New Evidence of an Interest in Asian Men?
Disclaimer: This post is MSFW – Mostly Safe For Work.
When the prosecution admitted they were dropping much of the sexual assault evidence at trial their stated reason was an “evolving” opinion.
Just as the prosecution’s opinions are evolving, so too are our ideas about the Swann Street housemate’s sexual interests, especially as new information has come to light. We hope that the prosecution is examining every association for a possible link in this case.
Image from a Porn Film Recovered from Swann
Recently, we noticed a resemblance that caught us by surprise and even more interesting, we learned of a very compelling story about an incident involving one of the Swann Street housemates at a popular DC strip club for gay men.
Of the three Swann Street housemates, the conventional wisdom is that Dylan Ward’s life and behavior demonstrated the most interest in Asian men.
This is largely based on the fact that Dylan spent significant time in Taiwan, both launching his children’s literature publishing company as well as being schooled in Thai massage. The problem with this analysis is that it does not offer a link to a sexual interest in Asian men.
With this new find, we may now have our first glimpse of a sexual interest in Asian men, and more interestingly, of not just one of the Swann Street housemates, but now two.
Just who could the second one be? We take a look after the jump.
The first bit of information comes from among the sexual paraphernalia found at the Swann Street home, which most of it came from Dylan Ward’s room. In the search warrant affidavits for the sexually explicit items, the MPD notes that among the items retrieved were 22 erotic videos , 11 erotic DVD videos, seven erotic books, assorted erotic magazines, erotic books, and finally, one DVD, and mind you, it is not a partridge in a pear tree, but rather one DVD entitled, “Man Whore.” (link NSFW)
What is interesting about this DVD is that this is the only title listed by the MPD. The prosecution has since revealed the name of many of the books in their February filing, but to this date, we do not know the rest of the DVD and VHS titles that were found among the Swann Street canon.
Why is this one title revealed? Did it stand out in some way? For example, was this the DVD found in the DVD player, which might indicate it was the most last one viewed before Robert’s murder? Was it out while the others were stored away? Whatever the reason, this is the only title we are aware of at this point.
Could something in here that might have relevance to the case? There is only one way to find out. We took it upon ourselves to screen this contribution to cinema.
It jumped out immediately. In the first scene of the film is not only an Asian man, but one who also has a passing resemblance to Robert Wone – same haircut, same skin tone, same facial structure and is clearly Asian. The Asian actor in the film is wearing much of the same BDSM paraphernalia that was recovered from Dylan Ward’s room such as a full body leather harness and a spiked leather collar.
Porn Actor in Movie Found at Swann Street
The main difference between this man and Robert is the film actor clearly has that severe vacant look, the ‘thousand yard stare’ that many porn stars acquire while every single photo of Robert’ showed his expression as full of life.
Now, choice of pornography is highly prejudicial. People who buy porn do not buy what they don’t want to see. The next question is what else is in the erotic videos? Is this actor in other DVD’s found at the Swann Street residence? Are there other associations to be found here? If they are there and haven’t been discovered is this the result of Blushing Nancys who are repelled by this aspect of the case and so they have not done the research?
The next bit of information ties not Dylan Ward to Asian men, but now Joe Price. We learned this information second hand, we freely admit, but our source is unimpeachable when it comes to understanding the goings on of Washington DCs gay community.
This may come as a surprise to some, especially to those who have advocated against this very point. In arguing that Joe Price had no interest in Asian men, those folks have pointed to Joe’s dating history which is exclusively of men from western European descent.
The story goes that Joe Price was at a popular DC strip joint for gay men. That night, Joe was extremely interested in an Asian dancer. Joe continued by offering him drugs if he would come home with him. The Asian man refused when he found out Joe had a partner back at home which would make for a complicated evening. Had the stripper only known of two partners back on Swann…
The Asian dancer contacted our source shortly after the murder when he recognized photographs of Joe Price in the media and related this story of Joe’s “clear” interest in him that night.
In a case with very little physical evidence, associations such as these should merit greater interest by everyone involved.
— Posted by David
When did this conduct allegedly take place? What drugs did Joe allegedly offer?
The only time stamp is this was before the stadium went up because it was at the bars in southeast, so it was circa 2005. Which drugs were not identified in the story.
David
I’ve always believed that Joe harbored an interest in Robert. Perhaps this interest was shared by Dylan and/or Michael (if Michael was indeed involved). One person could not have accomplished this murder and coverup alone. I stand by my theory that Joe was rebuffed by Robert and anger escalated the situation.
Re Joe’s proclivities…..yes, he was a verified S&M bottom, but bottoms also have regular, vanilla sex. And very often, they flip (i.e., are agressors).
Agree CD. I’ve always thought that it was quite a coincidence that Joe led Robert’s W&M campus tour and then was assigned as his mentor on his campus visit in the spring. It’s very likely the interest goes back that far. I wish we had more observations from fellow students who knew them both back then to let us know what the dynamic was in the nascent friendship.
Overall, this is bone chilling in so many ways.
The video and story lend credence to the theory that the assault may have been premeditated and that Robert was objectified by his “friends.”
It also sounds as though that dancer may have dodged a bullet. Is he still around I wonder? Willing to testify?
Bone chilling, indeed, Hoya.
One thing that has always “stuck in my craw” is the fact that Joe arranged this “sleep over” well in advance and did not share this info with Victor. (Victor discovered this when he returned home unexpected from a business trip.)
I see this as a “sin of omission.” Joe, perhaps, had ulterior motives, which caused him to not mention the sleepover.
Again, perhaps he had it in mind to seduce Robert and things didn’t go as planned, and the narcissist lost his cool, so to speak.
And Victor…..I’ve always thought he may have been angry and gone to bed and never saw Robert that night until he came downstairs to the tradegy that had unfolded while he was asleep.
I agree on all counts CD and Hoya. I’ve always suspected Joe had an ‘interest’ in Robert. If it was the case though I am sort of surprised that Robert was naive enough about it to place himself in this situation (the sleepover). Maybe it never entered his mind what Joe might be capable of.
TK, Remember that before the original affidavit and especially before Robert’s murder, Joe’s reputation was unsullied. He was known as an aggressive litigator for his clients, but to his friends he was a committed domestic partner, fought for the equality of oppressed people such as gays and lesbians as well as the poor.
While gay social friends had a clue about the three-way nature of the relationship, most did not know of the depth of this relationship. Reason might suggest that his straights friends, such as Robert, knew even less.
It wouldn’t be a surprise that Robert would trust Joe when decided to spend the night on August 2, 2006. He had no reason to believe otherwise. David
Agree – casual friends with whom you share (with your wife) an occasional party, and who is in your profession, and whom you’ve “known” for more than a decade typically do not raise eyebrows when one wants to get together even if there is a sleep-over included in the plan. Doubt Sarah would expect to be assaulted by Tom and John. Nor should she – even if they had over some straight male friend known to have a rabid libido.
Agree, too. Interesting point that Victor hadn’t known, wasn’t supposed to be home and came home unexpectedly – perhaps going to bed was a vote of ‘not me’ (and cowardice, if he thought there could be nonconsensual activity). But more importantly, in NOT telling Victor there is a statement of premeditation, whether that began as thoughts of seduction or not – it seems Joe treated Victor like the “parent” as in teens saying “parents are out of town!” only to have them come home early so you have to cop to SOMETHING.
Victor’s return may have been “unexpected,” but might it have been intentional? Did he catch wind, maybe from Sarah, that Joe was having a houseguest (whether or not he knew it was Robert) and fly home early to confront him? I’m struck by Nashville’s speculation below that Robert might have walked into a toxic atmosphere that night.
Do we know when Victor’s flight arrived and when he returned to Swann St.? Do we know for sure he arrived before Robert and went to bed?
Our editors had a post back in the fall called “Hail to the Victor” which is worth a revisit for its suggestion that we may be selling Ma’am’s role in all this a bit short.
For that knife to come out, even as part of the coverup of an “OD,” there had to be some real anger, perhaps supressed, on someone’s part.
HOYALOYA Victor considered Robert to be not only Joseph’s but his friend. If my guess is good, it was on account of Victor’s
not being into S&M that he had to tolerate Joseph’s play with others. Not to “pass over” Victor, but why would “this night be different other nights”?
TK In unrequited love situations, the
“object of affection” frequently, though not always, is unaware of the love feelings on the part of the unrequited.
The unrequited tend to fear that if the object were to discover their “love interest” that the exisiting friendship will end, thereby leaving the unrequited with nothing.
It is precisely on account of not wanting to be left with nothing that the unrequited generally do not confess their feelings of love for the object of their affection.
In the case of Gay men who have unrequited love feelings for Straight men, these concerns may be multiplied due to the fear that the Straight will not only be put off by the irreconcilable love feelings between the two but by the homosexuality of the other.
Even though Kathy Wone has indicated that Robert accepted the homosexuality of his friends that does not necessarily eliminate all fears on the part of others such as Joseph.
I wonder if Victor knew or suspected what plans his housemate(s) had for Robert. If he did, it’s unconscionable that he went to bed instead of staying up to warn or protect Robert. Victor must have known Robert enough to know that he was unlikely to be interested in any overtures – Robert was devoted to Kathy, and we have no indication that he even registered on anyone’s gaydar. Victor could have easily emailed or called Robert, perhaps getting his contact info from Joe’s phone or from a mutual friend.
And for that matter, what about Sarah Morgan? I would find it downright strange if my upstairs housemate asked me to clear out for the night because his straight college friend was coming over. It was a weeknight, after all – what kind of trouble to 30something professionals get into on weeknights?
Maybe Sarah didn’t know who was coming over and maybe this had been asked of her before.
PENELOPE I could be wrong, but it has always been my thinking that Victor went to sleep on the nights that Joseph and Dylan were at play. The reason for this would be the distaste that I believe Victor had for the relationship between Joe and Dylan. I speculate that Victor put up with Joseph’s relationship with Dylan because Victor believed that he would lose Joseph were he to do otherwise. Thus, I do not think that Victor knew what plans were afoot.
Agree.
CDINDC I agree with you. From the start, I have believed that Joseph had unrequited love for Robert and was rebuffed in the kitchen.
But if Robert’s kitchen drink was indeed dosed with a date rape drug, this would suggest to me that Joseph was prepared in any event.
The next question is whether Dylan was clued in about all of this in advance.
Was Dylan in the ready to assist Joseph if Robert was willing to participate?
Was Dylan in the ready to assist Joseph were Robert not willing to participate?
At Joseph’s direction, was Dylan supposed to take the lead should Robert be unwilling?
Was a paralytic such as ketamine just laying around for whenever or was this stash procured specifically for use in case Robert was unwilling in general or unwilling to participate in specific acts in particular?
I do not mean to suggest by the above that Robert
was in any way willing to participate in any of the events of that fateful night. I am just trying to deal with what may have been in the mind of Joseph.
Four white guys…four morons. You probably think Allen Iverson and Al Sharpton look the same too…thank God we all looks the same.
JAC… I mean Larry: We’ve been called far worse things. Stick to one nickname please.
As “the S. M. of the Wannabee Street Quartet,” I have to concur with Craig!
The man sitting on the right looks like Joe to me (younger, but this movie would be years old). Is it possible?
AP, This movie has a 2001 copyright. David
From his possible decade-old fantasies first nursed in Williamsburg, Joe may have enjoyed this scene — the actors look like college students in a dorm room, the white guy has a passing face yet an undefined, doughy torso at best (Joe), and the Asian guy is more fit and better-looking than his white counterpart (Robert).
This is looking worse for the elder Price every passing day; Bernie, keep preparing for the murder trial!
If Joe had an interest in Robert (and I strongly believe he did), then it was repressed and most likely hidden for many years. These “unrequited”
love interests between gay/straight men are challenging relationships to say the least, from my own experience. And if they remained friends, then the love interest was probably still there, too. When you add drugs to the mix, particularly meth, rational thinking is out the window. I believe Joe’s thinking became so twisted, he may have really believed that Robert was coming over because he wanted to participate in some type of activity with him.
CRACKHO Your experience with unrequited love is similar to my own. It is quite common for Gay men to have love feelings for their Straight best friends from some time in their lives and to harbor these feelings forever.
So far as what meaning Joseph may have read into Robert’s sleeping over, I have no idea.
I really don’t know quite where to begin.
In response to a frantic inquiry from a perplexed Gay Asian male friend immediately after Robert’s death, I shared my then unique and novel theory about Joseph’s unrequited love for Robert which he found to be more plausible than any other with which he would ultimately come to be acquainted.
Dylan’s connection to Asians includes being raised in Japan, teaching English in Taiwan and studying massage in Thailand.
I have previously stated herein that unless Dylan was sexually active exclusively with expatriots or living a celibate life in those countries, he had to be involved sexually with Asian men. Asians are frequently characterized as “exotics” by foreigners.
I have spent more than 25 years in the Gay Asian male (GAM) community in Washington and I can tell you authoritatively that Joseph Price has never been a part of it during that time.
This does not mean that Joseph was not attracted to Asians then or now. Not to mention that people’s tastes may change over time.
Thus, it is quite possible that Joseph was attracted exclusively or primarily to Europeans at an earlier point in time and became attracted to Asians to whatever degree at a later point in time.
It is also possible that he did not act on longstanding attractions for any number of reasons such as availability or role preferences.
People’s dating and mating habits have also been known to be heavily influenced by prior positive and negative experiences with “types.”
Ethnic preferences are a classic case of this sort of imprinting. Thus, Joseph’s particular interest in Robert could have been what piqued his interest in Asians rather than the other way round.
For a combination of reasons which I feel no need to elaborate here, Asian pornography is much less ubiquitous than many other forms in this country.
If one were to go online in search of men — Gay or Straight — for dating or mating purposes, go to a purveyor of pornography in search of male material — Gay or Straight, or seek images of masculinity — Gay or Straight, one will find far fewer Asians when compared to other ethnic groups such as Whites, Blacks or Latinos.
P.S. Only people who think that “all Asians look alike” would think that the man in the photo closely resembles Robert Wone.
N.B. Unless there has been a recent change at Z/S, there is only one Asian dancer there. And I know him. At the prior incarnation of Z/S, there was only one Asian dancer. And I know him. When Apex had go-go dancers, there was one part Asian there. And I know him. When Wet existed, there was one Asian dancer there. And I knew him.
There are at least two “good” reasons why venues don’t hire many Asian dancers. One is that most Gay men are not attracted to Gay Asian men in Western countries. And I am sorry to say that includes other Asian men. The second is that there are fewer Asian men willing to dance.
This has been a source of no small amount of distress in the community of Gay Asian men and those of us who are particularly attracted to them.
Not to kiss and tell too much, but I dated a 1/2 asian guy who danced at Wet for a few months (and he looked very Asian, so there was no doubt), and there was another (tall) Asian guy who danced there who was from Baltimore (he liked to wear this leather collar…). So Robert, you apparently are not an authority on this, and whatever else you claim has to be called into question.
Oh and Robert I also contest your generalizations about gay asian men and white men. I know a lot of gay asian men, some are attracted to other asian men (ever heard of sticky rice? One asian friend introduced me to that term!) and others like white guys and other asians. And I know a lot of white friends who like their fellow whites as well as asian guys. Not sure what circles you travel in, but sorry they are so limited and apparently ‘distressed.’
A term comparable to “sticky rice” does not exist in other cultures. This is because when compared with other ethnic groups. Asians are less common to date and mate
“one of their own” in Western societies where non-Asian men are available.
My comments are not based purely on my own experience or anecdotal experience of others. I have the social science studies and oral histories to back it up. A common comment of Asians when speaking to one another about dating an Asian is: “why would I want to date somebody like myself.” While this could as easily be said by a member of any ethnic group toward another, it is not as common.
Not only are my circles not “distressed,” I am more welcome than most other non-Asians in Asian groups. Sorry, your experience is so limited and therefore dependent on others for second hand information.
The fellow from Baltimore is Korean. The other dancer is half-Vietnamese who primarily danced at the former Z/S.
Even if one is wrong on a single point, it does not mean that one is wrong on every other point. You may want to take philosophy 1 and study the part on logic.
I should say that I believe that the other dancer is half-Vietnamese. But if you dated him, he may be somebody other than the person of whom I am thinking. The other guy is definitely Korean, because I knew him more than in passing.
I find the “contribution to cinema” line unnecessarily snarky. We get it, we get it, everybody here (except the trouple, and me) are far superior to pornography.
I also think it’s a huge leap to write “People who buy porn do not buy what they don’t want to see….” As a matter of fact, people use the fast forward all the time to get through the parts they don’t want to see. It goes with the territory.
I don’t think the guy looks like Robert either, though clearly you felt the need to belittle him with the vacant stare crack in comparison to the victim. I’m glad you resisted using the term “rice queen.”
darling spike, the blinders that you are sporting must be fabulous. is it true that ignorance is bliss? i too would love to be able to see only what i chose to see — how do you do it?
i do not recall your commentary on dylan’s sensual massage adviertisements designed for the road warriors and married men; with penetration from unnamed body parts? are you intellectually honest enough to weigh on the judgement of posting such ads; particularly weeks/months away from a criminal trial? do you have the integrity to comment on dianne and needham’s success as parents based on their work-product, aka dylan ward? is dylan’s life the life you dreamed of for yourself, for your children? do you have the integrity to comment on his current lot in life? or, like the self rightous kimberlee, lance and others, have you already unplugged your computer, thrown it out the window, and pulled the covers over your head, afraid that someone will bring up the unpleasant facts of the affidavit and this case generally?
If this post were a porn video, I woild fast-forward thru SDI’s last comment.
your honesty is refreshing, SKS. accountability and dealing in factual reality is not for everyone — cheers to you for acknowledging that it is not your cup of tea.
Darlin’,
Holding a 40-year-old man’s parents responsible for his actions today is not my cup of tea, SDI. Are you still holding your parents and your upbringing responsible for the mistakes that you make? It’s too soap opera-ish and, in a way, it provides Dylan and his cagemates an out for their criminal actions. Even if mommy and daddy are paying for the lawyers (we all, hopefully, have families that would come to our defense), I think it is a waste of time to continue berating their parenting skills.
SKS, who is funding Mr. Ward’s “posh studio” in southern Florida? If it is Needham, then his allegedly permissive parenting (that SDI has long criticized) is still having an effect on this case. Nevertheless, if it is the dashing, bearded gentleman with whom Dyl was seen at the last status hearing, then parental control over Dyl has been decreased, if not completely eliminated (given the payment of his legal bills.)
And, I doubt that Needham and Di were pleased about the recent massage ads: they probably helped to pressure their first and most troubling child to pull them down.
I used to be said that parents who were physically and mentally abusive were the root of their offsprings’ brutal crimes. Then is was absent or disengaged parents that were to blame. Now it is “permissive parenting” that leads children to commit horrible acts at midde age. Seems there is a very narrow parenting path along which one must tread or we all risk turning out murderers and rapists into the world!
Joe, Victor and Dylan are the people who are responsible for Robert’s assault and murder and the cover-up to hide the truth about what they all did on the night of August 2, 2006. While they may be the products of some less that perfect parenting (like all the rest of us), that doesn’t make their parents responsible for Robert’s death, anymore so than it makes our parents responsible for our misdeeds.
SHEKNOWSSOMETHING Right on! If the reverse were true, we could not hold anyone responsible for their own acts either in the confessional, the community or in a court of law.
“is it true that ignorance is bliss?”
I wouldn’t know.
I wanted to share a bit of my idle speculation. I’ve been reading this blog since its very first days and wanted to say, first, how much I appreciate the work of all those involved. I first read about Robert’s murder in the Washington Blade (RIP, dear Blade) and was so glad to hear that others were as disturbed by this incident as I was.
I’ve been wondering for a while about what the dynamic might have been at Swann St. that evening. How these guys went from hanging out with their pal Robert to murdering him. “There’s nothing much on TV so let’s drug and murder our houseguest” was about all I could imagine and it didn’t sound right. I just haven’t been able to imagine any kind of plausible scenario for how events unfolded moment to moment that night and haven’t been able to imagine the mood they were in. But today’s post and comments got me thinking.
It wouldn’t surprise me if, initially, Joe had some kind of sexual attraction to Robert when they first met that day on campus in Williamsburg. But I have to think that for Joe, after, what, 10-15 years of being just friends, Robert was no longer a major object of lust for him. Do you really sustain something like that for that long? Maybe I am too idealistic and underestimate peoples’ sexual obsessions, but my instinct is that Joe’s feelings for Robert were not primarily sexual at this point. “Yeah, he’s my hot straight friend, I’m over him.”
BUT: I’m betting that Joe has been teased by Dylan and Victor for a long time about his relationship with Robert. “Oh, Joe’s other boyfrend is coming over tonight.” “Sure, Joe, you and Robert are ‘just friends.’ ” And teasing often masks anger and jealousy, and then produces anger and jealousy.
That evening, before Robert comes over, everyone is tetchy and cranky. I like CDinDC’s point that Victor was probably annoyed. In fact I am thinking the whole dynamic that night was cranky and angry and not fun and playful. More hysteria than hilarity. Dylan is jealous; Joe is tired of being teased; Victor is also jealous of Robert and annoyed he didn’t know he was coming over. Dylan is needling Joe in front of Victor, this makes Victor more jealous, makes Joe more angry. Dylan is being a little shit. Everyone is sleep deprived and hyped on drugs.
And then I can see Dylan saying something like “Sure Joe, prove to me you’re not attracted to Robert. Prove to me he’s just a friend. Let’s drug him and I’ll [insert various sexual acts here] and we’ll see if that turns you on.” Maybe Victor is part of this, maybe he’s not. Or maybe Dylan imagines that a drunk/high Robert might go for Dylan….”Haha, Joe, sure after all these years Robert has never looked twice at you, but I’m telling you, he keeps looking at me. You sure it wouldn’t make you jealous to watch me fool around with Robert?”
It’s sort of a joke, basically a joke, no one is serious, but then Robert comes over, and is sweet and naive and goes off to bed, and then there’s a bit more teasing and things get a bit more hysterical and then…..
Nashville,
I can’t imagine that household was full of good vibes that night or most nights, for that matter.
I’d imagine there were many days and nights of angst for many reasons. Jealousy being a major bone of contention.
It takes a lot of energy to navigate a successful one-on-one relationship. Throw in Joe’s additional dynamics and you figure there HAD to be difficult times. It takes extraordinary effort to pull off a three-some relationship without hurt feelings.
Cranky and angry, indeed Robert may have walked into a percolating wasp’s nest that night.
Many casual observers of this saga with whom I talk believe that this tragedy was a plain drugging affair that went wrong .
To my mind, that is just too simple.
I see this as an operation that required a great deal of sophistication and experience and team work…. a subset of polished skills so to speak. It was carried out with surgical like precision.
Note the limited time span to carry out the operation, the pristine cleaning up of the environment, the deliberateness and cleanliness of the knife wounds, the use of needles (9 invasions) , the calmness when the police came….
The suspects bring a record of having broad past experience with drugs and innovative sexual activities.
They have been a team from way back. I suspect that none of the three suspects (they are men, not “boys”) was a stranger to experimentation.
The firm unity that they displayed right from the start only confirms their team work skills.
Whatever they did or were trying to do to their guest, I suspect that this was not the first time. Its just too smooth an operation.
NASHVILLETN Unrequited love has been known
to go on for a lifetime. Indeed unrequited lovers often retain friendshipships with the objects of their affection for reasons such as: 1) it is the best that “I can get”; 2) in the name of “hope springs eternal.”
Given Joseph’s being the center of this triad upon whom both Victor and Dylan were dependent in different ways, I do not see either of them
“teasing” Joe about Robert. And Joe’s narcissism suggests that he probably would not have “heard” even in the unlikely event that it had taken place.
My suspicion is that the emotionally dependent Victor had never been happy with Joseph’s open relationship with Dylan, but that Victor felt that he had no choice in the matter given that the last
thing he wanted was to lose his adored Joseph.
In other words, Victor only tolerated Joseph’s relationship with Dylan.
Victor’s endless love for Joe might also explain why Victor has declined to turn state’s evidence should it be true, as many of us suspect, that Victor is not as heavily involved in this whole business as Joseph and Dylan.
Whether or not Victor knew about Joseph’s unrequited love for Robert, I don’t know. If he did know, Victor should have thought that he had won the contest with the unavailable Straight boy or sucked it up “so to speak” much as he had with respect to Dylan. If Joe’s feelings for Robert still rankled Victor, why would he have not only considered Robert a friend of Joseph but of himself as has been repeatedly indicated.
Given Dylan’s experience with Asians whatever the nature of such may have been, I cannot help
but believe that he was well aware of Joseph’s feelings for Robert and probably for a long time.
I believe that Dylan is Joe’s submissive dominant.
This means that Dylan does to Joe what Joe has previously told Dylan that Joe likes to be done to him. In this instance, I believe that Dylan had either been enlisted to assist Joe from the start of Robert’s visit or Dylan volunteered for service after Joe was rebuffed by Robert in the kitchen.
Thus, far no evidence has turned up to indicate that Victor participated in Joe and Dylan’s BDSM scenarios. Quite the opposite. Personally, I believe that what Victor did during Joseph and Dylans’s BDSM sessions was either be out of the house or go to bed early, possibly with the help of sedatives so he would not have to suffer in the flesh what he already had to suffer in the mind. If Victor had been into it, there would have been no need for Dylan in the first place. I believe that Victor’s not being into BDSM is precisely why Dylan had been introduced into the relationship.
Victor has stated that Dylan was not part of the emotional relationship between Victor and Joe.
I believe that Victor accepted Dylan as a necessary
evil.
Dylan knows all about how Asians operate in general and he knows Robert in particular. Dylan and Joseph both knew that nothing was going to happen between Robert and any Gay guy without way more than a nudge. Thus, the need for GMBH or some similar date rape drug to be dosed into Robert’s kitchen drink followed by a paralytic introduced by injection in the bedroom.
I don’t buy the “narcissist loses his cool” notion – or rather, any theory that involves Price losing control of himself, being overcome by emotion, lashing out in rage, or such.
The state of the crime scene and the tightness of the time frame speak to the opposite – a surplus of planning and control.
No noise, no blood, everyone calm and showered… everyone more or less on message by the time the EMTs and police arrive… knife switched, bloody materials disposed… and the whole thing from start to finish in what, an hour?
Whatever happened was not a surprise to anyone except poor Mr. Wone.
I’ve never thought the rape and murder of Robert was pre-planned. I have, however, believed that the seduction of Robert was pre-planned. Didn’t go AS planned, though.
Even I don’t think Joe et al are THAT deranged. Deranged, yes, but THAT deranged? No.
CDINDC I tend to agree with you. From the start, I believed that Joseph had longstanding unrequited love for Robert. The visit provided what may have been an unprecedented opportunity for Joseph to consummate those unresolved feelings. That part including date rape drug and S&M games, I believe was planned. The murder, I think not.
I understand your point of view but if pre-planned to THAT extent then they’d not “screwed up” by leaving NO blood (in that intruders do not come with mops and an inclination to leave things tidy) OR the plan had another element that went awry (moving Robert’s body but the scream/reason kicked in and it seemed untenable). It was likely in the back of the mind of someone (or two), likely to hit on Robert or get him to “try” drugs, but I think if it was a truly premeditated murder (as in before Robert arrived) then they did a crummy job.
This is a real stretch. Presumably those videos also include a scene or two featuring white men with blonde hair. Under your logic, would this suggest that the housemates had a particular thing for blonde men, and therefore that they would be less likely to participate in a violent sex romp with an asian? It does not follow.
I had hoped that Lynn and the jury would be spared a screening of Manwhore from 2001, but, thanks to our intrepid Editors, the film’s relevance has been established. Who specifically are the main actors in the movie, though?
In that first scene pictured above, I do wonder about the book’s title and subject on the desk, but I surmise that the actors were not critiquing that work at that particular moment.
We all had thought that only tourists and lonely hearts trolled the O street strip joints of yesterday. Who knew that a soon-to-be partner at Arent Fox may have offered a pole dancer there drugs for sex, only to be thwarted by his own commitment ring. Even in that smoke-filled Babylon, hypocrisy must have gone only so far!
Owning porn is pretty passe even for middle aged lesbians. I don’t think anyone is judging THAT. And we all know the reason for the fast forward button – yet (dating myself) I do miss the days of an attempt at a ‘plot’ no matter how badly done (and sometimes the worse the better for other pleasures). Having had girlfriends (using word broadly) of a number of ethnicities, races, religions, I understand concerns posted of the PC variety, yet I don’t find the Eds to have crossed any lines in what they were trying to do here, which is to NOT ignore the elephant in the room. How else do you discuss the Joe apologists’ claims that he dated only Euro men? Please. I’ll bet he’s “dated” anyone who moved, happened to be next to him, was at the door at closing time – or perhaps my gay male friends, particularly when they were in their 20s, were all an aberration.
Did Joe ‘fancy’ Robert? Certainly a possibility. Did Robert being Asian have anything to do with that – possibly, but not more than being a handsome, fit guy; I doubt Joe ruled him out on that count either. As with courtroom rulings of what evidence comes ‘in’ or is precluded, for the purpose of this blog, I think the post was a good one and relevant to the discussion, though I feel for the people who felt stung.
While close readings of the contents of Dyl’s film library may be necessary, I did appreciate the warning label to caution workplace lurkers and posters about the adult nature of the pictures and procedures discussed in this post. I trust that the label precluded Tom, in particular, from getting so upset that he spoiled another one of his fabulous spring suits.
BEA I agree with you on all counts and I was certainly not meaning to be PC which I have never been. Just trying to be informative on a subject (Gay Asian Male world and community) with which I probably have more familiarity than most which again does not make me right about anything with respect thereto. But if Joseph was in fact a major player in the “Rice Queen” community, the odds are greater than not that I would have either met him or heard about him through others.
Hi Robert, I wasn’t commenting on your post. I thought your posts were well considered – I didn’t think you judgmental or ‘too’ PC at all. I don’t doubt that you know much more about whether Joe was known to have a distinct attraction to Asian men – but I do think he may well have had a singular attraction to Robert Wone, don’t you?
BEA Thanks. Absolutely. Within days after Wone’s death, I shared with a GAM
friend frantic about Wone’s killing that I believed that Joseph had unrequited love for Robert and that this was key to the solution of the Robert’s murder.
Regardless of whether Joe did or did not have a general attraction to Asian men, I believe that his interest in Robert was “singular” as you put it.
In connection with my unrequited love theory, I posited the idea that Robert was rebuffed in the kitchen. However, other bloggers herein have raised some good observations which run counter to the likelihood of such a scenario.
The following is NOT directed at you, BEA.
For the record: I make no claims about whether Joseph did or did not have a general attraction to Asian men.
All I have said is that if Joseph was indeed an habitue of one or more of the Gay Asian male or Rice Queen “communities” in DC, odds are that either I would have met him or heard about him. But I admit that there is no guarantee that this would be the case.
Similarly, my statement about Gay clubs tending not to hire multiple Asian dancers was meant as an absolute statement.
For what it is worth — and that may be nothing — my knowledge of the Gaysian community is not limited to the anecdotal experience of myself or others.
How homosexuality manifests itself in various ethnic communities just happens to be the subject of social science research undertaken by myself for two decades.
For example: with respect to the Gaysian community, I have researched material on the anthropology of Gay Asians abroad, the sociology of Gay Asians in America, the
history of Gay Asians in America and the politics of Gay Asian communities throughout the world.
In addition, I have oral histories by Gay Asian Americans within the US, Gay Asian immigrants within the US and Gay Asians in other parts of the world.
Much like some other subjects involving the LGBT community as well as others, it is currently possible to read virtually everything that has been written in the English language on this subject.
I am also in contact with social scientists who are fluent in Asian and other relevant languages with which I am not fluent.
This does not mean that I know everything there is to know about this subject or any other for that matter. It simply means that with respect to this subject, I know wherefrom I speak.
There’s an old saying: “the more you know the more you realize how much you don’t know.”
I am sure there are a great many subjects upon which the bloggers herein know a great deal more than I and I have conceded as much on many, many occasions.
However, I suspect that the history and sociology of Gaysians in America is not one of them. But I could be wrong.
In any case, this does not mean and would not mean that all of my observations or any of my conclusions are correct.
As a social scientist, I look at the data which includes data collected mostly by others than myself.
As a lawyer, I look at the arguments which includes arguments made mostly by others than myself.
If I thought that I knew everything about the Wone case, I would not be wasting my time on this blog.
Correction for typo: Similarly my statement about Gay clubs hiring multiple Asian dancers was NOT meant as an absolute statement.
I think it is more likely that Victor had “a thing” for Asians much more than Joe ever did. (Vicky and Dyk-licky shared that in common). The lack of information around Victoria’s sexual behaviors/desires tells volumns, His ongoing intent to cover everything up confirms.
About Victor’s “thing” – what makes you say so?
What do we know about Victor’s sexual wild side? Most people assume that there wasn’t one, based on lack of public records or reports on this site. However, the lack of such information tells me another story. Victor’s great talent of keeping his behind-the-scenes dramas out of the limelight has also a been part of his life’s story.
Wymon who love WHyMen, please jump in here now and correct me.
Well, I think we would all love to see Victor to develop some balls and to have a sexual “wild side” (even in his mid-40s!) as well as a sense of integrity, but his very matronly respectability, I am certain, attracted Joe, who required a Madonna to his Manwhore, in the first place.
No corrections, just disappointment that your conjecture about his proclivities implied “knowledge” of some sort. I’d hope that Victor had a wild streak at some point in his life like I wish for everyone (I relish my youth and past, even the stupid parts – we wimmin-lovin-wimmin types you identify with a broad brush are apparently a long less vanilla than you assume).
I find it amusing that so many men (straight and gay, alike) think they have cornered the market on “interesting sex.” After all, how can you have sex without a man?? ::rolling my eyes::
Indeed. If certain common tools ARE desired, well, then, that’s what sex stores and online shopping are for!
On a related note, I have always wondered why a strap-on, in particular, was NOT found in Dyl’s treasure chest. Perhaps, it was disposed of … along with the bloody towels, soiled sheets, and the murder weapon.
I thought there was a strap-on in that extensive list..
CLIO Forgive my ignorance and/or inexperience. But are strap-ons commonly used by Gay men? Even in BDSM?
Well, as a proper lady, I have only read about such practices, which, in late Victorian times (when 1509 Swann was built), were strictly the province of the policeman and the psychiatrist.
Nevertheless, given the comprehensive nature of Mr. Ward’s collection, one does wonder about the possible absence of a strap-on, which could have penetrated a victim without leaving any messy DNA behind.
A lot of theories on this site are based on the public web postings, criminal records, and/or sex toys harbored within the rooms and/or computers of Dylan, Joe and/or Michael. Good pals Sarah and Victor may have been more deeply involved in the murder and cover up — yet have so far avoided such associations — simply because they are smarter than the rest of the pack and had taken greater precautions to disguise their behaviors. Many sexual predators are often the invisible ones.
Always a possibility that Joe and Dylan are shielding Victor or Sarah, but my opinion (valid or not) does immediately jump to those who appeared to have brushed elbows with Robert that night. Sarah may or may not have left that night, and Victor may or may not have been asleep, but in many cases the words which come from the defendants’ mouths bear a kernel of truth. I think it’s more likely that what they were hiding is extraneous to the primary bad acts – that is, that Sarah may have left with the evidence, and that Victor perhaps awoke to/arrived in the middle of the primary bad acts. But I acknowledge this is an opinion.
BEA FWIW, I tend to agree with you.
BTW, Manwhore was apparently directed by a woman, Karen Dior, even if it is being marketed as a “Macho Man DVD.” I wonder if Karen is related to Christian Dior.
The “Things to Do” list on the advertisement for Manwhore may give clues in regards to Dyl’s flexible schedule that summer and beyond. After (possibly) doing all of those things listed, Dyl must have been tired to go to bed alone that early, even on a school night such as 08/02/06.
Karen Dior seems like an interesting character, actually:
Karen Dior (February 14, 1967 – August 25, 2004) was an American transgender adult film performer, director, singer. He was best known as a pioneer in popularizing adult films involving transsexual people.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karen_Dior
Fascinating, Nashville! Knowing that Manwhore is part of a known director’s oeuvre raises both the work’s historical and legal significance. I trust that Glenn and Cathy (with a C) are reviewing the film together right now.
Right, maybe this is an art film, not porn. We need to re-think the analysis of this completely.
Maybe the eds should change the caption on the photo. That’s not “Porn Actor in Movie Found at Swann Street”. It’s “Independent Film Actor Displaying Provocative Costume in Film Found at Residence”
And, perhaps the Editors could arrange for a Karen Dior film festival at a nearby movie theater, placing Manwhore within its historical and cinematic contexts.
JOHNGRISHAM
Whatever may have been Victor’s sexual proclivities, I do not think he would have been free to explore them. Joseph was able to do so.
This is because Joe was the dominant member of an “open relationship” demanded by him if for no other reason than Victor was not into BDSM.
I do not believe that Joseph would have permitted Victor to explore his interests even should he had have them which is doubtful given what appears to be his preference for monogamy.
Open relationships often occur in a context where the “partner who loves less” demands such from the “partner who loves more.” The “partner who loves more” knows that his choices are: 1) tolerate the nonmonogamous desires of and activities by the “partner who loves less,” thereby retaining the relationship between them which the “partner who
loves more” values more than life itself or 2) reject the nonmonogamous desires of and activities by the “partner who loves less,” thereby losing the relationship with the person whom the “partner who loves less” feels is at the very least the “love his life” and in some cases the only person who the “partner who loves less” believes will ever love him.
Agree 100%, Robert.
And add the bonds of financial love (i.e., we bought a house together and we own three original lithographs by XYZ), and Joe has Victor attached by balls and chain. (pun intended)
Correction: 2) should read . . .”thereby losing the relationship with the partner whom the [“partner who loves more] feels is at the very least the “love of his life. . . .”
Correction 2: . . . “in some cases whom the [partner who loves more] believes will ever love him.
JOHNGRISHAM
In other words, this is all about the “partner who loves more” being at the mercy f*ck of the “partner who loves less.”
CDINDC
Thanks for your immoral (pun intended) support.