, including the accounts of the trouple.
Remember Joe’s alt tastes were unknown to many people close to him, straight or gay, probably including Robert (possibly excepting the IT department at Arent Fox). This didn’t become common knowledge until the release of the affidavit — which caused some supporters to distance themselves at that point.
The real question is why someone with Joe’s exotic interests would continue a friendship with a boring “straight-laced, moderate” like Robert, not vice-versa.
Hoya: I agree vice-versa or either way. My point is that the descriptions I’ve read of Joe and Robert make it seem to me unlikely that they would be/remain good friends.
I don’t know. My lifestyle and sexual experiences have differed markedly from that of my straight friends from college and we are still all good friends any years later. And this includes straight guys. I tend to think I have had a little more fun than they have but whatever.
What I value is their friendship and vice versa. I think the cops here just got hung up on something, though I suppose they had to explore the possibilities. It just might have helped if they were more open minded in thinking about this case and the relationships among the people involved. It could have turned up better avenues for investigation.
I think it is totally possible for Joe and Robert to have remained friends since college. They were both up and coming attorneys who could possibly scratch each other’s backs, so to speak, if the need arose. Plus I think Joe’s sex life was not something he ‘shared’ with people even though he was openly gay. Straight people don’t usually share what goes on in their bedrooms with their attorney co-workers either…I said USUALLY. Joe had the hots for Robert from WAY back, but he knew his feeling would NEVER be reciprocated.
Random:
“Can I call my parents?” He was pushing 40 at the time and wants to call Daddy and Mommy?
Oh my God, a (very) casual friend has been stabbed – Joe is staunching the bleeding, Victor is calling 911. I guess I’ll sit down on the sofa.
“I didn’t ever see any life saving attempts.”
He “didn’t get into the room” to see any knife or see what Joe was holding to the wounds but he saw “two spots of blood” and “blood that had dripped under the sheets or something”. When pressed about the blood UNDER THE SHEETS he
retreats to it being “blood around his body.”
This one is the big one for me – “blood under the sheets” is a tell. Blood doesn’t go under a sheet without saturating that sheet – is he saying that they changed the sheets before “placing” Robert’s body in that strange position after he was dead? What could “under the sheets” mean?
Only Joe screwed up that there was a LOT of blood – agree that Joe looks the most guilty from his statement.
Is anyone getting any work done out there?
Bea: From the Price transcript, re: amount of blood he saw on/near Robert. Ward’s comment you pulled out echoes Price’s almost word-for-word:
Price: “I could see there was a lot more blood on the bed in, like two spots. It kind of went under him.”
Ward: “..two spots of blood… blood that had dripped under the sheets or something..”
Emphasis mine.
I wish these docs were text searchable.
And funny that he could see a drop of blood from where he was, but he couldn’t see if there were sheets. And, uh, didn’t he help make up the bed with Victor? Wouldn’t he know if there were sheets?
Sounds like a story which could have been worked out by a lawyer in collaboration with a children’s book author for dissemination by somebody with public relations experience.
What continues to baffle me is the fact that Ward knew that Wone was sleeping over but didn’t tell Zaborsky. It’s odd enough that this was a long-planned sleep over and Zaborsky didn’t know about it way ahead of time, but even odder that Price, Ward, and Zaborsky all had dinner together that very evening and Price still didn’t bother telling Zaborsky that they were having a guest that night (apparently Zaborsky only found out after seeing the others making the bed for Robert).
Since Price and Zaborsky were, in substance, married, I can’t help but think of this in my own context. I am a married male. It just would NEVER happen that I would invite someone to spend the night in my house and not tell my wife about it in advance – especially if the guest was a woman (i.e., the sex that I was oriented to).
From the transcript, it sounds like the only reason Zaborsky ever found out is because he noticed the others making the bed. What if he hadn’t noticed that? Would Price never have mentioned it to him? And if so, why would that be?
I can’t believe for a minute that this was simply a case of “oops, I innocently forgot to tell you we are having someone sleep over tonight.”
A second thing I find odd is that Price gets a call from Wone saying Wone will be over shortly, yet Price doesn’t hang out downstairs to wait for him.
Finally, from Price’s interview transcript, I noticed that on two or three occassion, Price referred to Wone as “it.” Very strange way to refer to a good friend of yours.
Finally, finally, as was mentioned before, it is odd that Price says on multiple occasions in his transcript that we has yelling for an ambulance during Zaborsky’s 911 call, yet the background sounds completely silent during the call.
I get the sense that IF Joe was upstairs with Victor at all it was to make sure he was tucked in for the night and unlikely to come downstairs.
Joe was somewhere, doing something, when Robert rang the doorbell.
Laying out some toys for his guest? Indulging in a quick hit upstairs? Obsessed by the broken shower? Or deeply absorbed by Project Runway?
JAF….I agree….Dylan indicated that there was a length of time between hearing the doorbell and answering it. He dressed and went downstairs realizing that Joe hadn’t gone down yet.
Was Joe, perhaps, arguing with Victor about the lack of being informed about Robert’s visit?
Also, it sounds like Dylan didn’t intend on visiting with Robert. He claims to have gotten ready for bed. He had to “dress” to go answer the door.
JAF: Bingo! I think you’re right – Joe was somewhere else, doing something else. He was not in bed, contrary to Victor’s recollection. Victor was falling asleep, remember, and was semi-conscious of the TV still being on…but he had rolled over and was falling asleep…perfect time for Joe to not be in bed, even thought Victor thought he was…
I still think there is a huge piece that’s missing here…another person…something. Frankly, I, like many of us, had been waiting for Dylan’s transcript to be posted, thinking all along that he was the “most” guilty…and now I’ll bet many of us are surprised/disappointed/flummoxed.
I’m not sure what to think.
I, for one, am flummoxed. I’m agreeing more and more that Joe was somewhere else.
I’m also waiting for the missing penny to drop.
I love going back to read old posts later. Dylan “dresses” to go downstairs to open the door for Robert, but Joe meets the police in his underwear.
Go figure!
as a gay, i think it’s possible that gay guys in a committed yet deteriorating relationship could invite a friend or fuckbuddy over and not tell the other guy.
Yes, I agree with this, too.
However, in this case Robert was known to all – wouldn’t that make a difference. Plus, Dylan had been told way before. In that case he must have been instructed not to tell Victor. I still find this suspect.
Lyn – In regards to Zaborsky’s NOT knowing Robert was going to stay, I immediately start thinking of how he was on a business trip and ended up getting back early. Was he supposed to spend the night out of town? Or, get back so late that the “other” trouple (Joe, Dylan & Robert) – if in fact there’s even a chance Robert was gay or experimenting with the guys – would have been able to mess around and be done before he returned?
It seems like the info was being kept from Victor until the very last minute & that seem odd no matter what state your relationship was in.
Also, if Joe & Dylan had a sexual relationship that consisted of some heavy duty S & M activities, I’m not convinced that they would not have done this together…
I agree that it seems like they tried to keep Zaborsky from knowing. I say “they” because it is obvious that Ward also knew Wone was sleeping over (that is why he was making the bed for him). So Price told Ward but not Zaborsky. Make sense? I don’t think so.
And another oddity: Ward downplays the closeness of his friendship with Wone when talking to police, yet who makes the bed for Wone? None other than Ward. If my housemate’s friend (someone that I wasn’t that close to) was sleeping over I sure as heck wouldn’t be the one making the bed, my housemate would. So that begs the question – why was Ward the one making the bed? Super helpful gesture from a guy who claims he was in a rush to fall fast sleep or some other reason?
He made the bed to make sure the plastic sheets were on it?
Hmmmm,
And at the house on Lee Street in NE that the MPD search in relation to this case one of the items that was found were plastic sheets.
Hmmmmm
David
And is this how the blood got UNDER the (fresh, cloth) sheet on which Robert was placed?
David,
Have you ever heard/read anything indicating what took them to Lee Street?
I wonder if that was Joe’s and Dylan’s playspace. 1509 Swann Street was too crowded and not very well equipped for major BDSM fetish scenes.
Good point about the space needed and/or desired for a BDSM scene. Very interesting.
CD,
Remains a mystery to me as to what brought them there, but, the fact is, they went looking for items, and didn’t find what they were looking for. A failure of imagination on the part of MPD may have caused them to overlook what was there — things such as plastic sheets, and a crack pipe, among other things.
David
Ward admits that they did talk on the sofa about what happened – didn’t Joe deny this? With all the uses of “intruder” and the other problem wording (11:43; car-as-launching-pad) they will have trouble denying that they discussed the matter at length BEFORE calling the cops.
Plus there was the convenient lets-lead-them-to-a-solution mentioning of the car and hopping over the fence. Too uncanning.
Bea, the ‘Plus’ in my comment was a mistake, it was meant to underscore what you said. (English is my second language)
Do we know anything about the lie detector test? Did he pass or fail? It sounds like he actually took it. I just find it so amazing that someone would agree to take a lie detector and expect to beat it. How hard is that to do? I know the results aren’t admissible, but I really want to know what they were!!
My guess is that he failed because the defense filed a motion to exclude it.
Oh — you are probably right. I didn’t realize that.
I noticed they didn’t do the boilerplate “you answered these questions voluntarily, correct?” thing at the end like they did with Joe and Victor.
Also, regards the sex thing, I honestly think we get bogged down here when we don’t realize that MOST sexually adventurous people have the life that is known to their circle of fellow adventurers and the life that’s known to everybody else in their life. I don’t think we do our examinations of this case any favors when we juxtapose it like, “By most accounts Robert was a straight-laced, moderate family man. In contrast, Joe apparently was an obnoxious, S&M, porn-loving maniac.”
I have a partner as well as an ever-so-slightly edgy sex life with people other than he, I am sure to people determined to hold up a 1950s TV family image of “normalcy” it could be portrayed as maniacal and crazy and out there.
I also have a couple of very close straight male friends who have been my friends since 7th grade. We’re regularly in touch, and sometimes when they visit my city, they sleep on my couch. I will say I agree with the editors that the line of questioning from the detective that set that up as an impossible situation, that a gay guy would be in touch with a straight guy he knew from school and a straight guy would “never” sleep over at said gay guy’s house, was indeed coming from a homophobic world view. And led to his missing some possibly fruitful interrogation angles.
“I read for like 5 minutes, then took my sleeping pill and then went to bed” –Dylan Ward
“In each case the consumers had no recollection of the events, which they said had occurred after they took their pills and headed for bed”–FDA report*
A motiveless prescription-triggered stabbing makes more sense than an intruder.
You may thank me now.
*http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/15/business/15drug.ready.html
Once the modern-era sleeping pill was introduced into the narrative, that notion came up. But what doesn’t make sense is why the other two would cover that up instead of saying “Something freaky happened with our housemate.” I don’t get why Joe and Victor would possibly not just tell the truth if that were the case.
Spike, please don’t pour more liquor on the wetbrain.
Isn’t “Easy Off” simply the best oven cleaner?
actually, i prefer to use the “self-cleaner” on my oven, more green.
The patient medication guide (02/2008) for Lunesta lists this FIRST as its most IMPORTANT warning in BOLD type!
“What is the most important information I should know about LUNESTA?
After taking LUNESTA, you may get up out of bed while not being fully awake and do an activity that you do not know you are doing. The next morning, you may not remember that you did anything during the night”
http://www.lunesta.com/Lunesta-Patient-Medication-Guide.pdf
And the winner of this season’s THE BIGGEST LIAR is Joe Price!
Man, those Nuclear Security Summit barricades disappeared almost as quickly as most of the evidence at 1509 Swann Street! I wonder if the same clean-up crew is responsible for both?!
Does Dylan’s success as a story writer make him more inclined to be behind the ‘prepping everyone’ before they called 911?
He seems very certain to stick to his story in this transcript – much different from what I anticipated after having read Joe’s.
My gut reaction would be that the slick lawyer would be more inclined to create a defense narrative than a children’s story writer. And especially a children’s story writer on Lunestra.
Dylan seems much more lucid that Joe. Joe doesn’t even make sense sometimes.
Whether Victor was scheduled to be away that night on business is an important point. Let’s hope the DC police have nailed it down. I don’t see anything in the transcripts to determine whether Victor’s “early” return means a couple hours early or a day early.
Oh CJ, I’m afraid they were just too gobsmacked by the notion of a gay guy and a straight guy keeping in touch and a straight guy sleeping on a guest bed in a house with gay guys to have even thought to ask about Victor’s schedule. Because WHO HAS EVER HEARD OF SUCH A CRAZY THING????
Spike: The great irony that you fail to see is that your unwillingness to pursue certain lines of inquiry that don’t jive with your sensibilities is precisely the same mistake that the DC detectives made. The only difference is that the DC detectives were biased by somewhat hostile views towards gays, while your bias runs in the opposite direction. But in both cases, you are shutting down possibly useful lines of inquiry that might make you uncomfortable.
It is high time to take off the ideological blinkers and look at everything.
CJ, I think Spike is actually telling you that you have a good point and that the Police didn’t think of that because the were too fixed on the stupid notion that a gay guy can’t have straight friends, let alone visit them overnight.
To clear this: I meant ‘straight guy to have gay friends’
Thank you Charl for reading what I wrote and understanding what I meant. The burden of communication is on the communicator, so I am glad it was clear to you.
Just a thought……I wonder if Joe thought Robert might be interested in having sex as, most likely, Robert and Cathy were not able to participate in any major sexual activity, as Cathy had a double hip replacement. Cathy would be out of commission for a while until she healed.
Maybe Joe thought this was his chance.
I am afraid that I wondered about this as well; in Joe’s addled mind this might make sense.
Sucks a lot for Cathy having her medical history trotted out, the validity of her marriage questioned (not by you, but by many people) and her husband’s sexuality speculated about ad nauseum for years. It must really be a lot to bear.
Reading these transcripts has been fascinating and frustrating all at once.
It’s hard to believe that none of the police were able to “crack” the threesome’s stories or bring out inconsistencies. I cannot hear inflection or see faces, but the questioning is all very polite and barely accusatory. The police are always apologizing: “I have to ask this, because it’s my job…”
I suppose this behavior is good for the old adage: “Innocent until proven guilty”.
However, all three roomies claim “I just don’t know what happened!”
How is that an acceptable answer??
The only new info I’m getting from this is:
1. Dylan left Joe and Robert while they were exploring the shower.
2. Dylan (and Victor) didn’t recall seeing a knife.
Now it’s looking like Joe was the last person to see Robert alive (according to everyone’s statements).
And Joe is the only one to admit seeing and touching the knife (“oops, I should have known better…”)
I’m not sure I have any new theories after reading all these.
From the way Dylan acted, it sounded like he was in sleeping pill la-la land — my boyfriend takes them sometimes and I know that they make him a little loopy right at bedtime.
I believe that Dylan was asleep through everything, and it also explains why he arrived late to the murder scene and acted out-of-it when the police arrived. This is totally plausible to me. He could have been barely awake.
Finally …. I sound like a broken record, but the timing of Robert arriving and dying DOES NOT MAKE SENSE. Especially if you figure in sexual assault — which I’m still not sure occurred. I know Robert’s sperm was found on his body, but wasn’t that just “voiding” upon death?
I will admit that the idea of Victor as a jealous husband losing his mind and stabbing Robert makes sense now …. but does not explain things like incapacitating Robert by pricking him with a drug, and then sexually assaulting him.
Oy!
Unless Robert’s water was spiked, some combination of Joe/Dylan/Michael further drugged him with injections once he passed out upstairs (in the bathroom?) and a furious Victor stabbed Robert while he was incapacitated.
If we consider any of their statements to be true, that is…
I agree, the timing is still an issue to me, I will have to figure this out pedantically.
I’m not so sure that someone who is angry and blinded by jealousy – enough to stab someone, would help make that person’s bed. Victor, even in his own account, gave the impression of being upset by Robert’s visit but not utterly, insanely outraged.
Fascinating: If there was no sexual assault, how did Robert’s semen get in his rectum? (See arrest affidavit.) To doubt sexual assault is not “voiding” – that’s avoiding reality.
CJ, I’m not doubting sexual assault. And I don’t think I wrote my comment clearly enough. What I was getting at (and which I think I read somewhere here) is that the defense countered that semen on Robert’s legs and rectum was the result of the body “voiding” itself when it died … and was not sexual assault.
If the defense was muddying the waters, then it worked on me! Because now I’m confused if (according to the authorities) it is now 100% sure that Robert was sexually assaulted.
I’m just wondering if this aspect of the murder will ever make it to trial.
I don’t doubt it happened … I’m simply confused about how it will play (or if it will play) in court now.
You know, the weird thing is that as I read this; I believe him. Victor I believe not so much and Joe, not at all.
Previously, I cheifly thought of Dylan in this sinister, nefarious way because he’s the cultural oddity in that little household. All of my long experience with people of different sexual tastes, different what is termed “lifestyles” still left me thinking of him as more likely to be culpable because he’s a wastrel and a basically a prostitute, but you know his narrative sounds pretty believable to me and Joe and Victor’s do not.
I know that he added the car thing, which I think came from Joe, but I am starting to think it is entirely possible that he took his pill and slept and did not know that Joe was murdering Robert.
I had the same reaction… and it’s not at all the reaction I expected to have. I’m glad to hear you say it.
The thing that still throws me, though, is why Joe expressed so much concern for Dylan during his interview. Perhaps that’s just something to do with the nature of their relationship, vs. Joe’s relationship with Victor?
I was also surprised by his interview, his collectedness and his sticking to his story.
Hence my comment about his being a writer. Also, remember, he’s into marketing.
Could these qualities help him be more convincing?
Ditto AnnaZ. Only difference, is that I’ve never thought Dylan to be the villian many paint him to be. To me, Dylan is a wayward fellow that latches onto a dominant lead.
To me, Dylan is the kind of person that would be ripe for gangs or cults. Show interest in him and he’ll follow you around. He’s shown his ability to morph himself in other situations not involving Joe (i.e., going to cooking shool after meeting some folks that owned a restaurant…..writing seemed to be triggered by another friend.) Sadly, these other people triggered achievement in Dylan. Joe triggered a downward spiral. Drugs…sex….and possibly murder and/or a criminal coverup.
Oh come on. Maybe the murder weapon — the missing knife from Dylan’s room — also took a sleeping pill and went on a rampage by itself.
Or it was taken from his room while he was zonked out on pills.
Or, as others have speculated, maybe it was in circulation in the kitchen.
CJ, I think it is entirely likely that that small knife was already in play in Joe and Dylan’s sex life and hadn’t lived in that box with it’s mates for some time. Or it could have been in play in the kitchen for more pedestrian purposes. Is there anyplace in the police inventory where the number of holes in the knife block were counted (?), 2 knives missing, one knife? Anyway, there are also drawers or even the knife living in the desk drawer in the study for some sort of sexual fun-time that Joe liked. Anyway, I’m not as sure as I once was that it means anything that that knife came from a set in Dylan’s room. In fact that might in part explain why no one thought to go get the rest of the set and dispose of it when the gathering and disposing of incriminating evidence was going on.
AZ, we’ve also been influenced by the fact that the very first arrest warrant was for Dylan. That established him in our minds as a “bad guy” from early on.
Oh, I also forgot to mention that one of the other reasons that I am starting to re-examine Dylan’s role and starting to wonder if he might be more innocent of the larger crime (murder) than I had previously speculated is on account of the din of the vociferous, slightly unhinged and incessant finger-pointing at him by the trouple’s only apologist on this site.
That hammering of Dylan and the clumsy characterizations of Dylan as being mentally ill and incapable of understanding his actions has been having something of the reverse of its intended effect on me. I think Grisham was asking yesterday why wouldn’t the defense assign a team of supporters to love-bomb this site with their version of events. Well indeed, why not? The reason is that their position is very hard to defend, almost impossible.
So, as a result there is only the lone free-lancer who seems more like a fan than an insider, sort of like one of those sad disturbed women who marry serial killers once they are jailed. This lone voice seems to be very interested in ingratiating himself to Joe though and has spent every single day for months posting about how Dylan Ward murdered Robert Wone while Joe was watching TV innocently with his wife. Just the fact of that on-going campaign is giving me pause.
Indeed. Love-bombing this site to “Free Victor” seems to be well documented.
Bea, what do you think about this possibilty?
I don’t know what Bea thinks, but there certainly is a fair amount of Victor love on this site. I myself am vulnerable to it in spite of being the at one time agitator to have Victor’s role re-examined and bending myself into a pretzel shape to characterize him as the stealth principal actor in this crime. Yet at this time I just don’t believe it. I don’t think that I have been unduly influenced by other posters in arriving at this. I think it’s the 911 tape and Ma’am’s obvious distress that convinces many that he was not the murderer of Robert Wone.
Still, as a theory, the idea that Connolly has clever minions here working ceaselessly to spin the narrative in Victor’s favor is interesting. In this day and age entirely “plausible.”
John, I have always admitted to being a Victor apologist in the sense that I do not think he planned or committed the assault and murder. I do think he’s guilty of conspiracy and obstruction, possibly tampering and that he should go to jail unless he testifies for the prosecution to send away the murderer(s).
When I read your “love bombing the site” theory post and your earlier posts insinuating that I might being a ‘troll’ for the defense (I believe you characterized me as having some sort of personal relationship with Michael Price along the way), I did my best to ignore them.
Interestingly, someone latched on to your posts thinking that it was meant for BenFranklin’s ne’erending love for Joe Price, but I suspect I was in your sites – if not, my apologies.
I am not connected to the defense or to any defendant, including Victor. I’ve never met them or anyone they know (except a few lawyers at Arent Fox – a big firm – and I don’t know any who claim to know Joe Price).
As you know, I hold hope that Victor will tell the whole truth, and assuming that I (and others) am/are correct that he did not wield the knife, that he’d get an immunity deal in order to send the murderers away for murder instead of just the current charges. But I doubt he has the spine (or other body parts) necessary to do so (and thus should go to jail). Despite his apparent spinelessness, despite that I have utter contempt for him if he suspected something awful might be happening that he did not STOP, and despite I find it personally appalling that even without active involvement in the rape/murder that he would CHOOSE not to come forward to give the memory of Robert Wone the justice he deserved (and Kathy Wone peace of mind), none of these bad actions puts him in the same category as the person(s) who raped and murdered Robert.
I hold the personal opinion that he may well NOT have had any involvement until Robert was dead – and then he screamed his fool head off (that, and the part of his 911 call relating to seeing that Robert was stabbed in the chest ring true to me). That does not exonerate him from his acts from the point of learning Robert was dead – but, for me – degree of culpability and the nature of ACTIONS are to be judged individually, and I don’t believe he should be “tossed in” with Joe and Dylan because he was there that night. He could be a relatively ordinary (albeit spineless) man in love with a killer, and once the murder was over, decided to take the ill-advised path of deciding because he could not bring Robert back from the dead that he’d risk jail time to prevent his (likely despicable) lover from spending the rest of his days in prison. He may believe that Joe will NOT allow him to go to prison, that he’ll take the fall at the last minute (good luck with that, Victor). But I don’t think (and I always admit I could be wrong) based on the evidence, which includes anecdotal evidence as well as what the “file” evidence shows, that he’s a rapist or a murderer. If that’s correct, he should not face the same punishment as the men who are guilty of raping and murdering Robert simply because he’s not turned them in (to date).
At one point you jumped all over me for saying that the ‘honorable’ thing for Victor to do would be to tell the truth – your opinion was that even if he did come forward, he was still essentially (and I am putting words in your mouth) “slime”. I hold firm in my stance that if Victor comes forward prior to trial that I will have a modicum of respect for him. I know that on that score we disagree.
I do hope you’ll lay off me. It’s tiresome. Perhaps you’ll be convinced if the Eds confirm that to their knowledge I have no affiliation with the defense – I’ve given full personal details to the Eds and they’ve likely checked out (or can check out) my law website and can vouch that I’m in California (and have communicated with me via that law firm website). If you want, you can ask that they check my records with the California bar (www.calbar.org). I hope you understand that I’m not inclined to provide my personal information publicly.
We disagree – can we let it go?
“Let it go?” Let go of my sense that the reason the three perps (and perhaps others) are sticking together so tightly has little to do with Victor’s sentimental attachment to — or romantic dependency with — Joe? I don’t think so. Rather, I see Victor’s seemingly mysterious and prolonged silence having much more to do with the household’s common, shared knowledge of some telling aspects of Victor’s involvement in Robert’s murder (not just the cover-up).
I find it intriguing how the perp’s possession of sex toys, porn on the office computer, altcom profiles, massage services, Crew Club memberships and the like, initially led many folks (including myself) to form initial opinions about the involvement of various people in the murder. Indeed, to establish reasonable motive for Joe and Dylan. Now, I suspect that Victor was simply more discrete than the others in hiding his own kinky tastes and behaviors, and that all three were truly trying to develop equality in their relationship, including on the sexual level.
Yes Bea, we can disagree. But I can’t “let it go.”
Victor probably watched all the time.
Victor as voyeur? No. She was too tired (after just coming in from Denver and then gym-hopping and then cooking & chores) to be in any mood to watch or to play. “Oh, Robert’s coming over” would be “the last straw” that would keep the “exhausted” Victor in that bed until the “commotion.”
I still cannot see Ma’am in a harness, but cross-your-heart ones are being now sold.
Oh no…..not THAT night. I’m speaking of pre-August 2006, in general. I’m sure Victor watched Dylan and Victor’s activities.
Participation? Absolutely not. Watch only.
John, you know the ‘let it go’ reference was asking you to stop with the personal attacks against me. We have different opinions, yes. All fine. But the innuendo that I’m pals with Michael Price and/or a troll for the defense has to stop. Your attempt to dodge the clear meaning of my post is disingenuous at best.
You think Victor is a cold-blooded killer with “kinky tastes and behaviors”; I don’t. I would ask why it irks you so that I disagree but frankly I don’t care enough to get you started. Have a good day.
Bea,
You know how much I apprectiate your take on what transpired that night. In fact it was your early takes early on datalounge that peaked my interests to investigate this case further. From what I sense though, let me offer a bit different perspective on Victor’s gym stop the evening of the murder. I see it as less likely that Victor knew Joe being “at the gym” could mean more sinister activities, such as picking up drugs from Michael. I see it more as Victor, spouse #1, after being away for several days wants to touch base with his husband upon arrival. It is a self-perservation move inside the relationship. Twice that evening Victor learned about Joe plans from spouse # 2, Dylan. First when he learns from Dylan that Joe is at the gym, and next when he learns that Robert, Joe’s best friend, is staying the night. Does Dylan know more about Joe activities than Victor? Could that have made Victor feel threatened? The first time he heard from Dylan he rushed off to the gym to meet up with the Joe, but the second time, was it too much for Victor and he went off?
I don’t know, but it seems not out of the ball park.
David
I don’t have an issue with a differing opinion. I personally don’t see Victor as the primary actor (or even one of the killers). But I could be wrong – could EASILY be wrong about why he went to the gym. The frustration you likely read in my post is just John’s dogged blasting of me as a ‘troll’ for the defense and Michael Price’s pal. Maybe I’m in a bad mood, but finally I had to call him on it and tell him to knock it off.
I respect all points of view here, including ones I personally don’t agree with. I don’t dispute that Victor may have wanted a private word with Joe at the gym, nor that he may have been very ‘miffed’ to have been left out of the loop in favor of “the Second Wife” (to use Big Love nomenclature). Perhaps Ma’am’s emotional outbreak at seeing Robert’s body seems the ONLY legitimate emotional response all evening – can’t square that with Victor as killer.
As always, hats off to the Eds.
Bea,
I know you have no issue with differing opinions. You argue your points (extremely) well, and I am fall far more often than not in the same general vicinity as your reasoning.
David
john grisham: have you listened to victor’s 911 call? to my ear, he sounds genuinely and authentically terrified of an intruder still being in the house. to me, the 911 call equals not guilty for victor. just my two cents. attack away you all.
Plumskitter,
I do not think Victor had a hand in the murder, but he knows that Robert was murdered by someone familiar to the residents of 1509 Swann, if not an actual resident. He’s guilty of conspiracy, in the least. An innocent by-stander, he is not.
Also, a former GF (or female friend) of Victor’s posted on this site a while back. Knowing Victor closely, she believed the 911 call to be a performance.
I don’t think Victor was involved in the assault or murder though clearly he is involved in the cover-up (and thus guilty of conspiracy and obstruction, if not tampering).
There was a lot of discussion about the 911 tape when it was released – I think at a minimum that he’s conscious that he’s spewing falsehoods (about the intruder), but too I hear authenticity at certain times (such as when he informs the operator that Robert was stabbed “in the chest” upon seeing him).
Plums, I don’t know that the call will get him a ‘not guilty’ of conspiracy/etc (wish he would cooperate) – if the screams hadn’t been 15-45 minutes before the call, perhaps, but with that delay in time, he had to have hand in the conspiracy IMO.
Given the charges before us, I suspect Victor will get the same verdict as the other two – he will likely have all the time in the world to ponder his actions while he’s sitting in prison. Or he could take action now and change things.
BEA
Also an admitted Victor apologist as you would put it and also one who has generally agreed with you in the past, I agree again.
With perhaps one exception. I would think better of Victor were he to turn state’s evidence, but only better than I would have thought had he not done so.
Unlike John, I need no proof of your bona fides and am sorry you have been given such a hard time.
I am completely unable to parse this for meaning:
“I would think better of Victor were he to turn state’s evidence, but only better than I would have thought had he not done so.”
I interprate this as: Robert has disgust for Victor and, should Victor fess up on what happened, Robert would have less disgust for him (but only slightly)
ANNAZED
I think that understandably
BEA has felt she has been repeatedly attacked by JOHN GRISHAM.
In one of her responses to John above, BEA reminded him that that she has never denied being what she herself characterizes as a “Victor apologist.”
She also restated her conviction that “if Victor comes forward prior to trial that I [Bea] will have a modicum of respect for him. I know that on that score we [John and she]
disagree.”
I supported BEA by saying that as she knows I am also an admitted “Victor apologist” and that as she also knows I usually agree with virtually all of her observations including those made on this particular occasion.
With one exception of which she is also aware from my prior comments.
Namely, that while I would also think better of Victor should he come forward, his improved standing with me might not be as great as BEA has indicated it will be for her.
This might be innocuous, but comparing Dylan’s version of what the conversation topics were with Robert after he arrived to Joseph’s, there are definitely discrepancies. Some excerpts:
Ward:
Nothing. We talked about his wife. We talked about our friend Lisa. We talked briefly about his job. Joe talked about the shower breaking. We talked about it being so hot in his room. It was just chitchat.
[…]
Detective Norris: What conversation did you have about his wife?
MR. WARD. His wife had had hip surgery a few
months ago and we went to visit her, and I just asked how she was doing. And then Joe asked about her new job, because she has as new job, and he said that, you know, that it was okay, that, you know, he didn’t know if it was that she didn’t get
along with her bosses or what, but it was just like — that’s all we talked about, was when she got paid and how she liked her new job.
[…]
And he was asking Joe, who’s a lawyer, some
questions that concerned his job, like about their trademark or — I’m not sure exactly.
[…]
We talked about his wife, his job, a friend of
ours, you know, just chitchat.
[…]
We talk for like 10 minutes or something, just catching up chitchat, how his wife Cathy’s doing because she had a hip surgery or replacement lately, stuff like that.
Price:
He, he came in the front door, he said hello, you know, went over, we had a glass of water, you
know, talked a little bit. He told me about the CLE, I asked him why, why are you visiting these people at night? It seems funny. You know, you’re the general counsel. Like what’s the connection? You know, like why would you be meeting the guys
at night? He told me the thing about well, the last guy got booted for, you know, a variety of reasons, one of, you know, One of which was he said exactly he did not communicate with the peons. Although, Robert would be the first person on earth to say he was a pion.
And I joked with him and said oh, did you bring us
some Krispy Kreme donuts? You know, and he said no, but he had brought some other chipped — I guess their air-conditioner broke down, ice cream.
[…]
We had, like, a glass of water, you know, shot the bull. Why-was Robert visiting the late crew? It seemed (indiscernible)to me. I guess the general counsel meet like the — you know,Robert’s (indiscernible) the guy before had got the boot, one
of the reasons, because he was not –he didn’t communicatewell with the peons. I joked with him (indiscernible) or something like that. It was a meaningless conversation,
I’ve been thinking about that too. Thanks for pulling out the specific language. I’m thinking that either Dylan excused himself as soon as Joe (finally) came downstairs, so there was no conversation between all 3 of them, or that Joe or Dylan has a hazy memory of the conversation because of the chemical substances affecting his brain.
It would be interesting to know when Joseph and/or Dylan took what drugs and how
“stoned” they were at various times.
If they were totally bonkers when whatever happened happened, one would have thought they should have used that fact to mitigate the charges lodged and/or penalty imposed.
While I suspect that both Joseph and Dylan were “high” much of the time, I do not think Victor was high at any time. If anything, thanks to Joseph, Victor was “down.”
All of which would mean that unlike Joseph and Dylan, Victor has no intoxication excuse for whatever his role may have been.
I got the feeling Dylan just wasn’t paying attention. I know when the lawyers in my life get together and start talking shop, I tune it out and think of other things while smiling politely. I can see Dylan the non-lawyer doing this.
In digesting this a bit longer, like others, I don’t see Dylan as the lead actor in this horrific play. Joe “sounds” the most guilty in his statement (at times nonsensical) and if there’s someone who’s likely very high, it’s him.
Agree that Dylan is a follower. Maybe he went along with Joe’s plan (otherwise, I don’t know why Joe was so bent on getting to see Dylan/talk to Dylan/worry over Dylan’s rights at the station) but I don’t think he’s the driving force. Even in his own life (“Can I call my parents?”). BUT it’s very likely he failed the polygraph – maybe he took it thinking he DID nothing but when it got to what did JOE do, he lied. He was across the hall, left Joe in the bathroom with Robert – I’m sure he got a sense of what was going on (before he ‘took his pill’), explicit or implicit.
I don’t see Victor as flipping out and stabbing anyone – (to use a turn of phrase many might not like) Victor is a big girl. His statement was coherent. As for Dylan sounding more ‘honest’ than Victor, I agree that he’s at least willing to say he wasn’t there to see what happened, but he says he ‘doesn’t know’ to nearly everything. We don’t know what the other parts of transcripts say – these (I believe) were the long-lost ones.
I don’t believe Dylan’s statement that from across the room he noticed the door was unlocked (“vertical”) given his space cadet demeanor until that point. Didn’t try to help – sat down on the sofa because he was distraught. Butch up, buddy, and either help with Robert or run downstairs to chase the alleged intruder!
Joe was a mess. He badly miscalculated how well he’d do – his words on a page (without context, without expression) do not ring true. It sounds like BS.
Victor IS lying about Joe’s whereabouts (is my take) and perhaps Joe and Robert never made it out of the shower in the first place. Joe’s only entre into the third floor was to ensure Victor was unlikely to come upstairs. Could he have decided to take care of this himself and then Victor heard something too weird and descended – and screamed his fool head off? Joe was the biggest of the three, and if any of them can carry Robert around, he’d be the most likely. But I haven’t ruled out Dylan on that, the dom in name, whose been reading up on how to please Joe for some time. I wouldn’t be surprised if Dylan could ‘live’ with his actions if he wasn’t the actual killer – figures the current charges are really “fair” so why not toe the line?
Mr. Ward’s account, on the whole is plausible. He only describes what he personally experienced. He generally distinguish facts from opinions. When he ventures an opinion, he generally gives a plausible reason why he holds a particular opinion. Nonetheless, he makes a couple of subtle slips that have (to me) a very sinister cast.
The most egregious slip occurs on p. 48, where Detective Kasul asks Mr. Ward what clothes Joe was wearing. Mr. Ward replies immediately (blue shirt and khaki shorts). Then Det. Kasul asks Mr. Ward what clothes he (Mr. Ward) was wearing. Mr. Ward says he can’t remember, and then volunteers that earlier he was wearing a blue shirt and some other shorts, but can’t exactly remember the color.
“Maybe rust?” prompts Det. Kasul.
“Yeah, like kinda rust colored.”
This shouldn’t be a tricky question. When Mr. Ward got dressed, he got his clothes from somewhere (like a dresser drawer), and when he got undressed, he removed those clothes and put them somewhere (like in a laundry hamper, or on the floor, or whatever).
Mr. Ward ought to have at least as good recall of his own clothes as he does of Joe’s clothes. Unless, of course, the clothes were contaminated with blood and had to vanish. In that case, Mr. Ward would have to struggle with reconstructing exactly what garments the Police will find in the top of his laundry hamper from two days ago.
That could make one go all vague and uncertain.
Bad Shoes,
Wickly smart analysis, Bad Shoes. Smart. Smart. Smart.
David
I stumbled over the Dylan-can’t-remember his own clothes thing too but didn’t go back to it. I think you’re on to something – he’s unwilling to commit because he’s got his concerns. Even if the shorts are long gone, he’s doing a double-take and doesn’t want to get caught in a dead-to-nuts lie (as Joe has warned him – but Joe himself has forgotten).
When the doorbell rings and it’s someone you know is coming, if you’re not dressed, you grab the closest clothes. UNLESS he expected (as he said) that Joe would answer and bring him up to where one did not need clothes. Sounds porn-awful but it’s at least remotely possible.
Sounds like noBody, meaning Joseph or Dylan, wanted to get caught “with his pants down.”
“had to vanish”…..very interesting, BadShoes.
I bet we could take a poll right now and most people would remember what they had on yesterday. I do.
Sorry. This doesn’t strike me as significant or egregious. If you change your clothes two or three times in a day (and these guys seem like they might be the type to do that), and if much of your casual wardrobe is similar (rust v. brown v. copper), and if you aren’t particularly fastidious about putting clothes away (or in the laundry) before you slip out of them and hop into bed, and if you get awakened in the middle of the night and witness a murder scene and then get taken to a police precinct hours later and are being aggressively questioned for hours about various and disparate details, I’d allow a guy a second of indecision.
He answered quickly enough and accurately enough that unless you’re trying to make mountains out of molehills, it’s no cause for paranoia. When I hopped up last night to run down to the deli for a late-night snack, did I wear my black Patagonia trunks or my grey Timberland hiking shorts. Couldn’t tell ya without review a security tape.
Normally I would agree with you. My boyfriend doesn’t even own a robe, just his shorts on the floor in case of earthquake or fire (ha!), but when there has been a murder and a murder scene clean-up I think that qualifies as cause for paranoia.
Lycomb.Young,
Welcome to the site, and thanks for the comment!
To help you fill out some if the “what ifs” that you presented, from what we have heard from several folks who know the defedants and the living style, both Victor and Dylan were known to be clean, even obessively so. One friend of theirs believed the cleaning up story not as a cover up but just because Victor wouldn’t have wanted blood to be soaking into the couch. I am sure this is a tongue-in-cheek interpretation, but it does point to the fact that these guys were not throw-our-clothes-on-the-floor types. They kept an extremely tidy house. One would even say it felt like they were living in a staged home. I would say they were fastidious.
David
That’s a fair enough point, David–that 1509 was a houseful of Sidney Sawyers.
But I would just point out that his instant of uncertainty in responding isn’t inconsistent with the rest of his account–specifically, that he had to get up unexpectedly to answer the door. If we want to play the game of ‘close-reading’ his words, he DID say he “threw on some clothes” went downstairs, let the guest in, chatted for 10-15 minutes, then went back upstairs to his room, going to bed and to sleep very shortly thereafter.
“Threw on some clothes” doesn’t sound to me like he opened a closet and removed his favorite rust-colored smoking jacket from its hanger, and co-ordinated it with a tasteful pair of rust-colored shorts before sauntering downstairs to seduce his victim. “Threw on” sounds like he picked up whatever he’d left draped over the footboard, or on an ottoman beside a bed.
At worst, maybe he reached into an armoire and grabbed whatever was on top. Fastidious as they may’ve been, sometimes a boy is just worn out and ready to get to sleep. A close reading of what he said does as much to solidify his account as his instant of indecision does to call it into question, maybe more. To my ear/eye at least.
Maybe it would be useful to recollect a few key facts here:
1) Mr. Wone was dead and had been dead “for some time” at midnight.
2)Therefore, he was murdered well before the 11:35-11:45pm time frame proposed for the great descent of Messrs. Price and Zaborsky.
2) Mr. Wone was stabbed in the heart, which left “blood everywhere.” Most of the blood was gone by midnight.
3) Blood removal was complete prior to the time of the great descent, and would have taken some period of time.
4) No unknown assailant could possibly have cleaned up the crime scene.
5) The basic chronology recounted by all three defendents is therefore false.
6) Then there are a lot complicated details.
The statements of the defendents are a mix of fact, intentional fiction, and unintentional error. Intentional fictions, if we can identify them, offer as almost as much insight as true facts.
Actually, 1), 2) and 3) are facts, and 4), 5) and 6) are conclusions
Actually, on re-reading the transcript, Mr. Ward didn’t have “a second of indecision.” He never answered the question. He said he didn’t recall, and then answered a question that wasn’t asked: he offered that earlier in the day he had warn a blue t-shirt and some kind of shorts. The detective helpfully suggested that the shorts might have been rust colored. Mr. Ward then agreed that earlier he had worn rust-colored shorts. A little later on he clarified that he still didn’t remember what he had been wearing when he let Mr. Wone in.
Victor seems an unlikely murderer, but it would explain why nobody’s talking. Dylan was in a drugged sleep and doesn’t know what happened;Joe is guilty of drugging and assaulting Robert and Victor can’t talk because he killed him. Just speculation but …
I think this may not be absurd. The only thing is: what about Victor screaming? Did he scream (as result of walking in on Joe) and then murdered Robert? Or did he scream before calling 911 to wake Dylan to the scene?
If your speculation is in fact true, it would also explain why neither one was concerned about Dylan’s safety, when they ‘found Robert bleeding’.
However, why did Dylan appear rattled/apprehensive and forgetful when questioned on the clothes he had worn?
This isn’t related, but I just found it spooky and didn’t know where to put it. In the defendants’ motion to exclude argument that the crime scene was cleaned, they cited “Principles of Bloodstain Pattern Analysis,” for the lack of blood, including the cite:
“stab wound of the chest where a major vessel or the heart is penetrated…will cause massive internal bleed….Abdominal stab wounds, even fatal ones, rarely have significant external bleeding.”
If you look this book up on google books, the following page shows a picture of a knife block, with the caption “The wooden knife block in the kitchen – “weapons of opportunity.”
I would think that even fatal abdominal stab wounds are rarely immediately fatal. The eventual cause of death would be shock, infection (peritonitis) or damage to a major organ (like the liver).
If Mr. Wone had only received a wound that didn’t cause massive bleeding, he probably would have remained alive for some prolonged period of time.
Why would one wear rust-colored shorts with a blue T-shirt? Dyl might have benefited from watching Project Runway, after all.
Mr. Ward knew about Robert’s stay at least two days in advance, but Vic only learned about it from Dyl, not Joe, thirty minutes before Robert’s arrival. Who really was Joe’s closest partner, at least in the summer of 2006? He suggested that he initially thought the two might have been fighting when he first heard a commotion. Why would he have thought that?
Mr. Ward played butler and valet well, answering the door for Robert and then getting underwear guy a robe to wear later on. He strikes me as the servant in a master-mistress-servant relationship.
Victor and I were worried, said Dyl, but the sidekick then sidestepped Joe’s emotional state.
Dyl made $55,000 in 2006? He must have been selling a lot of crap over the phone.
Mr. Ward was worried for Miss Morgan: that was a bit surprising, given their reported tensions.
Dyl NEVER saw the knife, which Joe admitted that he touched and moved. Game over, Ben and Bernie!
Was it Mr. Ward’s kid brother Mac who stayed over the previous weekend?
Who uses the word “ajar”? I do, but I am a fussy old pedant. Yet, BOTH Vic and Dyl used it in their coached responses about the back door.
Dyl wanted to see magazines at one point, and he claimed that he did not have a phone. How refreshingly retro! What was he reading though just for five minutes before falling asleep? Was it the New Yorker, or was it something else?
What is this tortured description about a pad? Is he referring obliquely to play sheets discarded by someone before the police came to the scene?
The biggest discrepancy I noticed was the description of what Joe was doing during the 911 call:
Dylan: No towel — Joe just sitting on the bed not doing anything (although in the later interview Dylan seems to figure out he might have made a mistake and says there might have been a towel).
Joe: One towel — Victor handed him a towel and he started applying pressure.
Victor: Two towels — He gave Joe a towel but Joe was already applying pressure with a towel.
Once the 911 call was made and authorities arrived, there was no more opportunity to coordinate stories.
Because of the conflicting accounts, I have always been confused about the whole towel thing.
Let us presume that one or more of the defendants stabbed Robert.
First question: was there are alot of blood loss or not so much?
Second question: was Robert alive very long after the stabbing or not so long?
Third question: if Robert was NOT alive and there was NOT much blood loss, how could one claim to have staunched that which did not need to have been staunched and why would one claim to have done so?
If he’s dead, he’s dead. Why not just say, “the intruder did it.”
Fourth question: if Robert was NOT alive and there WAS much blood loss, what would be the reason for staunching that which did not need to be staunched?
Yes, he’s dead, but he’s making a mess. I suppose you can’t say: “we did it to protect the furniture.”
Fifth question: if Robert WAS alive and there was NOT much blood loss, how could one claim to have staunched that which needed not to be staunched unless one simply wished to demonstrate that one had indeed engaged in
“some” measure to save a friend?
“Yes, he was alive, but it didn’t appear that there was much we could do to save him.”
Sixth question: if Robert WAS alive and there WAS much blood loss, how would one have staunched or not staunched or directed another to staunch or not staunch the blood flowing from a victim that one did not expect to survive and did not wish to survive and how would one explain or not explain or direct another to explain or not explain any actions relating thereto whatever they may or may not have been?
“I/we (the proverbial) heard some noise but we couldn’t tell what it was. We can’t remember whether or not we heard the door chime. But we distinctly remember hearing what could best be described as the sound of a person grunting or groaning.
“Though we were each scared for our own lives — not to mention those of one another (being the good samaritan Gay activists that we are, we always put the lives of others first) — we ran downstairs and lo and behold, there was our beloved friend, Robert, lying there, I mean just lying there in a pool of blood.
“Well, next thing you know Victor comes flying into the room and the first thing he sees is Joseph standing there with a bloody knife in his hands. What room? I’m not sure. But that’s a good question now that you mention it.
“You can you imagine the look on Victor’s face. Or maybe you can’t. I mean who knows what he was thinking at that point. Then, Victor sees Robert’s bloody body lying there. Where? Oh, I don’t remember exactly.
“But oh, my god! Victor took one look at Robert’s bloody body and he really freaked out. I mean really freaked out. Really, really freaked out. I mean he just totally lost it.
“Next thing you know, Victor’s screaming, I mean really screaming. Really screaming. He screamed so loud one could even believe the neighbors heard him. I mean, he was really, really freaking out.
“Can you imagine what it feels like to find one of your best friends lying in a pool of blood — and in your own home? I mean really.
“Well, we simply didn’t know what to do. I mean it’s not everyday, one finds anybody let alone one of one’s best friends lying in a pool of blood. And its not like we’re medics or anything. Thank god, Joe was once an Eagle Scout. So he had at least some idea of how to approach the situation.
“Here my recollection gets a little hazy. I can’t remember if it was Joe, Dylan or both of them who was standing above, sitting near or kneeling down by Robert’s body with one, two or who knows how many towels in their hand.
“But I remember quite clearly seeing Joseph desperately, I mean desperately, just desparately trying to staunch the flow of what little or lot of blood there was or was not coming from Robert’s alive or lifeless body.
“I also remember Joe shouting at Victor, ‘get yourself together, call 911, tell them that someone’s been stabbed, our friend, he’s been stabbed.’
“So, Victor did as he was told. He called 911. But he was shaking like a leaf. I mean you know Victor. Or maybe you don’t.
“And he was confused. Very confused. Joseph had to practically tell him everything to say. What did he say? I can’t recall right now.
“Then they, you know emergency services or whatever they call themselves, asked by whom. By whom? By whom?
“At the time, I thought that was the strangest question. I mean, how should we know by whom? The only thing we knew for sure was that is wasn’t one of us.
“Then it struck me. It must have been an intruder. I mean, what other possible explanation could there be”?
Laughing through the tears. If only this was a comedy on stage, and not real life…
re: mentions above about Joe not hearing the doorbell
Not only didn’t he hear the doorbell, but wouldn’t the front door chime once it was opened? I believe it was stated somewhere that the doors all had sensors for chimes; this chime is loud enough to wake Joe up ‘9 times out of 10.’ But it appears both Victor and Joe miss hearing this chime when Dylan goes down to let Robert in.
Victor:
“Joe went downstairs probably about ten minutes later, or something like that, and evidently Robert had come and Dylan had gotten the door, and so they stayed down there.”
“And Joe and I were watching TV then for a few minutes. And then Joe went downstairs and it turned out that he had come and Dylan had let him in. And so I stayed upstairs.”
Joseph:
“Dylan’s bedroom is on the second floor. He heard the doorbell or whatever. He went down to let Robert in. I came down, Victor had already gone upstairs and gotten undressed or gotten in bed.”
Dylan:
“He’s Joe’s friend. I thought Joe would get the door. The doorbell rings. No one answered it for a couple minutes, bo I throw on my clothes and go down and I let Robert in. And our door has a chime on it […] So the door chimed and then Joe comes downstairs, because I’m sure he heard the door chime as well.”
Probably meaningless, but odd, since they make such a make deal of hearing the chimes. I’m guessing there is a speaker box in the master bedroom that makes the sound. If Victor+Joe didn’t hear it when the front door was opened, why not? Not in the master bedroom? Arguing about an unexpected guest?
This isn’t meaningless. I also wonder why Joe didn’t open for Robert, since Robert even phoned to notify him.
Well, Mr. Price could have been using the bathroom at the very time of Robert’s arrival. All that steak and all.
He also could have been intrigued by a critical turning point in “Reap What You Sew.”
Or, he was already feeling the effects of “the dolls” that he had taken just minutes earlier.
Or, Dyl was footman, butler, and scullery maid at 1509 Swann and was expected to answer the front door for the core couple.
“Robert is JUST a friend, a casual friend,” said Dyl, who claimed to have met Robert just twice. This was claimed even if Joe had told him about Robert and even if Dyl had met Kathy recently. Strange!
Dyl is not sure of the intruder theory, but he still trots out supporting details like his reading light facing the alleyway and the BMW as stepping stone. Good boy, said Joe.
“I don’t believe they did, but I don’t know for certain.” Bing, bing, bing, went the poly! Meet me in St. Louie or at Halo, girls!
Who knew that Sarah took morning constitutionals that set off the chimes? But then again, did she take her walk around midnight instead that fateful evening?
Were the trouple’s white robes terry-cloth? Were they designed for warmth or for slut wear? I am heartened that, even in such an unconventional household, robes were worn by two of the three! What man, though, has the foresight to grab a robe rather than a less mannered/specialized garment in a domestic crisis?
ANNAZED
There is actually a joke book about some real crazy questions which “lawyers” have asked witnesses.
It is hilarious. But not with MPD in this case.
HOYALOYA
My feeling is that Dylan and Victor’s distancing themselves is in part due to their thinking that would make them look less guilty.
Perhaps, it is probably all for the best that the defendants are not as logical as you are.
JUSTANOTHERFRIEND/DCTIM
I have to say that I am somewhat dubious about whether Joseph was actually watching television with Victor. Too bad, the detectives missed the opportunity to ask them details about the show.
SPIKE
According to Joseph, the spider was a Black Widow
who was hanging around the house waiting for the perfect opportunity to break in before Michael, kill the Chinese guest but not steal the fancy China.
CJBIGGS
I beg your pardon. Most of my friends are Straight and married with children. They are well aware that my sex life as a single Gay man not only may be different than theirs but is different than theirs!
But that does not mean that we have the sort of conversations you allude to in your posting any more than would most Straight married men have such conversations with other Straight married men or Gay single men have with most other Gay single men. Though some may be to the contrary.
On the other hand, I have shared with my Straight friends my heartbreaks over boyfriends as they share with me their marital problems.
And and the divorcees come to me their Gay friend for dating advice.
Many people don’t even share their fetishes with people their partners let alone strangers. For some reason, alot of people confide some of their deepest darkest secrets in me. But most people — Gay or Straight, male or female, single or married
— do not normally go around telling everybody about the most intimate parts of their lives.
I do not know who you are, the nature of your friends, your life experience or anything about you other than what you post on this site.
But I have all sorts of friends whom I gathering would appear to be as unlikely to you as Joseph and Robert. If one can even say such a thing.
Robert and Joseph went to college together. Joe was Robert’s mentor. They both were in student government in school and public service after.
They both became lawyers. Though Robert was from New York and Joseph most recently from Virginia they both ended up in Washington DC.
I would tell you more about my friends, but I don’t want to give away my identity or violate their privacy. But you would be surprised.
However, I will give you one example. I am a political radical all of whose family were blacklisted during the 1950’s.
One of my best friends in Washington for 25 years is retired from the NSA. The father of one of my godchildren is former CIA. A long time acquaintance is retired FBI.
In terms of sexual proclivities, what some of my friends have been into I would not go near with a ten foot pole so to speak. Notwithstanding, they tell me a lot of things I would not mind missing.
BEA
Actually, I think that they did change the sheets before placing Robert in that strange position.
I have
The more time goes by the more convinced I am that Dylan’s statement that blood got ‘under’ the sheet is really meaningful. I agree that Joe/Dylan changed the sheets a second time – their DNA was on it possibly even before Robert’s arrival (early playtime). That would explain why Dylan needed to put on clothes to go downstairs. He doesn’t have the tired-from-trip, want to show Joe he’s pissy excuse to “get ready for bed”. Also would explain why Joe “didn’t hear the doorbell” – he heard it but may have been waiting for Dylan to bring him up.
I hate sounding so cavalier about such a horrible crime.
The careful placement of Robert on the bed
whoops –
The careful placement of Robert on the bed would make sense after changing the sheets/making the bed, like has mentioned many times. Just goes with ‘blood under the sheet’ and WHY Dylan and Joe may have that thought in mind.
If Ward didn’t even make it into the bedroom to get a clear view of Robert, how could he have seen blood “under him” and be so certain it was two spots.
Doesn’t add up. Maybe he got these details from Price and parroted them back to the detectives?
Fascinating: It appears now that sexual assault and paralytix are off the table.
Kirschner’s Uncharged Conduct II filing is due soon. We’ll see it before next Friday’s status hearing probabaly and will know then if he winnows his case any further.
That’s exactly what I said, Craig. Dylan claims to have not seen the knife, nor was he able to see how the bed was “dressed” (i.e., couldn’t tell if there were sheets or not, but could see a pad), but he was able to discern small spots of blood beside Robert’s body?
And didn’t he help make the bed? Wouldn’t he know what was on the bed?
Makes me think he was truly not able to see in the room and, as you said, “parroted” Joe’s words.
I had another thought on this…Joe has claimed that he was compressing the wounds with towels, but evidence shows that there was no compression.
If Joe was not doing this, Dylan should have had a clear view into the room, as the EMTs said Joe was on the corner of the bed when they arrived.
Maybe Dylan was instructed to say these things to give the impression that Joe was doing what he claimed. And if so, Dylan would have NOT have had a clear view of Robert because Joe would have been in the way.
In this general topic, note that Joe says he was ‘kneeling’ next to Robert – I believe that Victor says the same thing though I’m less sure. Dylan, however, says that Joe was sitting next to Robert’s body. May seem minor – kneeling versus sitting – but they have different meanings and connote different levels of “activity” in this context.
My guess is that Joe was putting the final touches of rearranging Robert’s body when Victor appeared and that Dylan had gone back in his room. The fiction froze that in time.
Bea, the EMTs also said that Joe was sitting on the bed when they entered the room.
It would be difficult to apply pressure from a kneeling stance. You would need to be above the wound to apply adequate downward pressure. Plus Robert’s body was angled away from the side of the bed Joe was at.
“…It appears now that sexual assault and paralytix are off the table…”
Hmmm. Too bad.
Does that mean that the evidence is conflicting, and therefore not obvious that sexual assault happened?
Or that proving it is too hard?
It seems VERY important to the case … but now I’m questioning whether it happened or not.
For the looming murder case I would agree with you, but for the conspiracy case I think it’s just a distraction. These men lied to the authorities, altered the scene and disposed of crucial evidence at the location of a murder. That is all that needs to be proved now. I think the Government is right to stay focused.
Fascinating —
The prosecution has said it will not seek to introduce the sexual assault charge as its case-in-chief but will not shy away from it if it comes up at trial.
I think if it does comes up at trial the government could say one possible reason for the semen being found was sexual assault, and the defense can say one possible reason is the body voiding during the post-mortem process.
It would be up to a jury to decide which is the case.
There are two plausible explanations, so I would think they (the jury) need to look at the larger context surrounding the case to arrive at a just conclusion.
David
Got it! Thank you very much. I understand now.
CRAIG
What’s going on in the Uncharged Conduct filings?
BEA
Good points about the possibility of an “early playtime,” Dylan being undressed and Joe expecting Dylan to bring Robert up.
Would this mean that there was no kitchen conversation? Or that only Dylan was in the kitchen with Robert? Or that Robert’s drink was not dosed with a rape drug in the kitchen?
You don’t sound cavalier, you sound clear eyed through the tears which I share.
SPIKE
Thank you, thank you, thank you. It’s not unheard
of for my Straight friends to let me sleep over at their homes unafraid that I will assault them or molest their children.
Life can be so complicated. Even more so, when you start going around killing your close friends.
If nothing else, it reduces your social network.
BENFRANKLIN
First of all, most of the bloggers on this site reject the intruder story for one reason or another.
Second, “motiveless prescription triggered” killing
would make a whole lot of sense if it were not for one thing — each of the residents had a motive for killing Robert. The likelihood that it was a total accident seems remote.
Third, as anybody in the pharmaceutical business as I who wrote a book on Food and Drug Law can tell you, prescription labels are written for lawyers not for doctors. Many of the most discussed side effects have a million to one chance of occurring.
It is more likely that a meteor would hit the earth or a mentor would stab his serf than some of the side effects you are quoting out of some book.
CHARL
Dylan wrote children’s books and much of the evidence would lead one to believe that he really knew his subject.
As much as I hate to admit it, I started out with the same negative biases toward Dylan as did you apparently. I could be mistaken, but I seem to recall that the culinary knife in question was the only one missing from the set. Even if this turns out to be so, you could still be right in surmises.
I am under the impression that Dylan was in the nature of an obsessive compulsive. If I am wrong in this please ignore whatever I say on the subject.
I have always thought that what the culinary knife signified is that an obsessive compulsive went to a place where he knew he could find the knife in question precisely where he left it last.
A common characteristic of obsessive compulsives is to always keep control of what is yours and always put things back in the same place.
It can be most upsetting for an obsessive compulsive to find things out of the order in which he left them or things not being where they are supposed to be. That’s what makes us OCD.
I cannot speak for Dylan. But if it were me and I noticed a knife missing from a set, I would search all over hell and gone until I found it so I could put it back in its proper place. And that would be true even if I used it as part of a BDSM ritual.
BADSHOES
Good point about Dylan not remembering what clothes he wears. We OCD have been known to plan out our wardrobes weeks in advance. In other words, we don’t normally go to the closet and say: “what am I going to wear today”?
There’s no point in our boyfriend doing laundry. We are just going to fold everything over again.
Oh! And we don’t usually leave magazines laying on the floor out of kilter for an indefinite period of time. There would have to be some reason, a very good reason, a very, very good reason for doing so.
BEA
I understand what you are saying about finding it hard to believe that “space cadet” Dylan noticed the position of the deadbolt in question. And you are probably right in this instance given the distance if for no other reason.
But if Dylan is indeed OCD and should he have had
some responsibility for that particular deadbolt on a regular basis (such as making sure the door is always locked), there would be more reason for him to notice the position of that deadbolt than his housemates or your average person.
CLIO
Not all we Gay guys — including OCD guys — are fashionistas. But we can get very upset about our pads whether there the ones we live in or the ones we write on. We don’t like “loose” leafs — except possibly on statues of young Roman men.
SHEKNOWSSOMETHING
The relationship between arms summit downtown and the armed cleanup at Dupont Circle is due to the fact that Joseph, Victor and Dylan were trying to form a more harmonious nuclear family.
Unfortunately, instead of fusion all the Swann St ManHatTan project got was fission. Which led Joseph to go fishin’ for an ill fated relationship.
Result of which was destined to be what it could only be and turned out to be which is to say: a total meltdown.
HOYALOYA
Besides my not thinking that Victor is the killer, the motive for murder may have been jealousy,
the stabbing may have been its means, but as lightning rod BENFRANKLIN has opined, the wounds were not made by somebody “out of control.”
The coroner described the wounds as methodical. Somebody with training in culinary arts such as a Dylan or a former Eagle Scout such as a Joseph would have been best equipped to inflict same.
CJBIGGS
There are a myriad of ways that Robert’s own semen could have gotten into his rectum.
I happen to be one of those people who tends to believe Robert’s semen ended up in his rectum
as the result of employment of a sex toy such as a dildo or a sex device such as an electro-ejaculator.
The defense wants to argue that upon death one may ejaculate naturally. The defense postion is supported by science and not without merit .
With a knife missing from the culinary set in a darkened room of on floor of which is macabre magazine cartoon which could fortell the position in which Robert’s body would ultimately be found, I share your skepticism that Dylan was uninvolved.
JUSTANOTHERFRIEND
Having been a mentor to a number of younger men in the Gay community who asked me to take them under my wing though not sexually, I could see how Joseph might view Dylan as a man-boy in need of his love (such as it is), care and protection.
CDINDC
While I can see where you are going with this Joe “bad influence on Dylan” thing which may very well be valid, Joe did help stabilize Dylan by finding him jobs and giving him a place to live.
Other than sexual activity (whether consensual or not), what, specifically, are the ways that Robert’s own semen could have found its way into his own rectum. My apologies if this is explained elsewhere, but if a non-sexual explanation has been made for this fact, I have missed it in the relevant post(s). I am thoroughly baffled by this issue. While the suggestion has been made that a dying man could void semen as part of the dying process, that still does not tell me how the semen could travel physically to make its way not only to the anus, but INSIDE the dying man’s rectum. Somebody please help me understand what I have apparently missed.
Frederick,
I will try to explain what I know from the defense filing. Semen can leak as part of the post-portem process, and according to a study cited by the defense, that up to 60 percent of deceased men were found to also have substances which are, or are similar to, semen that is found inside the rectrum. Because the semen that was found on Robert was the result of taking several microscopically small samples and combining them from areas around his genitals, anus and inside his rectum, this is one way that this sample could test positive for semen.
Does this help explain you question?
David
This is totally changing how I view this whole murder now … have to admit.
Thanks, David. I just wish we could learn HOW semen can leak into the rectum upon death, especially someone recently dead and before decay is significant (at which point I suppose there could be leakage between the membranes separating the two systems). It just doesn’t make a lot of intuitive sense, and I wish I understood this better.
I certainly did not know that the samples from different areas of Robert’s body were combined. Is that in one of the reports? If the samples were combined, then it seems that is no basis at all for saying that the semen was found in his rectum, as opposed to another part of his body.
I think the defense might be saying that the “semen” was relocated inside the rectum by the test itself (i.e., when inserting a swab, perhaps the substance was transferred inside.)
Hi, Frederick. There’s a post on this site (3 March) that deals with this. Also see the document attached to that post. Hope this helps 🙂
One reason the upcoming trial is so important is that if the defendants are acquitted on the obstruction/conspiracy charges, the prosecution almost certainly will NOT charge them with murder/homicide.
In other words, if a jury finds the defendants not guilty of conspiracy/obstruction, it is because the jury will have essentially bought their story that they were all asleep at the time of Robert’s death, they didn’t see anything, and they don’t know what the heck happened that night.
No prosecutor is going to spend the time, effort and resources on a murder trial against these same defendants after a jury returns such a favorable verdict to the defendants in the obstruction/conspiracy case.
CJ Biggs–
I completely agree with that no murder charges will be brought, but if they are guilty of the murder, then the Sword of Damocles remains over their heads for the rest of their lives. If even one, including Michael Price, says anything over the next five or six decades of their lives about what happened that night, then murder charges can be brought. They will not be freed even if a “not quilty” verdict is rendered.
All three will have to remain quiet about a murder until the day they die. I know I wouldn’t want to live with that burden.
David
Charl, thanks for pointing out the March 3 post. That does help.
That’s giving them a conscience.
Pigs don’t care about slop.
No good transition to this post, so I’ll jump in. I reread Joe’s statement after spending time with Victor’s and then Dylan’s.
In Part II:
Page 20: “You have to buy this stuff.” Implying that one couldn’t make it up – but ‘you have to buy’ is an odd turn of phrase.
Page 24: “There was a lot of blood. It was ON THE MATTRESS” (emphasis added). On the mattress? Who is seeing the mattress through the sheets under Robert’s body.
Page 9: The knife could have been “in” Robert, implying a told him so, or implying a cop SAID he said so – “I don’t know.”
Page 10: He applied the towel to the wound because the 911 operator told Victor to have him do so. DOES NOT ACCOUNT FOR VICTOR TELLING OPERATOR HE ALREADY HAD A TOWEL PRESSED AGAINST HIM (recall operator’s long discussion about never removing a towel, just adding another when soaked through).
In Part I:
Page 31: Joe agrees that it’s odd that the gate wasn’t wide open (why the ‘intruder’ didn’t just open and walk out rather than scale it again).
Page 49: Joe is adamant that Victor did NOT tell him it was 11:43 while Victor was on the phone with the operator but instead later when on the sofa and the cops were listening to them talk (inconsistent with 911 tape).
Page 41 and Page 80: Joe says he was “kneeling” (not sitting) next to Robert (the latter page he says unequivocally that he was kneeling next to Robert “the whole time” from first seeing him to the EMT’s arrival.
Page 63: Joe says Victor was not supposed to get home “until very late” and he’d never told him that Robert was coming over – and perhaps STRANGEST/MOST INTERESTING – Page 63 – that Victor didn’t know until “we were making up the bed.” The implication was that Joe and Dylan were making up the bed. A slip as to the LATER event of making up the bed post-activities? Especially considering that Dylan and Joe see blood “under the sheet” (Dylan) and “on the mattress” (Joe).
Any reaction or just “reaching” by a frustrated woman who should be working?
BEA
Has there been any verification of Victor’s travel itinerary? When he was first scheduled to depart and arrive at airports? When he did in fact depart and arrive at airport?
How did he travel from the airport to home? When does he claim he arrived home?
What do others remember?
Is it possible Joseph and Dylan had already had their fun and games and killed Robert before Victor arrived home?
Then all the three plus would have had to do was complete the cleanup, set the scene, prepare the script and make the 991 call.
I don’t know if that’s possible given the time line and all. But that is my response to the transcript excerpts you have quoted above.
Hi Robert,
We only know from Joe’s statement that Victor was supposed to arrive home “very late”. I assume the prosecution has his actual itinerary.
Victor said he had a car pick him up around 5:30 and arrived home around 6:30. He spoke to Joe when he was in the car.
It’s been ‘cleared’ that Robert attended the CLE and that he visited RFA that night, and called Joe at 10:15 ish. So I don’t think there’s any way Robert was killed earlier.
Bea,
I got to thinking more about VZ’s behavior that night. VZ learned information about what his husband was up to not just once, but twice. As you noted, VZ spoke to Joe in the car ride back from Dulles. Don’t you think this would have been the time for Joe to say he was headed off to the gym? But instead, Joe said nothing, and VZ learns it from Dylan when he arrives home. Why didn’t Joe directly tell to VZ of his imminent plans? Then, the second time, VZ learns from Dylan again that Joe had booked a stay for Robert at their home that night. If VZ was already feeling threatened, these two instances could have added greater insecurity for VZ.
David
Hey David,
On page 5 of Part 2 of VZ’s statement, he says that while on the phone with Joe (in car from Dulles) that Joe says he’s about to leave work and go to the gym. I had to go back to read it – had an inkling but things are swirling in my head (who said what).
I suspect that Victor got the vibe on the phone that Joe wasn’t thrilled about VZ’s early arrival. Maybe he went to the gym to have a little conversation about that, but certainly there is a clear acknowledgment from Joe that Victor is ‘miffed’ (TV seems just the next thing to be pissed about).
I don’t doubt Victor is pissy about not being welcomed home with open arms, Dylan “knowing” more about Joe’s plans (Second Wife!!), left out of the Robert sleepover, etc. Why does he have to be the chef and water all the plants – he just got home from a business trip – must have entered his mind along with what had been planned between Joe and Dylan in his absence.
Does ANYONE exercise “in their room”? I don’t think Dylan’s room was that big a bedroom to start with.
David, are you suggesting that Victor . . . based on these greater insecurities . . . might have been the one who murdered Robert?
John,
I wouldn’t go that far, but from the transcripts, it does look like Victor could have set a tone for the evening that, at a minimum, made the house very tense, or at worst, allowed events to spin out of control.
David
Okay, one more addition. Price, Part I, page 10. In reference to the intruder leaving out the back door and then WHY the intruder didn’t OPEN the gate door instead of SCALING BACK OVER it to depart:
JP: Yeah. And I was sitting in the living room saying to (indiscernible) like why in the hell would you jump the fence? Why wouldn’t the person going out the back door go through the gate?
DET. N: Well, how do you know–
SGT W: Amen. Good thinking.
JP: Because I didn’t get to go out there but, you know, the gate was — as far as I could tell from where I was sitting, the gate (indiscernible) the gate was not ajar.
DET N: Does the gate normally close when you open it up by itself?
JP: No. No, it’s a really heavy metal gate.
DET N: So you have to, you have to close it and you –
JP: You’d still have to close it. Yeah.
_______________
If I recall where the sofa was, it’s one thing to see that the BACK DOOR latch is “vertical” (suspect to me it would be an early focus point) but would one (1) be able to SEE whether the GATE door was closed from where he was; and (2) even if he could, why assume ‘the intruder’ had scaled the gate instead of going through and closing it? Why would Joe pose the question/comment to the cops in the first place?
My theory is that in FICTION, one figures out what is (to use a fave JP word) “plausible”. The door “may” have been left unlocked by the comings-and-goings of grilling and spider-gazing, but not the gate. No one would buy that. So they crafted the fiction that the ‘intruder’ would have had to have scaled the gate to get in. Being focused on that Fictional Spidey-skilled Intruder, though, the defendants assumed he departed the same way BECAUSE THEY REALLY DIDN’T CARE IF AN INTRUDER HAD BEEN THERE. Pretty silly to imagine this departure route if one expected to tote a score of stolen goods. Did Joe think he going to throw the TV and computer over the top and hope for the best? Never crossed his mind because his mind never wondered or worried about the departure (other than the chimes) just how he got “in”.
It’s “plausible” that any intruder is a moron but not a logical conclusion – just when you’re memorizing stuff in a hurry, one might conclude “intruder-came-over-gate-went-back-over-gate” (and would explain no spidey fingerprints on the gate door handle).
BEA
I completely agree.
How did Joseph know for the record whether or not anything had been stolen prior to the conclusion of an investigation?
Joe points out how one has to make a conscious effort to close the door on account of its weight.
As you say:
If an intruder/burglar was planning a robbery, why would he place himself in a position where he had to throw the stolen goods over a fence?
As I say:
If an intruder/assassinator was plotting a murder,
why would he place himself in a position where he could not make haste his escape?
As others might say:
If an intruder/whomever was looking for “crime of opportunity,” why would he choose someplace where he had to jump up on the hood of a car in order to get up and over a fence both ways?
In order to make more noise? In order to leave clearer prints? So he would have to “face the music”? He was a lazy Black neighbor?
Unless, one is high on drugs, in need of a fix, desperate and stupid. But even drug abusing phlebotomists know there are better ways to rob the homO of a bro’.
I’ve followed this site and have been impressed by the insights and comments in the blogs. I am so angry with the MDP transcript that I’ve lost the larger, magnum issues at hand.
If I were asked to serve on this jury, I would tell the judge that this toxic detective interview sways my vote on any the counts. Again, I ‘ve read the entire blogs and documents and agree with many of the conclusions. The police conduct has obscured my considerations of the actual testimony and the real facts.
And I should add, I live in a gated McLean community steps from the Fairfax Substation. ( My partner and I need to flee hostile Virginia but crime in nonexistent here. Not even a car break-in ) Which is worse, Virginia’s fascist Attorney General or the Gulag DC detectives?
Virginia’s Ken Cuccinelli. I live in the real Old Dominion — south of Fredericksburg, and those DC cops were overly PC with these fools.
The DC police do not seem overly oppressive or competent to me. I do wish that they had Dyl to explain why Vic burned the steaks and/or watered the plants — those tasks should have been done by the maid-of-all-work, not by Ma’am just back from the Rockies.
The more I read these transcripts, the more I suspect a familiar trope in gay lit and film: the wayward party with an unwelcome yet pivotal straight guest. I was half-expecting the telephone game from Boys in the Band, but the sport here was far more cruel and dangerous.
Joe and Dyl’s partying was interrupted by Vic’s early return, but Ma’am did little to stop her boys from raping and killing Robert — whose preplanned visit provided the perfect vehicle for their drug-fueled gambit. Then, Vic covered for her husband and his footman, out of love and financial necessity. In this scenario, Dyl failed the poly because he willingly and eagerly assisted his liege.
Clio – the situ reminds me most of Joseph Moncure March’s “The Wild Party.” Though penned in the roaring 20’s, it has the same ingredients – jaded debauchery, toxic household tensions, sexual exploration – and the kind of inadvertent tragedy that can result when all three are mixed.
I find it hard to believe that anyone thinks the detectives were NOT homophobic. Switch “straight” and “gay” for “white” and “black” and you see what I mean. For decades people of both races found it unbelievable that black and whites could socialize or live together. This was an unnecessarily alienating way for the cops to steer the investigation and it’s no wonder they passed up so many key opportunities.
It reminds me of the criminal incompetence of the “sleuths” who handled Sal Mineo’s murder – focusing exclusively on a “gay” angle and thus allowing a common thug to go free to victimize many others. Just look again at these cops’ line of questioning, it’s so crude and predictable. Yes, they were frustrated, but doesn’t repeated failure suggest they should work smarter, not harder?
If I had been Dylan, this bigoted and adversarial approach would have clammed me up immediately.
CLIO
I can see it. Maybe that’s why I don’t like Larry Kramer.
As I’ve read some of the posts (“Strange that Joe had a straight friend”) or “apparent SM lifestyle” who would have guessed that the greatest golfer of our time, a sports icon, stunningly beautiful wife, lead a truly hurtful, self- distructive out of camera life. My point is all relationships have plausibility.
Agreed. I don’t give a second thought to straight men staying overnight with gay men, vice versa, and the same with lesbian/straight women. The problem isn’t that Joe is gay; the problem is that it appears he’s a sociopath. I’m going to do my best not to spend the night at any sociopath’s house.
Another question for the defense:
Assuming an intruder jumped the back fence and then made his way to the back door. He then tests the door to see if it’s unlocked. As he pushes the door open, he hears an audible alarm chime. What to do then? Press forward knowing that the entire house heard the chime, or slink back to the alley? Wouldn’t an audible chime scare away a run of the mill petty theif?
I would think so yes.
I hope that we aren’t treated to Natavia Lowery style ninjas and Radio Free Asia conspiracies as this goes forward, but I sort of expect it.
I highly doubt that the judge will allow the defense to offer up alternative theories of the case that aren’t supported by the evidence.
Recall that the judge essentially warned the prosecution to tread lightly on the sexual assualt angle of this case, even though there is plenty of evidence to support it. How could the judge then allow the defense to speculate wildly about free-radio Asian assassins when there is zero evidence?
With all this talk of having a straight man staying over, maybe Joe et al should have used the “straight panic defense.” A little play on the “gay panic defense” where a hate crime is defended by saying “I thought he was coming on to me.”
Kidding, of course.
CDINDC
How about the “Asian invader” defense?
I thought he was going to use Chinese water torture on me?
Oh! So that’s why there was all that water in the shower and on the patio.
I am kidding too. But I am not so sure about Joseph, Dylan and Victor.
An elf by any other name would smell as sweet to Joe as cherry blossoms in spring.
There is nothing to stop them saying “we thought in our confusion that was burglars but maybe it was Hollywood style assassins deftly hanging from pulleys attached to the gate and door frames executing a diabolical plot to rid Radio Free Asia of a powerful ally connected to the White House.” What is to stop them? I am bearing in mind that a good percentage of any jury are going to be typical in that they are (a) stupid and (b) gorged on popular culture myths about Washington DC intrigue and special ops murders.
Why do I see Tom Cruise fitting in here somewhere?
It’s a pity the Swann Street clan didn’t offer the Ninja tale. I think it would’ve been more plausible, evidently.
All:
Coming to this particular discussion late this week for various reasons, I note the following:
1. I don’t think this document answers the central question for which it was submitted – whether Dylan was “in custody” during his interrogation and thus whether his statement was voluntary. On the one hand, he is able and does leave the room to go to the restroom, but on the other hand on page 44 he asks whether he can leave and is told no that he cannot (in order to be available for lie detector). One could interpret that as meaning, you, Dylan, volunteered for the lie detector and no we need you to be available on short notice for that, but another interpretation is “no you cannot leave.” That may suggest that what follows after that is not admissible. I readily admit I don’t know the answer and that my own views of how and when alleged criminals should receive the warning colors my perspective, but I am concerned that there is a decent argument (the best I have seen yet) for claiming that at that point Dylan should have been Mirandized.
2. Going to one of the Editors’ central questions, and while I don’t agree with Ben’s “minority treatment” diatribe, I do think that the MPD questioning is homophobic. When the MPD uses the term “homosexual” I for one hear a slur. Post-1990 usage at least would suggest using the term gay. Call me fussy if you will, but the transcript grated on me, and while I have little sympathy for Dylan, I am turned off big time. I know this was an interrogation, but I don’t see a good cop here who could have at least played off of this and been sympathetic and tried to elicit useful information.
3. I also agree that whether it was homophobic or not, the interrogation clearly was closed-minded and left many opportunities during the crucial early hours on the cutting room floor. Too bad. I mean come on, “no straight guy would visit three gay guys and spend the night???” How 19th Century. And how incompetent.
Respectfully,
Meto
Long past the days of Civil Rights amendments, there were people — including liberal people and even Black people, still using the word “Negro.”
The United States Census is still using it today.
Henry Louis Gates thinks it not unlikely that Blacks will return to the term by “choice.”
We now call them Historically “Black” Colleges, but they are still financed by the United “Negro” College Fund. And one cannot alter the fact that the NAACP continues to be National Association for the Advancement of “Colored” People.
We now call people like my polio afflicted father and my schizophrenic cousin “disabled.” But we still have “handicapped” access and the National Alliance for the “Mentally Ill.”
Fortunately, most uneducated people know to look beyond the words of another to that other’s intent. It is the educated one’s who seem not to.
There are as many — if not more — people who use the right words who mean one harm as there are those who use the wrong ones who do not.
The Weimar Germans stopped using the word
“kike” and look what happened. We would have been better off had they continued to do so. Then
we might not have been lulled into a complacency
which cost us not 6 million dollars but people.
Furthermore, “homosexual” is a clinical term still used in science, medicine and social science. Gay is an identity term used in politics, journalism and common parlance.
Scientific researchers do not ask whether biology or the environment cause one to be “Gay.” They ask about what causes one to be “homosexual” — unless they are politicians first and scientists second.
Otherwise, we would be investigating scientific
causation for identity which is a proper subject for political scientists, sociologists or psychologists.
I should not think that Joseph and Dylan called Robert a dirty “Chink breeder” when they invited him for dinner. Though who knows what they called him as they tortured and killed him.
But forced to choose between impoliteness and dinner and politeness and death, I would like to think that I know which Robert would have chosen.
Not all members of law enforcement agencies have received proper sensitivity training and politically correct elocution lessons.
Yes. The police may have been latent or blatant homophobes. But this does not mean that even members of the GLLU would not have asked some or all of the same questions.
And in the same way.
Indeed, I think it would have been even far less effective for the police to have inquired: “modern
social science suggests that there are no palpable differences between Gays and Straights, so may we presume that Robert and your differing — if we may call it that — sexual orientations played no role in your intercourse that evening”?
I am Gay. Most of my friends are Straight. When
I heard about the murder, my question was not about the appropriateness of Robert’s spending the night with three Gay so-called friends.
But upon learning that Joseph and Robert were classmates at William and Mary and that Robert was Straight and Joseph was Gay, I immediately went to my unrequited love theory which has since seemed to have gained a lot of play.
If Joe was not Gay and Robert Straight: whatever the motive might have been, unrequited love could not have been it — if indeed it was.
The idea of conquest is as old as humankind. As his-and-hers-story records, it is particularly popular to conquer those unlike oneself.
You know Greeks v Romans. Egyptians v Jews. Christians v Muslims. Asians v Europoeans. Europoeans v Asians. Straights v Gays. Gays v Straights. Gay Europeans v Straight Asians.
Not all those who fail to use politically correct language are racists, sexists, ablists, ageists and homophobes. Though I am sure it makes many simple-minded people feel better to think so.
But that can become a problem whether one is attempting to conduct a serious investigation or even hold an honest and intelligent conversation.
Unfortunately, not everyone can be as sophisticated as you. It is a pity, but it is true.
Just starting to look at this website for a few weeks and far from reading all but I can’t help but wonder about the shower area as being where this might have happened. I find it curious that Joe was working on it earlier in the evening,its location from the possible weapon. Joe and robert seen in the bathroom, maybe to show him the work done or how to operate it, a pass made a struggle and the knife in the area across the hall lack of blood in bedroom where body was found. Was the drain checked for evidence. All roommates in room looking as if showered. As to how it would have escalated to a murder I am at a loss but drug use was in play.
Yea, big supporter, here, of the “stabbed in the shower” theory. I base my belief on 1) lack of blood evidence, and 2) angle of stab wounds (seemingly from above the head and over the shoulder, i.e., Robert was supine and at an angle in which someone could be behind and over him; a bathtub being a perfect location for that).
The shower makes sense for all sorts of reasons. I wouldn’t be surprised, too, if with both Joe and Dylan saying that the blood “went under him” and “under the sheets” and “on the mattress” during their statements, that perhaps the bed was stripped a second time.
Don’t know, though, but it sure seems to me that with all that knowledge of “under” and mattress/sheet info, that likely it took both Joe and Dylan to get him into that position. Remember that he looked “placed” there with the pillow having but the one indentation of Robert’s head, no bedding out of place – if ONE person put him there, wouldn’t it have been a messier scene, some unwanted movement, perhaps? Or perhaps that was the reason for the need for a ‘do-over’ when there were two bodies (or more, with a nod to those who think Victor was fully involved) to more easily move Robert into that place.
YEA/CDINDC
I would not be one quick to “throw water” on the “they killed him in the shower” idea.
BEA
I think that a shower killing might indeed fit well with the stripping of the bed and the unique body positioning scenario.
General question for all – despite the 3rd floor shower’s “issues” do you get the sense that Joe and Victor both showered there instead of on the second floor? It’s not clear from the statements – Joe had ‘already showered’ when Victor arrived back from the gym, and Dylan was in the shower, or vice versa, and then Victor showered – made me wonder if it was sequential use of the 2nd floor shower.
In their separate statements, at least two of the three – and often all three – seem incredibly intent on establishing the following “facts” for the investigators:
• We’re good people. Sweat and not violent. Dear friends of Robert and Cathy.
• We know our fellow housemates to be absolutely not guilty.
• The “intruder” could have jumped off a car to scale our fence.
• The back door was likely open. Indeed, “ajar.” We heard the chimes.
• The obvious intent of the “intruder” was to rob our house.
• Victor screamed.
• Joe touched the knife and moved it.
• Joe was always yelling for an ambulance.
I imagine Victor rallying them all at a critical point before the authorities arrived, providing everyone a common script, storyboard and talking points (as was his occupation). Doing so, while still encouraging everyone to otherwise stick faithfully to the ordinary facts of most of their early evening. Or perhaps it was just as likely that Joseph commanded this scripting.
If their stories were not scripted by Victor or Joe as such, then one can only conclude that a doped up brother Michael was the one who prowled and murdered in their house that night.
John,
I agree with 90 percent except the “we know our fellow housemates to be absolutely not quilty.” While Joe and Victor were certainly adamant they neither they nor Dylan committed the murder, Dylan was far less commitall on the subject. He said he didn’t believe Joe or Victor did it but could not say because he was asleep.
David
I agree David. I was noting “facts” that “at least two of the three – and often all three – seem incredibly intent on establishing.” Dylan indeed seemed to overlook that particular talking point.
Notably, Victor/Joe’s story line did not, for the most part, seem to include the following salient and often repeated talking points:
• We really didn’t know for certain if the “intruder” was still hiding somewhere in the house (e.g., perhaps, in Sarah’s basement apartment).
• We each searched for a knife, baseball bat, two-foot-long dildo or other such weapons to protect ourselves.
• We were all afraid to go to the first floor until the authorities arrived.
• We aggressively cross examined each other about where everyone was during the past half hour, and what everyone knew.
• We worried that the “intruder” might return again to get one of us.
• We developed a plan about what we would collectively do if the “intruder” unexpectedly returned.
• We discussed a back-up escape plan to jump out of a particular window if the “intruder” returned up the stairs.
• We all cast blame at each other, for not locking the back door, providing keys to relatives and contractors, etc.
• We established who had the greatest medical expertise to tend to Robert.
• We paid great attention to Robert’s status. Constantly checking for signs of a pulse, a breath, any movement.
• We all furiously debated how best to try to save Robert’s life.
• We all concluded Robert was dead at about xx.xx hour.
You know what Robert, I’ve been ignoring you because it’s sort of obvious that you have some sort of imbalance (complete with the unique access to and special understanding of G-men!) that makes you type 3,000 words a day on this site, but you are starting to annoy me.
There was no “Asian sadomasochistic pornography” in the inventory and that last bit about (I assume) Tiger Woods is just deranged.
I thought it was possible to delve into the various possibilities about what happened that night without devolving into what amounts insinuations based solely on ugly stereotypes. Unfortunately, your presence as a poster here proves that that apparently simply can not be the case. Sadly, the entire level and tone of our discourse is dragged down to one of the lowest denominators which seems to be your own personal prurient interests.
Not only that you are boring the crap out of me.
Hear, hear! My post office mail box needs dusting.
Do not confuse this Benjamin Franklin with me– although I agree with the sentiments instantly expressed by the imposter and AZ.
Editors?
Mommy!
Cry baby.
Cute kitty, Ban.
True. The other BF is an imposter. Adopt another Founder’s name whoever you are.
Bunch of motions and orders hit the clerk’s office today. It’s going to be a busy week.
Thomas Jefferson must be the imposter: he was always such a two-faced witch, talking smack about George Washington behind George’s back.
That legal frenzy, though, Craig, is more than enough to drive all of us out of our Lunesta-inspired comas, even if Midol remains my favorite doll! Bring it on!
ANNAZED
The editors stated that the only video confiscated by the police was of the sadomasochistic variety with an Asian character in bondage. They posted a photograph on the site and sought comment.
My “Thais that bind” comment was in response to those of another poster and were intended to be funny. I am sorry if they fell flat.
Calling me “deranged” is ad hominem attack, but coming from you that’s not surprising.
I am sorry if I bore you. Fortunately that does not seem to be the case with other bloggers.
In any case, I will try to be briefer with my comments in the future.
I am not into stereotypes, I don’t believe in them, I don’t buy into them, I know that other people do and I do research on them.
I am also a human rights activist who has participated in virtually every major and many minor social justice movements during the past 50 years.
I don’t know where you’ve been, but I bet I know where you haven’t been. MOW? SDS? NAACP? NOW? UFW? AIM? DIA? NGLTF? Stonewall?
That’s where I’ve been.
Girl, I quit reading Robert’s post more than a week ago.