And Male Enhancement
Last week in the prosecution’s latest discovery filing we learned new, albeit vague, information on the electro-stimulation device found in Dylan Ward’s bedroom and the location(s) of the needle puncture wounds found on Robert.
Another key piece of evidence from the night of the murder, Victor Zaborsky’s 11:49pm 911 call, has taken on a new role. Turned over by the government to the defense was a copy of “United States Secret Service report and related documentation concerning enhanced copy of the 9-1-1 call.”
Case watchers first heard this seven minute call, alternately described and sounding earnest or staged, in Paul Duggan’s Washington Post series on the murder. (The 9-1-1 call can be heard by right-clicking here).
Since Duggan’s piece hit, we’ve become familiar with the call’s content and Zaborsky’s demeanor while on the line.
“…we’ve had someone (unintelligible) in our house evidently, and they stabbed somebody… …I don’t know, we think it’s somebody (unintelligible) an intruder in the house. We heard a chime. …but we need help now.
“I’m gonna go down… …the person had one of our knives. …we have no idea, we have no description. We heard the chimes, and we heard the screams from our friend. And so we came running downstairs, we ran in… …we have an alarm, and so the chime went off… I’m afraid to go downstairs.”
The more we listen to the call, the more questions pop up.
But what has remained most curious ever since the call surfaced is what is not heard. What might the USSS enhancement tell us about what’s missing?
Some few critics have described Zaborsky’s call as Oscar® worthy; too measured, the language too precise and lacking of genuine panic. It’s difficult to place ourselves in a similar position, how we’d react after having found a friend slain juststeps away from where we were sleeping.
We’ll give Zaborsky a pass and assume that he was in a genuine fit of terror. But what about the other two housemates?
At no point in the existing 9-1-1 recording do we hear anything in the background. By their statements, we’ve been led to believe that Eagle Scout Price was providing first-aid to his stricken friend, constantly applying pressure to his wounds, never leaving his side. As for Ward; well, during the call at least, a missing person.
If Price was indeed attending to Robert, he was remarkable quiet. At no time do we hear him in the background saying much of anything. No efforts to communicate with either Robert or his housemates, once asking Zaborsky the time.
What would one reasonably expect to hear in a similar chaotic crisis situation?
“Robert, can you hear me? You’re going to be OK Robert, you’re going to be OK. Check his pulse! Victor, where are they? When are they coming? Dylan, get me some more towels. Joe, is he alive? Call a neighbor for help! Oh my God, my God, what happened?”
Nope, nada, zip. Maybe the Secret Service will have more luck discerning background chatter in the enhanced version of the recording. Or maybe not and we’ll hear only more silence.
-posted by Craig
It sounds urgent & authentic like Zaborsky is trying to figure out what they discovered downstairs in real time, deciding to repeat the intruder hypothesis posited by Ward with his “is the back door open?” deception. It seemed as logical as any other possibility at the time since they heard the chime.
Zaborsky seems to narrate pacing down stairs & looking away from the horror in the guestroom as much as possible as a way to focus on the conversation with the operator. His footsteps on the stairs caused him to mishear & misspeak at certain points of the conversation. He was truly distraught–the recording speaks for it’s own authenticity. The Secret Service’s enhancement of the audio will likely also support these observations.
Putting that one year of law school to good use – eh, Ben?
Ben! The “intruder theory” was first mentioned by Victor. Not Dylan.
His “is the back door open?” deception, as you call it, was said to the police. The police were not on the scene during the 911 call.
Dylan was supposedly in his bedroom and unaware of anything happening.
There’s a problem with that, BF. You speak of Victor “…deciding to repeat the intruder hypothesis posited by Ward…” while on the phone with 9-1-1.
Zaborsky’s own statement in the affidavit makes clear that “…he (Zaborsky) was on the first floor waiting for the police to arrive, Ward “came down, halfway down the stairs, and he said, ‘Is the back door open?'” This was after the EMT’s had already arrived and the call was long finished.
And referencing your previous comment, and who precisely “coached” Officer Durham between the hours of 1 and 6am when she gave her report?
By the way, Craig previously asked about those photos. Your confusing statements about who was or wasn’t at the trial, along with claims of having studied law, medicine, electricity, and your jury experience in DC, begin to sound like confabulation.
Viewpoints – conventional or otherwise – are welcome. We’ve made that clear. Lying is not.
As Craig asked: where are the photos? The camera doesn’t lie, but are you?
-Doug, co-editor
Doug we are on the same page, paragraph, sentence. Which shows the ridiculous nature of Ben’s claims.
Doug,
I am truthful only with only enough smoke screen to maintain anonymity as I must. Please try not to make this about me. Understand I do fly trial kites in thunderstorms.
I don’t think anyone knows what to make of Dunham’s statement or whether it will be part of the official story. If she does not testify she misspoke in her statement. We will soon know.
I believe Ward was not in his room but was pacing & unresponsive as the EMTs observed. Of course the family checked-in & talked to each other before the 911 call!
I never claimed to be at the most recent hearing–I was simply in touch by cell phone with someone who was not a competent photographer. If revealing personal details are required for participation here count me out.
My dog has fleas!
My dog’s Tranchier knife has gone missing!
Ben says: “I don’t think anyone knows what to make of Dunham’s statement…”
Speak for yourself, Ben.
Officer Dunham reported what she learned that evening. She recorded Joe’s statement as she received it.
Ben – You’ve made this about you by peddling falsehoods. Photo Phail.
“Count you out?” You’ve discounted your own credibility by your failure to be forthcoming here or privately/offline with the four of us.
We have far higher-placed, inside sources than you and we’ve maintained their anonymity for nearly a year. That is no excuse. You have had ample opportunity to make things right and you’ve chosen not to.
Our responsibility in hosting this operation depends on maintaining its integrity and credibility. Your Dylan Ward/Superman theory, while perhaps worthy of discussion, has been undermined by your failure to disclose and back it up with anything but fanciful conjecture and apparent lies.
Count you out? I’m counting to ten.
Push the button Craig.
Everyone may thank me later.
I’m the fence about the ban – you are entertaining, Ben. But as to your other comment, if you were to be banned to silence any of your cries, it would be for irrational dependent thought, much as you like to think otherwise.
And no, to “push the button” would not have everyone thanking you later. It would be to have us thanking Craig now, and forgetting about you right away.
If ever you’d allowed questions to sink in and be answered honestly, a ‘different thought’ would have been fine. I’ve learned things from John Grisham and even Lance, though I disagreed with them on many things. Yours are truly inane rehashing of putting forth theories which absolve Joe Price of guilt. Even your diatribes of late to finger Dylan as the sole killer (and now sole obstructionist) seem more concerned with whitewashing Joe than anything. What gives with that?
I’ve been pegged for a Zaborsky apologist by many – and I stand by my sense that he was not there for the murder part, yet I do accept that he’s guilty of conspiracy and obstruction. And I do still want him to take immunity and tell the truth, and unlike some, wouldn’t think it a bad thing if he managed to stay out of jail by doing so. Still, I listen. I have to give due where due is deserved.
You seem unable to accept any review of the facts which sheds a bad light on Joe Price. It’s a real head scratcher – I waffle between thinking you’re one of his siblings, to some teen who likes acting out on a public blog, to being some past boyfriend (or you wanted to be his boyfriend) just to make sense of your position. Your incredible bias has to be logical – or so I thought.
Perhaps getting banned IS your only salvation as you watch all your theories get laughed at – and being caught red-handed in a bald faced lie about having pictures of a very buff Dylan Ward may have been the end for you. Truth sometimes hurts, Ben.
“I’ve learned things from John Grisham and even Lance..”
That was really rich!
Thought you might like it – since you’d just reappeared on the scene. What took you so long?? 🙂
Ben, your idolizing Joe at the expense of Dylan is almost Vicki-like or Vicki-lite in its displaced flesh-for-fantasy. Realize, however, that all Three Stooges are going to do time, even if your own virtual posing turns out to be true. Pity!
Interesting when you consider that Officer Durham encountered a Joe that just wouldn’t (couldn’t) shut up.
Maybe in all the excitement and shock of the rapidly unfolding horror that had taken place in his home, Joe was simply mistaken about finding Robert outside on the patio. Victor’s footsteps on the stairs probably further confused Joe into thinking that he had indeed rendered first aid to Robert. So, Joe’s initial statements to Officer Durham should not be held against him. He was too overwrought to be fully responsible for anything he said or did in these many moments, days and years since Robert’s murder. Right, Ben?
Durham may have been confused & coached-or both & must not be a very credible witness. Do we have a witness list yet & is she on it?
And Joe may have been lying and calculating. Do you have any indications that he’s ready to tell the truth about what happened to Robert?
Ben,
Durham was one of the first police officers on the scene. How could she have been coached? And WHY would she have been coached at that point?
The first officers to arrive had no reason not to believe the intruder theory. In fact, they treated the scene as if the defendants were telling the truth.
sks, you (and ben) are absolutely correct. i often get very confused while walking up and down the stairs.
Maybe some of Dylan’s pills can help you with that. According to Joe, everyone takes these little pills and they function perfectly fine.
Seems that everyone on this site are taking Dil’s silly pills these days.
John, why the flip-flop on us?
John – you got in a bit of an argument with someone, so now we’re all on drugs?
Isn’t rigorous debate what blogs like this are all about? At any rate, it’s a cheap shot if you can’t provide any “silly” examples.
Which pills were they, John? The blue, yellow, or red ones? Swann Street lay in the Valley of the Dolls, after all.
Good one, Clio!!!
I believe many here are so off track on how to move this conversation/investigation constructively/productively forward. On this site. In my humble opinion.
This was a male(s) on male sexual crime, rape and murder. Still so many here speculate and act as if it was a camp Womenfest violation. And see it only through those eyes.
I kind of agree with you John that the conversation has stalled, but not quite in the way that you describe.
I would certainly like to take the entire goddamn (in homage to Salinger) thing and give it a good shake. For my own part I am sure that there are certain aspects of the thing that have just stuck in my mind and sort of ossified there and now look like truths but may not be, even as to simple line items of evidence. Then there is the fact that I am given to haring off onto various tangents based on completely subjective opinions that I have formed about the housemates, which is sort of loony but I do it anyway.
That said, I don’t think I have shied away from the fact that this is a violent sex crime; in fact I’ve been a bit concerned that I am boring all concerned with my constant repetition of that fact. So, your “womenfest” analogy just seems odd not to mention inaccurate and vaguely insulting.
I have been waiting, because you have piqued my interest before, for you to do some advancing of the dialog, by all means, please do.
Maybe you’re just tired … or something.
I’ve been advancing the dialog for quite a while. You are welcome to too.
Yes, well thanks, I’ll get right on that. Though truth be told I am a bit stuck on this thing just at the moment and finding myself repeating myself a bit. Maybe I missed something but you seem to have gone from your previous penchant for positing interesting theories and observations to getting a tad whingey and thats not helping.
Agree it was male on male sexual crime, rape and murder. Is your claim that some deny this? Or that too many women are on this board? I have never been to Camp Womenfest, let alone violated anything, but it sounds like fun.
No, Bea. My request is that this site would be so much more welcoming of Crew Club members. And less judgemental of this.
Now we are getting somewhere. Why would these Crew Club members be unwelcome here?
I welcome Crew Club members!
So the Womenfest comments was aimed at men too ‘girly’ to go to Crew Club? Let’s let that one go. I think that Former Crackho has had some of the most interesting insight here, and he speaks volumes on the seedier underbelly – all good to know. So if there are Crew Club folks who want to post, I am all ears. I know some folks who practice S&M but we don’t discuss the ins and outs though I’ve considered asking them to look at this site and give me feedback – would like more ‘practicing’ folks to speak as to what aspects are relevant (or irrelevant) here.
Exactly John. Vamping by the regulars is impenetrable. I gave up.
Either John adn Ben are the same person, or they know each other.
John disappears, Ben appears, Ben disappears, John disappears, John reappears and Ben reappears.
Same day.
I’ve wondered the same thing – perhaps the Eds. could check this out (same IP address – though perhaps they post at work/home?). The ultimate in lying and deceit.
The same person could have different IP addresses. Depends on if you have static or dynamic routing. With dynamic routing and IP address can change everytime. If someone is working from a large network, there may be dynamic routing, which will assign the address.
I don’t know, John seems a bit more intelligent to me and also not completely bat-shit crazy (there’s that).
Agree about the intelligence of John’s comments. They are of the same mind on things which are quirky, at best: (1) sexism – just don’t like the girls here; and (2) seem to take serious offense when their/his posts don’t persuade everyone of all issues. We all hope that others are listening, and to some extent, agreeing, but both John and Ben are of the mindset that if their word isn’t considered golden, there is an angry reaction (as in ‘take my ball and go home’).
Still, if they are NOT the same person, I prefer John by considerable measure. Ben likes to set off firecrackers and then run away. If they ARE one person, then Ben is John’s youthful and reckless alter ego. The timing is quite strange.
I apologize for my apparent sexism here. I really feel bad for doing that, tatically. My comments are only intented to help wake up the freqent lesbian posters here too their frequent male sex-on-sex biases (or converse) in this case.
I forgive you, John! XO, Clio.
Shameful. Absolutely.
Really Bea. You broadcast that I am the “ultimate in lying and deceit.”
So sad.
So, perhaps the law enforcement community should divide into male and female crime divisions. Sgt Anne, will only tend to female on female crimes, and Sgt. Bill, will tend to male on male crime. Should we get transexuals to tend to male/female crime, John?
How should that work in your world?
And one more thing…..rape is crime females are subjected to in far greater numbers than males.
Right-on, CD and Bea. As I first posted, the women, both biological and cultural (Ma’am!), of this case are key to its resolution. Accordingly, it is appropriate to have points of view from women and men and everything in-between on this blog. This retro discussion made me think of Helen Reddy’s iconic lyrics:
“I am woman, hear me roar. In numbers too big to ignore. And I know too much to go back an’ pretend ’cause I’ve heard it all before …”
What you propose is of course absurd. This site has succeeded in so many awesome ways to bring attention and transparency to the process of convicting Robert’s murders. And I also applaud the many passionate, dedicated and intelligent people (lawyers, friends and others) who have contributed to it. And I deeply respect most of them for all of their passion and brain power they’ve brought here, which I hope they will continue to provide.
But I now believe, this site has singularly failed to significantly expand its demographics beyond the half dozen or so of its current very frequent contributors (you know who you are) and has indirectly presented this site as unwelcoming and condemning of the explicit language, tales, tastes, sex stories, gang bangs, E-sex hook ups, lifestyle and gossip of Crew Club, Leather Rack and White Party-like frequenters.
No wonder why many of the household’s secretive ex-playmates rarely want to comment here.
The very insightful recovering crack addict is usually the exception that proves the rule.
Originally, this site seemed to be a problem/crime-solving investigative call to discover the truth. Now, in my opinion, it has found comfort in being yet another “important” legal blog.
Perhaps, I fear, there is a smart legal strategy out there among the Three Pig’s attorneys accomplish exactly this kind of derailment of WMRW.com
John
John,
Of course, it’s absurd. And that precisely is why your continued whining about the female contributors on this site is absurd, as well.
Thank you for supporting my point.
Do you have anything better to contribute than your mysoginistic rants?
Hi John, I know that my presence irks you considerably but here goes. I read your post and all I can think is: what do the White Party and/or Crew Club (not entirely the same) see so disparately from those of us who post here?
Frankly, it seems that you’re the one quick to label us women-regulars as anti-BDSM without any justification. Is it that you don’t think us capable of understanding the life? Many times I have gone out with my guy pals and had to smile at the club differences including drug use throughout the evening, with a rhythm as to when to switch it up for max benefit – and you’re right that I did not go with them to the after hours sex club, though I wished them well.
But what is it that would be so unwelcome here? I really am trying to take this to heart to understand it. I agree we regulars have devoted considerable time and are unlikely to be swayed by a single post – and while many here find it critical to ensure Robert’s name be cleared of having and consensual play as to either sex or drugs (and I personally agree he did not consent), I think that if info came forward that Robert was gay (bi) and that the was consensually having sex that night, I really wouldn’t care in the big picture – he was murdered. I truly think that Ward/Price let themselves go ‘too far’ that night and they never expected the outcome – those kinds of parties are more disposed to getting out of hand than other kinds of parties.
Anyway, what gives on this subject, John?
Re John’s comment “No wonder why many of the household’s secretive ex-playmates rarely want to comment here.”
They probably don’t post because they probably don’t want to find themselves in a witness chair. You can’t tell me that if one of Joe’s cronies posted vital information that could be used in a legal way to solve Robert Wone’s murder, that the editors of this website would not be approached by law enforcement to provide details about that persons web identity.
Bea, please be reassured. Your presence doesn’t irk me considerably. Even a little. Not at all. Thank you for your many insightful posts.
Bea, it looks like John doesn’t like certain females. That leaves Clio, AnnaZ and me that post most frequently.
I think it’s safe to assume that John does not enjoy my presence. But that’s okay with me. He doesn’t like my non-passive style, I’m sure….and that, too, is fine by me.
I’m not here to agree with everything everyone says. Not everyone finds being challenged distasteful.
So, John, if it’s me or a certain other female you find displeasing, then leave the rest of the female posters out of it.
Bea, if you review all of my posts on this site, I have never suggested that Robert might have been gay, bi or even curious.
My problem with this site is that the current profile/posts of its very frequent posters are not especially welcoming to the types of people who may have done drugs with the three pigs.
Yes, you have well argued that it was only two pigs. And you know I disagree.
I’m afraid I am in complete agreement with JG about the lack of tolerance for differing viewpoints by some on this site. All it takes, really, is one or two strident posters to derail the free exchange of ideas on a forum such as this, and I find that a shame. I believe we are all here in the interests of seeking justice, even those who might raise theories which challenge some aspects of the conventional wisdom on the site. I was especially dismayed to see the reception accorded “Drowsy Insomniac” by one or two posters. Someone recently said the comments section has become an echo chamber in recent weeks (months), and I think that is not an unfair assessment. Editors, thank you for your outstanding work.
Oops . . .misspelled my own name. Apologies.
DL….Drowsy Insomniac was welcomed by all. The ONLY thing said to drowsy that I can imagine you are referring to is my comment regarding Robert being an honorable man. Now if that comment ruffles male feathers, I’d say the boys are bit sensitive.
Both John and Lurker, I agree that we’d be better served to have a host of opinions and points of view. I suspect too that it’s harsh for people to jump in if they’ve happened on what occurred around (for example) “Ben Franklin” but I have to say Ben’s unwillingness to engage meaningfully tested most folks’ patience. But I would like to extend a welcome to anyone who brings a fresh – even if differing – opinion. I know I post an awful lot, which must get old to some.
I love the regulars here, but we could all take a deep breath before jumping on isolated comments within a larger whole – I think Drowsy was strongly welcomed but there was no reason to beat the drum of Robert’s heterosexuality and honor when it was only a conditional side issue, not the point Drowsy was making.
If that what you guys are referring to, I think it’s worth consideration. If it’s more, or something else entirely (using that as an example only), please elaborate.
And John – I know it’s only my opinion that I see Victor as less culpable. Time is running out for him, as clearly he’s guilty of the current charges even if he’s not guilty of murder (opinion).
I try not to make everything in life all about me, I really do.
That said, (wtf!) John ~ are you talking about me? I’m starting the channel Travis Bickle.
Really my dear I have more in common with Claus von Bülow; you have no idea.
I’m not even a lesbian, though my daughter is, so there’s that. Is it something about bicycles that makes you think “she must be a dyke”? If so, you’re not very evolved. Anyway, wouldn’t it be fair to say that Joe and Victor have done a fair amount of cross-pollination (for lack of a better term) with lesbians so maybe your rhetoric might have a chilling effect on whatever they might have to contribute to this site?
I certainly am not willing to take on any guilt about Drowsy’s reception here given that she came over after talking directly to me on Gawker and then was lavished with virtual leis, foot massage and everything short of eggplant casserole upon her penetrating and (I thought) brilliant arrival. I think she’s ok with the whole experience.
I’m not sure what’s going on with you today, but trying to read your complaint in more macro terms; you seem to be saying that if the received wisdom (or virtual consensus) of this site is that Robert would not have willingly taken illegal drugs or participated in an extreme BDS&M sex game that involved paralytics and knives then that means that some few avowedly female (because really, who knows) frequent posters to the site are just being a bunch of unwelcoming butch nannies who are stifling the free exchange of important, pertinent and much needed information from sources for whom such an evening of sex games and delicious intoxication would be as ho-hum as a trip to the dry-cleaners, then maybe you are right.
I am afraid that I can’t help you much there because Robert’s friends and the people who really knew him have made a very coherent case for Robert having been exactly what he seemed to be: that is an intelligent, straight, kind, friendly and unjudgemental type of guy. If you are in contact with these denizens of the male-on-male sex and intoxication scene and they are feeling that they need to unburden themselves of knowledge of what Joe and Dylan (or even Victor) have been up to, then maybe they could be induced to create heavily fire-walled or protected log-ins and tell us something that we don’t already know. I would certainly be interested in that.
Sorry, AZed. But WTF?
I don’t even know how I posted this response to a part of the conversation taking place about 25 posts or more down the line completely out of sequence and up here. Seriously, I don’t know how I did that, but John you know perfectly well what I am referring to even if someone reading these posts in sequence might reasonably conclude that I am insane.
I think the only honest, non-coached statement to come from Victor’s mouth during the 911 call is his statement that Robert ‘was stabbed in the chest’ – meaning the tone of his voice reveals that this is the first he’s seen of Robert. The rest is just what he’s been told to say.
And we do hear Joe utter the question, while furiously stanching the bleeding, which must pass the lips of any friend struggling mightily to keep a pal alive: “what time is it?”
I don’t think there is any need to ban Ben, he serves a purpose as a kind of blind, random, desperate updating service of what is probably Joe’s thinking.
That said, if this blog is going to devolve into Ben’s private (more than a little disturbing) sandbox then I (personally) will probably refrain from participation on those threads. Of course, I would hope that he could have the self restraint to leave my own remarks un-answered, but I know that is too much to hope for.
Perhaps a little less engagement with the tiresome iterations of the same nonsense over and over? It’s boring going over the same mind numbing crap over and over again and to causes the site to be burdened with literally the weight of hundreds of posts covering the same tired beaten ground continuously. A new-comer to the site would lose interest very quickly.. Besides, my threshold for people who tell silly lies about themselves on the internet is very low and (needless to say) Ben can’t wiggle under it.
Count me in on that approach.
I do like that approach, but Ben’s incessant insistence at attempting to refute some of the more obvious aspects of this case, only bolsters those aspects and reinforces them.
I know, CD (I know!), it’s a conundrum. I too am concerned about the site sinking under the weight of a thousand posted iterations of the same irrational justifications, general childish bull-shit, bizarre assertions and patent fabrications about what is known of these terrible events. I see it reaching some sort of tipping point whereby the uninitiated might come to this site, be overwhelmed and leave believing that the consensus favors fugues, lots and lots (really lots) of pacing and an absence of evidence for sexual assault when that is not the case. To read all of these posts and take them at face value is to practically conclude that Robert wasn’t even murdered.
I too am sometimes concerned that if this nonsense goes unanswered that it will just reach critical mass and take on some of the trappings of some sort of apocryphal shared mythology of the event. Even if only scattered fragments of these falsehoods and absurdities take hold they could metastasize into a growing acceptance of facts not in evidence, suppositions unsupported by evidence and just plain lies. I know!
On reflection, I am certain that that, and that alone is Ben’s only purpose here on this site. (talk about poisoned wells) I think this never ending battery of posts ~ each with it’s own tiny twist of falsehood, each with an additional confabulation, each moving the harsh light of scrutiny further and further away from Joe Price like a messy laying of bricks ~ has a purpose (a disorganized and scatter-shot purpose – for how could it not be – but a purpose nonetheless) and that purpose is to confuse observers and simply muddy the water.
Obfuscation is the only tactic remaining. Well, obfuscation and delay, which I am certain that we will start to see more of in the near future though I am confident that Judge Leibovitz has a very low tolerance for legal fucking around.
The elves have been abandoned as the absurd fabrication that they were; so now what remains is to take each and every line item of the available evidence and attempt to manipulate it in any way possible. Joe has no other choice. I am disappointed (though not entirely surprised) that the only poster the defense and sympathizer camp can come up with is this bizarre, thrashing, lying clown, but I take that as an indicator of the quality of the thinking on that side of the aisle and choose to take comfort from it.
Agree – the most frustration I have with Ben is that he answers only some of the questions posed and has no issue with dragging something irrelevant (or false) into the thread, only to abandon it later and substitute something new when he’s cornered.
I agree with AnnaZed. The Ben joke has grown old and is now seriously wasting our time. At the very least, a group boycott of Ben.
Ben’s “contributions” may still be entertaining to some, but I would bet my life savings that they have become as predictable, boring, and tedious to most readers as they have to me. It is time to ignore him. Every time. Always. No matter what he writes. Resist the urge. Please.
Why was it again that Victor had to run back upstairs to call 911 – was there no phone on the second floor? I think Victor is a good actor. And I am torn regarding his actual involvement. He has stayed with Joe – a self-involved drug user – for a long time. While I am pretty sure he wasn’t actively involved in the murder, the fact that he had any involvement in the clean up and cover up says a lot of his character. And if I ran upstairs to grab my cell or cordless phone and my partner was attending a stabbing victim, I would be running back down the stairs while calling 911. And banging on Dylan’s door. And there would be much more instruction, questions, interactions with Joe. The whole call is B.S.
I think there was a phone on the second floor. I suspect telling him to go upstairs was Joe’s way of furthering control of things. While I am convinced of Victor’s complicity in the obstruction and conspiracy, I think it begins with all saying he was asleep upstairs from the beginning, that he had returned early from a business trip (which presumably can be substantiated). I wonder if Victor was concerned enough to make himself “be asleep” – not that I believe any intended to kill Robert before he arrived, but perhaps Victor knew that they were planning ‘something’. I wish he would tell what he knows – he may well have been more a part of the murder than I speculate, but I wonder if Connolly can even get through to him with Joe protecting the homefront.
FCH: I think I recall hearing that there was a phone extension in the 2nd floor guest room. If that’s the case, why did Victor have to go upstairs?
I wonder if DC MPD/9-1-1 dispatch records reflect the incoming number. Was it a cel or landline?
Also as we’ve learned, Robert’s BlackBerry was on the night table right next to the bed. Why not grab that one and dial?
I always wonder why he seemed to lower his voice when he went upstairs.
Yes, that is one of the many odd things about Victor’s telephone performance.
Actually, all casting of wide nets and considering of alternate scenarios notwithstanding I don’t think Victor had a part in the original attack on Robert, but I do think that he knew that something was “up” and failed to protect Robert. He cravenly hid upstairs instead. For that he will have to make some very serious amends, like give the whole entire ugly, disgusting game away.
Now would be a very good time for him to do that, by the way.
I think that there were several junctures when Victor could have attempted to break things up and Robert would have lived:
(1.) After what I believe was the initial attack in Robert in the form of drugged water or maybe a vicious and immediate attack with a hypodermic right as he walked in the door. Victor could have put a stop to things right then as Robert was losing consciousness and very likely he would have prevailed. Frankly, if he were a person of any honor or self respect he could have fought these two bastards off with a weapon if he had to, to protect a defenseless man (Robert). I would, and I’m a five-foot tall woman, but he didn’t. No person who calls himself my friend, lover or family member could perpetrate a crime like this in my knowing presence or I would fight them like a banshee, but not Victor apparently.
(2.) during the period when Robert was being sexually assaulted. I am not a believer in the mechanized sexual attack. Unless that electro-stim device has Robert’s DNA on it, I’m not interested in it. There are plenty of ways to bring off a man (or a woman for that matter) that don’t include bizarre props but certainly still fall under the rubric of sexual assault. I believe that Robert was the victim of sexual abuse bringing about involuntary climax and assault with either an object or a man’s penis forcing his own semen into his rectum. I think it is obvious that the overriding need to bath Robert’s body had to do with the transfer of DNA during a sexual attack. I think these two bastards thought that they knew their stuff and that bathing Robert would take all traces way of their attack on him, and they were almost right. In any case, Victor could have trailed down in his nightie at any point in this attack and begged the boys to stop and maybe have been listened to. I believe that he knew that his boys were attacking Robert.
(3.) I think there was even a time, a moment perhaps, when Robert was not dead but maybe appeared to be dead from drugs and that Victor was likely aware that something was really “up,” really afoot (no pun intended) by then. I have lived in those narrow antique townhouses in New York and it simply isn’t possible to do all of this fucking and have someone on the next floor up be unaware of it, I don’t by that. Victor could have stopped them from murdering Robert if he tried hard enough and was willing to put his own life on the line for principals that you and I take for granted as being part of the contract of civilized people, but he did not.
So, thinking all of this as I do; I am unimpressed by Victor’s thespian strivings on this 911 call and I here now in black and white call him out for being a coward, a liar and a self-serving shit not worthy of licking Robert’s boots.
If I am wrong about this he or his supporters can tell me why.
“buy that” that is.
And yes Mike, I think that one conspirator was creating the false, not sent messages to Mrs. Wone, so the Blackberry was in use, so they had to use another phone.
The Blackberry messages were created just after 11:00 (11:05 if memory serves) so I don’t think that was the reason – though Mike’s comment was hilarious.
As to Victor, I don’t disagree that he’s a coward, liar, nor fit to lick Robert’s boots. I suspect that whatever he envisioned that Joe & Dylan hoped would happen with Robert did not include rape or murder, however. I disagree on the score of when he was most likely to have had knowledge that Robert was dying – my personal guess is that Robert was dead when he first learned BUT that clearly he should have immediately called 911. If he doesn’t tell the truth, and thus have his pals’ charged be upped to Murder One, then he’ll go to jail for conspiracy and obstruction, and deservedly so. He’s guilty of those charges whether or not he strikes a deal, but I would prefer (and this is a personal opinion) that we find out exactly what happened that night, let Kathy Wone have her peace, and have Dylan Ward and Joe Price behind bars for the rest of their lives for MURDER, than to have all three behind bars for 5 – 15 for obstruction/conspiracy.
You are probably right Bea, and there’s the rub. The conspiracy and obstruction charges are pretty much a given. Nothing, but nothing can keep that axe from falling.
The question is; is Victor willing to do the time on these charges to protect these men from a murder conviction?
If so, he is more of a worm than I have said previously, a parasite sucking on the rectum of a worm is more like it. In some moods I find his actions the most reprehensible of them all; given that I pretty much believe that all perpetrators of this type of crime are basically insane (responsible, but insane) and I don’t think that Victor is insane, I just think he is a worm.
I think Victor’s “stepping up to the plate” will comprise of him taking responsibility for his part of the conspiracy/tampering charges, but not stepping up and making sure those responsible for the murder will spend their time behind bars.
yes, Victor is a worm.
Oh and Bea, not so fast on the Blackberry timestamps on the unsent emails (electronic forgeries in my opinion).
It is a feature of the Blackberry that one can mess around with the time stamp while in edit mode. The false time stamp won’t appear on a message once sent (the actual time will appear) and I think one of our conspirators knew that, but on a draft, in edit, it can be whatever you make it.
Of course the Secret Service has made life just that little bit more tedious by screwing up the imaging of the Blackberry.
So, I actually do think that the Blackberry was “in use” at were sometime during those long minutes when no one in that house was summoning help for Robert or later when Victor finally got around to making that call.
Could be – I just took it a bit further in terms of pathology (Joe’s) in that he wrote them at 11:05 and was ‘waiting and seeing’ about sending them. Sadly, I think Robert was dead by then.
Victor is (by accounts we have thus far) spineless and his actions reprehensible. Still, if he “sang” tomorrow I (personally) think this would salvage a modicum of basic human decency; my “dream” for him would be if he was already working for the prosecution. About one in a million that he’s already cooperating, but I think murder charges are so much more important right now – and thus a murder conviction – than having Victor in prison for long.
As for Dylan and Joe, I disagree that they’re both insane. It’s possible (to me) that Joe is not only NPD (narcissistic personality disorder) but possibly a sociopath, but I think Dylan is likely a weak-willed and pathetic loser. But insanity, in legal terms, no. They both understood perfectly that their actions were wrong.
Oh absolutely, in a legal sense all three of them are sound as Turks.
It is my own privately held opinion that people who commit crimes are all crazy, but only a small sub-set of them are the “not responsible” type of crazy. If that makes any sense.
I believe that you can be crazy and still know you are committing a crime. Insane even. It’s late and I enjoy reading all of these assessments. And Ana, I think you are 100% on about how things panned out. I do think, however, that that the boys would be interested in playing with the electro thing, since they were into the s & m scene, but am also wondering why they wouldn’t have gotten rid of it if they did. Though those machines are rather pricey for an unemployed sometimes massage therapist; maybe Dylan has a practical side to him.
I just listened to the 911 call again – interesting to me that Victor says “he (Joe) told me to go upstairs immediately and call 911”. Every word could be a lie, of course, but this seems like more ‘evidence’ that Joe was calling all shots and directing traffic. With Victor saying ‘they had one of our knives’ and agreeing with the question ‘did the intruder take your knife’, makes me wonder about when he came upon the scene.
Clearly by the time of the call he knows that he’d perpetrating a lie, but his ‘facts’ are still fuzzy. I am guessing that Dylan was showering or otherwise finishing up the cleaning tasks – again, I think Robert was stabbed at 11:00, right before the text messages were set up but not sent.
Just ramblings, but an 11:00 murder makes more sense for all that had to be done clean-up wise, evidence disposal, getting the fake knife (odd that Victor says ‘don’t touch that’ during the 911 call as if to be preserving evidence) and spinning the story. And the ‘scream’ heard by the neighbor could well have been at 11:04 (by Robert) or as late as 11:34 (presumably then by Victor).
The article I believe you mentioned recently, AZ, about most murders being unplanned drug or alcohol induced messes, seems fitting here. A rape, a cover up, and a complete lack of morality and integrity.
Bea – Thanks for the smart take. I’m struggling with one point. An 11pm murder means 1030pm-1100pm could’ve been very, very busy.
Does that reflect a spur of the moment attack or something more planned? Who knows.
Does one just jettison the search for motive because it doesn’t seem to fit any of the war-gamed scenarios? Or am I just hung up on trying to fit the motive puzzle piece in somewhere?
I think the sexual assault began at 11ish (perhaps the time the scream was heard?).
Again, I think Robert arrived 1030ish as planned, all retired to bed with the plan to catch up in the morning. Joe propositions Robert. Robert gets angry. (Perhaps Joe has tried before.) Joe gets angry at Robert’s “audacity” to be angry and refuse him. Joe, perhaps already on drugs, attacks Robert.
If ketamine was used, Robert would have been subdued instantaneously with the first injection. (I’d scream too if someone stabbed me with a hypodermic needle.) Robert was assaulted within 15-20 minutes. Joe et al attempt to suffocate Robert. This proves too difficult, so they stab him. (around 11:15-11:20.) Then a clean-up. And if my theory is accurate, the blood would have been contained in the bathroom (mostly), except for some residual drainage when Robert was moved back to the guestroom. I don’t see a long drawn out sex encounter. It was a rape. Rape is to the point.
I still believe the scream was Robert. Not Victor. I think Victor may have gasped, but not scream loudly enough to be heard next door. Now Robert had reason to scream loudly.
The motive for sexual violence is violence itself. The perpetrator may give himself (or herself) all sorts of justification like “he really wants it, “how dare he refuse me,” he’s needs a good fuck in the ass to take him down a peg” (whatever), but the actual motive is the need to commit criminal violence expressed sexually on another person.
Hi Craig, a few reasons why I think the murder occurred around 11:00:
1. the text messages with the 11:05 time stamp (though it’s been pointed out that could have been faked – regardless, it’s important that they weren’t sent);
2. that Joe is quoted as saying “we” went to bed around 11:00. Victor was already in bed, so presumably this means Robert, Dylan and Joe. Could mean that this is when the ‘party’ started but I just don’t think they sipped water downstairs for a half hour. I think the time stamp is more meaningful – the point at which he wants to pretend he was next to Victor on the third floor;
3. The ME statement that Robert had been dead for some time (don’t recall if this relates to blood in duodenum but I think so – getting fuzzy on details);
4. I suspect that Dylan and Joe were high at 10:30 in anticipation, that the come on was quick (and quickly rejected). Maybe they pretended to “let” him take a shower and accosted him (“he’ll want it, he just doesn’t know”) and then after a while realized that this was rape and Robert would report them. I speculate (and that’s all it is) that they stabbed Robert around 11 – or possibly AFTER the hoax of the texts when Joe realized something had to be done. But he was stabbed not long afterward if not before the texts.
I don’t know anything about the stim machine, but if it was out and ready, I can’t imagine that it took long to do all the horrible things they did to Robert to occur. And not long for Joe to realize the mess they’d gotten themselves into. I really believe that the clean up took longer than the murder.
I used to be convinced (and still think it possible) that they changed theories mid-stream, after the clean up.
Alternately, they cleaned because they had to get their DNA off Robert. Why Robert’s semen was found I don’t know except that it wasn’t something they could easily remove once there, but it would appear that neither Ward nor Price penetrated him. I know far less about “boy” sex than most, but assume that they either were going to dump his body elsewhere or had quite the DNA fest to deal with requiring that his body be washed thoroughly. This would have been done fairly early in the 1.25 hours for the reason that even after the shower Robert would have been bleeding profusely had it been done right away (or so it would seem).
Joe would have known that it made no sense for an intruder to clean the place and clean Robert. He would also know that to dump him elsewhere was risky and that cops would know this was the last place he was (even if they said he left). When did the drug-addled Joe get clarity enough to decide about the “problem” and which was it – clean the DNA or a theory change mid-stream?
Too bad the neighbor doesn’t have a better time stamp on the scream.
Time stamping done by Joe – the 11:43 mistake that went through the questioning, and Joe’s answer that the intruder must have arrived between 11 and 11:43, besides showing himself as a smart ass even under dire circumstances, shows his hand a bit as trying to be vague. Not, “well, I didn’t fall asleep for at least fifteen minutes, so that’d be 11:20 after brushing my teeth and stuff, so I’d have heard it then I think – must’ve been between 11:20 and 11:30.”
But he knows there would be no time for intruder clean up. And he and Victor to my knowledge never told authorities what TIME they got up because of the ‘low screams’ and chimes – they want authorities to think it was right before the 911 call, but of course it wasn’t. And accepting that Joe never went to bed, except possibly to break the news to Victor, what was the time stamp on that? Did Victor scream then? It seems on the 911 call that reporting the knife was in Robert’s heart and chest was among the only genuine sounding remarks – that this was his first look at Robert’s body (previously he said he’d been stabbed in the stomach when asked).
I doubt Joe went upstairs to tell Victor. I think he came downstairs when he heard something and then he screamed. He did NOT immediately go call 911 but his comment that Joe “told me to go upstairs” may have been accurate.
Too, I suspect Joe called Michael to take away the evidence – and that would take some time to arrive. Maybe they hid it for him down the block to save time, but Michael being on the phone with Joe suggests that he’d already been told of what happened and what was needed of him.
I digress (and RAMBLE! – boy!). Motive. I think it was just to avoid rape charges – they told themselves that Robert might agree, and when he didn’t, they told themselves he’d change his mind. They forced him. They knew he would press charges and so they committed cold blooded murder – the motive was simply to save themselves from rape charges. So, no, I don’t think the rape/murder was planned, but I do think they’d decided Robert WAS going to play with them, one way or the other.
If they gave Robert GHB in his water, it would take effect fairly quickly. They could have “helped” him upstairs within 15 minutes upon his arrival. Depending on what they had set up already upstairs (syringes, toys, etc) it could very well have been 11:00 ish. And, most important, Michael may have already been there. So the carrying away of evidence didn’t require that much of a wait.
I am still thinking they thought they killed Robert with the drugs/paralytic and panicked, and came up with the stabbing/indruder story.
And don’t you find it funny that while Victor didn’t know the state of Robert or whether he was breathing or really anything going on in the room, he could immediately identify that the knife the intruder used was from their own kitchen.
Yes, Former, how sick is that – to spill out details about the knife used but didn’t know if Robert was breathing.
It well could have been that they panicked thinking he was dead, but my guess is that then it would have been a he-said she-said that HE took the drugs voluntarily, had sex voluntarily. Two live witnesses against one dead. And if they thought he was dead for a while, even long enough to arrive at the knife/intruder theory, surely Eagle Scout Joe checked his pulse. Might have been a merger of the two – already have the knife – AND we don’t want to be brought up on rape charges which were sure to come.
I do think the clean up took longer than the killing. I don’t know about the GHB because I think (not sure) that they did test for that and it was negative. But getting him upstairs could have been as easy as ‘let’s put your bags away” or “I want to show you XYZ” and he’d have gone.
Dylan noting that he heard the latch may have some nugget of truth – they listened for Robert to get in the shower and then went in, though I suspect they LATER showered him and, as CD has said, THAT is where they stabbed him – certainly moved him there quickly afterward if not in the shower.
All so horrible.
One thing about law school, whether you loved or hated it, is that from day one they preach that they will teach you how to ‘think like a lawyer’. And always, no matter the circumstances, I find myself doing exactly that. No doubt Joe’s wheels were turning in that regard as soon as trouble first appeared – and trouble meaning his own. He bet the farm on all three maintaining the lie and letting the government PROVE they killed/conspired/obstructed because no intruder in the world is going to clean up after themselves, particularly with three adults sleeping nearby.
The only extraneous wrinkle is the possibility that Michael Price was also there and also participating – AND that Joe knew as the weak link he would not hold up and thus had to tell him to get lost. But I don’t think so. I think this is as ordinary and sad as most assaults and murders, as the article AZ posted would suggest.
What if Michael was involved in the playtime as well? Sick thought, but maybe there is more that bonds these brothers than we know.
Do you really think though that anyone would believe a story of Robert willingly taking drugs and partying and having sex? It seems very out of character for him, and I think Joe would have thought so, too. That is my hesitation. I think he knew that no one would buy that Robert was either a drug taker or willing participant. So he had to come up with something else; thus the intruder story. And Joe was very quick to point out that there was no sex involved – that Robert wasn’t the least bit gay. Everything in that household was baseball, hotdogs, apple pie and BMW’s. Until that pesky intruder entered the scene.
I see your point but I don’t think Joe stabbed Robert under the mistaken notion that he was dead already – he’d have checked for a pulse. I think he wanted to absolutely make sure he was dead to prevent the rape charges.
If Joe (thinking as a lawyer) was faced with the decision of a death-by-drugs and having that theory questioned, I still think he’d go that route than to stab him and make it SOMEBODY’s clear cut murder.
I am very torn on this. I wonder if a paralytic could decrease your pulse or make it so faint they wouldn’t feel it? Wow, though, to him killing his friend to avoid being charged with rape. How low must someone feel about themselves? Actually, he must hate himself quite a bit. Maybe he wasn’t as comfortable at being gay as he seemed? I mentioned the internalized homophobia before…did perhaps something happen to make him very angry at the hetero population? Did Robert stand for something that he hated so badly?
I normally find that people with apparently huge egos like Joe have very low self-esteem once you scratch the surface. Did the drugs exasperate some deep rooted emotional problems that Joe had kept buried for years? Or was it just part of a sick, twisted play scene, enhanced by drugs, that they had planned all along?
What type of physical/emotional abuse were the Price boys subjected to growing up? Is that what helped forge their seemingly tight bond?
As you can see, FCH does not have the mind of a lawyer. But I still have fun thinking.
All horrible stuff to think about – agree, Former (though I prefer to call you “c-ho” for some reason). My guess is that night ‘got out of control’ but not in a regular people with integrity way. I think Joe and Dylan did sexually assault Robert and simply were not willing to spend time in prison for doing so. Yes, about as low as one could sink. A lot has been said about the depravity of these men – personally I think Joe is the most likely of the three to be a sociopath, is devoid of conscience. My guess is that Dylan, at least “high” Dylan, is as malleable as Silly Putty and has no spine whatsoever. While I think Victor was not there for the killing, clearly his moral compass is completely off kilter as well, and my guess is that he hangs on to a ridiculous notion that there’s no reason for Joe and Dylan to be imprisoned, that THAT wouldn’t bring Robert back – a pathetic Tammy Wynette rendition of “Stand By Your Man”.
you can call me anything you like 🙂
Ooops….that was to Bea. And anyone else, really.
Wrote the below thinking it was going to show up as a response to FCH. Oh well. Anyway, I wanted to add that for some reason I don’t think it was a matter of Joe not feeling a pulse. He had to be breathing, he had to have a pulse, and the ME noted that Robert was alive when stabbed and the cause of death was the stab wounds.
I don’t know if Joe had a bad case of internalized homophobia or not – I think it was simpler than that. What he did to Robert was going to land him in jail, shatter his perfect little life – and he wasn’t willing to allow this. His huge ego may have shielded his low self-esteem for all I know – and I haven’t a clue if sociopaths or NPDs have low self-esteem or not. I assume not as to sociopaths but less certain about folks with Narcissistic Personality Disorder.
FCH and Bea,
Narcissists very often experience self-loathing and self-pity. Sometimes the over-achievement symptoms of NPD are a result of the self-loathing. The self-pity when they don’t get what they want.
To quote an internet reference, NPD is a “paradoxical combination of self-centeredness and worthlessness.”
And regarding this, I still believe Joe thought Robert was a cut above him, and may have resented him deep down inside. Everyone loved Robert. I’m sure Joe knew he wasn’t viewed in the same kind of light.
Indeed, CD. Robert’s own personal Iago.
I agree, CD. I think there was rejection, jealousy, envy. I think he grew to despise him deep down. And the drugs really brought a lot of things to the surface. And that is what gave him the ability to rape his friend.
If Michael was already there, then it is possible that both Prices and Dyl were watching Project Runway — while indulging in their pharmaceutical vices — just before Robert arrived. How do you go from weeknight TV viewing to murder in less than two hours? Just add tap water in a cramped kitchen?
#2: I always thought the electro-stim theory was odd. Aren’t gadgets like that the kinds of things you buy to spark up your sex life after things have gone a bit flat? Why would you use it, first thing, with a new “partner” you have obsessed on to the point of drugging and raping him?
Don’t guys start off on a more conventional foot, then move on to the weird hardware later? (Guys…?) And, using it on Robert seems kind of a remote sex move to pull on someone you’re really into. Think about it; Joe’s been in a heat for this guy for years. Wouldn’t he do something more direct? Get himself off?
It always seemed like a stretch. And yes, all kinds of things could’ve been washed off in that shower.
With the type of lifestyle they were into, toys like the electro-stimulator are often used for control, and I could see these guys getting a charge out of seeing someone who is incapaciated getting off by having such a stimulator attached to them. I don’t want to get descriptive, but sometimes when a tens unit is used, a steel rod is placed in the ureathra that is also attached to the wiring. The rest of the wiring can be attached to the head and shaft of the penis. I wonder if the ME checked to see if there may have been damage to the ureathra. X-tube.com is filled with amateur videos of gentleman doing such things in the gay section, and if you can get over the initial shock of watching someone doing this to himself, it is very educational. I think electro-stimulation could very well have been part of the sexual attack. Maybe its one of Joe’s fetishes. Or Dylan’s. Or Victor’s.
I’m pretty sure someone grabbed it and texted!
I read an interesting article about alcohol abuse, drug abuse and crime awhile back. I will have to look for it, but the gist of it was that unlike the crimes depicted on television the vast overwhelming majority of crimes are committed by intoxicated participants who know their victims. Unlike the television, film and even literary trope of the scheming mastermind that is the intellectual equal (almost) of the brilliant detective most criminals are bungling, severely intoxicated and acting on (bad) impulses and far from being masterminds. Joe certainly strikes me as this type of criminal, Dylan as well. The story of Joe unable to control his drinking at a company event indicates advanced alcoholism to me, add street drugs then add the presence of a live in prostitute (Dylan) and you have a nasty ugly mess that poor Robert could not have even conceived of when he thought it would be a pleasant convenience to stop over with his old mentor and friend. Joe is not some über Moriarty-like criminal virtuoso, he is revolting, bungling inebriated loser who lost his values and sense of what is right and what is just a figment of his own sense of entitlement.
In a very real sense this trial is over, the current trial that is, and the important thing, the thing to not lose sight of, is the trial that is to come ~ the murder trial. Careful attention needs to be paid as the rats abandon the sinking ship. It is already pretty much clear that Dylan is going under the bus, as indeed it has been clear since Joe began hinting around to the constabulary that Dylan was mentally ill. The only question that remains is to what degree the other two are going to get away with their role (whatever it was or wasn’t) in the attack on and subsequent murder of Robert Wone and the attempted cover-up that resulted from those criminal acts. That all folks.
Former Crack Ho, that’s the funniest thing I’ve read all week.
Eds,
An item of interest in today’s Washington Post:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/01/25/AR2010012502341.html
A 78 year old granny likes to protest the Iraq war. She’s been arrested 20 times. Normally, the judges dismiss her charges, give her a small fine, or give her a day in jail.
However, on Monday she was “unlucky” enough to appear before Judge Lynn Leibovitz (does that name ring a bell to any Wone murder case followers?), who sentenced her to 25 days in jail and one full year of probation.
Hope the trouple has a chance to read the article and digest it’s implications for them.
Sweet.
Woah, Judge Leibovitz does not fuck around. Joe better do some serious thinking about reality now that his ridiculous attempt to have the charges dismissed was summarily brushed off by Madame Judge.
And Connolly needs to start earning his money and separate his client from the other two, the sooner the better.
I finally listened to the tape only relatively recently. Taken in a vacuum, it could be legit. People have different reactions in a crisis and that exhibited by Victor could be one of them. But taken in conjunction with the facts as we know them, it is clearly a fraud. If a dear friend was stabbed in your house, would you tell 911 that “somebody” has been stabbed? If someone broke into your house to do it, would you say there was “someone in our house evidently” (evidently?? what a weird, offhand word choice) rather than “OMG, we’ve had a break-in” or use the word “intruder” rather than “burglar?”
“Intruder” seems carefully selected to emphasize an outsider and given Victor’s delay in using the term also seems to have been prompted – something that might be audible on the enhanced tape. And it has long been painfully obvious that there never was an “intruder.”
The narrative of Victor’s travels up and down and around the house are also bizarre – who cares where you are – how is the victim? It’s establishing a false record, providing Victor with convenient distance from the crime scene and “fear” of going downstairs because the “intruder” might still be in the house. More importantly, the business about the towel and Joe applying pressure is demonstrably false. There was not enough blood on the scene, on Joe or on the towel. What he describes was not taking place.
And why? Because they knew that Robert was already dead. The only thing in the call that might be genuine is when “Ma’am” breaks down in tears, but what is sad is that I don’t think the tears were for Robert. They sound like the tears of a man who suddenly realizes that his life has just been ruined.
Yes, indeed, HL.
Victor’s break down when the EMTs arrived seemed to be more for himself than for his friend. I believe he said at one point “I can’t believe this his happening.”
“I can’t believe this is happening” is indeed a ‘true’ statement – I agree his tears are far more for his shattered life and not Robert.
The lack of background noise during the 911 call – such as pleading with Wone to ‘hang in there’, hysteria over the stabbing of a dear friend, the panic of dealing with someone with ‘blood all over him’ – is consistent (and not in a good way) with the bizarre bahavior witnessed by responding EMTs (from the arrest affidavit):
“The behavior exhibited by Zaborsky, Ward, and Price alarmed W-1. Specifically, as a paramedic for more than ten years, W-1 has responded to hundreds of scenes involving victims who had been shot, stabbed, or otherswise injured by violent conduct. Generally, in W-1’s experience, inhabitants of the home will be yelling about what happened and trying to direct him, as a medical professional, to the location of the victim. At this scene, however, the observed conduct of Zaborsky, Ward, and Price “made the hair on the back of [W-1’s] neck stand up.”
Does Zaborsky – waiting at the front door for paramedics – offer to lead the EMT quickly to the location of his dying friend with a, “please come with me, I’ll show you exactly where he is”? No. Instead, Zaborsky doesn’t answer the EMT’s question about what is going on. Rather, the EMT can go only on what he overhears Zaborsky say into his cellphone; “something about a stabbing on the second floor.”
Upon the EMT making his way to the second floor, does Ward plead to the EMT to quickly help his stabbed friend and point him in the direction of the victim? No. In fact, Ward doesn’t even answer the paramedic’s question, “what’s going on?” Instead, Ward looks at the EMT and then just walks away into his room without saying a word.
Does Price frantically beg the EMT to help save his friend’s life? Sadly, no. Does he yell to the EMT to please help him take over applying pressure to the bleeding wounds? Obviously not, given that Price wasn’t even attending to the wounds like he and Zaborsky claimed:
“Price had his back to the door and was not applying pressure to Mr. Wone’s wounds or touching Mr. Wone in any way.”
The EMTs, with all of their experience, state that the behavior exhibited by the trouple was completely inconsistent with what they normally encounter at the scene of a victim of violence; namely, people in hysteria over a hurt or dying friend and people begging medical professionals for help. Nope, the trouple was doing everything they could to NOT talk to, guide, or help the EMTs.
Things that make you go ‘hmm?”
You will recall our visit from aka Karen walker last June when we were scrutinizing the 911 call. I hope she will forgive this wholesale re-posting of her post but here it is (some of it):
aka: Karen Walker
June 11, 2009 at 9:31 PM
“…It is to be noted that VZ was a wanna-be thespian throughout middle school, high school & early college. When I hear the 911 call, I am hearing a desperate man conjuring up the performance of his life…his high (almost falsetto) voice is reminiscent of his days on stage — that is, it is not his natural voice. This is further evidenced by the recording of his outgoing office message which is abailable [sic] on YouTube.”
So, HL, I would vote no to the bestowing of the gold statue upon Victor.
When Joe asks “what time is it?” and received the answer 11:54 by the 911 operator, Joe incorporated that timing into his statement at the police department. When he suggested to the police that an intruder scaled the fence, he said, “my best guess is that it was sometime between 11:10 and 11:43.” Seems like he was creating a mental timeline.
Perhaps a little “hetero hate” for their straight friend Robert? Internalized homphobia combined with drug abuse combined with feeding the mind with S&M escapades while high….perfect storm.
If they gave Robert GHB in his water, it would take effect fairly quickly. They could have “helped” him upstairs within 15 minutes upon his arrival. Depending on what they had set up already upstairs (syringes, toys, etc) it could very well have been 11:00 ish. And, most important, Michael may have already been there. So the carrying away of evidence didn’t require that much of a wait.
I am still thinking they thought they killed Robert with the drugs/paralytic and panicked, and came up with the stabbing/indruder story.
And don’t you find it funny that while Victor didn’t know the state of Robert or whether he was breathing or really anything going on in the room, he could immediately identify that the knife the intruder used was from their own kitchen.
FC says: “he could immediately identify that the knife the intruder used was from their own kitchen.”
That’s an interesting point, FC. It has been mentioned many times on this site that the knife set was kept in Dylan’s closet. I think the knife from that set was in regular rotation in their kitchen, and they may have forgotten that the matching piece was in a box in Dylan’s closet. They probably never thought that knife, which they disposed of, would ever be connected to the the house. Which makes me believe Joe was the principal assailant. Dylan may have remembered the knife’s matching piece if he had been the person handling the knife.
Clearly Victor told the cops that the fake knife was from their kitchen set – but I assumed that Dylan’s good knife was on the second floor, or otherwise why not let the intruder “use” it? I think it was kept with the set, which is why they used a substitute. But that’s just my take.
As always, the switched knives are one of the most puzzling elements of the case. As someone said, why didn’t they just move Dylan’s knife set into the kitchen? That would’ve bolstered the elves or Chimera theory, such as it was. The fact that the supposed weapon didn’t fit the wound and was manually smeared with blood was a huge red flag to the cops. Why did they risk this?
It suggests to me that they changed plans in mid stream. After the body was cleaned and the linens and knife disposed of, they had (for some reason) to fall back on the wee folk. Maybe their heads cleared a bit and they did the math. I don’t know. But it’s the best scenario so far considering how fouled up the crime scene was.
And – if Robert’s body was showered to remove DNA, why was there a substantial amount of Robert’s own left on his bare skin? And no one else’s? It’s possible the body was (originally) cleaned for removal.
Mike says: “And no one else’s?” Maybe because they didn’t ejaculate on Robert. It might be that easy of an answer.
Also: “why was there a substantial amount of Robert’s own left on his bare skin?”
Substantial to a medical examiner may be different than what we would consider substantial. Perhaps the majority of semen was rinsed away, but “substantial” amounts were left in crevices and folds. Away from eye view.
That mendacious tidbit about the knife is damning indeed and I fervently hope that the prosecution can make clear (really really clear) to the jury the implications of that particular stupid, and self-serving lie.
I’m not convinced they slipped him something in his drink. To me, that spells absolute premeditation of everything.
I lean toward premedidation of a more immediate type, not lengthy planned type.
Murder motive: To avoid rape. Absolutely, Bea. You figure they may have thought it better to off the witness and hope for the best, than to have Robert squeal on them SURELY ruin their lives.
How in the world do you assault an old “friend?” Murder him? Lie to his widow? Act as though you are the wronged party in subsequent legal proceedings? This is what I find so disturbing, why I find this site so compelling and why I want to see justice done. If Bea is right, Joe is a true sociopath.
My latest take on this: I agree with others here that Joe had long been interested in Robert. He may have taken the planned sleepover as a sign that Robert was finally interested in reciprocating. No way had he tried to make a move before – Robert never would have considered staying there if he had. Suspicion that Joe might take things the wrong way might explain Robert’s vacillation at one point regarding where he planned to stay that night. I agree J&D were drugged up in anticipation of the visit. There was no meeting in the kitchen. Robert showed up and could see that something was clearly off and said “I’m really tired let’s catch up tomorrow.” If only he had found a way home. Dylan eggs on a frustrated Joe and they quickly conspire to drug and assault Robert, yes, maybe because “he really wants it.” Mistakenly thinking he’s accidentally suffocated or OD’d (agree with FC here), Dylan stabs him to make it look like the work of an “intruder,” actually killing him. Clean-up begins around 11. Victor stumbles on the scene and screams, then uses his PR savvy to plan the 911 call and official “story.” This also explains the recent realignment at the last court hearing: Joe can pin the stabbing on Dylan, the obstruction on Dylan and Victor and Robert’s “friend” can cop a plea on assault for rolling over on the others. Unless they all continue to stick together.
Hoya says: “No way had he tried to make a move before – Robert never would have considered staying there if he had.”
My gut instinct about Robert tells me differently. Robert was such a good guy. And I imagine forgiving would be one of his qualities.
I wouldn’t doubt Joe may have tried to tempt Robert before. Robert would have blown it off.
“Forget about it.” Maybe years go by and Joe decides to try again. Joe wants what Joe wants when he wants it. This time Robert is married and finds Joe’s advances insulting to his beloved Cathy. This time Robert gets angry, which gives Joe the perfect opportunity to use force. I think something set Joe off.
Hoya – This is where I get hung up. I maybe mistakingly called it “motive.”
Even though horrible, I can envisioned either a drug-fueled spur of the moment killing or even a well planned one (see: Leopold and Loeb).
But what I can’t wrap my arms around is a sexual assault committed against a friend, either spur of the moment or well planned.
How could they NOT think that Robert would have zero memory of that afterwards or the next morning. Maybe there are drugs that wipe out memory, but how could his assailants be so certain that Robert would neither remember something from the previous evening’s assault, or at the very least think something very odd happened?
What are the morning after effects of a date rape drug? What would be the physical discomfort he may have felt from an assault?
How could any attacker think they could get away with the sexual assault without Robert realizing something anything afterwards. Unless getting away with it required that he be silenced (see: Leopold and Loeb).
I’m back to where I started from over a year ago. Dazed and confused.
Craig says: “But what I can’t wrap my arms around is a sexual assault committed against a friend, either spur of the moment or well planned.”
But Craig, you are a normal, healthy-minded man. Of course, you can’t understand it. Neither can I, but people rape and murder their loved ones and friends everyday. Crimes against children. Matricide. Patricide. People kill their wives and husbands. Their own children. You can’t open the paper without reading something horrific that someone did to someone else. Why would those crimes be different from what happened on Swann Street? They aren’t.
“How could any attacker think they could get away with the sexual assault without Robert realizing something anything afterwards.”
That’s one of the reasons I don’t think it was planned. In a rational moment, I don’t think Joe et al would have commited this crime. Drugs and anger can make someone snap.
Drugs, anger and NPD.
And if a sociopath, Joe never looked back – could look Robert’s widow in the eye and serve as pallbearer (as he did).
And acting as a pallbearer allowed him to play the mourning friend in front of a wide audience. Much as he reportedly did when he returned to work to relate “his” ordeal to colleagues at Arent Fox.
Part of how I get around the tough questions is by assuming that Dylan had to have a central role, motivated by a mix of envy, desire and jealousy. A while back someone speculated that Robert might have made critical remarks about Dylan. Maybe he saw what was happening with Joe and was trying to convince him to get rid of the drugs and his “tenant.” Maybe this is one of the things that set Joe off and maybe Dylan too.
Could be, HL.
I suppose Kathy could be called to testify as to what Robert discussed with Kathy about Joe prior to his murder. Since it’s information received directly from the deceased, it wouldn’t be hearsay.
But then again, Robert may not have known EXACTLY what was going on under Joe’s roof. The murder investigation blew the lid off of Joe’s “dirty little secret.” Seems Joe was selective about what he disclosed and to whom. There have been other friends of Joe and Victor’s that have posted on this site that began to feel uncomfortable about Joe et al. They distanced themselves. I wonder if Robert began to feel the same.
Why was Mr. Price so quiet during the call? But then the same Mr. Price could not stop yammering to the cops after Diane Durham arrived? Were the drugs wearing off because the “ket” no longer held his own tongue?
Mr. Ward is by nature saturnine. Silence is his normal in his lonely gloom. So, his icy silence during the call is not out of character. A “fugue state,” indeed.
maybe he was busy coaching.
:::tapping on microphone:::
Is this thing on?
I was wondering the same thing… At least spam is coming in.
I was also wondering if the evidence that the Govt will submit to support sexual assault allegations comes under the Uncharged Conduct provisions in Leibovitz’s scheduling order (as seen here in this lonely post) and what shape they may take.
Is this where Judge Lynn determines whether they are probative or prejudicial in nature? And if they are ruled in bounds it that what allows Kirschner to bring them up in front of a jury.
We’re still trying to get the transcript from the 15 Jan status hearing. There was a lot of discussion on the U.C.s
Craig,
Do you know the status of the DNA testing of the comforter sample from Dylan’s room and/or the samples from the drain traps from the patio?
I don’t think we’ve seen any reference to either. Not in documents or in discussion at the hearings
As mentioned (in this lonely post), Patrick Martin did say 90%-95% of discovery has been turned over. Maybe those items constitute the last 5%?
It’s crucial evidence. Maybe they are being extra diligent with it.
I’d like to think so – but I do wonder if the blood on Dylan’s comforter were Robert’s if that wouldn’t be reason to up the charge to murder, at least as to Ward.
And if they determine Robert’s blood is in the trap outside (or in the shower), they are in deep doo doo.
John Grisham says: “My problem with this site is that the current profile/posts of its very frequent posters are not especially welcoming to the types of people who may have done drugs with the three pigs.”
I say: “huh?”
Types of people? What types of people may have done drugs with the defendants, John? If you are referring to people that participate in the S&M scene, I will say this for the upteenth time……I am well acquanted with the S&M lifestyle. I have/had many friends that participated in that lifestyle. I have circulated amongst that same crowd. And I again, will state for the record, that those people were some of the finest people I have ever known. If you are referring to Crew Clubbers…..if boys want to have clandestine sex, I don’t give a flip. My dearest friends in the world are gay men and have done their share of hanky panky in places like that.
Re drugs….I’ve done ’em myself. I don’t fault anyone for drug use. I did my time at The Pier, Lost and Found, and Tracks. Not to mention, The Phase and The Other Side. Drugs….oy, I’ve seen plenty. Who would I be to fault someone for recreational drug use?
I do, however, fault people for murdering their friends, or supporting people who murder their friends.
CD says, “I do, however, fault people for murdering their friends, or supporting people who murder their friends.”
I do too.
John says:
John Grisham
February 25, 2010 at 3:54 PM
“Really Bea. You broadcast that I am the ‘ultimate in lying and deceit.”’
So sad.”
John, you are doing nothing but bringing up old posts and stirring the anti-female pot you seem to have simmering on your stove today.
No, I’m cooking lentils on my stove at this moment. You are smoking somethig else if you think I am anti women (wymen).
Actually, it’s womyn. But I don’t take issue with the “e.”
Thank you for your fine corrective.
This morning, before work, I posted my desire to NOT 0ff-put any new members to this community, and weighed (once again) John’s and Lurker’s points. I asked them to comment on what us ‘old guard’ could do, what was it that we were missing.
With a break in my day, I am surprised to see that you, John, ignored that entirely and dredged up a string from early February and accuse me of “broadcasting” that you “are the ultimate in lying and deceipt”.
I have no idea where that came from or what it’s about. CD seems spot on in wanting to stir the pot. I thought we were getting somewhere, so it was a surprise. Hope the lentils are good.
Well I’m just confused. If I’m not the puritanical force of dykeness and you aren’t; then who is (?) and how are they acting as stealth enablers of the defense’s fathoms deep strategy to turn the site into a rejecting nanny-state where no male lover of his fellow man dares to tread?
You got me. I am, of course, proud as pie of my dykeness, though PC I’ve never been. I liked the ‘wimmin’s’ festivals and such back in the day, but that was for chasing women more than politics. Of course I’m a feminist, just like I’m a leftist and an Aries and a Jets fan.
puritanical and dyke don’t seem to go together. Hmm.
The Sounds of Silence post turned out to be not so silent afterall…
We’ve been lucky that ever since the first post went up in December 2008, a dedicated group, at first small and now growing larger, has congregated here to try and make some sense of a senseless crime.
The discussion here has long been focused, purposeful and remarkably tame given the difficult subject matter and the very raw nature of the allegations. Pretty rare for any site let alone one that asks readers to dive head first into the darkest recesses of human behavior.
Tempers may occasionally flare and nerves may fray, but the four of us are thankful for the efforts of some very smart and motivated people.
Short of sky writing and walking up and down K Street with a sandwich board, we’ve made every effort to grow the readership here, especially in communities where we obviously need help and guidance: legal, forensics, medical and S&M.
We welcome any new reader, new theory and anything short of outright hate speech and personal attacks. We happily give free rein to nearly everything else.
Everyone has played pretty nicely in the sandbox so far and we fully expect it to continue that way – even when things really start to heat the fuck up, which it appears we are on the cusp of.
The filings and motions are going to start flying and as May 10 draws closer we’ll need everyone, and even some newbies, to keep their thinking caps on, their teeth sharp and their eyes on the prize.
That was too many words and a roundabout way of saying thanks and never forget we’re on the same team.
What would Xena do (with John)?
I love John’s commentary on the case, but his commentary on the case watchers is far less appealing. His fears are unwarranted. The womynly nature of a handful of the steadfast posters here, as I noted before, will outweigh (not literally, but in the long-term) the sapphic support for Team Price, John.
At any rate, powerful women of whatever sexuality will determine the ultimate outcome of this case — Judge Lynn, Cathy L., Diane Durham, and Dr. G., oh my!!
CD, meant to say John was stirring the pot, not you. John, give me some answers on what exactly we are doing wrong in your opinion. When you get this far along, of course we’ve formed opinions, and while always willing to weigh things differently, it’s hard to crack the code for a complete reassessment. Just looking for some suggestions from you and Lurker. I like hearing from new folks – Drowsy was great. Ben drove me nuts with the “I have photos to prove it – not” nonsense but his arguments made my opinions stronger because his analysis was so weak.
I’ve learned a lot here. Sorry if you haven’t.