Victor Zaborsky’s MPD Interview Transcript
In contrast to the sometimes meandering interview of his domestic partner, Joe Price, Victor Zaborsky seemed to choose his words far more carefully as he spoke to DC MPD detectives on the night of Robert’s murder. Evidently.
Last summer in Paul Duggan’s Washington Post series we got to listen to Zaborsky’s first hand account of the discovery of the crime via the 911 call he placed.
In those six minutes, some of his language seemed to stand out. Right at the start of the call he told the dispatcher, “…we’ve had someone (unintelligible) in our house evidently, and they stabbed somebody…”
In the hours that followed at the Violent Crimes Branch, Zaborsky would fall back on that qualifying word again, and again:
“And evidently he (Price) called the cable or the dish, satellite people, and he had them reinstate those channels (so they could watch Project Runway).”
-then moments later-
“Joe went downstairs probably about ten minutes later, or something like that, and evidently Robert had come and Dylan had gotten the door, and so they stayed down there”
American Heritage Dictionary defines “evidently” as, “According to the evidence available.” An ironic choice of words since it was available evidence that the detectives were also hoping to operate with.
More pull quotes:
“Now it’s probably only like 5 minutes after 11, 7 minutes after 11.
“And then we woke up. I woke up to screams.”
“…that’s why the only thing I can think of it was an attempted burglary.”
“…some rings and some watches. I mean, that’s what my guess is what the person would have been after is something very easy to stuff into a pocket.”
Inside these 43 pages are some big and small details of Robert’s last hour, and also perhaps some clues to the dynamics of the defendants’ household and relationships. A look at one possible catalyst comes tomorrow and the Ward transcript goes up on Wednesday.
The government released these transcripts to counter defense team claims that the three housemates were held against their will and that their Miranda rights were violated. Price’s statement seemed to refute that, and so, evidently, does Zaborsky’s. “I am here voluntarily,” he told detectives.
Let’s give the MPD credit for one thing; they made it easier for Assistant US Attorney Glenn Kirschner to brush back Tom Connolly’s motion to suppress these statements by getting Zaborsky on the record, evidently.
–posted by Craig
Notes: After the jump, Zaborsky’s interviews follow in two parts, the first concluding at 4:30am and it’s unclear with the second. Personal information redacts are ours.
Zaborsky MPD Interview Part II
Zaborsky
I wish that MPD had asked Joe and Victor to recall some detail of that episode of Project Runway… like who won the challenge. Something to establish whether both were really in bed watching the end of the episode.
[In fact, it was a pretty memorable episode. Aug. 2, 2006, was the episode in season 3 where Keith got kicked out because he had design books and because he went AWOL for a while.]
So do I, it would have been so easy, and now it’s too late.
Victor’s statement comes across as more credible than Joe’s. Victor is more straightforward and he doesn’t pepper his statement with all sorts of ass-covering weasel words like Joe did.
As to the substance of Victor’s statement, it is very strange that neither Victor nor Joe showed any concern for whether Dylan was safe. Think about it: According to their own story, they find Robert murdered, by an intruder, on the same floor where Dylan is sleeping, but they don’t immediately go check to make sure Dylan’s okay? That makes no sense.
True! I found this shocking: surely they couldve called to Dylan and asked, if they were too scared to go into his room (being afraid an intruder was there). I find their lack of concern a major indicator to ‘an agreed upon tale’.
Agree as well.
Not only is the lack of concern for Dylan at the scene odd, Joe’s overt lack of concern for Dylan (and mostly only Dylan) during questioning seems odd. Why worry about how Dylan’s doing and not Victor unless Dylan knows more?
Bea and CJ, one more thing: What is your take on the knife? If they (evidently) could get rid of the original knife, why swop it for a fake one? Surely, this puts them under more suspicion. A missing knife would tie in neatly with the phantom intruder. Also, why did they leave the set where original came from – it blatantly points to suspect behaviour. Negligence or not enough time or no means to do so or underestimating others’ intelligence?
Hi Charl,
I know you directed this question to Bea and CJ, but I thought I’d contribute my thoughts on “the set.” I’ve always thought the knife from the set was in rotation in the kitchen and they simply forgot the box and matching piece was in Dylan’s closet.
I have a different sense of the knife than CD, but FWIW, I think that Dylan’s knife set, stored in Dylan’s closet, was located with all the sex toys and so when it came time to stab Robert (and for whatever reason) they used it. They were high, and they knew it was sharp – but at some point they realized that it wasn’t at all smart to have done so. Possibly, even, Victor intervened on this (depending on how high they were, but I doubt it since he forgets during the 911 call and says the intruder may have left with the knife).
WHY on EARTH did they not dispose of the entire set I don’t know – maybe they were down to how much Michael/whomever could carry and making the hard decisions. Maybe Joe/Victor didn’t know there would be such a clear ‘spot’ for the knife. But these are guys who WIPED blood on a knife and used one with a different sized blade – clearly despite being a lawyer, Joe does not keep up with the many cop shows on television, both dramas and ‘real life’.
I think Joe had them on a tight schedule after the death but before the 911 call and there was simply not enough time since Victor screamed – possibly it took Michael a while to arrive, or maybe Joe himself took a cab to a distant dumpster. Who knows. But it’s another screw up I’m grateful for.
What’s funny to me is that, while not disposing of the set was an idiot move, swapping knives might have actually benefited them. Say they used Dylan’s knife impulsively, coming to their senses after that it was the wrong knife to use. By planting the knife from their kitchen, it forestalls a search for the ‘real’ knife. I’m sure initially the police assumed it was the murder weapon, and the medical examiners report came days later. If Ward’s knife was dropped in a garbage can, it’d be long gone by then. They needed a knife of some kind, so they could ‘know’ he was stabbed.
Random thought – say they wanted to dispose of the Ward knife quickly. What about dropping it down the drain on the patio? The affidavit states that the cover was loose, and the cadaver dogs indicated blood.
CD, you were more than welcome to comment.
CD, Bea and Jeff – thanks, your comments help to rationalize the actions. I agree – I also keep all boxes and remaining sets of utensils in use.
It did benefit them to get rid of the murder weapon but backfired in the end.
Perhaps a maneuvre from Truth herself to stir suspicion – she wants loose!!
The cockamamie story about Joe’s attempts to fix the broken shower makes a whole lot more sense when Victor explains it. Joe was incredibly inarticulate with the police that night.
They can’t possibly have made up the broken shower story, right? It’s too absurd, and unlike the intruder story, it doesn’t serve any clear purpose.
As FCH suggested, maybe Joe’s inarticulate statement was a result of coming down from a drug.
Victor reverses the order of the screams and the chime (or did Joe?). Was the chime the “intruder” coming or going?
Victor didn’t know Robert was coming over until he saw Dylan making the bed, after dinner! What else wasn’t Joe telling him?
Has the story about Alec riding his bike been corroborated by Alec’s mom? Does she recall Victor rushing off the phone to put out the grill fire?
What’s with the question about body odor?
I think the body odor question goes to the idea that someone else was maybe already there. Was Michael there and in Dylan’s room before any of this stuff even happened? Is that possible?
Body odor — with all of the showering — pre and post murder, even with a busted shower, who could be stinky? Whoever had BO, though, should have used Secret — “strong enough for a man but made for a woman!”
I think the police asked about the body odor because they were on to something, that there was somebody else in the house…my guess is there WAS another person or persons there in DWard’s room when VZaborsky got home and said he heard DWard exercising in is room — maybe MPrice and/or JPrice (maybe even LHinton).
VZaborsky was told that JPrice was at the gym but perhaps he was in DWard’s room…and when VZ went to look for JP at the gym, JPrice showered to get rid of any body odor from “exercising” in DW’s room. My guess is there was a party (including drugs and sex) in DW’s room.
And, my guess is that the whole idea to watch Project Runway was just to get VZ back upstairs so the party could continue. All the craziness with the spider, the leaking pipe sounds like somebody high on drugs trying to stay focused. I think after JP went to bed, the partiers in DW’s room were so high that things go out of hand and RW was then sexually assaulted. I think the grunting heard by VZ was the partiers cleaning up the mess they created…and when they heard noise from the master bedroom on the 3rd floor, the partiers panicked and one (or more) of the partiers ran out of the house with the knife and other evidence they could grab.
Maybe this is how Lisa (I think that’s here name) ended up with JP’s wallet, maybe JP left it in DW’s room or gave it to one of the partiers (MP?) to get money out if they wanted to get more drugs. Didn’t Lisa and MP show up at the police station the next morning to return JP’s wallet — maybe MP had it the night before and forgot to give it back to JP or he had to retrieve it from one of the partiers (intruders?) for JP. I think this is why the police were asked the question about the body odor.
I think VZ knew that DW wasn’t exercising but was entertaining guests (or intruders) but didn’t want to see who the guests were — he’s in total denial. I also finally listened to VZ’s 911 call — initially he refers to the “intruder(s)” as “the person” then later he refers to the “inruders(s)” as “they,” then finally he refers to the intruder as “he”. Whole thing is just weird.
I think that you may be on to something with this scenario although I would perhaps disagree that JP went to bed. What would Lisa’s involvement be here? Could SHE have been in DW’s room? Anyone aware of those dynamics?
Eds would it be possible to do a “ladies in the wings” post on Lisa and Sarah?
Could it be “exercising” (at least “in my room”) is the Swann code word for sex drugs and rock n roll (or subgroup thereof)? After a business trip, the notion that Victor goes to the gym yet does not spend much time there strongly suggests that he was looking for Joe rather than tending to his body. I think Joe was meeting Michael or some other drug source – the class Michael missed was scheduled from 5:00-9:15 (I believe).
Both Joe and Victor speculate to the police that the intruder must have used their car as a launching pad to get over the back fence. This, to me, is the strongest indicator that they developed their story before the 911 call. I just don’t buy that they both, independently, would come up with that theory under questioning unless they’d thought out (together) the answer to that inevitable question.
Yes Friend, that lept out at me too; it’s more of a construct than a speculation, like stage directions.
AND now Dylan’s transcript shows that he came up with the same theory. What an amazing coincidence.
Victor’s actions that night is consistent with those of any angry spouse: to bed shortly after dinner, not bothering to come down to greet a guest, and the turn-tv-off-I’m-trying-to-sleep vibe that Joe reported. It seems like Victor was pissed that Robert was coming over. Hmm.
Thanks, editors, for posting this — I was looking forward to it!!
My initial thoughts:
Victor changed his story between the first and second interview. In the first interview he was vague about some of the details; by the second retelling, he’d solidified his recollection of details.
The following theory jumped into my mind after reading this today:
Victor NEVER SAW ROBERT ARRIVE.
Is it possible (Dylan’s door was closed) Robert had arrived earlier and was incapacitated and abused in Dylan’s room? Joe ran interference while Victor went about his Return-From-A-Business-Trip activities, went to bed, then Joe said, “Oh, by the way, Robert is spending the night.”
Victor’s statements really make me think he was completely in the dark that night. He’s the only one who lost his cool (i.e. screaming) which is verified by the neighbors.
The timeline of Robert’s murder has always bothered me. I really wonder if it’s possible in any sort of way that Robert was ALREADY THERE when Victor arrived home?
It has been confirmed that Robert attended a CLE and left the metro with a colleague around 9:30. He then went to RFA to meet the night staff . The timeline that was pieced together and their saying he arrived around 10:30 basically match.
The way he described the hand was part of the staged Shakespear death sketch from the New Yorker, no? It all seems to mean something to them, but what?
The timeline has always seemed too short to me. Didn’t Robert allegedly arrive shortly before 11 PM, and Victor’s scream was heard by a neighbor during the 11 o’clock news (let’s be generous and say shortly before 11:30 pm). That means Robert was killed approximately a half hour after arriving. That seems too short a period of time for everything to have happened, doesn’t it?
Robert arrived at 10:30ish. The scream was heard “during the broadcast” which ended not at 11:30 but 11:35. They had about an hour to kill him and cover up before Victor screamed before the end of the broadcast.
What evidence do you have that it was Victor who screamed? Besides the perp’s own self-serving statements?
No hard evidence, of course, just that both Joe and Victor made the same statement (not that that counts for much) but it rang true. That, and there’s not a shred of evidence that it came from someone else.
So Bea, you agree with me then. There’s not a shred of evidence concerning “who” screamed. Unless you put a lot of stock in the perp’s statements. I certainly don’t!
Bea and John Grisham,
On the issue of the scream and who it belongs to, I think the chronology of the investigation is important here.
The statements came first and both Joe and Victor said that he screamed and immediately called 911. At that point they were unaware that a neighbor would be able to timestamp the scream between 11:00 and 11:34 pm. This information came after their statements.
If they knew a neighbor heard the scream, and it didn’t agree with their timeline, they could have changed it to say the scream came earlier in the evening, but they didn’t.
This makes me inclined to believe they are telling the truth about the scream — that it was Victor’s upon discovering the body.
David
I’m not convinced by your logic David. It is inconceivable that first, any of the perps would admit to delaying in calling 911. And second, it is equally inconceivable that they would identify anyone else but one of themselves as the screamer.
John,
But if they knew that someone would timestamp the scream, I don’t think they would have been so lazy to let that slide and still say Victor screamed and immediately called 911, which would be disproven by the timestamp on the scream and time of the 911 call.
David
CJ: I don’t think it would take much time at all to stab someone. The cleaning up afterward would be the time consuming thing.
That said, I don’t think they really had much chit chat over a refreshing H2O around the kitchen counter at 10:30.
I would guess Robert was pretty immediately attacked.
Do we know the person with whom Robert left the Metro?
He went to the CLE with the General Counsel for Radio Free Europe (a similar position to his new position) if I recall correctly, and the man confirmed this, along with having a sandwich and walking to the Metro.
I agree with most comments. Additional thoughts: Joe ruled the household, what with telling everyone to keep their doors closed about the A/C, “handling” the shower – it’s almost like an old-fashioned man with two wives. Between the “11:43” (which Victor confirms Joe asked for), the car-as-launching-pad, it is obvious that a story was concocted and regurgitated. Even “we hear our neighbor’s baby crying” tells me that Victor’s screaming was likely the impetus for calling the cops.
But what bothers me, and I’m curious others think, is that if you assume Joe was NOT with Victor (my assumption) and the talk of hearing screams and then hesitating at the doorway AND you insert his comment about why Dylan didn’t come out (“I would have stayed put if I had been alone – I was petrified”), is it possible that Victor stayed in his room alone for a considerable time before venturing downstairs?
There’s that nugget of truth thing, along with a screwed up timeline, but I can picture Victor staying put wondering what is going on downstairs. And he’s ‘been there’ before with any night Joe stays with Dylan – some weird noises in all likelihood that he’s had to ignore. But this time did he hear distress? Pain that was more than ‘wanted’ pain? Did he become fearful or had he finally had enough and was going downstairs to knock it off because (after all) the neighbors could hear (baby cries)?
My gut is that he was miffed from the get-go, at first assumed that the boys were ‘playing’ as they often did, which likely miffed him more (knowing he wasn’t supposed to be there). But then he wonders about Robert’s presence – did Robert hear Joe and Dylan and walk in on them? At least, did Victor wonder this?
All this is more conjecture about the turn of events but if Victor was ‘in the dark’ about the ‘plan’ (and I think he was), how long did he stay on the third floor contemplating? Sadly, I am guessing he’s stood in that doorway many times wondering.
I think that most of the ‘work’ had been done by the time he got his nerve up to go downstairs and then scream his head off.
Final random thought: Victor talked to Joe on the phone when he arrived (early) and Joe said he was going to the gym – when Victor gets home, Dylan tells Victor that Joe’s at the gym. Victor goes to the gym but doesn’t stay long yet makes clear that he didn’t see Joe there. Victor wasn’t gone long enough for much of a work out so he really was trying to find Joe. Possibly they just missed each other, but too the ‘gym’ was a cover story – Joe was off with Michael getting the evening’s drugs? I know from experience that young BigLaw partners are rarely ‘at the gym’ at 6:30 unless they expect to go back to work – not the case. To me, this suggests that Joe did have plans that night – possibly just with Dylan until Robert’s arrival, but that Victor calling from the airport was a big interruption. And why was Victor miffed? Did he figure out that he’d interrupted some serious plans? We all get that sense of things, and as CJ said, his actions are that of ‘angry spouse’.
I recognize I’m a Victor apologist here and I simply don’t understand why he doesn’t tell what he knows. Because he does know a lot.
Well, Victor was angry and very tired. He arrived early from Denver only to find Joe and Dyl not overly concerned whether he was there or not. The steak dinner was partially ruined, and he had just missed great moments in his son’s life, having outsourced all child care to Kim. He went to find Joe at the gym yet did not find him there, and he really never got a moment alone with his husband until Project Runway came on. Most revealingly, he finds out that Robert’s “coming over” via Dylan and NOT from Mr. Price, the love of his life. And, there was his nasal drip AND Joe’s cheapness in regard to the cable AND the stress from work AND the crappy AC and shower AND the plants that needed watering — given all of that, who wouldn’t be a bit bitchy that evening? “Oh, Robert’s coming over,” indeed!
Agree.
I assume there would be records of Joe re-upping for particular cable stations right before or right after 11 pm – I’d check to make sure that wasn’t earlier, allowing more time to be totally busy with Robert. My guess is that they’ve stuck with the ‘facts’ as much as possible and Joe did get the cable re-upped but that it was during the watering-fest, and that any discussion was about Victor not finding Bravo right away. If Joe was with Victor at 11ish, then I’m guessing Robert was already dead or had already (at least) been assaulted and part of the visit was to make sure Victor was tucked in for the night.
What a life, Victor – to put up with a full-time mistress (it was NOT a threeway love affair) AND seeing your love’s alt dot com ad trolling for sex partners. To bust his butt to catch an earlier flight and be dismissed (AND have to cook dinner) must’ve felt so so good. Do they have doormats in prison?
Do they have doormats in prison?
They will now.
BEA
What’s the big deal about the cable? Was Victor being so demanding about the whole thing because he thought that he should at least be provided with some entertainment to occupy him while Joe and Dylan were entertaining themselves?
Did Joe get”right on it” for the similar reason that he wanted to placate Victor by keeping Victor occupied while Dylan and Joe were having their fun and games?
Though I don’t doubt the cable thing happened, I have to admit that there were a lot of irregular events that evening aside from the murder: 1) a shower overflow;
2) a grill fire; 3) a TV cable renewal; 4) a gate alarm off.
Then there are the ancillary coincidences: 1) Sarah gone for the evening; 2) Victor arrives home early; 3) Michael misses his first class; 4) its Robert’s first sleepover.
Then there are some counterintuitive personal interactions: 1) Dylan goes down to greet Robert with whom Dylan is not unacquainted but whom is more Joseph’s guest than that of Dylan; 2) regardless of Victor’s arrival time and its relationship to Robert’s presence, it would appear that Victor was unaware of “the visit” of Robert with whom Victor is more than unacquainted.
Then are some logistical problems which may have but need not have anything to do with the murder: 1) Joseph is at the gym, Joseph’s not at the gym; 2) Joseph is on the patio with Dylan and Victor, Victor is not on the patio with Joseph and Dylan;
3) Joseph is in the kitchen with Robert and Dylan, Joseph is not in the kitchen with Robert and Dylan; 4) Dylan is in the kitchen with Robert and Joseph, Dylan is not in the kitchen with Robert and Joseph;
4) Joseph is in the playroom with Dylan in the early evening, Joseph is not in the playroom with Dylan in the early evening;
5) Joseph is in the bedroom with Victor in the late evening, Joseph is not in the bedroom with Victor in the late evening.
Finally, there are issues of social distance.
1) Joseph and Robert are classmate friends,
Joseph and Robert are best friends, Joseph and Robert are good but not best friends,
Joseph is Robert’s best Gay friend and Robert is Joseph’s best Straight friend, unbeknownst to Straight Robert he is Gay Joseph’s unrequited love;
2) Joseph and Victor are happily partnered, Joseph and Victor are unhappily partnered;
3) Joseph and Dylan are no more than playmates and everybody knows it, Joseph and Dylan are no more than playmates but Dylan doesn’t know it;
4) Joseph and Dylan are more than playmates and Victor knows it, Joseph and Dylan are more than playmates and Victor doesn’t know it;
4) Victor fully accepts Dylan’s presence in the lives and home of Victor and Joseph, Victor does not fully accept Dylan’s presence in the lives and home of Victor and Joseph;
5) Dylan thinks that Victor fully accepts him in the lives and home of Victor and Joseph and he’s wrong, Dylan does not think that Victor fully accepts Dylan in the lives and home of Victor and Joseph and he’s right;
6) Robert is no more than simply a friend to Victor through Joseph, Robert is more than simply a friend to Victor through Joseph;
7) Dylan is barely acquainted with Robert, Dylan is more than barely acquainted with Robert;
8) Joseph and Michael have a close relationship which Joseph totally controls, Joseph and Michael have a close relationship which Joseph does not totally control;
9) Michael and Louis are happily partnered, Michael and Louis are something other than happily partnered;
10) Sarah is a fag hag to Joseph and/or Victor and/or Dylan, Sarah is not a fag hag to Joseph and/or Victor and/or Dylan.
11) Dylan is aware of Joseph’s unrequited love for Robert and has been aware of same for a very long time, Dylan is aware of Joseph’s unrequited love for Robert but has not been aware of same for a very long time;
12) Victor is aware of Joseph’s unrequited love for Robert and has been aware of same for a very long time, Victor is aware of Joseph’s unrequited love for Robert but has not been aware of same for a very long time;
13) Dylan thinks that whatever may have been the nature of Joseph’s unrequited love for Robert in the past it is now only sexual and he’s right, Dylan thinks that whatever may have been the nature of Joseph’s unrequited love for Robert in the past it is now only sexual and he’s wrong;
14) Victor does not feel threatened by Joseph’s unrequited love for Robert which he believes to be nothing more than a romantic fantasy for Joseph, Victor does feel threatened by Joseph’s unrequited love for Robert which he believes to be something more than a romantic fantasy for Joseph;
15) Victor does not feel threatened by Joseph’s unrequited love for Robert which he believes to be nothing more than a sexual fantasy for Joseph, Victor does feel threatened by Joseph’s unrequited love for Robert which he believes to be more than a sexual fanstasy for Joseph;
16) Dylan does not feel threatened by Joseph’s feelings for Robert and has no reason to be, Dylan does feel threatened by Joseph’s feelings for Robert and has reason to be;
17) Joseph thinks that Robert could be interested in him on more than a friendship basis under the right circumstances and he’s wrong, Joseph does not think that Robert could be interested in him on more than a friendship basis under any circumstances and he’s right;
18) Kathy and Robert should have been suspicious of Joseph, Kathy and Robert had no reason to be suspicious of Joseph.
Where did the fun and games start and where did they end? What if anything took place in the guest room where Robert was staying? What if anything took place in Dylan’s room which many toys were found?
Was Robert ever taken into the bathroom for a shower? Was Robert ever taken onto the patio for any reason?
BEA
It is my belief that Victor normally went to sleep on those nights when Joseph informed him that Joe and Dylan would be engaging in the fun and games where Victor was never a a participant or even welcome. I can even imagine Victor taking a sedative to put it out of his mind as best he could.
You ask: “did Robert hear Joe and Dylan and walk in on them.” Personally, I think that this is doubtful. I mean why would a Straight Robert get up and out of bed to check what might have been going on between Gays Joe and Dylan in where, Dylan’s room? Doesn’t make sense to me.
But what your question got me to thinking is whether Victor heard Joe and Dylan going into Robert’s room (the guest bedroom)?
And if so, what did he do? How did he handle the situation or what he thought the situation to be?
Did Victor do anything? How long did he wait before he addressed what he might have thought to be a problem as he saw it?
Was he lying awake or standing by his bedroom door wondering what and figuring out what to do?
When did he run downstairs? What led him to do so? What was the breaking point so to speak?
My curiosity was piqued by what somebody else suggested about the space limitations at Swann Street for the purposes of BDSM activities.
The suggestion had been made that possibly they went to a Lee Street location with which I don’t recall hearing about before in this blog.
I was wondering about the possibility that on other occasions Joe and Dylan might have gone to Results or the Crew Club in search of a third?
Sort of like Joe’s soliciting an Asian go-go boy at Secrets. And if it was like Joe’s going to pick up a go-go boy, is there anybody out there who has been so propostioned by Joe and/or Dylan?
Joe and Victor have much different descriptions of the blood found on Robert’s body: Victor says he only saw a little blood, which is totally inconsistent with Joe’s two “blood everywhere” comments. That leads me to speculate that Dylan was not a party to the murder, and only a party to the coverup. Perhaps Victor never saw all of the blood that Joe saw when Robert was stabbed, and Joe let the “blood everywhere” comments slip subconsciously. Yes, at one point there was blood everywhere, but not after Robert’s body was “found” on the bed. Perhaps the body was cleaned on the patio by Joe and Dylan, and the patio was cleaned thereafter with bleach and water, thus the need for a story about a wet patio.
Q: Someone was murdered in your home – what do you remember?
A: Well, the most important thing you should know about that night is that I watered the plants on the patio, which is why there might be water on the patio. Then I burned the steaks. Then I went to bed, heard screams, and found a body downstairs. (Oops, forgot to mention we doused the grill with water – note to self, mention the fire and grill dousing next time I’m asked about the murder….).
I’ve been grilling steaks for 20 years, and I’ve had some major flare ups due to distractions. Not once have I ever used a hose to dose a grill fire. You move the steaks, close the lid, and let it burn out. Or, you move the steaks, leave the lid open, and let it burn out. Has anyone ever used a hose or large quantities of water to put out a bbq fire? It just so happened….. that the night a body was possibly cleaned on your patio that you had a major grill fire that could only be extinguished with water….
I don’t buy the speculation that anything was destroyed on the grill – burning shirts, sheets, clothes and other misc would leave a mess. Things like that don’t burn as cleanly and quickly as you would imagine, and they would leave a lot of filth behind.
Rather, evidence of the murder could have easily been placed in a garbage bag and deposited in the bottom of neighbor’s trash can three blocks away. If you found a someone else’s trash bag in the bottom of your can, would you take the time to open it up and investigate? I sure wouldn’t.
Where do you see that they used the hose to douse the grill? I see that both Victor and Joe say that they “threw water” on the grill, but the only reference to a hose that I see is in relation to the broken shower. Am I missing something?
I agree that we probably would see remnants if any evidence was burned on the grill, and that the murderer(s)/intruder/obsessive cleaner probably didn’t use the grill for that task.
No mention of a hose – just throwing water on the grill (both used that exact phrase). I was speculating this was done with a hose. It’s odd that (a) the police found blood in the patio drain and (b) both Joe and Victor offer two possible explanations why the patio might be wet without being asked about it at all (Victor offered up that he was watering, and both Victor and Joe used the exact “threw water on the grill” phrase). Just one person’s opinion, but it looks like they’re offering a pre-planned explanation for an issue that didn’t even come up in the questioning. I guess we’ll find out at trial if this is an issue or not.
The different takes on the blood on the body will be tough to explain…..
Or they could be recounting actual events of the evening at this point. Fire on the grill … charred steaks … seems like the kind of stuff that one would remember from a hot weeknight in August. Joe’s scattered brain during questioning came up with “fire.” Also “blood everywhere,” as you point out. Because those were images that he saw and that cut through the haze in his brain that night.
JAF and rk,
You might also have subconciously thought of the MPD photo where the hose was found laying out, and in fact, the MPD highlighted this portion of the photo. So there has been a visual of the hose the the MPD keyed into immediately.
David
rk:Just one person’s opinion, but it looks like they’re offering a pre-planned explanation for an issue that didn’t even come up in the questioning.
That’s a very interesting comment to me – if we assume the trio know more than they let on, and spent time getting their stories straight, they most likely came up with ‘plausible’ explanations for issues they anticipated would come up in questioning. I wonder if anywhere else in the transcript information is served up like this where it isn’t really prompted that might give a clue as to the actual happenings that night?
And Joe himself used the word “plausible” a number of times during questioning, which itself is a ‘tell’.
I’ve never thrown water on a grill – you shut the lid, end of problem. Maybe if you had a glass of water in your hand, but no one would pull out a hose. Not ‘plausible’!
Just like the overkill on seeing that the backdoor was unlocked, the spider, the use of closed vs. ajar – interesting, though, that Joe & Co. could not remember the time stamp. The biggest ‘tell’ of all that they concocted a story. For me the best ‘score’ made by the MPD is still nailing Joe down that he didn’t drift off to sleep thus allowing for the ‘intruder’ to have time to clean, change knives, etc. That is major.
I live nearby and the patio would be visible from a number of neighbor’s windows, I can’t imagine that they moved the body outside. My guess is that bloody things were rinsed so as not to leave a trail of blood when they were taken from the scene.
Price & Zaborsky clearly could not conceive that Ward was the motiveless stabber. Dehydration after exercise + wine + Lunesta® + Lexapro® + Wellbutrin® triggered Ward’s tragic subconscious depersonalized deed after a dozing off after deathly New Yorker article.
The moans, screams, and grunts that brought Price & Zaborsky downstairs were not killing or dying sounds coming from Wone but from the over-medicated zombie Ward who may have realized what he had done in his ambulatory nightmare.
The only question I have left is when Price & Zaborsky figured it out, and when did Ward’s own memories return?
Looking forward to Ward’s transcript.
The rain in Spain falls mainly on the plain.
Our rain season is coming to an end. What is your precipitation like? Any flying froggies lately?
groan
You’ve already seen my frogs flying- able to hop and glide above this toxic echo chamber full of stuck-in-the-mud brain-damaged morons.
You’re welcome!
In Hartford, Hereford and Hampshire, hurricanes hardly ever happen.
echo chamber, indeed.
Geez, I thought he’d never leave!
Ben, Jesus still loves you (although some exceptions may apply).
My post above was too danged long so I’ll post this question again – anyone else think Victor was speaking for HIS situation when he theorizes the reason Dylan likely didn’t leave his room was because of fear (“I wouldn’t have come out alone – I was terrified” – something like that). Assuming Joe was NOT with him (which I do assume), and he doesn’t know in advance what if anything is going on, does he hesitate in the doorway of his room as indicated for a long while before descending the stairs?
I just imagine that a lot of strange noises have come from that second floor during the torture sessions – for how long did Victor listen and wonder? Was he concerned that Robert might have wandered upon Joe/Dylan accidentally?
Wondering if a lot of clean up was already done by the time he made the trip down and screamed his head off.
yeah, Bea….you know Robert would have yelped out several times when he was being poked with the hypodermic needle. had to have been a ruckus before Robert was immobilized.
My guess is that Victor was used to a lot of strange noises from the second floor – I wonder what finally triggered his ‘concern’ enough to go downstairs. He may well have heard the chime as he was going downstairs – perhaps Michael or Sarah leaving with the knife and clean up materials. Assuming he screamed close to the end of the news broadcast, 11:35, that leaves 19 minutes for Joe to settle Victor and get the story straight. And come up with a ‘new’ story necessary because of the screaming (undoubtedly they talked about how they could hear the baby cry next door).
Comparing Joe’s statement and Victor’s statement, Joe was certainly much more evasive and oddly unclear (someone pointed out that the shower leak made sense only through Victor’s account). But it’s weird that Joe seemed to have NO emotional response to seeing Robert’s body (likely because he caused it and this was unlike Victor’s experience). But Joe was rattled in the tape in a way Victor was not – which seems odd except that Joe is likely covering his own way-out-there behaviors. Victor was a regular Chatty Cathy (still wonder if “the gym” was Joe’s cover for getting drugs and Victor knew this, thus the ‘miffed’ moniker).
Victor was probably well used to all sorts if icky noises filtering up from below over many lonely nights, but I would think that he was shocked by what he thought was the boys up to their old tricks while straight laced Robert was around. I think that he took his pills and propped himself up in bed to watch TV and ignore everything (like the craven, denying, spineless fuck that he has shown himself to be), but as the rustling about and grunting escalated he then stood by the door, then was scared (as he subconsciously ascribes to someone else) and hung back then finally he went downstairs and screamed when he saw what had really been going on.
BINGO!
JAF: Here’s the hose picture from the crime scene shots.
rk: Maybe there was no search for a weapon by the MPD, of trashcans anywhere, because the murder weapon appeared to have been ‘found’ at the bedside.
Looks like the table and chairs were pushed to the side. for what, I wonder. dumping ashes? spraying towels off?
Victor’s statement that he was in bed with Joe when they heard the screams/grunting is important. It means either that (1) Joe is more innocent (of the killing) than you think; or (2) Victor is more guilty (of obstruction) than you think.
I think Victor is definitely guilty of obstruction and conspiracy – I would be shocked if Joe were asleep in bed next to Victor when this went down. Interesting too, when asked if Joe was next to him in bed the whole time, he responded “as far as I know”. Maybe a small letter “f u” to Joe for putting him through this.
Hi everyone. I have been reading here for awhile, but first time posting. I am a little confused by Victor’s answer on Part II – page 15 beginning on line 1. He says….”I question my own memory now, but I thought when I was screaming I heard the chime again.” I know Joe said he was awakened by the door chime and Victor was awakened by screams. So why does Victor say “I heard the chime again.”? When was the first time? They are really working the door chime thing. I wonder if the control box for that alarm system stores any data – such as when doors are opened. Maybe they were worried that it does and that is why it is so important for them to work that into their correct sequence of events.
Excellent eye, Sara (and welcome, of course). Either it’s an inconsistency (that “again” means he heard the first one, which is contrary) OR he’s speaking in that collectively concocted story way of ‘Joe heard it, and then I heard it again’. Either way, it’s a gaffe.
As for the chime itself, I doubt that the data is stored. My guess is that they knew they’d “have” to hear the chimes (unless the ‘intruder’ went out a window) and decided to build around who heard which one – Joe ‘heard’ him come in and Victor ‘thought’ he heard him leave during the screaming. Where Joe ROYALLY screwed up was being emphatic that he did not doze off between the first and second – leaving the ‘intruder’ no time to do all the things ‘he’ had to do while inside.
I found it interesting how Victor classified their friendship with Robert as “casual.” Dinner 3 or 4 times a year.
Joe, on the other hand, tries to make his friendship with Robert seem much deeper. “I was in his wedding.”
If Victor sees the depth of the friendship as casual, I’d bet it was exactly that. I don’t see Joe as being particularly “wedded” to anyone or anything, except himself.
I guess what I’m getting at is that since this friendship was potentially not a deep relationship, using Robert for something a bit more sinister would have been easy for Joe and others.
And if the friendship was casual for Victor and Joe, it was certainly less than casual for Dylan.
An additional point: If the friendship between Joe and Robert actually wasn’t very close, why would Joe (falsely) make such a big deal about it in his statement? He wouldn’t, unless he was guilty and he wanted to throw the detectives off the scent by creating the impression that the killing was something Joe could “never do” because he and Robert were such good buddies.
Based on what we know, Robert and Price were very close. A W&M grad, although not of either of their classes, described them as ‘best friends’ to us FWIW.
And don’t forget that rightly or wrongly, Price served as a pall bearer.
I think “best friends” would be an extreme stretch. I’m pretty sure they would have only overlapped in school for one year.
FoR: Gotcha, but ‘best friends’ was the direct quote from the W&M alum who graduated a few years after Robert and Price, but as part of the tight Tribe community came to know them well.
There was student government, the 13 Club, the 30th birthday party, the wedding and funeral….
Programming note: We were hoping for an analysis piece today but there’s a problem on the copy desk, evidently. Ward’s transcript will go up Wednesday, so in the meantime, continue dissecting the crap out of Zaborsky’s.
JUSTANOTHERFRIEND
If the pretend intruder used Joe and Victor’s car as a “launching pad” should not there be evidence of this on either the roof or the hood thereof?
HOYALOYA
Who’s Alec and what’s this about his riding a bike?
FASCINATING
I’ve always suspected that Robert was already in the house when Victor arrived home from his business trip.
Whether he saw Robert or not I don’t know. If as it has been claimed that Victor considered Robert to be his friend, I wonder whether Victor would let his his anger at Joseph supersede his being a good host to Robert. If indeed Victor ignored Robert, would not Robert wonder why Victor had given him the cold shoulder? Might Robert have asked Joseph something like: “what’s wrong with Victor”?
BEA
Like yourself, I have always been a Vic apologist. I think he was upstairs while the fun and games were going on as was his wont.
I think that he normally went to sleep probably with the help of a sedative. In this case, he might have been watching TV, but I can’t see why.
If he suspected that Joseph and Dylan were going to take advantage of Robert, that might have been an incentive to stay awake, but I don’t think so.
I don’t think Victor knew anything was amiss until he heard a ruckus, went downstairs & saw Robert laying there dead or dying with a knife in his chest, some amount of blood or whatever.
Ultimately Joseph calmed Victor down and gave
him a story to tell which would save Joseph’s as*. Joe knew Victor would do anything for him.
I am not sure I believe the gym story. If Joe and Dylan needed drugs, they could have gotten them through Michael who just happened to miss his first phlebotomy course that night. Alternatively, Joseph would have had Dylan score the drugs.
While Joe may come on too Asian go-go boys when
really drunk, I do not see this narcissist “lowering”
himself to score drugs at Crew Club or this racist going in to a Black neighborhood to get them.
Robert, I think Victor didn’t believe the gym story either. He got off a plane around 5:30, talked to Joe who says he’s going to the gym before going home. No new partners go to the gym at 6:00ish unless they are going back to work. Victor knows what time Joe usually arrives. Anyway, Victor gets homes and unpacks “a little” and Dylan confirms that Joe is at the gym. How would Dylan know that Joe is at the gym?
Victor may have wondered the same thing – what’s with this gym story and how or why would Dylan know this? He stops unpacking and goes to the gym yet he’s back home within 30-45 minutes (meaning he did not work out). Something was funky – maybe he suspected Joe was meeting up with Michael to get drugs, maybe they were doing drugs together (and then had a doggie bag to bring some home for Dyl).
I agree Joe didn’t go ‘procure’ his own drugs – that’s what Michael was for. My guess is that he met up with Michael and got high – and that’s why Michael missed class.
Maybe the whole gym story is bogus but why tell it? I think it was the beginning of why Victor was so “miffed” – drugs/hubby leaving work early (tho he never did so FOR Victor) because he had plans to play with Dyl while V was out of town. I wonder too if the ‘happy’ call Victor made that he’d gotten an earlier flight was met with a cool reception.
I’d love to know from friends if Victor had a habit of checking up on Joe.
I wonder if the key fob log at Results showed that Joe had indeed been at the gym on the evening of Aug 2?
That’s something MPD should have checked out, no?
One would think – my guess is that Victor did show up to look for Joe but that Joe was never there. Unless he paid for Michael to have a membership there and they used it for transactions. But it goes with Michael missing class – getting baked with his big brother as he passes off the score.
Legal BEAgles: A question I have based on what we’ve seen in these two transcripts (and the final installment coming tomorrow) and some previous discussion on their possible use in trial – Is there any reason to believe they won’t be read, or the videotapes played at length before the jurors?
I seem to recall someone saying wholesale playback of interrogations, no matter the case, can be considered prejudicial.
Of course this assumes Judge Leibovitz rules against the defense in their motions to suppress.
I’m not the best person to answer, I’m sure. My guess is that they will be played in parts, with the testimony of each interviewing detective (meaning the detective on the stand being examined as to why each took certain courses of action). They won’t just turn on the tape player for the jury – there will be more context than that, though clearly the defense has the right to request that they be played in entirety to make sure things are not taken out of context.
I love Denver in high summer: it is no wonder that Victor was “miffed” that he had to come back to the steamy Chesapeake.
I love to exercise, too, but, after an intercontinental flight, going to the gym would be the last thing on my mind. Could the gym records at Results be checked to see if Victor or Joe actually showed up to lift weights?There was a lot of showering early that evening, though, foreshadowing the showering later on. In fact, why would you shower in a shower that is not working properly?
Dyl, as I suspected, was the main chef for the steak dinner, but Ma’am predictably helped. How distressing it must have been for Victor to find out that her homecoming was not the thing to be savored that night. I wonder if the friend on the phone from Silver Springs was Michael Price; at any rate, Dyl must have been so blitzed as to not tend the steaks, while Zsa Zsa Gaborsky kept yacking away on the horn. But cleaning the kitchen and clean up of the grill again foreshadow the clean-up later on. Apparently, they did finish off that bottle of wine: Joe had said that they had drunk only 2/3rds of it.
Watering plants just before Project Runway, similarly, foreshadows the hosing and washing of the midnight hour.
Why was Joe so cheap as to cancel part of the cable? Another reason to resent your overbearing husband?
So, Vic and Dyl had trouble sleeping with Vic taking a Sufafed and Unisom to prevent nasal drip. Yet, they had no trouble falling to sleep that night.
Vic denies Dyl: was he part of the family? “No, not really.” And, he denies Robert: “I could NOT name five things about his life.” How off-putting!
Another strange quote linking Vic to Dyl: “Both like stark white and eyes as big as saucers.”
And, finally, the AC sucked so bad that everyone at Swann slept with their doors closed: they did overpay, as our Editors have pointed out repeatedly!
RK
I don’t see what Joe and Victor’s differing versions
of the amount of blood present on Robert’s chest have anything to do with Dylan’s location.
Dylan would have had to leave the BDSM scene.
And for what reason? So Victor could substitute for Dylan who was into BDSM and Victor not?
Victor’s aversion to BDSM is the whole reason why
Dylan was around in the first place. Vic tolerated
Dylan’s presence because Joseph demanded it.
The reason Joseph demanded it is because Victor
wouldn’t or couldn’t satisfy Joseph in that way.
What, did Joseph go into Dylan’s room to get a culinary knife from Dylan’s set? How would Joe even know it was even in there let alone where?
Are you saying Dylan was unaware that Joseph had
gone into Dylan’s room to get one of his knives?
And what about the Shakespeare cartoon was on the floor? Did Joseph direct Dylan to open the New Yorker to the page in question and then arrange Robert’s body in accord therewith?
Furthermore, I happen to believe that Dylan was most likely the surgical stabber. Even if Joseph was the stabber, I should think that Dylan would have been observing for BDSM purposes.
CDINDC
If Robert was dosed with a date rape drug then he should have been like any other victim in that situation. Which is to say cooperative.
Robert,
Date rape drugs do not make a victim “cooperative.” Date rape drugs render a victim incapable of defending themselves, typically through unconsciousness.
Plese educate yourself regarding the use of these drugs in forceable rape.
Here’s a website with some educational information: http://teenadvice.about.com/library/weekly/aa062502a.htm
PS…ketamine is listed as a date rape drug.
BEA
If I recall correctly, Joseph also used the word
“implausible” to characterize the very intruder story while it was being told to the police.
What kind of grill was this? Charcoal? Gas? My belief is that one does not throw water on some types of grills. Anybody know about this?
Okay. Joseph runs downstairs and sees his friend bleeding. Then, using his Eagle Scout training, he staunches the blood while Dylan just watches?
And why would Joseph feel the need to clean the knife or even rub a cloth on it. Is not the smart lawyer smart enough know that fingerprints and DNA on the knife could be valuable evidence to be used in identifying the mystery intruder?
Is that what people do when they find anybody let alone their friend dead? Clean off what would appear to be the weapon that killed him?
Dumb people would simply throw the knife off any victim’s chest and on to the floor while
trying to resuscitate the person.
If the victim was already dead, smart people — like a lawyer — would have either: 1) left it where it lay; or 2) used something like rubber gloves or plastic wrap to preserve the evidence.
RK
Whether this murder was planned in advance or covered up after the fact, Joe would know that police check dumpsters within a certain radius.
He would not have allowed the murder weapon to simply be placed in a garbage bag and placed in a nearby trash can — even a Black neighbor’s one.
Murder weapons are notoriously hard to dispose of or at least murdererers would tend to think so.
The best way to get rid of any remaining drugs, used needles and/or the real murder knife or any other paraphernalia would have been for Michael to introduce them into the drug underworld.
There, they would be hard to detect in the first place, follow the tracks of in the second place or trace the chain of custody in the third place.
ANONYMOUS
Patio or not, I have always been skeptical of the idea that the body was brought outside. To have done so would have meant: 1) more work within a circumscribed time frame; 2) greater potential for detection (as you have observed); 3) increased possiblity of leaving additional evidence behind; 4) only that much more effort required to clean the body. It just does not make any sense to me.
Well, as a supposed grill expert….
–One wouldn’t want to throw water on an electric grill, because of possible shock hazard.
–On a gas grill, it would be better to turn off the gas, and wait for the grease to burn itself out.
–throwing water on coals would generate a big cloud of steam and ash, soak the steaks, and likely extinguish the coals. End of barbeque and time to phone for a pizza.
How much fat could you get out of a couple of steaks, anyway? Maybe if the grill hadn’t been cleaned in two years, but this crowd sounds like members of the Regular Grill Cleaning sort of people.
On further consideration…
Grill fires typically emerge from production environments, for example, while cooking burgers for fifty people, or in a restaurant.
If the police thought to examine the grill at the time, (and Mr. Zaborsky was telling the truth) the grill ought to have been grimy and crusted with burned grease–else no fire.
If the grill was pretty clean, but showed signs of occasional light use, then Mr. Zaborsky’s grill fire story was probably an invention.
If the grill was squeeky clean, probably there was no fire, but just possibly somebody cleaned the grill after the fire. But who? And when?
BENFRANKLIN
First, you are making the presumption that Dylan was in what you characterize as prescription drugged out “depersonalized state.”
I am a bipolar person who has taken all of those medications at one time or another. Whatever they may have done or not done, they did not leave me in a “depersonalized state.”
Active in the mental disability community, I hear a lot of reports about reactions to medication. That is not one of them. The whole idea is to bring the affected into a more not less personalized state.
There is evidence that Robert was the victim of a BDSM ritual. Given Joseph’s unrequited love for Robert was most likely to have been the impetus for this whole production, there was no reason for Joe not to participate in the first place, terminate the events in the second place and know exactly what was going on with Dylan in the third place.
In the event that Dylan was “high as a kite” or “out of control,” it would not likely have been the first time and Joseph would have been well aware.
Thus, Joseph would have kept an even closer eye than usual in order to protect the well being of everybody in the house — especially Robert.
BEA
I don’t recall seeing your theory about Victor transferring his feelings to Dylan. Unklike the intruder story, this seems very “plausible to me.
Like yourself at least in the past, I have always thought that Victor was awakened either by the groans of Robert or a lot of yelling downstairs.
I think the reason that Joseph had little emotion is that he had gotten over that by the time he decided to take advantage of Robert.
I agree with you about the chimes. I think that we were just part of the mysterious intruder scenario.
But all these Gay guys just couldn’t keep their story Straight — much like Joe on a club night.
CJBIGGS
I suspect that Joe and Victor’s friends would have told us that it had always been their perception that Victor would do anything for the “love of his life,” Joseph.
Apparently, that includes covering up for a murder.
Joe was never in bed with Victor. Much as Louis Hinton alibied Michael, Tom and John alibied Sarah, Victor alibied Joseph.
CDINDC
Joseph was Robert’s college classmate, mentor, fellow lawyer and friend of many years. Victor’s realtionship with Robert was the typical friend of a spouse relationship — except for a possible twist.
Did Victor know of Joseph’s unrequited love for Robert? I supsect that he did either directly or indirectly.
One not remote possiblity is that Joseph had told Victor. Another is that Victor had sensed it over the years. It is hard to believe that a spouse — especially a dependent and relatively insecure one
— would have been totally oblivious to the special way in which I suspect Joseph acted when he was around Robert.
Another possibility is that Joseph had confided his feelings for Robert either sometime in the distant past or at least prior to the fateful evening.
Had Joseph confided his feelings for Robert to Dylan in the past, Dylan might have had reason to inform Victor should Victor have had occasion to let Dylan know that were it up to Victor, Dylan would not be around at all let alone living in Victor’s home.
Dylan’s interest in Robert had to do with his dependency on Joseph in general and their BDSM relationship in particular. Prior to the evening, Joe would have informed Dylan of his desires and enlisted Dylan to assist him in any event. But in this case, there was an extra reason for Joseph to enlist Dylan. Dylan’s familarity with Asian men.
CCBIGGS
Where have you been? Joseph had been Robert’s mentor in college. Robert worked with Joseph in student government. If my memory serves me well, Joseph was in Robert’s wedding party. Joe and Robert kept in touch through law school and during the following years. People don’t generally keep in touch with any old classmate. Joseph had occasion to tell Robert about his homosexuality in general and his spousal relationship with Victor in particular. Robert informed Kathy that he would be staying over the home of Joseph and Victor. What do you think Kathy said upon being so informed. Who is that? I believe that after the murder, Kathy Wone characterized Joseph as a good friend of her husband Robert. Joe was a pallbearer at Robert’s funeral for G-d sake! Not a close friend. Are you for real?
Joe didn’t say he was in the wedding party. He was at Robert’s wedding. He and Victor also threw Robert’s 30th birthday party at their old home. So why was Victor intent on saying to the cop that Robert was not a close friend? He had gone over with Joe and Dylan to bring Robert’s wife gifts earlier that year.
Alec is Joe Price’s son conceived through artificial insemination with a lesbian who lives in Maryland. They were the subject of a USA Today article about gay parents. http://www.hrc.org/issues/3785.htm
How many people feel betrayed by these phonies?
Reading Joe and then Victor is such a strange experience. After Joe’s fuzzy, choppy, hostile meandering Victor’s seems measured, earnest and almost convincing. I read it four times and it feels as though it might be about 80% true. Yes, the part about “our car is parked close to the fence” was obviously part of the cooked story. And why the careful description of watering the patio plants unless that was a cover for all the water out there? I mean, your guest has been brutally murdered; just the relevant facts. Ma’am.
The explicit details about the bathroom shower were also weird. If I were a cop listening to this I would have the feeling of being steered.
But Victor gives a convincing sense of the tension in that house. He learns from Dylan (making the bed) about Robert’s visit, and goes out of his way to describe verifying it with Joe? I picture Victor with hand on hip: “Joseph, is this truuuuue?” Then stalks off to his room so he doesn’t have to see Robert. Yes, he clearly didn’t go to the gym to work out. As CDinDC said, some bad chemistry going on.
He heard the chime “again” either because Joe told him at some point that he was awakened by the chime or because they cooked the story together. Sorry, but all evidence points to the latter.
But Joe gives the game away in his statement, highlighting things an innocent man would’ve trusted the cops to figure out. One example is his guff about how Victor was afraid to go downstairs, “you would have that on the 911 tape.” Like he’s so proud of planting these tricky little easter eggs he can’t resist pointing them out. Innocent people do not think like this.
One amazing thing was his remark about the knife block – something like, “Right away I saw the empty space” before the detective cuts him off. Why would he say that? At what point did he go downstairs and see the knife block in the kitchen? Didn’t he recognize his own kitchen knife at the murder scene when he picked it up and cleaned it? The fact that he is hung up on nailing THAT knife and no other as the murder weapon is damning.
The details, the vibe, the attitude in Joe’s statement leave no doubt in my mind that he was at the very least involved in the cover up. And given that, it is impossible for me to believe that Victor is telling the complete truth. He will deserve whatever consequences he receives.
If there is going to be a break in the case, it’s going to have to come from Victor. Joe and Dylan are in too deep. Victor is looking at a serious felony conviction and jail time for conspiracy/obstruction. The day of reckoning is fast appraching. The time to cut a deal, tell the truth, and save himself from years in prision is NOW!
My gut tells me that Victor was deliberately kept in the dark that night; that his statements and general fuzziness about the evening was because Joe kept the real details from him.
Now … why Victor would continue to live with the other two — assuming they told him later what really happened — is questionable. Either that, or he is in such denial about what REALLY happened that night, that he cannot see the truth.
What a strange pissy narrative Victor constructs and how gently he glides over the many glaring details of domestic disharmony. What on earth was Joe doing “working out” at that early hour. I have never met a lawyer who left his office at that hour, unless he was intending to go back. Like others I think “working out” may have been a long standing household shorthand for scoring drugs or getting high or drunk. Then he clams to have gone to the gym himself (after a long flight?) but clearly couldn’t have had time to work out in the time he says; he was looking for Joe and not finding him. Why didn’t these cerebral detectives point out to him that it was impossible for him to have gone to that destination and worked out and returned in that time frame?
All was not well at Swann St. before Robert even arrived there. Was Michael already waiting in the wings (somehow containing his body odor)?
Damn it, I forgot about that silly alt-dot-com problem that this site has!! My posts have been eaten twice this afternoon.
To summarize – I don’t think Victor went looking for Joe because he was concerned that Joe was buying or using drugs. He went looking for Joe because he was concerned that he might have scored a hook-up from alt-dot-com or where ever else Joe went looking for something “new”. Why else would a jealous wife fly across an entire continent and “pop-up” at home early?
I think you have something here. I’ve been thinking that there may have been a complete stranger present – one who was solicited from said site. Is this an option?
Always possible, but the trio would have SO fingered the ‘trick’ as the murderer long ago and been able to keep their lives (as they once knew them). Why Victor doesn’t do this NOW, I don’t know – he can’t possibly think Joe would do the same for him.
Even if our group think of Joe-as-narcissist-prick is incorrect (noted by today’s anonymous poster), that does not affect anything substantive – the lame intruder story not making sense – the bizarre occurrences which led to Victor screaming his head off. Besides, really ‘good’ sociopaths, and, to a lesser extent, narcissists, are quite adept at seeming not only ‘normal’ but also ‘charming’. Anon’s opinion could be totally consistent with the theories about Joe as they’ve been bandied about.
Victor is not talking: either because he has a compulsion to be loyal or the others have something against him.
Agree – I think it’s a combination of love and devotion to Joe (yuck), possible misinformation Joe supplied to Victor early on about the marital privilege, and later actions by Joe to get Victor as ‘involved’ as possible. I hope Connolly is using channels to find a deal for him – provided he was not the knife-wielding murderer, I’m sure he’d get immunity.
As for your other possibility, that Joe/Dylan “have something” on him so he want to talk – I can’t imagine that it would be ‘big enough’ to match up with doing prison time (likely 15 years – the judge will know that they’re likely getting away with murder) for conspiracy/obstruction/tampering.
How many towels were found at the scene? Victor is clear that he gave a towel to Joe, per the 911 operator’s instructions, but that Joe already was using one. Were 2 bloody towels found?
I thought only one towel was found.
It would be interesting to also know of Joe’s work habits around this time. Was he in the habit of decamping early to “work out”? My time in corporate life, and this was the messy sprawling cacophony of the music business in the 1980’s and 90’s so maybe not entirely relevant, saw many an admired legal affairs lawyer go off the deep end with alcohol and drugs. Lots of bad behavior would be tolerated for longer than one might think in the interest of getting the work out of the person, but tabs were kept always and a day of reckoning scheduled. Was Joe already veering towards that day? The porn on the computer, the getting grossly smashed at the company event, now peculiar absence during school hours all had to have been noticed. I wonder. I litigious lawyer partner is not an easy thing for a firm to divest itself of. Somebody, somewhere was keeping score and I’ll lay even money that Joe’s score-pad is not easy bed-time reading. I wonder if the cops have found the person in that firm who hated Joe enough to keep a log. In fact I would imagine that there was more than one, given Joe’s personality.
Hi AZ. If he was making his billable hours requirement, then ‘the partnership’ was likely satisfied. Remember, too, that he’d only recently made partner, so I suspect that the powers-that-be knew they had a bit of a party boy on their hands but decided he was worth it. Not uncommon, especially for litigators – so long as they behaved properly in the office, built a business (tho litigators get a bit of a ‘pass’ card on this), and met or exceeded hours.
I hope that cops spoke with others at Arent, especially those who didn’t like Joe, but I would bet the frustrations voiced were anecdotal.
I knew Joe at AF, and he was doing just fine. Also not unusual that Joe (or any attorney) would leave at 6:00 to go the gym or home and then not come back. While I am by no means saying he did not commit this crime(s) (some of the evidence is very damning/unexplainable), he certainly did not come across as the arrogant, self-involved person you all have branded him as. I sat with him at many a firm event, and never saw him excessively drunk (at least, no drunker than the rest of us were at that kind of event), and he was always interested in what I had been up to and how my family was — no excessive focus on himself. If he had a major drug problem, he hid it very, very well. Just my observations — not looking for anyone to freak-out and tell me I am a horrible person because I was somehow “duped” by Joe the Monster. Also, please understand that Joe and I were not close — never went to his house, socialized only around the water cooler and at firm events — so take this for what its worth (which might not be much).
Thanks for the observations, anonymous.
One question, is it abnormal for attorneys to store personal porn on their computers at AF?
I can tell you I never did!
Good choice!
Are you male or female, anonymous?
wondering where you’re going with that, FoR.
Thanks Anon. for the objective assessment. Most observations we get here re: the trouple are either strongly critical or blindly defensive.
Can you square the Joe you observed with the guy in the transcipts, or does there seem to be a disconnect with the guy you worked with?
Anon, I agree – it’s good to hear objective reviews/statements on the character of the suspects.
HoyaLoya – good thinking in making a comparison between Joe’s actions at different times.
Something else that struck me – both Joe and Victor repeatedly referred to the shower and grill (as stated before, perhaps to foreshadow the watery scene). However, Victor was almost fixated on the fact that Joe had phoned to reinstall the channels, yet Joe doesn’t mention this. Since Joe was so adamant to state facts in his interview that would prove his telling the truth – why did he omit this in his account of events?
I honestly don’t think I knew him well enough to comment on whether the transcript is unusual. When I read it, I did wonder what I would sound like under those circumstances… I will also say that I take/defend a lot of depositions where the pressure is not nearly what it would be while sitting in a police station, and not only do witnesses babble about details that don’t seem relevant, I am some times shocked that I don’t sound all that coherent in a transcript (b/c I am typically so coherent!!). I also some times review a transcript and think: “I see what the words say, but that is not what was actually ‘said’ during the deposition.” Does that make any sense? It is difficult to figure out the meanings and context without actually being there or hearing it. Another thing I wondered was how long the police talked to them before they started taping? Could it be that they got asked a lot of questions at the house and when they first got to the station (“How did the burglar get in?” “Tell us exactly what you did tonight?”), and that made them so bizarrely specific about certain issues? Or, did they work that all out before the police arrived, and were they so specific because it was all lies? Your guess is as good as mine.
So, I guess the much shorter answer to your question is that I can’t evaluate whether there was a disconnect between the Joe I “knew” (and I use that term loosely) and the transcript.
I completely get what you mean about transcripts (though I’m on the civil side and don’t have a ‘sense’ about criminal interrogations). I really appreciate your insight here. I believe there were two others from Arent who’ve commented – one who said Joe was mostly polite, one who said he was pretty out-there in behavior at times (like having his drug addict brother Michael hanging around at work a lot).
Any indication of his alt dot com life or was this completely hidden? I struggle with why on earth he’d keep pix of himself (and Dylan) in S&M regalia/in ‘action’ on his work computer, and that it indicates some desire to play with fire – it can’t be standard fare on most law firm computers (that I know of).
Were you there the day after the murder? Did you hear him ‘holding court’ in discussing it? If you don’t mind, I too am curious if you’re male/female, whether you’re senior or junior to Joe, and (if you don’t mind) whether you’re gay or straight.
Thanks for joining us!
Thanks Bea — I always enjoy reading your posts. I hope you (and everyone else) will not take this the wrong way, but I really don’t want to be “outed” as someone who posts on this site. I don’t mean “outed” in the sense of getting a call from the prosecutor (I don’t know enough to help or hurt any of the relevant parties), or in the “gay/lesbian” sense. What I mean is that I am sure a lot of AF people read this blog, and I don’t want anyone to figure out my identity. Paranoid? Probably, but I hesitated for a long time to post on here because I did NOT want to give my e-mail address to our fine editors. I hope that doesn’t mean you all don’t want to hear from me, although I have been lurking on this blog for so long that I guess that wouldn’t be a huge deal.
I was not there when Joe was “holding court” (in fact, I never even heard anyone talk about that — who said that it happened? Just curious).
Again, sorry to be such a nervous nelly!
I should add that I knew Joe was gay (everyone did — and I did meet Victor at firm functions), but knew nothing about the “alt.com” lifestyle. Also (obviously) knew nothing about the porn on the computer (very shocking!). Although, most law firms with which I have been associated are very lax about looking at attorney computers. I would bet that if you looked at every attorneys computer, you would find some things that would surprise you. Not to imply that “personalized” porn on computers is common at any firm, but I’ll bet you would find more X-rated stuff than you might think. At the same time, having that kind of thing on your work computer (regardless of the circumstances) does spell “obsession” or something similar to me.
Finally, don’t want to mislead — not a criminal attorney by any stretch. Civil side only for me, but lots of litigation.
Hi Anon – I understand. I’ve been told by two Arent ‘sort-of’ friends that they cannot speak about Joe. I’d suggest you make up false characteristics!
As for ‘holding court’ the day after the murder, someone who worked at Arent claimed this – that Joe came in late, in casual clothes, and described his ordeal in great length – my sense is that it was done in a public space with a number of hangers-on.
Odd to me that the non-lawyer, Victor, gives a more coherent statement than the oft-practiced Joe.
So no sense around the office that Joe was an S&M or drug hound? What about the brother hanging around??
Bea – Shoot! I posted a response to this twice, but somehow lost it. I didn’t hear anything about the holding court, and never knew a thing about the “alt.com” aspect of Joe, or the drugs (although I really doubt he was a full-blown addict based on my observations. Recreational user? Entirely possible). I obviously knew he was gay, and met Victor a few times at firm events. Knew nothing about Dylan, and certainly knew nothing about the “personalized porn” on his computer (creepy/obsessive!!). Never met Michael — I didn’t even know he had a brother until I heard about the robbery.
Also, I do not practice criminal law — purely civil, but lots of litigation.
Thanks for understanding about not wanting to post my characteristics. My false ones include: former SI/GQ model; wealthy — I just work for fun, and others do most of the work (I just wine and dine clients); about to publish my autobiography b/c my life has been fascinating, will appear on Oprah, etc., and will likely end up with my own show. (If only…)
I think you make a good point about the questioning before the taping. Obviously the tapes didn’t start running at the beginning of questioning, and it’s possible that their answers during taping were influenced (in the “clarified/directed” sense) by the earlier lines of questioning.
One other thing that jumps out at me: In Joe’s interview, he indicated that Robert showed signs of life when he was “found” on the bed – according to Joe “he actually moaned a little bit.” 2nd interview, page 10. However, he did not relay this info to Victor at all, and that information was not relayed to the 911 operator.
Now, assume one finds a bloody body in their house. First, you freak out. Then you call 911 immediately. That part of their response (or story) makes sense. Then, Joe is kneeling next to Robert and is checking for a pulse, and Robert starts moaning. Wouldn’t you relay that to Victor? To the 911 operator? Wouldn’t you yell “he’s alive, hurry!” It strikes me as extremely odd that Joe mentions this “fact” in the interview but Victor doesn’t even seem to know that Robert was showing signs of life during the 9/11 call. Again, like the “blood everywhere”, I think Joe is subconsciously letting details of the actual murder slip into his story about finding the body.
Robert’s “moaning” is extremely important. If Robert was still alive during the 911 call, it does not square at all with the medical examination findings that showed that Robert had been dead for some time. It also shows that despite their best efforts, Joe and Victor were not quite on the same page with their story.
I agree that the moaning and “blood everywhere” was a WHOOPS on Joe’s part – though I don’t doubt the defense team will put on evidence of sounds emitted by a dead body in the early hours afterward. Don’t know how they’ll handle the lack of blood except to find an expert that will say he bled internally.
I agree that if there was moaning, and the story was legit, that Joe would have been yelling updates to Victor on the phone. Not asking in an ordinary tone of voice ‘what time is it?’.
Bea: The defense has found such an expert, maybe more than one. They’re detailed in this in limine.
“…all (defense experts) concur that the quantity of blood at the scene… is consistent with the degree of bleeding that would be expected from the particular stab wounds suffered by Mr. Wone.”
“A stab wound of the chest where a major vessel or the heart is penetrated… will cause massive internal bleeding… Abdominal stab wounds, even fatal ones, rarely have significant external bleeding.”
I’m hoping we still have some medical folks following this blog. Please comment on the validity of these proffered defense experts. Assuming for the sake of argument that Robert was stabbed lying down and never was moved/never moved, is there a credible argument that Robert’s stab wounds would lead only to internal bleeding and would produce no more blood than we see in crime scene photos? Even if these wounds generally would lead to internal and not external bleeding, is it credible that they would leave mere drops of blood on a towel pressed onto the wounds? Assume the truth of the defense’s story – please. I want to have a fair appraisal of the facts, remembering that the burden is beyond a reasonable doubt. If Joe held the towel over the wounds as Victor claims in the 911 call (because they can’t retreat from that, right?), is there any way we’d only see a few drops of blood on the towel? Further qualify this question to include the assumption that the towel first was placed on the tshirt and then on the wounds – is there any defense expert who credibly could say we’d only see the blood we do on the towel? Inside of the tshirt? Bloggers, do you still have your medical examiner contact? Thank you for all you’re doing.
So the magic knife wound happened to leave no (well, almost no) blood and also paralyzed Robert, leaving him incapable of exiting the bed?
That begs the question: what if he was suffocated beforehand (per some of the medical evidence), died from a lack of oxygen, and then stabbed? If he had already been suffocated to death (and therefore couldn’t move or defend himself while being stabbed), how could he be moaning in pain during the 911 call?
rk, I have in the past suggested that there was an attempt to suffocate Robert, but this proved too difficult so he was stabbed as an alternative. It is said that suffocation takes strength and time to accomplish.
For medically knowable people: is the lack of blood consistent with Robert being dead before he was stabbed? The medical examiner thought he was still alive because he digested his own blood, but is this is incorrect, then the timeline starts to clear up a lot more. No/minimal cleanup because post-mortem stabbings don’t bleed as much.
If he was already dead when stabbed, perhaps that’s why he didn’t bleed as much, and perhaps why he didn’t defend himself, get out of bed, fall to the floor, try to reach the door, etc….
But then Joe’s lying about Robert moaning and making noise.
AnonFriend: We lost our forensics guy to the Fort Hood shooting investigation.
We’re shopping for a medical examiner to eyeball some docs for us in the next week or so. If anyone has a referral, please send our way.
A few comments really stood out today especially those wondering if we’ll ever know what happened that night. I try to stay optimistic but I really have my doubts at times.
As a courtesy to our West Coast readers (you know who you are), we’ll try and get the Ward transcript up early tomorrow morning. I reread it last night and still don’t know what to make of it.
Lost in DC, Craig
I’m curious what our readers will make of it. -Doug
One reason I’m interested in seeing it is that, thus far, to me Dylan has been the enigma of the trio. I feel like I had a sense for Victor and Joe’s personalities even before the interview transcripts were released, but Dylan is a mystery box.
Here’s a question: Do you think the defendants are telling their lawyers the same story they told the detectives, or do you think the defendants are telling their lawyers something more/different? I imagine it would be hard for the lawyers to mount the most vigorous defense if their clients are hiding facts or giving them only an incomplete story. At the very least, wouldn’t the defense lawyers want to know all the facts so that they can be aware of/anticipate all of the prosecution’s possible lines of attack?
Hi CJ, the defendants can’t tell their lawyers that they are GUILTY and then expect to take the stand to say they are not. Lawyers cannot ‘perpetrate a fraud on the court’. Some lawyers tell their clients that they don’t want to know if they’re guilty; others will want full disclosure but with the caveat that if they’re guilty they cannot take the stand to say they are not. IF they know their client is going to lie, they are supposed to withdraw from representation.
I would hope that if the defendants are guilty (assumed) and have NOT told the attorneys directly that Connolly would have the integrity to sit Victor down and give him a stern talking-to.
I’m grateful for the anonymous colleague of Joe’s contributions today because I have never been able to imagine HOW, in the time frame given, a murder site could be cleaned up AND a story concoted and repeated until three people had it down pat, all before the cops showed up.
Perhaps they were asked these questions as a group and the group answers became what was repeated in the individual interviews? Maybe we’ll know more when the Ward interview goes up?
Spike: Something about the defendant’s story(ies) does/do not make sense, true.
But neither does the intruder story. How could anyone get into a house, murder a guest by making 3 neat even stab wounds, switch knives and administer nine needle intrusions into a victim who shows no sign of resistance and then leave with a completely cleaned crime scene- without being heard or seen?And the coolness of those who found the body. Strange for sure.
I wonder if we will ever really know what happened that night
Yes, I wonder about the truth ever coming to light. We may even have to wait another 50 to 60 years for someone’s death bed confession to clear the matter. (Be it a defendant or some self-confessing intruder)
Nothing makes “sense” – either WHY would Joe/Dylan kill their good/casual friend who is known to be spending the night; WHY would – and how would – an intruder come in for the sole purpose of stabbing an overnight guest to death and clean up after himself using a knife stored in a different bedroom but ‘faked’ with one from the kitchen, all without anyone hearing anything except for the door chime?
Would love to see Dylan’s polygraph report. With the defense filing motions to ensure the prosecution would not try to enter it into evidence, one must assume he failed.
Yip. It’s the doesn’t-make-sense that bugs me. Giving the defendants the benefit of the doubt doesn’t give me an understandable WHY.
Did Robert have any enemies at work/personal life? Could someone have had a vendetta against him?
The age old question is applicable: who would benefit from his death?
Hey Charl, we’ve seen all sorts of theories floated here, from assassins (both as to Radio Free Asia – despite he was only an in-house lawyer, and there for a couple of weeks), the CIA (relating to Robert and Joe’s days at W&M College, purported to be a hotbed of CIA recruits, to a alt dot com trick and beyond. None of them make any sense either – unless Kathy Wone snuck in the house to kill her husband for insurance money – but again, despite the absurdity, it would seem there would be far better ways to kill one’s husband.
For me, the least-far-fetched is the residents at Swann, with or without brother Michael, and most likely with Victor sleeping through the actual murder but waking and agreeing to the cover up. I just can’t take Joe’s words that there was a chime and within seconds to two minutes, Robert cried out and he was dead – that “intruder” was very quiet and very quick to stab a man to death on the second floor without any struggle. (I’m to the point where I can’t type ‘intruder’ without seeing it as part and parcel of the concocted story, beginning with the 911 call).
I agree. The whole time I’ve been following, the only thought my mind jumps to is: they must have done it. But as to the exact mechanics… That’s where we have the riddle.
I agree it doesn’t make sense that the housemates wanted to kill Robert. But isn’t the most likely answer that he was killed accidentally? The housemates didn’t want Robert dead. They wanted a play thing for the night. But they were reckless and sloppy. Based on the known evidence, that’s the most likely scenario. Is it enough for a jury to convict them once we get to the homicide trial? We shall see.
CJ, I agree that they likely did not start out the night thinking Robert would end up dead. Some do, but I don’t. I suspect they were going to ‘seduce’ him, and if they thought past that, perhaps that they’d drug him to see if he’d ‘reconsider’. I suspect they (J & D) were high.
I think after they assaulted him, they chose to kill him to cover their actions. The only other scenario is that they stabbed him because they thought he’d died of an overdose – but the latter doesn’t make much sense. A dead man can’t argue with their testimony that he’d taken the drugs willingly. While they might have been too high to realize this, Victor was likely not high.
Such a mess and such a tragedy.
True. I can only hope that the system works FOR justice in this case.
So, Vic’s parental instincts distracted her from tending the grill: that actually may be true. But why couldn’t Dyl tend the grill while Vic talked on the phone — unless he was already high as a kite? I also wonder what else they had for dinner besides steak and wine. A sweet potato pie? A jicama salad? And, why would one clean the kitchen if one was cooking primarily outside? Was that cleaning story made up to cover for any later cleaning in and around the kitchen?
Jicama salad. Hilarious.
Clio: Hold the carbs, please. A 30 minute workout doesn’t burn enough calories!
Vic says that Dyl was in his own room reading: why didn’t he join them to watch Project Runway together? Even a “dom” ought to enjoy the camaraderie of commenting on the campiness of “Reap What You Sew.” I guess that his article was just too engrossing. Go figure!
These transcripts put underwear guy’s “Isn’t he our friend?” into a different light. Given Vic and Dyl’s apparent distance from Robert, Joe was probably trying to convince himself with that off-putting question.
I wonder if investigative internet sites like WMRW.com have ever before been strategically exploited by one person’s defense team to “set the agenda” of public opinion in favor of their defendant; creating the illusion of relative innocence surrounding one participant (their defendant). Perhaps using multiple anonymous posters to create an echo chamber of consensus. That would seem to be a savvy and easily executed legal tactic in our day and age. And one which should also be considered in assessing all the paginations around this case. That is to say, how likely is it that one or more of the frequent posters at this site (theoretically, including myself), are carrying the water of one of the Swann Street residents? I for one, would be expecting it.
Grisham’s silly penchant for conspiracy theories has finally turned inward on itself! It was only a matter of time.
First time poster Hideki? Welcome!
Just saw Bernie Grimm on “Good Morning America”, commenting on the police beating of a student following the Maryland – Duke game …
Media whore.
Although one would likely never consider linking the Charlie Sheen criminal assault case to that of Robert Wone, I found this link interesting in the context of the discussion of motions in the most recent posts. Specifically, the move to suppress statements and the overthetop aggressiveness by highly paid lawyers. makes the aggressive actions of Price’s et al’s lawyers seem routine and predictable:
http://www.tmz.com/2010/04/13/sheens-lawyers-evidence-miranda-rights-eyeglasses-cop-valerie-mcfarlane-aspen-criminal-brooke-mueller/
CDINDC
Let me be clear. In no way was I saying or meaning to say that Robert was “cooperating” in any way. I was speaking from the perspective of the would be rapist. How he would see it.
I am well aware that date rape and other similar drugs “render a victim defenseless” and I had no intention to suggest otherwise.
I don’t take rape lightly. Nor do I blame the victim.
I am sorry to say that I am all to familiar with rape.
Both within my family and among friends — Gay and Straight. Thank you very much.
So far as ketamine is concerned when one compares a drug like GMBH with ketamine, it is my understanding that 1) ketamine is more paralyzing and 2) longer lasting. I may be wrong about this.
CJBIGGS
If we are correct and there was no intruder and Dylan was participating in the evenings activities, there would have been no reason at least for Joe to be worried about Dylan’s whereabouts. Now there story is a different thing altogether.
JEFF
Maybe given Joseph’s spousal relationship with Victor, what Joe knows to be Victor’s unabiding love for Joseph and Victor’s public relations skills, Joe was confident that Victor could handle things.
Maybe given Joe’s other relationship with Dylan, he thought Dylan to be unstable, unreliable and a poor communicator. Or maybe he knew Dylan was so stoned that night, he might not remember what happened or be able to distinguish between what happened and the prepared narrative.
CDINDC
I find intriguing your theory about the culinary knife being in rotation in the kitchen.
But I have this nagging feeling that it came from Dylan’s room as BEA suggests.
I can also imagine Dylan’s having an obsessive attachment to his prize culinary knife set.
I also tend to agree with JEFF about their thinking that the presentation of the substitute knife would throw the police off.
But JEFF I do not think that throwing the knife down the patio drain would have been the smartest thing to do.
I can see Joe telling Michael to take the knife into a neighborhood where police would not be likely to find it. Or if police did find the knife, it would be hard to trace that particular knife back to them.
I wonder how Dylan’s obsessive compulsiveness might have played into the knife’s location. I am given to understand that Dylan did not do much cooking for the trio. If that is true, why would he let one of his prized knives out of this sight?
Indeed, the police had to request a comparable knife from the manufacturer.
VANDY
I think that your theory about the sex party makes alot of sense. And I agree about Victor. I think he has always been somewhere along a continuum of hurt, jealousy, frustration, exasperation and denial.
CJBIGGS
I agree with your assessment. That is why when people keep asking about whether or not Victor considered Robert to be a close friend, I think the answer may be that Victor was very conflicted.
I think that Victor thought that Robert was a nice guy, perhaps a very nice guy in Victor’s estimation.
But also a guy for whom he knew his spouse Joe had strong unrequited love feelings that went back, way back, before Victor back.
And being Bisexual, I know how many people don’t want to get involved with a Bi for fear that the Bi will leave them for one of another gender.
I can’t remember the movie in which a woman says to her newly “out” husband, something like: “at least I could compete with a woman.”
Perhaps Victor felt that he could compete with another Gay guy, but not with a Straight one?
FASCINATING
I agree with BEA, you and others who think that Victor was “in the dark” as you put it.
I have always wondered when Victor really arrived
home and at what point after his arrival, he was actually informed about Robert’s visit.
Whenever and whatever, I don’t think Victor was happy about the whole thing. Which gets back to my thought that Victor was conflicted about Robert.
I think Victor viewed Dylan as a necessary evil, because Victor couldn’t satisfy Joseph in that way. Not that Joseph was giving Victor a real say in the matter.
But what was Victor to do about Joseph’s feelings for Robert? Robert had become some sort of a friend to Victor. A Victor whom I think knew about Joseph’s feelings for Robert and a Robert who didn’t and a Robert whom Victor knew didn’t.
FASCINATING
I think that among the explanations for Victor’s behavior are his longstanding “nobody else will ever love me like you do, if anybody else would, could or should ever love me, you the love of my life” feelings for Joseph.
In addition, there is Victor’s denial about so many things as you and others have observed.
But I think at this point another element enters into the picture. Victor’s being enmeshed. He is partnered in what he views as a romantic relationship withdren “with” Joseph. He has put up with Dylan for so long and for what? His unabiding love for a Joseph. His dependency on Joseph.
BEA
I agree with you about narcissists and sociopaths commonly appearing normal to others.
Along with you, I cannot help but think that the prosecutor would have at least tendered a deal to Victor provided he was not the primary murderer as you and I believe him not to be. I also agree that the only explanation is undying devotion. Generally, I think that’s an admirable quality, I am just not sure it’s serving Victor well in this case.
CDINDC
I cannot speak for the private sector so much, because I spent most of my career working for the federal government.
All that I can tell you is that several times a year at last agency of my employ, there would be literally announcements broadcast several times a year the substance of which was advising employees not to visit or other sex sites on their work computers.
The only government employee I have ever known or heard of being fired preceded me at the agency. He was found with his pants hanging down around
his ankles as he was masturbating in front of his work computer when a supervisor returned early from an employee retirement luncheon. He was ultimately the subject of a CityPaper article for a related matter in which he was appealing the IRS rejection of his taking as business expenses his visits to prostitutes in Nevada as part of research for a book he was writing on the subject!
BEA
At first I thought the same thing about Victor’s beng more coherent than Joe. But lawyers tend to watch their words more than public relations professionals if you know what I mean.
If we are correct in our surmise that Joseph is the primary actor, Dylan the secondary and Victor the tertiary, Joe may have had a lot more on his mind than Victor. Also Victor was probably not worrying
so much about what either Joseph or Dylan would say. Victor had been coached by Joe and probably could not have been implicated by Dylan in any serious way that would not have hurt Dylan more than Victor. Maybe for once, Victor is “top dog” albeit a limited way. Not that it will do him much good if the “love of his life” goes “up the river ” (or is that “down the drain”).
RK
I agree with you about the disparity between the way one would expect another to act at a murder scene and the way at least Joseph appeared.
CRAIG
That’s consistent with some of my scenarious which would explain why there was not as much blood as one might have expected in this case.
CDINDC
I also have a scenario in which Robert was first suffocated and then stabbed, but you make a good point about what would be involved in an act of asphyxiation.
JEFF
I have scenarios to the effect that Robert was dead or on his way before he was stabbed. But not only is the coroner insistent about the fact that Robert swallowed his own blood but also that there had to be some kind of attempt to suffocate him which would explain bursting of capillaries in his eyes.
BEA
I generally agree with your theory of premeditated seduction followed by unpremeditated murder.
But if Robert overdosed, Joseph and Dylan would indeed have a reason to stab him as well. If Robert
without any drug history was found overdosed in the home of recreational drug users they would have some explaining to do.
It would be a lot harder to concoct an intruder story where one could easily be connected to the “means” by which the victim met his fate.
Here, the defendants could argue that they may have a history of drug use but not a history of stabbing people — BDSM notwithstanding.
CHARL
I agree with you that the “rub” is in the mechanics which is why I have tried to spend most of my time looking at the psychodynamics.
And it is the psychodynamics which give me at least some possible motives for killing Robert — particularly on the part of Joseph.
Swallowing his own blood doesn’t jive with the theory, but my understanding is that if he was loaded up with ketamine, that would depress respiratory functions, causing asphyxia, causing the burst capillaries. It would also explain why there were no outward signs of strangulation.
Though I agree with you on most things, I do think if Robert died from an overdose, I don’t think the defendants would have stabbed him. I realize that Robert has no drug history, but it would be very difficult to prove that the defendants “forced” him to take/inject drugs. They’d have faced THAT music rather than stab him – there’s no going backward from a stabbing. Unless they (Joe, Dylan) were simply too high to realize this – but even then, I don’t think it’s a logical jump to stab someone to death (and who, really, could actually stab a friend three times in the heart/chest/stomach).
Cold blooded in any event.
JEFF
I agree with you for agreeing with me:)
Suppose Robert had been stabbed sometime after he had first been drugged but before the time he ultimately died from the overdose?
I should have thought in that case, it might very well be possible for Robert to have swallowed his own blood.
But for a more scientifically accurate assessment of the probabilities of that happening in in a case such as this, I would have to yield to people with far greater medical, forensic or scientific knowledge in this area than I possess.
BEA
I agree with you on most things as well. Including my being along with you an apologist for Victor:)
I also agree with you in that it would generally be difficult for one to prove that one had been forced to take drugs by another even in the absence of one’s having a personal history of drug abuse.
But I was wondering if the situation might be different in this case only because of the nine needle marks, some of which appeared to me would be hard to reach by an individual attempting to inject himself.
But I would yield to CRACKHO or others more knowledgable about these matters than I.
It is my understanding that it generally takes the
“date rape” drugs Rohypnol, GMBH or ketamine somewhere between 15 and 20 minutes to take effect.
I should think that would have been enough time to accomplish whatever may have been the desired result of the would be rapist/s in the case of the dosing of whatever Robert may have been drinking in the kitchen during the initial conversation with whomever.
It is also my understanding that when ketamine is injected intravenously, it takes effect instantaneously.
In the event that Michael used his phlebotomy skills to administer ketamine or Dylan and/or Joseph used their recreational drug use skills to do the same, Robert should have been rendered helpless almost immediately.
What the cumulative effect of nine injections of the “stuff” might be, I would have no idea. Again I would yield to somebody such as CRACKHO or others more knowledgable than I on this matter.
However, I do not see how anybody could be able to intravenously inject himself nine times with that particular drug if indeed it would have taken effect almost immediately after the first injection.
Robert’s drink have been dosed in the kitchen.
BEA
The last line “Robert’s . . . kitchen” is misplaced.
anyone notice that victor specifically stated that he and joe wrapped up their bedroom routine at FIVE minutes or SEVEN minutes after 11? these are the exact times the last emails were sent/drafted (i’m not sure which) from wone’s blackberry. seems an odd coincidence…