Will the “Real” Killer Please Stand Up
Recently, the editors here at WMRW.com gathered for dinner to discuss the case with a friend who has known the defendants. His take on the case has evolved. When he first heard about the murder in August of 2006, he thought for sure it was an intruder. Over the next two and a half years, he held that opinion.
It wasn’t until the affidavit in support of Dylan Ward’s arrest was released in late October 2008 that his mind changed. He cites many reasons why he doesn’t believe there was an intruder who murdered Robert Wone, but for him, there is one phrase from the affidavit that stands out.
Knife Recovered from Guestroom
The “real” killer.
On page 10 of the original affidavit, it reads:
Price volunteered that police might not find the “real killer’s” DNA on the knife because the “real killer” might have been wearing a glove.”
The use of the words “real killer” seems to say several things at once.
First, Price uses the term “real killer” when explaining why his DNA could be found on the knife. He is immediately explaining the situation to the police rather than trying to get help for his injured friend.
Forensic psychologists say that people who are guilty will often offer explanations for the situation, and why they are not involved. Where the innocent try to help an injured person, the guilty try to deflect blame.
This isn’t the first time explanations were offered by the defendants that evening. In Victor Zaborsky’s 9-1-1 phone call to the MPD, he explains several times what he says happened in the house. Zaborsky discussed the “intruder”, that the intruder had one of “their knives,” how they “heard a chime.” Price followed up with his own explanations.
Dylan even got into the act when Victor first saw him coming halfway down the stairs and the first words out of his mouth after sleeping through the entire episode were, “Was the backdoor left open?” So much time to offer explanations, yet so little time to get help for their friend.
Second, it sets up a dichotomy between the “real killer” and someone else, presumably the opposite which would be the “fake killer.” Why wouldn’t Joe Price just say that police might not find the killer’s DNA because the killer might have been wearing a glove? Why at that moment did he find it important to insert the word “real” in front of the word “killer”, not once, but twice, according to the affidavit?
The other dichotomy it sets up is real vs. imaginary, which starts down the road of truth vs. illusion. Which is it?
The language we use offers a view into what we are thinking when we say it. Inserting the adjective “real” into his explanation of the killer, we have a window into how Joe Price’s mind was thinking when police arrived. If the “real” killer wore a glove, then what was the “fake” killer doing?
Does it indicate that Joe Price was already thinking of the evening’s events in terms of truth vs. illusion? Was the use of the word “real” a Freudian slip of the tongue that even controlling Joe Price’s mind couldn’t control?
For our friend and host, it was one adjective that forever changed his mind about what happened that night.
-posted by David
This is excellent analysis! I hope the prosecution delves into this aspect. Could you build a case (or part of it) around this? In other words, would forensic psychology hold up in court?
The events that night surely point to guilt on the side of the three men. The intruder case is just not feasible- but how to prove guilt here? This argument makes perfect sense to me, but will it stand in court?
Seems to me, Joe’s use of “the real killer” indicates that Joe was expecting to be blamed.
David says: “Forensic psychologists say that people who are guilty will often offer explanations for the situation, and why they are not involved. Where the innocent try to help an injured person, the guilty try to deflect blame.”
I think a good example of what David says above is the Jon Benet Ramsey murder. When her father discovered her body, he immediately scooped her up and brought her upstairs. His mind was NOT on the crime scene, but on his daughter. He thought nothing of preserving the scene. His sole thought was to cradle his daughter’s body.
Joe’s mind was swirling with thoughts of the crime scene. The knife. The door. The time. Dylan. Dylan’s innocence. His innocence. Everything by Robert.
Very interesting post, David.
Everything BUT Robert, I meant to say.
It’s like Joe’s inner dialogue was saying- “you (police) have mistaken me for the killer, I’m not the “real killer”- the real killer might have been wearing a glove”
But Joe- no one was pointing fingers at that time- you volunteered it, therefore, you were already in defense mode. Why would you be defensive if you had nothing to hide?
This is one of the greatest posts I have read so far- thanks!
So does the friend who had you over for dinner have an opinion as to which of the three did it?
Oh yes, syntax is all. Interesting that the tightly wound Joe just could not contain this curious language construction. I think it tells us a lot about desperation and the irrational scenarios that quite possibly presented themselves as plausible scenarios to the minds of the participants; followed by the need to impress and reimpress this alternate plot (as it were) on their own minds.
The mind, even a very capacious mind, even a very crafty mind, simply can not contain all the threads of the plot and maintain a picture perfect verisimilitude of innocence simultaneously.
The need in the frantic first hours of dissemination in the wake of this appalling event, the compulsion to reiterate the plot, the various iterations that reanimate suspicion as they fall on the ear (or eye when reading) and ring false have “turned” the acquaintance that you speak of. What about Victor? I wonder if it would be possible to isolate him and go through these appalling “tells,” (like in poker) most significantly his own during the 911 call, one by one and demonstrate to him that the center just can not and will not hold. Maybe then he would defect?
Eds, does your dinner guest know if Joe has a history of lying?
Joe’s personality also fits that of a pathological liar.
CDinDC,
I don’t think he was in a situation where Joe’s history of lying would come up. He knew them socially, so I imagine this wouldn’t be a topic of conversation. I think a conversation of that type might be between two people in a more private setting. But we have learned more about his personality, and are digging up supporting documentation.
David, co-ed
I see….so this individual wasn’t close enough to Joe to have experienced anything of that sort.
Sometimes pathological liars will bolster their stories, etc. with whomever they come in contact with. Sort of a “oh, yeah…I know him” or “I’ve been there”, when really then don’t or haven’t.
Keep that angle in mind in your “digging.” 😀
Thank you, Editors and the unknown dinner guest. Who knew that diagramming the defendants’ sentences would provide some of the most damning evidence yet?
Have there been other defectors from the “Defend Price at any Price” group in the federal capital? The trouple’s fan club in my part of Virginia, never large, has dwindled, thanks in part to this blog and the Duggan series.
Can someone please tell me Mrs. Wone’s alabi in all this? Has she never been a suspect? Was she questioned? When I read the Post articles, I must admit several items made me wonder what she was really feeling before all this happened. I do not specifically think she is guilty, but it bothered me that she did not seem to have been questioned. Thoughts?
the much more interesting question, dear brian, is the location of depressed dylan’s knife. let’s answer that first, and then you can start/continue your smear campaign. SHAME.
This is not a smear campaign. I am simply seeking information that I did not know, so I have a fuller picture of the story. Nothing I read said anything, so it is a gap in my understanding. To ask this question is not shameful. It is a necessary part of seeking the truth. If I were an investigative reporter, I would try to cover more bases that did the Post writer.
Brian,
Kathy Wone has submitted to extensive questioning from police. In the affidavit, they note that Kathy told them about how the Robert set up and planned to stay at Swann Street several weeks in advance of his stay, she noted that he did not have any medical appointments in the weeks prior to his murder, which could have explained the multiple puncture wounds found on his body. She has also had to endure, I have to imagine, some very uneasy quesions from the police about her marriage with Robert, which as the affidavit states, she has done. I think it is very clear the Kathy Wone has worked consistently with the MPD and the US Attorney’s office thoughout this ordeal.
David, co-ed.
Everyone I have spoken to in the gay community thinks the ONLY and SOLE reason Robert Wone was at Swann St. was for sex. I don’t buy that at all (for the record, I am gay, too). I am distrubed by the general attitude, that somehow it was Robert’s fault for being there. Very sad. This trial cannot start soon enough.
Yes, I agree. She strikes me as a cleanliness freak, so would definitely be inclined to clean up any mess she made from killing her husband. She’s probably pretty crafty, too, and that’s how she was able to slip in and out w/o anyone really noticing. In addition, she was probably able to easily get the knife out of DW’s knife set in his bedroom to place on the nightstand next to the bed b/c DW was probably passed out. Her fingerprints should be all over it — unless of course she wiped them off — but then why not leave the original knife and wipe that off. Hmmmm interesting….
I have to say, it seems like a very strange question, “Brian.”
You may want to read earlier posts. Mrs. W was questioned — many times. Not sure where you got that info. from. What you didn’t see, was an Affidavit for her arrest as there was no physical evidence tying her to the crime scene, no inconsistent statements, no credible evidence that she was jealous or involved in any way.
Forget the knife. Let’s just focus on the clean up — the obvious clean up. Now — is that something an intruder who does not live there — with 3 people “asleep” do after they’ve murdered someone???
yes, little dylan (who fat joe blurted out as suffering from mental illness) was sound asleep by 10 pm because he was such a productive member of society and needed to get up early because so many people depend on him . . .and he was so tired from the productive day that he just completed that he just crashed by 9:30 . . . puh-leaze!
Brian, which statements in the Duggan series would possibly make you suspect Kathy Wone?
One potential explanation — Aunt Marcia may be allowing stray gentleman callers for the trouple (such as “Brian”) to use her personal computer. For her own safety, she really needs to put her foot down instead!
Kathy Wone did not murder her husband. That is ridiculous. Perhaps Brian needs to read more about this terrible crime before jumping in and doing this red herring thing. Start with the arrest affidavits.
I did not accuse her. I said that none of the reports I read said anything about her alabi. You have all provided me more information, which is all I sought. In all crimes of this nature, it seems the spouse is often asked questions first. But the Post reporter said nothing about that, so I was left confused. You should not read such questions as ‘accusations” or as ‘shameful.” It is simply a question. That is how the truth is achieved. Do not be afraid. I just wanted more information.
wonderful points, brian. now let’s turn your curiousity and focus to dylan ward. let’s search for the truth on his rumored mental illness, his rumored drug use, his missing knife, the lack of meaning (partner, kids employment, home, etc. . .) in his life, his lack of direction and motivation. brian, what other questions about dylan, who was only a room away at the time the “real” killer was in his home, would you like answers too — don’t be afraid to ask dylan here. what does your heart and mind say to you about dylan, brian?
The Post reported that KW was questioned substantially after the crime.
Just to put an end to the speculation by people who have not been closely following the case, this is what was reported soon after the murder:
Kathy Wone was home in Oakton, Virginia when Joe Price called to tell her Robert had been stabbed and she should get on over to GWU Hospital. She rushed over there with family members but Robert had already been pronounced dead by the time they arrived. As far as I know, she has completely cooperated with the police, participated in the press conference a year after the murder (Price, Z., Ward did not attend despite claiming to care about Robert and wanting the killer to be found), and did not lawyer up and clam up around the time of Robert’s funeral (as the 3 residents did). None of the residents have spoken to the media either. Pretty odd behavior for people who had a friend murdered in their home by an “intruder.”
But what exactly is Mrs. Wone’s alabi? That is, specifically, is there proof she was at home at the time of the crime? Did anyone see her? If I were the three men in that house, I would also be quiet because it seems to world has already convicted one of them.
Joe Price called her from scene to let her know Robert had been stabbed. There is no earthly way she could have stabbed robert, cleaned the crime scene, escaped from the house undetected and travel back to Virginia in time it take Joe’s call.
Unless she can teleport herself. Hmm…maybe that’s it, Brian. Mrs. Wone teleported herself to 1509. She then stabbed her beloved husband to death, cleaned the crime scene, returned all cleaning supplies to their storage spaces, disposed of all cleaning products, etc., and then teleported herself BACK to Virginia.
Brilliant, Brian. I think you solved the crime.
Not so fast CDinDC, Brian’s theory doesn’t yet account for Dick Cheney’s obvious involvement.
Was it a landline call, or her cellphone? If it was a cellphone, she could have been anywhere. That is still not an alabi. Was she at home? Look, I don’t want to accuse anyone. My only point is the Post article seemed far too slanted to one conclusion, but I was not at all convinced by it of that conclusion. The guys at the house could have cleaned up the mess since they knew they looked guilty (what would you do if you found a dead body suddenly in your own house?), but I am not at all convinced they actually killed the guy. It makes no sense to me. That is why I think there may be another motive. Other relations? Business contacts?
Brian said: “The guys at the house could have cleaned up the mess since they knew they looked guilty (what would you do if you found a dead body suddenly in your own house?)…”
I would first and foremost check to see if my friend was actually dead, not just wounded, and call on my cell phone seeking medical attention for him while staying by his side every second in case he regainedconsciousness (so he would not be alone). I would call an ambulance and be probably be a screaming mess on the phone with the dispatcher regardless of if I thought he was dead or not (I could be wrong). In am certain that convoluted concepts like where the knife came from, awkwardformulations like “intruder” and querulous queries as to the exact time would not enter into the conversation.
Otherwise, I would leave everything around me untouched.
All of this is just basic common human decency and common sense combined.
Exactly what AnnaZ said.
Brian, Mrs. Wone has been cleared by the police and there has never been even the tiniest hint of a hint that she was, or even could have been, involved in this hideous crime. I have every confidence that telephone records place her where she said that she was. Cell phone records not only show time and date but can be examined for location, pretty much anyone who watches TV and even some like me who don’t watch TV know this simple fact.
I think that if you want to come on this site and play amateur sleuth, which is after all what we are all doing, you will have to do better than that.
Interestingly though, your pathetic comments and absurd speculations put me in mind of Joe. He seems to have the kind of mind, probably addled by years of alcoholism and drug abuse, that mocks up really absurd scenarios and presents them as potentially real possibilities (lawyers do this all of the time) and genuinely expects other people to be so baffled, intimidated, confused, prone to mistakes or plain stupid to counter them. I hope in this case that he has misjudged the DC Police Department.
I am simply trying to think outside the box, since the traditional paths have led no one anywhere. If you truly want to solve the crime, you may want to broaden your horizons a bit. But of course that would involve asking more questions than perhaps you are comfortable doing. What is it you want to do? Could it not have been someone else? If not Mrs. Wone, than another person? If you don;t ask, how wil you possibly find out? Please note I have never used a nasty term in any of my texts, as I feel my questions are fair. I would ask you to do the same. You cannot solve a crime and be afraid to ask questions.
My dear, Brian…….thinking “outside the box” isn’t really necessary in this case. It is so blatantly obvious that Robert Wone was NOT murdered by an intruder. The 3 defendants are responsible for this crime. Whether it be one of the defendants alone, or a combination thereof, or even a 4th party being involved (which I doubt, unless it was in the conspiracy/tampering category)…….in any of those combinations, the evidence points CLEARLY at Robert Wone being murdered by someone ALREADY IN THAT HOUSE.
And if there was a 4th party, I’m sure Joe et al would have dropped a dime on him so quick it would have made your head swim.
But, if you can come up with plausible EVIDENCE EVIDENCE EVIDENCE of an intruder, space man, relative, or whatever, dish it out.
But use the evidence at hand, as we all are.
And one more thing, Brian….if I were called to jury duty on this case, I would find the defendants guilty based on the evidence at hand. Not on my feelings….but on the evidence.
Evidence? I asked for evidence about Mrs. Wone’s alabi and got none, so far, except speculation and satisfaction that you are “sure the police did the right thing”, and such sureness surprises me in this case where the police seem to have bungled things so much. I would like to believe your theory, but it does not leave me convinced. I am not trying to prove you wrong… I just think perhaps there is something else going on. I also think there is far too much lurid fascination with the S&M scene. S&M does not a murderer make. I think you need to pull back from all of that. It seems to prejuice the discussion “too much,” and that holds true of the Post article.
I don’t care anything about S&M stuff that Joe and Dylan were doing on their own time – makes no difference to me. But the “evidence” of one/more of the defendants being guilty of at least conspiracy/tampering is set forth fairly succinctly in the affidavits. Circumstantial evidence is every bit as good as direct evidence – and I completely disagree with your prior statement that it’s “logical” for one to CLEAN the crime scene because they might LOOK guilty. Absolutely absurd. As for continuing to point fingers at Ms. Wone, I think that you’re either just on here for kicks to stir the pot (if you must do that, please leave Robert’s widow out of it – tacky and insensitive at a minimum) OR you’re a friend of the defendants who’s grasping for straws to believe Joe/Victor/Dylan are not at fault OR you’re one of the three trying out theories here for your defense purposes. I don’t intend to be mean, so if you’re truly trying to piece things together, I would suggest going back to reread the affidavit and sit down with the timeline – but recognize that it’s not ordinary to let one’s friend bleed to death while busying yourself with Comet and Lysol.
::applause::
I am none of the above. It is suprising not one of the three has pointed a finger at the other though. If they were so cold and calculating, I would think one would rat on the other by now. That is why I have a hard time believing it was them “for sure.” Even y’all seem to admit that something does not add up. That was the Post’s conclusion too. So I suggest looking elsewhere, instead of rattling around the same dead end. What about Mr. Wone’s work at Radio Free Asia? He had just come from a meeting there. Did he perhaps irk someone? That also intrigued me after reading the Post. Nothing about his business was mentioned at all.
Brian, sorry if I misjudged your intentions. I suspect it’s odd to be ‘late’ to this site and not want to try new theories on for size. Good for you on keeping an open mind. Because I’m gay, I’d love nothing more than to be wrong about the defendants’ guilt (individually or collectively) because I really hate to think of the stink this will put on the gay community (especially since Joe and Victor were gay poster boys). But I don’t see any masterful OUTSIDER/INTRUDER conspiracy taking place between 11 pm when they allegedly went to bed and 11:49 when Victor called 911. That they could fall asleep so quickly and deeply that they didn’t hear Robert being assaulted, stabbed, slowly dying; that they didn’t hear the Comet-and-Lysol crew washing walls and thumping down the steps to retrieve a kitchen knife (never minding why they may have used Dylan’s set from his bedroom) in order to wipe blood on it but remove the real murder weapon. And then for the defendants to be less than helpful in the investigation, concerned only for themselves/one another, when their friend’s body was barely cold.
If you go back and read posts, a number of theories have been postulated. Me, I think Victor is the only hope of having one of them tell the truth, as I suspect Joe and Dylan were both primary actors in the killing. But Victor seems (to this point, and to OUR knowledge) unwilling to do the right thing, either out of wrongheaded loyalty and love for Joe, fear for himself (no telling what Joe has told him), or some kind of OJ-style revisionist thinking about that night (it seems some are capable of rationalizing just about anything – me, I couldn’t sleep nights).
I think any scenario which does not involve complicity from one or more of the defendants is really hard to believe. Even the BEST operatives in the world would have a hard time getting in and out without detection, and if it was a ‘hit’ then why “frame” three guys by cleaning the place? Usually “hits” are “statements” – and there’s been zero info on here suggesting that Robert was the kind of person, or sufficiently “problematic” to anyone, to even harboring such a thought for long.
But assume that this is true, why during questioning, in a matter of hours after one’s friend has been murdered in your home, would you have “preplanned” a story that is focused on the time of “11:43” as when 911 was called (both Victor and Joe misstate this – an odd coincidence that they both remembered it incorrectly and both feel the need to mention it)? Why all use the word “intruder”? Why suggest the “intruder” could have worn gloves to hide fingerprints in speaking with COPS? They had to have concocted a “story” that they discussed for these “facts” to be interspersed during initial interviews that night.
When ALL the information is considered together, it just doesn’t make sense that the defendants don’t know more than they’re telling. And why NOT tell unless you’re hiding something of a very serious nature?
Joe is a lawyer. He knows what it takes to convict someone of any crime – and he knows that if all three refuse to cooperate, then a murder conviction is unlikely. But a conspiracy/tampering conviction seems quite likely, and the weight of that might, I HOPE, make Victor clear his head as he ponders a lengthy stretch in jail.
Not all of us agree – there are many here who think the entire night and murder were premeditated, though I don’t. I think it was first degree murder, however, in that one/more made the conscious decision to stab Robert Wone to death to cover up all the other things they did to him. Why they cleaned up the place – which works against an “intruder” theory – is a mystery to me, but my guess is that the plan to dispose of the body was thwarted and one can’t “unclean” a murder scene. Others think that Joe cleaned just to make the whole crime scene more difficult to understand. None of us “know” and none of us claims to “know”. But we can use the facts before us, along with common sense, and try to make sense of what happened that night AND keep the pressure on by trying to find new information.
Do read, do join in.
Nice post, Bea.
My only comments are that the majority of people on this website are not trying to figure out WHETHER the defendants were involved, but HOW the defendants were involved. Each of the defendants carry some level of complicity in this murder.
Thanks for the great post, Bea. I love you more every time I read your comments. I have stayed quiet for a few weeks, because I have nothing to add to your eloquent posts!
Thanks CD and WH.
Brian – As has been written here time and time again, neither the DC MPD, FBI or the US Secret Service have been given a free ride. This is a 3 year old unsolved case because of their collective, ham-handed investigation and approach.
We’re all for casting the net far and wide towards reasonable suspects, but you seem drawn to the most remote figure of all.
Regarding the supporting cast, Phelps Collins had his day in court today. More on that later this week.
-Craig, editor guy
Dear Craig. Thanks. That is all I intended to do was cast a wider net. “Questioning” does not mean “accusing.”
I don’t understand what exactly compelled you to look in the direction of KW or anyone outside the house? With just using the hard evidence presented: different knife; no towels were used to stop any bleeding – but they told the dispatcher they were doing just that; practically no blood on the bed RW was lying on (if they were scared somebody would think it was them, they would move him and change the sheets and wipe the blood off him? – there was a wipe mark); and then they would clean their house before they called 911 – and why, again would they do that to clean evidence that would obviously clear them if it was not them? It would actually be very plausible for it to be a DC intruder crime (simply due to the location and DC being one of the highest crime areas in the country) – but when they did all that, it changed the plausibility from that entirely. And psychologically, who in their right mind would do that upon realizing their friend had been murdered by an “intruder” moments before!!
I have another point I just thought of that you, Brian, fortunately pointed out w/o realizing. Why would all three stick together w/o one throwing the other under the bus? Well, who was crying at the scene when the police arrived? VZ. Why was only VZ crying and having a meltdown? B/c he was not involved in the killing. Only those who could have been involved in such an atrocious act could remain that emotionless, i.e., psychopath. The only 2 who really need to protect themselves (who were involved in the actual murder) is JP and DW. JP doesn’t have to worry about VZ rolling. VZ will never roll on JP, and he knows it, and VZ is too worried and focused on getting his and JP’s rel. back on track – w/o DW – eventually. The only person JP would possibly need to worry about rolling is DW – and JP seems to have taken care of that thus far. And there’s probably little inclination for DW to roll since he was equally involved if not more. So there you have it. All neat and sewed up — almost.
Agree that Joe is (apparently) doing a good job of juggling. Or is puppeteer a better analogy? I think juggling because there’s a chance that Joe may “drop” by accident either Dylan or Victor, and it will be ‘game over’. Interesting take that Dylan is more likely to throw the others under the bus but CAN’T because he was ‘right there’ in the killing. Joe can’t throw Victor or Dylan under the bus for the same reason (though I suspect he would in a nanosecond if it were possible – purely my speculation on his nature).
Which leaves us, again, with Victor. Many think the 911 tears were a performance. I think it was partly a rehearsed speech (which he screwed up twice) and partly a genuine meltdown. He’d not “collected” himself as Joe had, likely had less time to absorb all that had transpired and the repercussions to follow. But your post made me think – WHERE was Dylan during the 911 call? He wasn’t in the room with Joe. Both Dylan and Victor say that they first saw each other when Victor was on the phone, Dylan emerging from his room.
Taking “something” to “calm down” perhaps? I don’t think both Joe and Dylan can be sociopaths – statistically unlikely. Despite Dylan’s poor employment history, he is likely intelligent. Was he able to ‘step up’ to being collected and undergoing rigorous interrogation BECAUSE he was drugged to the gills (Mega Xanax?).
Going to the Cosi the next morning with “friends” seems absurd if you’ve suffered a terrible tragedy (losing your friend by murder) and then spending the night under suspicion. But it makes sense that Joe would want this – to hold court – only Dylan didn’t want to join in. Victor, loving and devoted fool, didn’t think he had a choice. But Joe left to “go get” Dylan (presumably from the police station). Yet Dylan didn’t want to join the ‘party’ – and Joe didn’t force him as he likely did Victor.
So did Joe and Dylan leave Victor there? Someone on here said they knew an interior designer friend who was present at the Cosi. Can they ask if Victor was taken home, or if Joe was off ‘working magic’ on the distraught Dylan – giving him some “one on one” time from the trouple?
So many danged questions.
Satistically improbable but not implausible. anti-social and sociopath are in essence the same, but there is debate b/t US and European criteria. Fromo my experience they tend to sometimes feed of each other…..
Huh, I must have missed further details on the Cosi thing. I would imagine VZ wanted to be there – not sure you could have kept him away…….
If it’s true and DWdidn’t want to be there and JP did, then it would seem that JP fits the term ASPD more. Absolutely no regard for what he did or the situation that occurred in their house less than 24 hours previous. If someone was murdered in my home and I went through that grilling directly after, the last thing I would want is to deal with going out in public and with friends.
It’s actually more comforting with this info. to know that DW may be the weak link. I originally thought VZ was, but b/c of his intense over the top devotion to JP, I do not believe that is the case – unless he is totally spurned by JP, which I’m pretty sure JP knows how to appease him so that doesn’t happen.
You ask “where was Dylan?” Maybe Dylan was busy with the disposal of “stuff.”
Bea, your theory that the house was cleaned because the original idea was to dispose of Robert’s body has grown on me. Maybe they were stupid enough to think they could say that Robert never showed up.
I’m anxious to find out when Victor got home.
The only thing I need to know to rule out Kathy Wone is the fact that she filed a wrongful death suit. Civil suits mean discovery and depositions. If she were in any way complicit in Robert’s murder she wouldn’t subject herself to a depo.
would love to see a video dep of the price sisters; that would be rich.
OT, but could I request that you cease always referring to the men as “she”? I and others are finding it increasingly offensive.
(BTW, by “She did it” I thought for the longest time that you were making a statement about the female renter.)
Themis, your posts have been very enlightening, particularly those addressing the crim. law/pro. issues. I was wondering if you (or any other legal eagles out there) think the res ipsa loquitur theory could be successfully applied in the Wone wrongful death civil suit. Typically we see the RIL theory raised in “classic” cases (such as the wayward barrel falling out out of the sky onto plaintiff, surgical tools left in plaintiff, etc.) Wone’s case wouldn’t be a typical one for sure, but it does possess key traits- i.e., a sleeping plaintiff, and the theory’s three recognized elements:
1. Harm wouldn’t ordinarily have occurred w/o someone’s negligence
2. The “thing” which caused the harm was under the exclusive control of the deft. @ the time of the likely negligent act
3. There must be an absence of a reasonable explanation as to how the harm occurred.
Also, was wondering if there’s any concept/doctrine in criminal law that mirrors or resembles torts’ res ipsa. I don’t believe there is, but it’s been a while since I studied crim.
NYer, can you elaborate a bit on this “RIL” theory for us non-legal readers? Thanks!
Wikipedia gives a good overview of the legal theory and its history. But thinking about it, RIL might be tough to apply here, since the facts indicate that, assuming defendants did tamper with murder weapon, they then effectively negated the plaintiff’s ability to prove that they had “exclusive control” of the “thing” that caused the harm (i.e., the knife). So then element #2 of RIL necessarily fails. But I suppose I originally raised the question of RIL based on a very simple notion:
While it may be hard here to prove this murder under the beyond-a-reasonable-doubt standard, proving wrongful death under the preponderance standard is a different matter altogether. Given the layout of the townhouse, and the victim’s room, a reasonable factfinder would find it more likely than not that no “intruder” could have possibly caused this injury.
Unless one of the three co-Ds flips, the wrongful death suit could potentially produce a much clearer picture of what actually occurred.
As for RIL, there is no criminal law corollary. However, jurors will be instructed that circumstantial evidence is as good as direct evidence and that while they cannot speculate they can use their common sense.
Proof beyond a easonable doubt does not equate to near certainty. Rather it is of often described as that level of proof reasonable people require when making important personal decisions such as to marry, to divorce, to have a child, etc.
Because the defendants are not charged with murder, my gut instinct is that the jurors will be more inclined to convict than if they had to decide who killed Robert and with what intent.
It’s for that reason that prosecutors and defense attorneys often fight over whether jurors should be instructed on a lesser included offense.
Clever friend, that one.
fascinating. and also, how lame is it to try and explain to police that a killer might wear a glove to prevent leaving prints. like, DC cops don’t investigate murder/ have half an ounce of gray matter but have to be guided to the possibility that killers often wear gloves? it’s just out of place. thus weird and suspicious.
The one thing they “HAD” to do was switch the knife. Why? It was the only thing that they couldn’t be sure to get their DNA off of and the only thing their DNA shouldn’t have been on. Everything else in the house was explainable as to why their fingerprints and DNA would be found there. This was surely JP’s idea. He thought he thought of everything………
Perplexed,
I guess I don’t really think their was much point in getting rid of the knife other than the fact that they would have to explain how “THE INTRUDER” got it out of Dylan’s room. The fact that their DNA might be on it would be explainable by the fact that they lived together and perhaps cooked meals together. And, the absence of THE INTRUDER’s DNA would then be explained by the gloves the “REAL KILLER” was wearing.
I still think it would be DNA and fingerprints. They would analyze exactly what position the fingerprints were in and whether it was consistent with the stabbing. In addition, I think it would be hard to clean it up perfectly (blood and all) enough that there was no evidence they did it. Think about it, if knife fits the stab wounds, their fingerprints are the “only” prints on it or there’s no prints and the knife has been cleaned — I still think that would have raised more suspicions than just switching out the knife and then there being no possibility. But that’s a good point raised….just not sure that’s what they were thinking…..why not then just put the knife set in the kitchen, etc…..Don’t get me started with the “real killer.”
Well said, Perplexed, but I have to agree with Curious that the real pickle was having the “intruder” find Dylan’s knife set in such a short time (while he’s “sleeping” in his room where it’s stored). The kitchen knife was an easier ‘sell’ that it would hastily be picked up by the “intruder” en route.
The defendants could have said that the knife (aka as the “missing knife”) was in the kitchen. They could have said they used it all the time. They just didn’t use the other two that were still in the case in Dylan’s room.
Joe’s a crafty guy. In addition to being an attorney. He may have intentionally muttled the crime scene to dilute it.
I think they had too many dinner parties for someone NOT to know where the knife was really kept. If it was kept in the kitchen ordinarily, then you are likely right that Joe “masterfully” created a strange red herring. But I think the drugs were still too greatly clouding his brain and he thought “crap, Dylan’s knife! Let’s go get one from the kitchen and get rid of this one!”. One thing seems to be clear, that Joe DID think that he was smarter than everyone, and that as long as he had some ‘wiggle room’ that he’d be able to avoid a murder rap. I don’t think he was seeing the whole future of a conspiracy/tampering charge, losing his job or his A-list standing, though. What can one really “think through” in 14 minutes? If it had been pre-planned in its entirety (long before Robert arrived) Joe would have thrown a cigarette butt (with a stranger’s DNA) in the courtyard – certainly wouldn’t have BOTH cleaned up AND called 911 so closely together (my opinion).
Oops – make that “I guess I really don’t think that THERE” was much point. Once an English major, always an English major.
Three clean stab wounds may have resulted from the violent actions of three different people on a body they presumed to be already dead. Joe must have concluded that it would be difficult to explain why a knife kept in Dylan’s room would have the fresh prints of all three housemates, in addition to the fact that the kitchen knife was more available to where they believed the “intruder” entered their sleepy, early-to-bed home of S&M enthusiasts.
You can clean a victim’s DNA off the blade. It’s much much more difficult to get it out of crevices in or around the handle. With PCR and mitochondrial testing, you need very little DNA to do testing.
Word-choice-wise, its also interesting that the three little sex piggies also agreed to use the expression of “intruder.” This word evokes the brand or product name of an anal sex toy. Perhaps this word choice inadvertently betrayed a concept that was still fresh in their minds and indeed, one that was recently in their collective hands. One that had been lubricated with Robert’s semen.
Their choice of words here infers that the piggies already knew that nothing from their house had been stolen.
Otherwise, one would think they would have been alarmed about a “robber,” “thief,” or “burglar” being in their house.
Penetrating analysis, Tom & John. I guess that Mr. Price was not the solid wordsmith-under-pressure that his corporate clients had thought he was. Nevertheless, his was the mind that came up with that portmanteau gem: culuket.
Give my regards to Sarah!
Didn’t someone say he was a trademark attorney? If so, that would explain it. No solid word-smithing-under pressure needed to fulfill that duty…..it’s all boilerplate stuff.
“boilerplate stuff”
There are set procedures one must follow to obtain any intellectual property protection (patent, trademark or copyright), but it’s not boilerplate, as you use it. Some cases, when unique, are prosecuted in short order. Others, not so, much.
But I believe Joe was a litigator. Trademark litigation can get as complex as any other litigation.
IP, 25 years, here.
IP lawyer here. Not boilerplate.
No offense meant!!!! Most of what I have done in IP trademark is boilerplate – renewals of marks, docketing, etc. etc. Just didn’t put it in the realm of maybe white collar litigation, etc. – should have been more specific….
I knew I liked you. LOL
Bea, no wonder I agree with you so often!!
to be fair, cd, both you and bea have done yoeman’s work in advancing theories/ideas/scenario’s, etc. you both have kept the blog interesting and informative.
i am digging the recent appearance of the ex-arent fox employees, and hope that as the case progresses, and at some point “heats up”, that we will hear from many more people out there who at one time knew the gang – either through the law firm, the milk group, the crew club, or whatever the case may be.
i am still surprised at the lack of concrete info on who dylan was, who his friends were, what (if anything) made him tick, what did he do with his time? where are his apologists?
peace, all –
Props to you, too, SDI, and I too would love more from the Arent Fox folks (just impressions and anecdotes have shed light on Joe) – to hear from a cast of characters from various parts of the Triad’s lives would be great.
Dylan is the biggest mystery indeed. I’ve gotten him pegged as bright, spoiled (from an early age until now), and unerringly unsatisfied (not just the depression). Wanderlust and floundering seem to go hand-in-hand with him, and methinks that he thinks himself “too good/clever/pretty” to have to work for a living.
Would love to know WHEN Joe’s drug use began (before, after, or “with” Dylan) and how such use dovetails with his persona of drinking to excess at work functions. I wonder if the folks who knew him at William & Mary saw him binge drinking – maybe that’s when he “rested” from being so tightly wound, and the drugs gave him even more of a respite from being “dutiful and ambitious Joe”.
Thanks SDI….all the thought provoking posts the eds put up for us all get one’s mind reeling! The really neat thing about this website is that it’s one big collaboration. We work off each other. Team work.
What I still don’t understand is, why not just move Killin’ Dylan’s private little knife set into the kitchen? Isn’t that, uh, a more normal place for a set of culinary blades? Then it would have been believable that an “intruder” had selected the “real” knife and absconded with it. No need to substitute knives, smear blood from a towel, etc. Nothing about the crime scene makes sense from any angle.
Agree 100%
Nora’s right: Why plant the kitchen knife at all? I don’t have the statistics, but don’t most “intruders” who use a weapon take it with them, in case they encounter someone else in their escape? Either Joe went blood-simple or (as CD suggests) he deliberately made the crime scene inexplicable, in hopes that an inquest or jury wouldn’t be able to resolve anything one way or the other.
Just another one of those unexplainable things that DID happen.
In a way, it’s good that they switched the knife…..just more proof that the crime scene WAS tampered with. Any of these strange but obvious things could be the lynch pin to their conviction.
Wouldn’t not leaving the knife initially just make the police look even hard outside the house or at the possibility that someone took stuff out of the house to put it somewhere the policy wouldn’t find it. I think what they did initially stumped the police and diluted the police’s ability to then go back and reconstruct that possibility – due to lapse of time….
Agreed, unless they weren’t thinking clearly enough to just move the knife set; seems like they went to a lot more trouble with the replacement knife, wiping blood on it and all. Not to be insensitive, but why not just insert it in the wound, to get the correct smearing effect?
Or there was some other compelling reason to switch knives. (One of them cut himself and blood seeped into that gap between the knife tang and the handle?).
Because then their fingerprints would be on it — and more to explain why only their prints are on it (or DNA) in the exact location to hold the knife and insert it…….
My instinct is that because the “fancy” set WAS kept in Dylan’s room (the culinary artiste needed SOMETHING to call his own) the murderer(s) were stuck on that fact and needed it NOT to be THAT knife. Joe knew that with all the dinner parties they’d had that someone might “recall” that the “special knife set” wasn’t widely used, wasn’t kept in the kitchen, etc., and that too may have played a part in the decision. Two cents.
Yeah, they definitely weren’t thinking in their right mind when they decided to use that one to stab him….or they were, and they were planning on replacing it all along b/c they knew they wouldn’t be able to clean it up adequately…..
Is anything in this case logical? That’s why I think a lot of this was done on purpose. A method to the madness, so to speak. Joe, the mastermind, takes his basic criminal defense knowledge and turns everything on its head thinking that if they can’t pin anything on one person, then they can’t prove anything.
I agree….I think the attempt was more to dilute the crime scene…
It seems like drug-addled logic, not clear-thinking logic, to “put” blood on the kitchen knife. Anyone who watches TV knows about striations the towel would/did leave. No “intruder” would take the “real” knife and leave a towel-marked “fake” weapon knife on/in the victim’s chest. Too weird for words.
I had the impression the knife was in a packaged set. Don’t know why I had that impression. But if so, then there would still be lack of fingerprints other than the boys’ which would raise the question they were trying to avoid being raised? New knife – no one’s fingerprints….
The “missing knife” was believed to be from a set for which the case was found in Dylan’s room. It was a culinary set probably used by Dylan, perhaps in his culinary school days. Dylan’s fingerprints would have been on it. The set was not new.
Hmmm…..this makes me think. Dylan’s fingerprints would have been on the set. If Dylan had been the sole perpetrator, perhaps Joe wanted to substitute a knife that had everyone’s fingerprints on it.
Oh dear me – I meant to write “Grillin’ Dylan.”
Speaking of Jon Benet Ramsey and Joe being overly defensive, I think you guys will find this interesting.
I was at Arent Fox when Robert Wone was murdered, and when the affidavit was eventually released. Up until the affidavit was released, the higher-ups at AF pretty much treated Joe like he was the real victim in all of this and how awful it was that he had to go through something like this. Once the affidavit was released, though, the stance of those at AF changed drastically.
An email went out to all three offices of the firm (DC, NY, and LA) instructing us to NOT read the affidavit, and if we happened to, to NOT talk to the press under any circumstances. Even more fascinating was the email Joe sent around to the entire firm in response to this email.
The first email went out on either Thursday or Friday, and Joe responded to the email on Sunday afternoon. In the email he talked about how innocent people had been falsely accused of murder in the past, and he cited the Jon Benet Ramsey and Chandra Levy cases. The email was VERY odd, and it reaked of being overly defensive. It reminded me of “you doth protesteth too much.” Everyone at AF agreed that bringing up the specific cases was providing too much information, that was never asked for in the first place. Personally, I don’t understand why he sent the email in the first place! I would have left the whole thing alone.
I’ve been visiting this blog for some time now, but have just recently started posting. If I think of other information that I think would be relevant (some things just came to mind), I will be sure to post them.
Please do, or if there’s something you would like to pass on more privately, feel free to email us anytime, and thanks.
-Doug, co-editor
I can understand AF asking employees not to talk to the press, but to instruct the firm to not read the affidavit? Good lord. That’s too much.
I would have gone home and found it and read it in a heartbeat under those tyranical conditions.
The insight into Joe’s reaction at work is interesting. I’ve often said Joe has a narcissistic personality disorder. Just another example of him running his mouth and thinking no one will think anything odd or peculiar about it.
Sometimes I wonder if he’s trying to commit the perfect murder.
> I can understand AF asking employees
> not to talk to the press, but to instruct
> the firm to not read the affidavit? Good
> lord. That’s too much.
Well, how about for the legal and practical reason that if an employee gets asked in the future, “Have you read the affidavit?”, he or she can honestly say no. That’s how lawyers think.
It’s not likely that the police department is going to ask each employee of a large law firm if they read the affidavit. And so what if they had?
“Yes, I read the affidavit.” Does that now make you part of the criminal proceedings? No. Does that now make you a witness? No. It makes you someone that read the affidavit. So what?
They were simply trying to quell any internal scuttlebutt.
I agree. And instructing AF employees not to read the Ward affidavit not only quells internal rumors, but also significantly helps to pre-empt any conversation/speculation with the media.
Interesting….I’m surprised the partners allowed him to do that — of course, sending it on a Sunday afternoon would prevent them from being able to have full control over that as opposed to sending it on a weekday…..plus it was a few days after — their guard was down.
I actually find it interesting to know how much time his brother was spending in JP’s office at AF. Every now and again is acceptable — but what was explained seems a little excessive. Only thing I can think of is people usually want to keep the wild cards close to them, and that might explain one of the initial unanswered questions I had in who got rid of the bloody stuff. Very very possibly his brother…..I don’t think Sarah. I think her not being there and knowing was the truth. Anyways, he would trust his brother more than her – don’t care how close they were vacationing, etc. Blood is always thicker than water – especially when the back is against the wall. And he woud have probably been close enough by to take care of it for him I imagine…
Please do – thank you. I find these these personal insights into the defendants’ activities, personalities, habits, etc. enormously helpful. Thank you for sharing your firsthand knowledge.
Ex-Foxer:
Not too suprised how embarrassed the managing partners handled – or didn’t handle – the Joe Price matter.
I received his laptop from him after the police had finished with it and firm software had to be re-installed. This was August 2006. I was busy with a one-time iConect training seminar with others in my section and therefore unable to assist. He took in stride – but only when the paralegal manager explained why he could not have the laptop immediately.
I left the firm in September 2006. I knew from the moment I read the first firm-wide email, sent the morning after the murder, that there was a lot more to this than meets the eye. We were asked to keep Joe Price “in our prayers.” Indeed.
To Ex-Foxer & Ex-A.F: It seems like you two could compare notes. If you want us to play online matchmaker, email us via the contact and we’ll hook you guys up.
Ex-A.F. says: “He took in stride – but only when the paralegal manager explained why he could not have the laptop immediately.”
Ex-A.F……..expand on this a little. Was Joe put off when he couldn’t get his laptop immediately? The manager had to explain the delay to him? Did he get angry? Tell us more about this.
Um, he’s an attorney, right? No offense to other attorneys, but having worked in a law firm for over 20 years, I was actually surprised when I was reading people saying “how nice of a person he was,” “how polite he always was.” This seems more in line with my experiences. There are nice ones. But you’ll never see them in this kind of predicament, and if they were, you would never see such an over the top cover up! People say the whole thing was done so professionally — I disagree. They just happened to be in the right town at the right place to get everything as botched up as it did. It wasn’t so much their smarts, but the incredible ineptness of DCP.
I’d love it if you could expand on your post. Perhaps it’s too early, but I’m not understanding what you’re saying about Joe and his laptop. Thank you for whatever additional information you can offer.
Anonymous:
Joe’s laptop was taken by the police. When it was returned Arent Fox firm software had to be resinstalled on the laptop. He approached me at a time when I was unable to assist. This was backed by the paralegal manager. He understood he could not have the laptpop returned as soon as he had wished. He was sort of upset at first (to be fair, a laptop is vital for any attorney) but backed down when it was explained to him a one-time only training session with the vendor was the priority.
so his “upset” demeanor wasn’t anything out of the ordinary. That’s what i was trying to ascertain.
No buldging neck veins.
Nothing that would indicate an unusal response to not getting what he wanted?
Anonymous….would you be so kind as to add a unique identifier to your name? Anonymous No. 707…..Anonymous Love Chili……Tall, Dark and Handsome Anonymous. It’s hard to keep up with who we are discussing things with. Please, please?
CDinDC:
He was not having a tantrum. It is not unknown for attorneys to have tantrums on occassion. Goodness. Again, I was not a paralegal assigned to Price. He did some litigation but was primarily (I believe) IP.
Thank, Ex-A.F……every little tidbit about Joe et al we can gather is so informative.
I never intended to post often enough to need an identity. I also didn’t know I could change my name – it automatically popped up whenever I hit reply. Hopefully this respects my preference to stay anonymous as well as the site’s loyal followers’ desire to know who is saying what. Thank you to all of you who are seeking justice for Robert and truth for us all.
Thanks, Anonymous Friend. It’s nice to get fresh perspective. Hope you stick around.
Oh, I’ve been here from the beginning and will see this through to the end. There is no doubt. Robert deserves no less and indeed much much more.
One would think he would have been somewhat embarassed or at least sheepish knowing that his S&M photo stash had been discovered on his firm laptop.
somehow, I don’t think Joe Price gets embarrassed easily. He’s so controlling, manipulative, narsissistic etc, he probably gives it a big peeshaw and explains it away as something he should be able to do with HIS computer.
Embarrasment would indicate humility. Something Joe Price obviously lacks.
I never did get around to re-installing the firm software on Joe’s laptop. I think the IT manager wound up completing that task, so I was never privy as to what was on his laptop. I left AF at the end of September 2006. It was an ok firm – no better, no worse than others in town.
there are many in life who know no shame; ms. j. price appears to be one such person. the irony: no humility, but a hard-on for humiliation — dylan’s c,p,s smeared all over him.
C.P.S.?? Culuket Personalized Services?
cum, p*ss, . . .
Joe was definitely a nice guy, polite, respectful, friendly, always took his secretary out to lunch for her birthday and bought her nice gifts for Christmas, etc. But he always seemed “on edge.” Not necessarily in a bad way, but like he had had 5 cups of coffee too many.
It was well-known around the office that he was a big partier (drugs and alcohol), so I always assumed that his “hyper-aware” state was from the drugs. I don’t take drugs myself so I don’t really know what effect they have, but I imagine certain drugs would contribute to this hyper, constantly on edge state.
One thing Joe didn’t seem to have a lot of was shame. After everything went down with Robert Wone, he didn’t really go out of his way to keep a low profile. I can remember an occasion where he got completely plastered at a work function, and he actually even brought both Victor AND Dylan to one of the recruiting events. Normally only Victor came, but I can remember one event in particular where they were both there. Again, this is all after the Wone murder.
As I mentioned in an earlier post, Michael was in the office a lot with Joe. There was also another male who frequented the office with Joe, and it may have been Dylan. For some reason my mind never made the connection that it was Dylan, but it’s very possible it was him. Or maybe Michael’s partner that Joe was defending. In any case, it was a blonde, small-statured man. If Dylan is small, then I’m sure it was him. There was just a lot of traffic with Joe, and if I were in the same position, I’m not sure I would be doing as much to attract unnecessary attention to myself.
Narcissistic pig.
Pigs enjoy rolling in their own filth. Which is why they so appreciate and enjoy WMRW.
Ha ha – this site does get a little rough but its intentions seem honorable. More passionate than prurient. Anyone who has been badly assaulted would agree.
If I had been as unlucky as Robert I would have wanted people like the editors, CDinDC, Bea, etc., in my corner.
Thanks, Nora. Robert deserves all and more.
I’m sure the 3 Little Pigs pop in on occasion and read up on themselves. Especially Joe. Narcissist that he is.
Hi Ex-F, thanks for the post. It’s good to get some first hand knowledge. Was it your impression that Joe was a “golden boy” before this went down? I find it odd that he had so many “visitors” – not really an commonplace where I work – is that common at AF? As for being a known drug-user, was it just office gossip? And was there similar gossip about other partners/associates? Sorry for the barrage of questions.
Thanks!
Thank you so much for this information. Can you be more specific about his reported alcohol and drug use? I’m particularly interested in specific drugs he was known to use or suspected of using. Thank you.
Sounds like a lot of meth use to me on all of their parts…perhaps why brother Michael was at the office all the time? Take it from one who knows…meth can make you invincible. I was a meth addict for many years and and while the drug can make you paranoid, it can also trick you into believing that no one around you suspects your behaviour is out of the ordinary. Perhaps why he didn’t go out of his way to keep a low profile after the murder.
I have been reading this site from early on, while not smart enough to add much commentary to what has already been said about the affidavid and such, I do know a LOT about drug use, particular in the gay community, and I am convinced beyone a shadow of a doubt that these boys, at least Dylan and Joe, were quite the tweakers.
During my meth use and “pnp” experiences, I witnessed meth use among doctors, attorneys, district court judges, tv news personalities, you name it. Meth greatly magnifies your innate personality traits.
Dear C.Ho,
How long before they would “return to normal” in terms of the police interrogation? Say they “consumed” around 10 before Robert arrived (or after, you be the judge), what is the ‘peak’ irrationality and when does reality set back in? Hope you don’t mind the lame questions.
Bea, these aren’t lame questions at all. Sorry for the delay. If they were doing crystal, they were either “bingers” – meaning they did it for a long weekend or once every couple of weeks – and one “shot” if they injected, or a few hits of the pipe could keep someone up for 12 hours or so….if they did it more often, then they could have quite a tolerance and if they were daily users, they may have been in a state of surviving on only a couple of hours of sleep a day or every day or so. During my last year of using (I have been in recovery for over 5 years), I used daily, went to work everyday (mostly) and didn’t sleep very much at all. This lack of sleep can make you pretty crazy. It also depends on the person. I have stayed up for 6 days straight with only a few hours of sleep. And I went to work. Mind you, I had to use all day to stay up, and built up quite a tolerance.
My thinking is that they may have given Robert GHB or Ketamine. “G” can really know you out for many hours – especially if you are not mixing it with Meth to counteract its sedative effect. You cannot inject G, so it would most likely been in a drink. You CAN inject “K”, but it isn’t common -but I have seen a lot of gay crystal users do it.
The important thing would be the positioning of the needle marks….To inject crystal meth, you would need “mainline” it – using a vein. You cannot simply give a shot of it to any part of your body. K, on the other hand, can be injected into a muscle.
I believe that K would keep you in what is called a K- hole for at least 45 minutes or so, depending on the amount done.
I think Joe and Dylan were pretty heavy users…they were probably able to function pretty normally under the influence of crystal. Crystal is funny in that while you may be able to look ok on the outside – especially if you haven’t been up for days and it was the beginning of your cycle of using – your mind can still be in a very dark and disturbing place. It makes most people, especially it seems gay men who may already have some tendencies to sexual addiction.
Not trying to label any particular group – I am a gay man myself – just making observations from my experiences. Crystal meth is an evil drug.
I wish I knew of anyone in the community who knew these guys…I have asked around the recovery community – figuring that someone surely would have ran into any of these folks while there were out there using, but nothing yet.
I have a friend who had minimal contact with Dylan as a result of his massage school training, and he said that Dylan was a very sweet and gentle man. That means nothing to me though – A lot of people said the same about Dahmer.
congrats on the 5 years, Former.
I strongly believe Robert was injected with K as his injection sites were intramuscular. As well, as the absence of defensive wounds (indicating he was “paralyzed”…..K has a strong paralytic ability…..body stiffens and looses voluntary mobility.)
VERY interesting info, Former. Keep it coming!
Fascinating!. Thanks for this info. It certainly sounds plausible that they sedated or restrained Robert somehow then started shooting him with K., while I bet Joe at least could have been on meth. It’s still hard for me to believe that he would do these things to his long-time friend unless he was in an altered state… unless he really is some kind of sociopath. And Dylan just did as he was told.
Thanks FC-Ho! Congrats on your recovery! A follow up question, if you don’t mind. If Joe and Dylan, as experienced users, had done whichever/whatever drug combo that evening (likely before Robert arrived is my guess, in anticipation) then is it likely they could have appeared ‘straight’ enough to talk with cops without detection? And I’m wondering if the drugs could have made it easier for them to stay up all night with the interrogation – often cops try to wear one down with time, but in this case maybe the drugs actually helped them stay focused? Much appreciation.
You know, I thought a lot about this…I really believe they could pull it off on meth, as long as they weren’t in the “tweaking” stage – which happens after you have been up for many days.
Simply put, meth is a strong form of speed, and does help you focus if you haven’t done too too much (think adderall and other ADD meds). Plus, they could have taken a sedative to come down a little off of the meth before the cops came. Actually, it really could have helped them greatly.
I have performed pretty good in the past on speed – presentations at work, etc. In small doses, meth uses to actually calm me down a bit…think of an ADD kid who takes ritalin….It isn’t hard for some people to act and appear pretty normal on some drugs. Joe strikes me as a confident, controlling person who is so “in your face” and “on” most of the time – that you probably wouldn’t notice much difference when he did meth. Dylan, I don’t know.
But I strongly believe they were both on something….and that it was a regular part of their lifestyle.
Something keeps my mind going back to his brother always being at his office. Was he bringing drugs? Were they doing it at work? Did they not think it was unusual that he was there all the time because they were “invisible” to the outside world (speed used to make me that way – I truly believed that as long as I thought my actions were normal, they were.
Anyway, just thoughts.
I am so fascinated with all of this, and knew ever since I read the first story when the murder happened that something wasn’t right.
I wish I was at the beach and had a good day to read the affidavit in its entirety….I don’t think its appropriate for me to make too many comments until I have really looked at the facts. But you guys are so focused and thorough, I almost feel like I don’t have to do the work(typical addict thinking, lol).
Interesting — no, we need your insight please…..
Spoken like a lucid, responsible person. Thank you. I truly wish you continued success in recovery.
Is there anyone reading this that has firsthand knowledge of any of the 3 defendants’ drug use? Please share whatever specifics you can – types of drugs, when the use began and/or stopped, frequency of use, behavior while using, etc. You can be anonymous – really, you can (although I would urge you to contact the prosecutor as well, of course). I hate to speculate – both because I don’t want all of us to spend time on this angle if it isn’t grounded in truth AND out of fairness to the accused, if indeed they’re not users. I agree that the theory that Robert was injected with something to subdue/restrain him and that Joe was under the influence of something that would corrupt him to defile and betray his dear friend makes the most sense to date. But I’d really appreciate someone who can share a personal observation or two. Anyone? Bueller? Seriously … please help us unravel this tragedy. Robert’s family and friends deserve some closure.
what would happen if you do meth and K in the same night? Same time?
I know there are some combinations of drugs that are popular in the club scenes…..E and K, E, K, MDA. Alphabet Soup, as I’ve heard it called.
Not to mention, continued use of ketamine can cause violence (yes, K users…it can make you craaaaaazy…..careful.)
You can certainly do meth and K together…Meth and Ghb is more common though. By itself, G makes you really horny and mellow…with Meth, you are a sexual time bomb.
My thoughts are that Joe and Dylan may or may not have been on a drug. Perhaps Meth, if they were. But Robert was injected with K.
Thank you for your insights. I echo CDinDC and Bea’s follow-ups. And I congratulate you on your recovery.
Hi Bea and Anonymous Friend,
I can’t speak too much for how Joe was treated before RW, because frankly I just didn’t pay a lot of attention to him before then. He was just another associate around the office, although he was definitely very openly gay at work. No, it was not common to have frequent visitors to the office, which is why I thought it was so unusual. An occasional visitor or client, sure, but these were definitely not clients. They were always dressed-down, in jeans or worse, and I just thought it was odd. Arent Fox is laidback for sure, but no need to take it to the extreme.
Regarding the drug use, this was mainly office gossip which intensified after RW. There was a lot of speculation about how RW was murdered, and it would come up frequently that Joe was into drugs and that maybe that night things just got out of hand with the drugs. I don’t know specifics about what he used, although as I mentioned previously he did get quite intoxicated at a few firm functions. I can only imagine what would happen if he consumed that much alcohol and took some combination of drugs alongside it.
I don’t remember hearing similar gossip about other partners/associates.
Joe couldn’t control his alcohol consumption at work functions. Sounds like a drinking problem to me. Any attorney I’m associated with takes it slow and easy for FEAR of making a scene.
Joe had no filter.
In the 90’s it was still not that unusual to see partners get drunk at work functions. In the 2000’s, not so much. Change in public attitudes. I’m somewhat surprised that Joe still made partner right on track given his behavior (and rumored drug use). He must have been a hell of a attorney or at least a rainmaker.
Agree that the climate changed about attorneys drinking to excess at firm functions – my recollection is that it was “acceptable” until the early 90s but practically changed overnight. Even before the change, though, senior associates looking to make partner were always on ‘good behavior’ and wouldn’t have risked being so drunk as to call attention/say-something-stupid. Odd that Joe engaged in this behavior in late 90s through 2000s. It does NOT seem to be in keeping with the rep that he was meticulous in all things.
Yet another example of Joe’s narcissistic behavior. Narcissist’s believe they can do no wrong. They above and beyond reproach.
When I was a big firm associate in the early 90’s I and my buddies instituted the “10 foot Partner rule”. This meant you kept yourself 10 feet away from any partner while drinking at a work function. There was definitely the fear of embarassing yourself! But, the partners….forget about it! Our firm Christmas parties were rife with inappropriate partner behavior.
It definitely started changing by the end of the decade. In addition to shifting public attitudes toward alcohol in general there were also increased concerns about company liability for accidents resulting from impaired driving after social functions AND increased awareness of potential for sexual harassment or at least allegations when alcohol was added to the mix.
Joe really does/did seem to think he was invincible, didn’t he? In addition to his behavior at business/social functions there was the whole porn on his work laptop thing. It’s like the normal rules don’t apply to him all across the board.
Anti-social personality disorder (sx include: inability to show remorse, disregard for social rules/norms, narcissism, tendency to violate boundaries of others, aggressive often violent beh., inability to tolerate boredom, disregard for safety of others, persistence of lying or stealing, superficial charm, impulsivity/recklessness, poor beh. controls) – also has the strongest correlation to psychopathy (chronic antisocial beh., lack of remorse, gratification in criminal, sexual or aggressive impulses – lack of a conscience).
Coincidentally, I just (again) pegged Joe as the sociopath (or psychopath, depending) on another thread. I think you are spot-on. NO CONSCIENCE is key. Too, genuine sociopaths are often charming, intelligent, and affable.
Yes, and they also tend to be in and out of jobs, but that’s not necessarily always the case, and the exception is when it is comorbid with very high narcissism.
Sorry, I meant to say with very high narcissistic “traits” as evidenced on the psychopathy checklist. That’s where JP’s job stability would ordinarily be thought to be in conflict with the definition – but not with high narcissism.
NPD is not as dangerous per se as ASPD. And if a clinician saw evidence of both, they would probably have to choose the highest level one, especially when that one includes traits of the other.
Anti-social PD, Psychopathy, and Narcissistic PD are all closely related. They are in the same “cluster” of personality disorders. Psychopathy/Anti-social is sometime referred to as an extreme form of Narcissistic PD. That’s why narcissism is a “symptom” of Anti-social PD or psychopathy. In fact, they are so closely related, some clinicians want to combine ASPD with NPD.
ASPD and/or Psychopathy is usually diagnosed by a history of “unlawful” behavior at an early age, but a lot of clinicians speak of “subcriminal psychopaths” who live relatively normal lives, but display many other symptoms (besides criminal behavior.)
I tend to go with NPD because Joe is so controlled and regulated in his personal and business lives.
I agree that NPD is in the running! The only reason I think sociopath is the complete (apparently) lack of conscience here. Narcissists (of the ‘disordered’ level) still have their own, albeit complicated, sense of conscience. To murder someone (presumptuous, yes), spend the night being interrogated, and then wanting a ‘breakfast with friends’ which include others not among the defendants strikes me as beyond ordinary narcissism (though they too are attention whores). That Dylan didn’t want to participate makes me think he’s distinguishable from Joe (though clearly his own brand of ‘WTF is wrong with him?’).
Yes, to CDinDC in that (ASPD and/or Psychopathy is usually diagnosed by a history of “unlawful” behavior at an early age, but a lot of clinicians speak of “subcriminal psychopaths” who live relatively normal lives, but display many other symptoms (besides criminal behavior.)
If we can untangle this a little to understand the personalities of the players, and thereby understand motivations and weaknesses, I think it would give the detectives a lead on what kind of pressure they can put on whom to break the case.
Indeed. I think therein lies the key.
Sociopath/Psychopath is more currently referred to as Anti-social Personality Disorder. ASPD. (which is sort of confusing because it makes one think of a anti-social “leave me alone – I want to live in a cabin” personality, whcih is far from ASPD.
Joe is DEFINITELY in that “cluster” of disorders. Where on the continuum is hard to determine without knowing more about him. We need more testimonials!!! Anyone out there??!!
I asked not too long ago if Joe had a history of lying. Not that that would clarify, but it would certainly add fuel to the personality disorder beliefs.
Some clinicians also want to combine the two disorders they are so close in symptomatic behaviors.
In any event….Joe’s a piece of work.
CD – We’re maybe a week or so away from sharing an anecdote that may speak to Joe’s temper.
That dinner date we had a few weeks back continues to pay off but sourcing and attributing what he learned is a challenge.
Watch this space.
once again, craig with a great teaser!
where is dylan’s dirty laundry?
I know! On both accounts!
Dylan’s proving to be the mystery.
Before somone can be diagnosed with ASPD, there has to be evidence of a conduct disorder before adulthood. I spent five years defending only persons charged with first degree murder and had forensic psych evals done on all of them. Some had ASPD, but dx is thrown around way too often. And the DSM does not recognize psychopathy as a valid dx.
I am not saying none of the three lacks a personality disorder, but it takes a trained psychologist who has a full history and has done appropriate testing and evaluation to diagnose one.
Having done capital work and dealt with severely damaged clients, I get little worked up over armchair psychoanalysis.
Although there is no evidence that anyone was drinking the night of the murder, alcohol and cocaine combine to form cocaethylene. The result is that the alcohol component disinhibits and while the cocaine fuels aggression.
We’re not diagnosing, Themis….we’re only discussing possibilities, which is what this site is all about.
Remember, we aren’t in a courtroom.
I’m totally on Team Kathy, but think you guys are way over-pathologizing drinking at an office party. Thanks to people like you, this country is getting even more boring.
Actually, we’re pathologizing JOE, not his drinking.
“Thanks to people like you, this country is getting even more boring.”
That’s awfully broad, don’t you think? LOL
If drinking at office parties explains Joe, there’d be a lot more dead lawyers turning up
This behavior also holds true for people who are addicts/alcoholics. I want what I want, when I want it and I am above reproach. Amazingly, none of the three have cracked…..what other kind of information does Joe have on Dylan and Victor? Yes, it is my belief that Joe holds the cards.
I think Joe has a predatory instinct when it comes to choosing his “friends.” I get the feeling that Joe chooses friends/lovers based on how well he can manipulate/control them. Maybe Robert proved too much in control of himself to fall for Joe’s manipulation. Maybe that’s what ended his life.
I still just have trouble even imagine someone getting into a mindset where you could plunge a knife into your helpless, long time friend’s chest not once but three times. Even if they thought he was dead, the whole image is almost too horrific to imagine. That it was Dylan’s knife leads me to suspect that he did the deed (not that he didn’t probably have help). But why use that knife when they could have almost as easily gotten one from downstairs, a more logical weapon for an ‘intruder.’ Clearly they wanted the police to think the kitchen knife was used. It also suggests that even though Robert may not have fought, that he was stabbed by someone who had not planned that act in advance and not thought it through.
From the start, I suspected Dylan, not Joe, did the stabbing in a panic. You ask, “But why use that knife when they could have almost as easily gotten one from downstairs, a more logical weapon for an ‘intruder.’” Because the murderer freaked out in a panic (perhaps because Robert regained some consciousness during the assault) and got the nearest knife, which was already located on the second floor. He didn’t have time to go downstairs, think about setting up the murder, and pick a knife from the kitchen.
Brian….have you actually read the affidavits? Probably not.
No, I have not. Again, I am not “accusing.” I am simply thinking of possible alternatives.
Grisham…..you are so right. Cheney could be directly involved in this.
I also wonder if they’ve checked Area 51 for the missing knife.
I also wonder if Brian is Lance.
Brian says: “The guys at the house could have cleaned up the mess since they knew they looked guilty (what would you do if you found a dead body suddenly in your own house?)”
uhhh…..I’d call the police. I certainly wouldn’t clean the crime scene, if that’s what you are intimating.
I guess YOU would clean up, huh?
And… if Kathy Wone had committed the murder (which, again, is preposterous), there would have been defensive wounds on the victim, the 3 residents would have surely heard the commotion and interceded, AND they would have immediately called 911 and accused the wife. Plus, “Brian,” check out the photos and videos of Kathy Wone on this website and other news sites. She is very petite and probably not even 100 pounds. Do you really think she could have secretly ambushed her husband while 3 other bigger men were present, and then ran off to Oakton? RIDICULOUS to the extreme! Those are my last words on this issue because we ought to focus on the suspects: Ward, Zaborsky, & Price, not the poor widow. The end.
ditto. ::pressing my ignore button::
It is questioning, not accusation.
time to answer the unanswered questions about ms. ward; or are you afraid to go there? the floor is yours.
Questions to Ponder:
Was Joe Dylan’s only long-term lover? Was Dylan corrupted by Joe, or was it the other way around? Was the restless Dylan getting restless about the Swann Street arrangement in 2006? He quickly tired of many pursuits, once he had tried them: was he getting bored with Joe after three years, too?
Clio, I DEFINITELY believe Joe corrupted Dylan. I’ve said this many times….I believe he was probably a shy wall-flower. Joe, predator that he is, saw Dylan’s weaknesses and exploited them for his own purposes.
Joe, in my opinion, is a classic charismatic psychological predator. He’ll find a weakness and then exploit it. He’ll charm anyone into doing anything he wants them to do.
Obviously, Joe’s best skill was manipulation…….not law.
And I think Joe was the ring=leader in this crime. Not Dylan.
And re the “only long term lover” question…….I wonder, as well. Again, no one has come forward about Dylan (publicly on the board, that is). No one. And Dylan has been to several universities, a culinary school, massage school, and who knows what else. Not even a friend from the community.
Joe knows how to pick them. He picked this guy and made him is very own. And Victor let it happen.
I am new to this site so forgive me if I am missing something that was posted before.
But CDDC, do you know the 3 well? Or is it from all of the information posted here and from other sources that you’ve formed your opinion?
(just curious)
I guess I’ve always assumed that a person who was dominant in the type of relationship they had, would have a stronger personality out side of the bedroom and not be a “wall flower”. Or is that not necessarily the case?
(I know nothing of S&M, so again forgive my ignorance.) Or is it that Joe forced Dylan to be dominant with him? ?
S&M is really just a sort of sexual make-believe, dress-up included. I know, I was into it for a few years. The S&M “community” (such as it is, and it does exist) is mostly made up of people who wouldn’t hurt a soul in real life and the whole thing has to do with the idea (the idea only) of forfeiting control. Safe words, well understood roles and proscribed limits pretty much put paid to that notion, but it’s a psychological and sexual game and really not much more at the end of the day than a sexual taste like vanilla is a taste, so is kink.
Joe seems like a pretty classic case of “topping from the bottom.” If it’s not obvious what that means, let me know.
Agree 100%.
Unfortunately, there are a tiny percentage of folks that take a well-defined power exchange and turn it into something completely unhealthy.
I have to wonder if Joe Price was of that tiny percentage.
Ok, thanks for the explanation.
des, I do not know the defendants personally. My comments are based solely on the official evidence, coupled with information provided by people that do know the defendents. And some gut feeling thrown in for good measure.
Um, I don’t know. DW has been leaching for a very very long time (and is still), and it takes a lot of charm and charisma to do this…….
Perplexed: Couldn’t it be hand in glove? The qualities that make Dylan “charming” to protective people (weakness, childishness) made him attractive to a controlling predator like Joe. What little I know about Dylan suggests an “innocent” side, and a controller might get a rush out of corrupting such a person.
I agree Nora.
Maybe Dylan’s lack of drive may be a result of insecurity. Insecure people tend to want direction. I’m susre Joe “directed” him. Dylan, i would imagine, made a small contribution to the household. What he could, perhaps? But his contribution would probably fall far short of what Victor and Joe contributed, which probably added fuel to his insecurities. Viscious circle.
Also if DW had a traumatic past and that the reason he hasn’t sort of found himself or seems to continually try to “escape” with heavy drug use (didn’t someone say a few weeks back that they spotted him all drugged up at a club in a back room, etc.?) might speak volumes as to his role in the threesome and the murder…….
Hmmmm. Definitely possible. Not being able to know at least one of the three’s personality types is a little bit of a disadvantage – with at least 1, you could build from there….
Speaking of long-term lovers…. When I was at AF I heard through office gossip that before Victor, Joe was dating someone who cheated on him and he was just devastated. He was so happy when he met Victor because he knew he would not have to worry about that. But by involving Dylan in their relationship, wasn’t Joe in essence cheating?
I think cheating on Joe would be the equivalent of losing control of the relationship. And heaven forbid, someone not think Joe was the cats-pajamas..
Thanks for those insights regarding the Triple Alliance, all; ex-Foxer, one may look to France, the land of love, for the source of Joe’s pain. Previous to Victor/Vicki, Joe’s loves apparently could not be controlled.
One last question to ask: given Dylan’s apparent inability to stick with anything for any sustained amount of time, is it possible that he initiated the events of August 2, 2006 yet could not complete the deed? Then, the “closer” — Mr. Price — finished it for him. Or, did Joe become the creative “idea man” for once — planning this dastardly assault? Then, in this scenario, Dylan finished it with his chef’s knife, when Joe could not go any further?
Perhaps Joe wanted Dylan to commit the ultimate act of love. An eternal bond.
Or vice versa…….just a thought….
But what if, suddenly, you DID find a body? A person who was your guest, and now he is dead (and you don’t know how)? Don’t you think they might have freaked and done something stupid instead of something calculated?! He was dead within minutes of arrival. That is why I am not above thinking it might have been an intruder… it happeened very fast, and the hosts were left to deal with it… quickly and suddenly. I am not so sure clearheadness would reign in such a situation. Food for though (Again, NOT AN ACCUSATION… just a thought!!).
so they cleaned up all the blood, showered their friend and then called 911. yep, sounds logical to me.
Brian, I’m really sorry, but anyone that would freak out and think of themselves instead of their poor dying/dead friend needs serious mental examination. I certainly hope you are not of the ilk to do such a thing.
But just to make you feel better…..my father died very suddenly at home. I didn’t fake anything to make sure that the authorities wouldn’t look at me as maybe murdering him. I didn’t drag him outside or redress him or any other ridiculous thing. I called 911. Like a normal person.
All I can say is there is a lot more CYA to the scene than murder. I believe the trio CYA’d but I don’t think they killed him. Or I should say, I don’t know why they would kill him. It makes more sense to me that someone else killed him suddently, took off, and left the guys holding the bag. And that’s when the CYA kicked in. I also think people poo-poo the idea of an intruder. I know a guy who killed by an intruder in Foggy Bottom a few years ago. he came right through the alley window and stabbed him to death. It’s hardly impossible.
Er, Brian, if I had a guest over who was stabbed by ANYONE, I would not hesitate to call 911. If my friend is dying, and even if I see my own mother holding a knife with her nightgown covered in blood, but there’s a chance of saving the dying man, I’m grabbing the closest available phone. Not after I talk to her. Certainly not waiting until she cleans the body and he’s good an dead. I may be yelling “WTF happened here?” as I’m calling for the ambulance, but one’s “knee-jerk” reaction to DYING FRIEND is CALL AMBULANCE NOW.
And you figure, at some point in the ensuing YEARS, one of them would have said “I tampered with the crime scene because I panicked.”
Why would they risk spending 40 years in prison, if they could come clean?
Because they did it, that’s why.
Can we stop beating this dead horse, Lance.
Brian, seriously now; I know that intruder and stranger on stranger crimes take place. I was myself attacked by a stranger when I was a child. It took the police hours to believe that it was not my brother or my father that had attacked me.
That said; every single element that is known about this crime (by me at least) puts paid to that theory.
I can think of no circumstances, no matter how stoned I was, no matter if I thought it might look like I was involved from the first second that I saw my friend; I still would call the authorities immediately, I still would not leave his side for a second, thinking that maybe he might wake up.
People are sometimes wrong when they think someone is dead, in fact I think that’s what happened here ~ they thought that they had killed him with drugs when they hadn’t and they stabbed him to make it look like a different type of assault.
There are no circumstances besides circumstances of culpability that would cause me to take a shower, the clean my friend’s body, to clean the walls ~ none.
Bryan, I also was the victim of a stabbing and sexual assault by an intruder into my apartment some years ago. I was further victimized by a Seattle police force that refused to believe I was assaulted by a random intruder rather than an invited trick or one-night stand. Having been through this, I should be cheerleading the intruder theory as a distinct possibility and trying to protect the trouple as possible victims of a framing effort by police. But even I can see the facts of this case preclude an intruder as the murderer.
brian, your intellectual dishonesty in refusing to ask your tough questions to dylan ward is quite revealing. SHAME!!!!!!!
She did it: Your use of terms like “Ms.” and “her” to describe a man indicates you are prejudiced and unworthy to engage in a debate in a civilized nation.
Brian, campy expression is protected under the First Amendment, but murdering a friend is not. I hope that helps.
Blance, stop it now.
This has been hashed and rehashed.
Remember?
Des, I don’t know much about the world of S&M either but from what I’ve read here there are sexual submissives who actually are calling the shots – do this, do that to me. I can’t remember what they are called? Also, from what I’ve read here and elsewhere it is common for strong, highly successful people who, if interested in S&M, assume the submissive role (even if they are still really in charge – can’t let go, can ‘ya Joe?) so I imagine the reserve holds true. Shy, wallflower types allow their inner aggressive side out (or at least pretend).
Hi CIV;
One term for the person you’re describing is the “bossy bottom.” Pretty much says it.
– Doug, co-editor
Ok, that makes sense.
My next thought was that maybe since Dylan is the dom, then if he can make Joe drink urine (or whatever else they do that would be considered difficult for someone to do under normal circumstances) then maybe he forced Joe to participate in some way in the rape of his friend, ie something he would find difficult to do under normal circumstances. (then it got out of control in some way etc etc.) ?
But now I see that might not be the case – I didn’t understand the dom/sub relationship as it might carry over into the non-sexual part of the relationship.
And anyway, I may be totally way off base here.
I’m just trying to figure out – as others have mentioned – how someone could do harm in any way to a friend, forget about the murder part of it.
That I think could never be answered adequately.
Oh definitely! I have read that also re: more likely that if they’re successful outside to assume the sexual submissive role…….that’s how they’re able to escalate…..
Make that “reverse”
Here’s another tidbit about NPD/Psychopathic behavior…….I can’t say Joe is being loyal though….trying to save his own ass, is probably more like it:
Spectrum of Narcissism
Psychopaths can almost be thought of as emotionally disabled in that they appear to experience a very limited range of emotion. They know the difference between what society considers “right” and “wrong,” but do not experience, and cannot empathize with, the feelings of suffering, remorse, elation and love that are normally part of the human experience.
Kernberg differentiated psychopathy from malignant narcissism based on his assessment that psychopaths are so resistant to external influences that they are unlikely to internalize even the values of the “aggressor.” Psychopaths are unable to emotionally identify with others. In contrast, he believed narcissists to have the capacity to identify with and admire powerful people, “which permits at least some loyalty and good object relations to be internalized.” However, all three levels of narcissistic behavior pathology share the common threads of extreme self-absorption and insensitivity that often result in a trail of victims–emotional wreckage left in the narcissist’s wake (Kernberg 2003, 2004).
Read more: http://narcissistic-personality.suite101.com/article.cfm/malignant_narcissism#ixzz0LHNzfcUE&C
Without divulging too many details for the sake of my own anonymity, I wanted to share a little bit about my experience with the three suspects. I knew Dylan, Joe, and Victor for a while. I am in no way saying that these men are guilty of the murder of Robert Wone. What I believe is that by bringing as much information to the table, the truth will surely surface.
Dylan:
Dylan is professional and kind. He is extremely meticulous and seems to exhibit borderline OCD behavior based on his attention to detail in all aspects of his life. He is very quiet but can deliver a 1-liner joke that will make an entire group breakout in laughter. Dylan is extremely serious and cautious with his words. He is a very petit male that probably ways no more then 130-140 lbs. He has been described as looking angelic in person based on his blond hair and innocent expression. Professionally, he is one of the most professional people I have known. His power is exhibited when influencing others through subtle and gentle suggestions. He might come across as subdue and hesitant and meek but his relationship with Joe proved to me that Dylan also held very strong opinions and appeared to have an equal position in Joe’s life. At least this is the perspective I had of Dylan and Joe’s relationship. Dylan and Joe sometimes reminded me of an old married couple because they could bicker like the best of them. I knew Dylan as a person of many many gifts and hobbies. He was always very kind to me and quiet in his approach.
Joe:
Joe is quite different from Dylan. Like many people have mentioned, Joe is loud, quick on his feet, witty, and opinionated. He is very very smart. When I first met him, I immediately questioned his motives and intentions. He is ambitious, very egocentric, and has little regard for other people’s reputation and emotions unless it serves him to do so. I have witnessed many many of his conflicts with others. Joe can be absolutely charming one moment and a completely irrational self-focused bully the next. I have been intimidated by him during most of my interactions because my gut told me not to trust him with my own concerns. My opinion comes from being a witness to his treatment of other people. When I knew Joe, he struggled to respect professional boundaries as far as friendly or sexual behavior. He can be your best friend and worst enemy depending on how he needs you. He is very protective of Dylan. He has a ton of vision and is gifted verbally. While I never trusted him and feared that his self interests would trump the greater good, he was so showy that it seemed that he cared a lot for his reputation, career, and family so much so that he knew how to protect his interests instead of hurt them.
Victor:
Other then a few social events,I only saw Victor at certain functions. Victor is my favorite of the three. He is kind, compassionate, and a great listener. He is gentle just like Dylan but has a less serious nature about him and seems to be externally aware of other people’s feelings. He seemed to really love Joe. While I hung out with all three of them on multiple occasions, I never witnessed any animosity between Dylan and Victor. On the outside, they appeared to be a very intact family. They laughed a lot, played up their stereotype when telling stories, and seemed to have true intimacy. While I don’t know Victor that well, if I needed someone to talk to or to help with something, Victor would have been the person I called.
The House:
I have been in their house multiple times. It was always immaculate, which doesn’t surprise me based on what I know about Dylan. I have never been in such a modern and “hip” house. They cherished artwork and good cooking and all-around good style. Dylan used the same room where RW was killed to do his work there. The hallways were narrow and the bedrooms small. The largest parts of the house were definitely the living room and kitchen area.
Sara:
I have also met Sara multiple times. Based on my interactions with her, it seemed that she really fit into Joe, Dylan, and Victor’s dynamic and humor including their opinions towards others. She wasn’t a consistent part of my experiences with the other three so I don’t want to elaborate anymore on my opinion about her.
Anyways, I just wanted to shed some light on their personalities since I have read questions about what they are like as people. In my experience with the three of them, Joe definitely seems to be the center of attention but Dylan showed a lot of control in the group. My view of Victor was that he was the caring and supportive role of the three of them. Again, I knew him the least.
As far as who did what, based on RW’s murder, I realize that sometimes we might never fully know a person. Based on my experiences with the three men, I feel like there is definitely some missing pieces that has yet to be discovered. While the affidavit is certainly compelling, it just amazes me that three men with so much talent and potential would throw it all away. It is so hard to believe that Joe could do this type of act even though I didn’t like him as person.
MaNonVa,
dare i say you had a fabulous post. i suspect others will sing your praises too for your thoughtfulness and insight (and like me, pepper you with additional/follow-up questions).
what can you share about dylan’s alleged depression and his rumored drug use? did he look blue to you? any leads or information on the knife set that he kept in the room?
again, thanks for sharing. stay with us, and continue to comment — even though many, myself included, may challenge some of the rose-tinted observations.
peace –
one further thought: you describe dylan professionally, as a professional. what was that profession again? many have suggested that her rumored mental illness cripled her ability to pursue and stick with a profession – one day a foreign service officer, next day a cook, next day a massuer, next day an electrician (hat tip, cd). in what professional capacity did you witness ms. ward being a professional? many thanks again for sharing your view.
Why the pronoun “her”?
sorry; like i did with “lance”; i am hitting my ignore buttom when i see your name.
So interesting….MaNonVA.
What stands out to me dramatically is that Joe “struggled to respect professional boundaries as far as friendly or sexual behavior.”
I post a while back that imagine Joe to be a “what I want when I want it” kind of guy.
Do you believe that Joe would cross the line with a straight long-time friend?
With all due respect CD (to you, to Robert and the seriousness of the subject matter and to those that maintain this site) your question caused me to laugh.
Just what line are you referring to: the flirt inappropriately with my straight friend line(?), the hit on my straight friend line (?), the grope my straight friend line (?), the suggest a ménage à trois with my straight friend line (?), the attack, subdue with drugs and sexually assault my straight friend line (?) or the murder my straight friend line (?)
Where does one draw the line, really.
AnnaZed,
MaNonVA is a casual acquaintance of the trouple going back a few years. I thought CDinDC was clearly asking about MaNonVA’s prior impressions of Joe. Not: “Hmm, I dunno…Joe seems like the kinda guy who would drug, molest and murder a straight college friend.” More like: in a general sense, did he seem like he would push people in a direction they clearly didn’t want to go?
We’ve all had the experience of receiving unwanted advances we thought we had clearly discouraged. That’s what “crossing the line” usually means to me.
I know what he meant Nora, that’s why I apologized first, but for some reason I couldn’t interpret his question in the way intended and it made me laugh and then my mind went galloping away. Maybe there is something about very serious subject matter that seeks relief sometimes.
Yeah, looked at that way it is kind of funny. Joe at his homicide sentencing: “…if I’d had any idea that that kind of behavior was FROWNED upon….”
MaNonVa, would you expand on these comments? “I have witnessed many many of his conflicts with others……………..My opinion comes from being a witness to his treatment of other people.”
Also, did/does Dylan have a strong allegiance to Joe?
Please please please keep posting. Thank you so much for your insights and observations. I hope you’ll continue to reflect on your interactions with these individuals and share whatever comes to mind. I specifically would appreciate anything else you can offer re: alleged drug use by any of them; specifics regarding Joe’s tension/conflict with others; what you mean by joe “struggled to respect professional boundaries as far as friendly or sexual behavior;” your impression of why Victor would tolerate Joe’s relationship with Dylan; whether it seems Joe loves Victor; your theory of what happened that evening; ideas for where police should be looking for the missing pieces; whether you knew Michael or his partner; whether you knew Robert … my list could continue. I don’t mean to be greedy. It just renews my faith that there is more to learn and not just rehash when I read people’s post who actually know those involved. Seriously, thank you.
I don’t want to go into how I know Dylan based on my own need for privacy. What I can say is that his work was impeccable. While it doesn’t surprise me that he deals with depression based on his demeanor and stress level, he never dropped the ball as far as his professional endeavors. Dylan was a phenomenal worker. If I could guess his Myers-Briggs, I would say that he is an INFJ with heavy emphasis on the I and J. (Note: I = introversion. J = judgment). Dylan never let anyone down, which to me means that he did a good job managing his depression while on the job. Dylan was reserved and professional in all of his interactions that I saw.
I heard about Dylan’s recreational drug use but never saw it first hand.
As far as Dylan’s interest to change occupations, I always sensed that he had a level of dissatisfaction in his work because it wasn’t how he envisioned his life. At the same time, he is such a student that I am not surprised about his many occupations. I have met other people like him who are just antsy and curious. I hope this helps.
Ha — no news on knives though. 🙂
Thanks, MaNonVa, for giving these memorable mini-portraits of the former residents of 1509 Swann.
Your snapshots, though, did beg the following questions:
If Dylan displayed such great judgment, why would he get involved with such a transparent, mercurial operator as Joe Price? How professional would it be for an employee of any organization to be in an intimate relationship with a board member of that same organization? Dylan was hired as a fundraiser at Equality Virginia (EV) because Joe chaired its board of trustees. I trust that Joe recused himself from any board decisions that had to do with Dylan. Yet, however effective that they may have been in starting EV’s Commonwealth dinners, the fact that Dylan was serving as Joe’s “dom” during that time raises serious questions about both their ethics and judgment.
Dylan stills remains enigmatic. How reserved and demure are patrons of the Crew Club (such as apparently himself)? Was Dylan unusually obsessed with Asian and Asian American men? Did this obsession partially explain his long-term interest in Asian cultures and/or his travel to Thailand after the Wone murder?
Finally, why was Victor’s salutary compassion not extended to Robert on and after August 2, 2006?
What’s the Crew Club?
Anonymous Friend
The Crew Club is a private gym (aka as a bath house) designed for sexual hook ups. It is located in DC on 14th street just above Thomas Circle.
David
Could Richard Wone have perhaps committed suicide and his friends are covering for him? You know I am not opposed to thinking new thoughts…
Brian, personally you are starting to bore me. If you lack the reading comprehension skills or simple initiative to actually read the documents in support of the affidavit then really you need to keep your own counsel.
You aren’t “thinking outside the box” you just aren’t thinking.
Hint: the manner of Robert’s death completely precludes any possibility of self-infliction.
Bore you Anna? I get you thinking…. ;^)
Don’t make me laugh.
Brian Brian, if you want to “think outside the box” and “get us thinking”, maybe you should “grow a pair”, y’know? There’s an “elephant in the room” you’re too timid to mention.
Sarah Morgan is a “large girl”, decribed as “cool” and “stiff” who the dryer evidence tells us was in “her time of the month”. No wonder all Robert’s blood was gone – she is a creature of the night Brian!
You would shriek as loud as Victor if you woke up to find…your hefty roomy straddling Robert like a guzzling, bloated tic.
“Starting”?
Brian – Your skills may be best put to use by gaming more realistic scenarios.
Three self-inflicted stab wounds is extremely unlikely if not physically impossible and completely at odds with the known evidence.
Brian,
While we all encourage outside-the-box thinking, I suggest you start with learning what is in the box first. A good start would be the deceased’s first name. His name is Robert Wone, not Richard Wone.
Second, I also suggest turning your question around to an answer — why would the defendants risk a potential 38 years in jail to cover up for their friend’s suicide?
David, co-ed.
Brian, maybe Robert was wearing gloves when he stabbed himself to death. That’s why his fingerprints aren’t on the knife.
Just like the “real killer.”
As a friend of Robert (not Richard!), it is painful as all hell to read this post. It’s bad enough to have to deal with his death, but reading far-fetched theories that completely contradict the person I knew and loved are like salt in the wound. That said, I do want everyone to ask difficult questions. Every stone should be turned. We don’t know all of the facts, and likely never will. BUT I ask that we ask our hypotheticals to ourselves first, testing them against the evidence available to us (although I constantly remind myself to try not to jump to conclusions based on press leaks and statements in prosecutorial advocacy documents – I want to dissect the actual evidence when we finally have access to it) before we advance them in a public arena. Not only do I know in my heart that Robert did not take his own precious life. But this theory is utterly inconsistent with his wounds. Three nearly identical stab wounds to his chest with no signs that he even flinched from the incision? They were not self-inflicted. Brian, thank you for attempting to think outside the box. Perhaps one of your thought experiments will help us solve this heinous crime. But a crime it was. Please read the affidavits and then return with your creative thoughts grounded in fact and tested in reality. Thank you to everyone here who is devoted to seeking the truth.
::applause:: thank you for saying that, AnonFriend.
BRIAN
A People’s Republic of China Communist Party intelligence agent is the only likely suspect to assassinate Robert Wone on account of his connection with Radio Free Asia.
Generally, such agents come armed with a weapon.
Perhaps at one time, a Japanese agent would come armed with a Samurai sword. But these days, even an Asian agent lacking intelligence would be armed with a gun and silencer.
As has been pointed out, such “hits” are intended to make a statement. A CCCP agent would have either executed Robert on Pennsylvania Avenue in front of the White House or in the Wone driveway.
Only way secret agent would have killed somebody in such a manner as that in which the life of Wone was taken was if the agent wanted to make it look like there is no way in the world that the act could have been committed by such an agent. In that case, the CCCP would have had to be even smarter than Price, Ward and Zaborsky.
PERPLEXED
Regarding your comment about “blood being thicker than water” when one’s “back is against the wall” (not necessarily best choice of words). In
this particular case, the biologically unrelated trio actually thought just the opposite. This is to say that Price, Ward and Zaborsky thought that they could wash away the blood when Robert’s back was against the wall in the shower stall.
The reason for employing the culinary knife may have been for one of two or both reasons called motive and opportunity. In reverse, Ward’s room was proximate to the guest room. Ward’s culinary cutting skills would have been best manifest with his employing a culinary knife for the purpose of inflicting fatal wounds. However, the knifing itself may have been committed in the mistaken belief either that: 1) Robert was still alive when he was already dead; or 2) Robert was already dead when he was still alive.
In this case, the weapon is not only place where a perpetrator would have to worry about leaving a fingerprint. The Wone Blackberry would have been another such place had only the MPD checked for prints! But apparently that was too much work for their crackerjack CSI team.
SHEDIDIT
It may be the reason that nobody has stepped fwd to tell us more about Dylan is that he is a “loner.”
Employing culinary knife made it all the easier for the wounds to be surgical in nature, thus insuring death if that indeed was the intention. Unless the trio were members of surgical team or played one on TV, it is highly unlikely that Wone was stabbed by more than 1 person — Dylan being most likely.
I am not only bipolar, but I have been “out” about being bipolar since I was 17 years old which is to say for 50 years. I am also a super-extrovert who has a greater number of close friends than the number of acquaintances known to most people.
Outside of my immediate family and among a few close friends, nobody is aware of my depression.
TT
As before stated elsewhere, I am a human rights activist who participated in the rallies, protests and demonstrations surrounding Stonewall.
Thus I may say with some authority that common among LGBT leaders and followers is the attitude:
“I want what I want and I want it now and am above reproach.” At various times: Price, Ward and Zaborsky all worked for Equality Virginia.
CDINDC
Similar to Ward, I am bipolar. When one is in a
manic phase, one may be extremely productive while going without sleep for extended periods of time. For example: after a full day of activity, I have been working on this blog through the night!
MaNonVa pointed out that guest room doubled as Ward’s office. It may seem farfetched, but perhaps
Ward persisted in cleaning up the murder site on account of his obsessive compulsive disorder.
BEA/CDINDC
Think that you two should consider copywrighting,
patenting or trademarking your “joint” analyses.
With respect to Zaborsky’s conduct of that fateful emergency call, one must not forget that Victor is a public relations professional. Price is not the only one who brought special skills to the task.
I tend to agree with THEMIS when it comes to armchair pyschology. It is not that I am opposed to amateur analysis on acct of my being bipolar, it is that I am aware of the limits of analysis without the benefit of greater knowledge of the person who
is subject under inquiry. Regarding your thought about the statistical unlikelihood of simultaneous sociopathy, it may help to familiarize oneself with a situational condition known as: “folie a deux.”
EX-FOXER
One third of Straight married men and one quarter of Straight married women admit to be unfaithful to their spouses. Given that data (dater) is based upon admits, the “numbers” are probably twice as high (with or without drugs and alcohol). So much as I hate to say it: in the LGBT community, the numbers are probably three times as high.
Open relationships have become epidemic in the LGBT community so that one partner cannot be labeled “cheater” when having sexual relations with another outside of the primary relationship.
This may be an exaggeration, but not by much.
ANONYMOUS FRIEND
Please see my immediate above post. It is the case in most romantic relationships that one partner loves the other at least a little bit more than the other loves the one. More often than not, it is the one who loves less who seeks an open relationship.
Upon the one making the request, the other has 2
choices: 1) acquiesce or 2) lose the love of one’s life. This is probably reason why the emotionally
dependent Zaborsky tolerated the relationship btw
his controlling lover Price and his boy-toy Ward.
DES
Love has been known to make people do some pretty or not so pretty strange things — including rape, murder, conspiracy and cover-up (hmmm).
MANONVA
You have observed that Dylan had the power to not only influence but control others through the
“power of suggestion.” Maybe he is not as mild mannered as some people — including yourself — seem to think. In other words, he might be able to get Joseph to do things he would otherwise not do?
ANNAZED
Found analyses to be “spot on” in many respects.
SADOMASOCHISM
Often sadomasochistic relationships change over time in such way that the once-upon-a-time slave wishes to become a master at a later point. This can be most unsettling to the theretofore master.
Now, imagine if you will what would become of Ward were he no longer required to dominate Price for purpose of satisfying Joseph’s needs?
What would ever-the-wanderer Dylan do for living should Joseph decide to no longer find employ for his former master and what would Dylan do for a home should Victor decide he no longer wanted for a housemate the other man in his BFs life?
Sound like at least two good motives for sociopath Dylan to make himself indispensible by let us say arranging for the narcissist Price to satisfy his unrequited love for the innocent Robert — both Ward and Price being attracted to same Straight Asian man (albeit perhaps for different reasons).
Hi Robert, I enjoy your posts but was a bit nonplussed about this one. Are we to feel chagrined by your assessment? (Scratching head here). It’s the “definitive” manner in which you seem to pronounce each as lacking/having/not-quite-having merit which gets my hackles up (and not necessarily for good reason – suspect your reasoning was more food for thought/stream of consciousness in its origins rather than to be broadcast as critiques of each of us).
As for your assessment re me, to be frank (“I’ll be Frank if you’ll be Shirley”) while I respect many of CD’s posts, we hardly agree on a number of things. He suspects that there was some very untoward intentions before Robert arrived – I think the night spiraled out of control quickly but murder was not predetermined. As for my/our overlooking “folie a deux” – and I have no formal psychology training pass garden variety undergraduate courses, some self-training in dealing with friends with serious mental illnesses and being a ‘moderator’ on a mental illness board (I was dragged in simply as a layperson with a sense of reason/fairness) – I have to say that really that “a deux” is much more likely than “a trois”. Particularly when evidence suggests that the third was not into the same sexual activities and drug use – and that he was by all accounts asleep. Victor may have even masterminded “now what do we do?” but that doesn’t mean he was in on the stabbing. When I speak of “mental illness” it’s to repeat what we know of Dylan’s issues but to posit reflections on Joe based on what’s been reported.
You may prefer to work solely from facts, and that’s great – I commend you – but do consider that in my months here my personal viewpoint has shifted and allowed for others’ posts to impact how I “see” what may have gone one that night. All of it, right and wrong (including Brian’s posts), are of value in keeping the case in the fore.
I’m not quite sure what you’re saying to Ex-Foxer except that many people cheat. Clearly Joe’s “cheating” on Victor was approved, and Dylan apparently was okay with trolling for others. I don’t think data like that is worth much in whether or not Robert may have been cheating (I see no reason to suspect he was). And FYI, tossing lesbians in with gay men on the “gays cheat more” statement is simply wrong, both in my anecdotal evidence and by studies.
Don’t know if I’m just being crabby and missed the reason for your post, so if so, apologies. I do enjoy your insights.
Bea says: “As for your assessment re me, to be frank (”I’ll be Frank if you’ll be Shirley”) while I respect many of CD’s posts, we hardly agree on a number of things. He suspects that there was some very untoward intentions before Robert arrived – I think the night spiraled out of control quickly but murder was not predetermined.”
Any “untoward intentions” would only include seduction. I think the plans of seducing Robert were halted in no uncertain terms by Robert, which angered Joe and resulted in drugging, raping and murdering Robert.
I sometimes think maybe Joe had made advances toward Robert before, which had been rebuffed, but with no consequences. (“no way, joe!” ha ha ha.) Perhaps Joe pushed Robert too far this time. Robert was now a happily married man. Maybe Robert found Joe’s possible advances insulting to his beloved wife. Maybe Robert got mad this time. Cutting short a late evening of chat. And cutting short a valued life.
I think the perps had already made very careful preparations before Robert’s arrival to drug his water and then inject him a few times up in the guest bedroom fifteen or so minutes later.
There is no convincing evidence that Robert was physically restrained by an “angered” Joe in order to be drugged and/or raped/murdered.
John Grisham says: “There is no convincing evidence that Robert was physically restrained by an “angered” Joe in order to be drugged and/or raped/murdered.”
I didn’t say anything about “physically restrain[ing]” Robert.
But the “angry Joe” theory is as good as the next.
Besides, SOMETHING sent Joe over the edge.
And I’m sure it wasn’t a “gee I’m so happy to see Robert I think I’ll rape and murder him.”
Please explain CDinDC. If, after Robert arrived, “SOMETHING sent Joe over the edge” and Joe was “angered,” what do you think Joe did next to act on his anger?
Robert was a small man. With Dylan’s help, he could have been subdued and drugged.
Why is THIS so far-fetched, when Robert was raped and stabbed to death? It is certainly the lesser of the evils by legal standpoints.
Is it far-fetched because it doesn’t jive with your play mat, porn production theory?
Yes, Grisham, I think at one point in the evening, Joe was barking orders. What the orders were, I’ll never know, but I believe he orchestrated the entire cover-up and his spineless pawns complied.
CDinDC says, “Robert was a small man. With Dylan’s help, he could have been subdued and drugged.”
Dylan wasn’t much larger than Robert. And Joe certainly wasn’t as large then as he is now. And even if some gigantic person TWICE Robert’s size tried to pin him dow and subdue him so others could accurately stick needles into him, I am (almost) 100% sure evidence of a violent struggle would have been found on Robert’s body. But then, as I recall, you don’t believe Sarah was in the house at that time.
John Grisham says: “But then, as I recall, you don’t believe Sarah was in the house at that time.”
Touche!
THAT will keep me laughing for hours.
So, it was like Joe growing, “You don’t know what you’ll be missing Robert,” and storming upstairs to his drug depository for some dissolvable sedatives. While upstairs, he barked at Dylan, “Get our hypodermic needles loaded and ready with K. Pronto!” Returning downstairs, he tried to put on a calmer face, “Here Robert, have a nice, refreshing glass of water . . .“
No, plans to drug Robert were arranged before he arrived.
Were you there, John?
That is the first time on this website that I have been told with 100% assurity that I’m wrong.
There are only few people that know with 100% assurity what happened that night, and one of them is deceased.
Perhaps you should be a bit more humble in your conclusions, John.
No offense, CD. And no, I would rarely tell anyone they were 100% wrong, nor claim on virtually anything that I believe must be 100% correct. I am only trying to understand how you reach your conclusion that “Robert was physically restrained by an ‘angered’ Joe in order to be drugged and/or raped/ murdered?”
With the presence of multiple needle marks — and the absence of any physical struggle — it seems MUCH more likely Robert was gradually sedated, and that such sedations required some preparation.
I too think that Joe prepared in advance to subdue and attack Robert.
Another poster mentioned this elsewhere, but it might put things into perspective a bit to consider that this kind of attack, when perpetrated by a man on a woman, is sadly commonplace. Rapists often come prepared with weapons, drugs and even needed items like bags to get rid of bodies in planned attacks on women.
I think the cleaning up of the scene was not for police benefit, but for Victor’s (THAT’S why the knife was disposed of). I think that Joe and Dylan planned to kill Robert and simply dispose of him like garbage. Victor messed it up by waking up, coming downstairs and seeing what they had done to Robert. I think that they planned to kill Robert and say that he simply never made it there.
The only mystery for me is why Victor persists in supporting these psychos.
Agree about Victor. But (thinking out loud) why would anyone desiring to rape and murder someone “choose” a well-respected attorney whose wife (and others) know will be spending the night at your house? This makes no sense to me – which is why I go back to thinking that they HOPED he’d be charmed into their lair, or, in a drugged state, thought that if Robert was drugged then he’s “relax” and “enjoy” it (Arggh). Definitely something shady was on the horizon before his arrival, but to decide to RAPE him, let alone KILL him, before he set foot in the door seems far-fetched. No one is stupid enough (at least in a non-drugged state) to think this is a good idea. If the duo had decided to kill someone as part of their fantasy, my guess is that they would have trolled the web or bars for some guy with less trappings, fewer ties, and far fewer trails back to Swann Street.
Robert’s impending visit likely ignited days of lurid fantasies preceding his arrival: over that time, many preposterous possibilities were concocted and intimated among some household members.
It was only Wednesday evening, after drugging up prior to Robert’s arrival, that some of the perps increasingly became extremely confident that they could actually accomplish their fantasies without ever being detected. They courage to carry out their preposterous plan for a covert, drug-induced rape only began to “crystalize” that evening, hours before Robert’s arrival.
I don’t buy “days of lurid fantasies”, John. These were guys who kept themselves busy with other things, weren’t likely pining away for Robert. Just don’t see it. I think that the murder was premeditated in the sense that they made a conscious decision to stab him to death – possibly because he would have them charged with rape – but “days of lurid fantasies” doesn’t jibe with having a respected attorney friend come over, with his wife and others well aware of it. The couldn’t have been THAT stupid or cocky. If they’d wanted to “murder” they’d have picked a VERY different victim.
My opinion only.
I beg to differ, Bea. Everything about Joe and Dylan (from culuket to Eye Candy), suggests they had a very intensive fantasy life. One that Joe would even risk bringing into his work place and store on his office pc.
Certainly, among themselves weeks in advance over Robert’s pending arrival they openly lusted over Robert (the same way some males on your high school’s football team would constantly banter about finding a particular cheer leader in a particularly vulnerable situation),. Yet originally, Joe, Dylan, et. al. never REALLY originally intended to act on these fantasies.
Yet a couple hours before Robert’s anticipated arrival, our perps began to feel oh-so-confident they could now actually accomplish a rape of Robert and get away with it. ‘N you know; some drugs can make you think you can fly and all.
With a LOT of luck, someday we may know. We can agree to disagree.
But wait Bea! Would you agree with me that, from what we know about Joe at least (culuket, porn on office pc, Eye Candy, etc.), that Joe had a pretty active and vibrant fantasy life?
John, I don’t think what sticks out to me about Joe is his ‘active fantasy life’. I think what is prominent in terms of his “out of the norm” is his BEHAVIOR, e.g., having his drug dealer bro come to the button-down law firm, to have such a profile, to have photos of Dylan “dominating” him sexually on his work computer.
So to answer your question, not to be ornery but in all seriousness, I don’t think FANTASY is what sets him apart from the ordinary person. It’s that he was reckless in his BEHAVIOR, (from reports) that his drug use was known at that button-down firm, that he moved his mistress into his home, on down the line.
Because he was notably meticulous, cunning, and intelligent, even if he did have fantasies about Robert, he was too smart to want to plan a murder and carried out that plan with an old friend who many knew was staying over that night. It just wasn’t the “plan” to rape him and murder him. I’ll give you that he could have hoped that Robert would willingly participate and just couldn’t take ‘no’ for an answer, but I don’t think any reasonably intelligent person would think this was a ‘good idea’.
To use your line of thinking, if he did harbor ‘days’ of crazy fantasies about what might happen with Robert that night, it’s highly unlikely he was so drugged that entire time to have lost his grip on reality – he was working, he was functioning, so any drug-fueled insanity occurred that night, not days before.
Again, just an opinion.
Agree, Bea. I don’t think they planned to kill him. It was an after-thought.
I think Joe wanted to seduce Robert. Robert strongly disagreed perhaps.
Something I mentioned sometimes back is that Ketamine has an amnesic ability in some cases.
Alternatively, perhaps they thought Robert would never remember. But instead, maybe Robert “came to” enough to question what was happening. At that point, they concluded that Robert had to be killed to protect themselves from rape charges.
Right on, AnnaZed. And, that’s why Sarah, Victor’s staunch ally, may have agreed to take “the stuff” out of the house. So, the enablers of Joe and Dylan are still enabling because they themselves cannot believe what happened.
I tend to agree with this. I do not believe it happened b/c of rejection. I think this was planned (just not the murder).
Agreed, also. But, I still think it’s more likely that Ward was the main perpetrator, not Joe Price. Perhaps I don’t want to believe that a longtime friend of 14 or so years with a high-powered career and professional rep on the line would do this, then show up to be a pallbearer at the friend’s funeral. Yet who knows what evil lurks in the heart of men…
Agree – again.
Maybe gradual sedation WAS part of it. But gradual sedation would, in my mind, lend itself to premeditated rape.
I don’t necessarily think Joe’s plan was to attack Robert unwillingly.
Personality snippets lead me to believe that Joe didn’t get his way……and he snapped.
John Grisham says: “No offense, CD.”
::laughing:: Thanks Grisham. I’m okay. I’m going to go and watch the Dramatic Chipmunk now.
So, it seems. Robert was gradually sedated that evening. Right?
John, what’s with the interrogation? I realize this question wasn’t meant for me, but it seems you’re trying to corner folks so to pull a Perry Mason, complete with pronounced “Ah, ha!” to make your point. Your position is very well stated, and I respect your opinions, but we are all speculating here, with some facts, and a lot of pulling together of bits and pieces of things which resound with us.
Personally, I think “gradually sedated” could mean a number of things. I think what’s clear is that at some point, someone stuck needles in Robert to subdue him, if not sedate him, and whether that occurred after he drank “laced” water (or even if he had water), is a big question. I don’t have a strong opinion of whether they slipped him a Mickey (love that old phrase) but think that Dylan (Mr. Massage, possibly Accupuncturist) shot Robert full of something against Robert’s will. Could even have given him a massage first as a pretext. All a big question mark.
But I suspect that Dylan and Joe hoped Robert would be a willing participant but he wasn’t, and due to being high, one/both were unwilling to take no for an answer. As for when the injection/drugging occurred, my best guess would be a bit before 11 after “they” went “upstairs”. If Dylan and Joe were clearly high when Robert arrived, that may have irritated him and he may have cut the chit-chat short and excused himself.
There are so many variables, I realize, and so many ways of “seeing” this. Maybe the attack was shortly after 10:30 and that he was dead by 11 (“we went to bed around 11”). But one of the things I hold a strong opinion about was that Robert was not lured there to be raped/murdered. Fully admit that it’s only an opinion.
Hi Bea. My apologies if I seem to be pressing too hard. I am only trying to understand what you believe happened, if you strongly believe the rape was NOT premeditated (I don’t think anyone believes the murder was premeditated); given the needle marks and the absence of any signs of struggle.
I suppose Joe could have decided to sedate Robert AFTER Robert arrived and rebuffed him. And I suppose Dylan could have quickly gotten the needles ready and loaded with sedatives. And I suppose Robert could have, at that time, have consented to acupuncture (even though Joe had just come on to him). Or is there another non-premeditated scenario that would have been more likely?
I respect your insights Bea, and am not trying to “corner” you; only trying to better understand the most compelling alternative theory one might suggest that takes the facts into account yet does not involve premeditation (other than the one that suggests Robert was a willing sexual participant).
Hi John, it may be that we’ve had such different life experiences that we see the same info in disparate lights. I would think of this scenario as being more along the lines of a “date rape” than a “stranger rape” and that clouds my impression.
In other words, I simply think it implausible that Joe/Dylan intended to forcibly rape Robert before Robert arrived that night. That said, I think it quite plausible that they “hoped he’d be into it” and that because of drugs or ego (or both), misjudged the likelihood of that. “Rape” encompasses a lot of behaviors – including having a high perpetrator convince himself that what he’s doing isn’t “really” rape. Many women I know have been in situations where they’ve had to do some fast talking to extricate themselves from ordinary-turned-hostile situations. I don’t profess to know if what happened to Robert was rebuffed-seduction-turned-ugly but that makes a whole lot more sense to me than the duo lying in wait to forcibly rape their friend.
Perhaps they did have the syringes out because they were shooting up. Perhaps they thought it would be “fun” to see Robert get high (with or without his permission). Maybe they put G in Robert’s water to make him be more “in the mood” or maybe Dylan whined about giving Robert a massage long enough that Robert agreed to do it and then Dylan gave him injections. For drug users, having the stuff handy isn’t uncommon – nor does it take them long to get it. Haven’t you ever been at someone’s house and been asked if you’d like to “smoke a bowl” or “do a bump” and even as you’re saying “no, thanks” watch THEM do it right then and there and you didn’t even see where they pulled “it” from?
John, think about putting aside the notion of forcible-aggressive-behavior- rape and put it more in the context of “date rape” (not that it’s any less ugly or horrific) – which is MORE likely to happen in relation to someone they knew, who had felt comfortable enough with them that he asked if he could spend the night – then you and I might be closer to being on the same page.
Hi Bea. Thanks for elaborating on your thoughts. You’re right in thinking that we’re already both very close on the same page on this. I’ve never suggested that there was forcible-aggressive-behavior- rape. I’ve always maintained that Robert was covertly drugged and injected.
Where you and I seem to differ is, “at what point did the perps decide to dope up Robert?” That is, if I am understanding you correctly.
So many things needed to take place in such a short period of time that evening. You know the list. As I believe, Joe and Dylan had planned earlier that evening to whisk Robert upstairs (with a glass of spiked water) for one of Dylan’s “relaxing massages” just minutes after arriving. Alternatively, I just don’t see how there was much time for an unpremeditated date rape drama to unfold (seduction, rejection, renegotiation to offer a massage, etc.). I think at, the very least, they planned in advance of Robert’s arrival to give him spiked water to get him in the mood. In my book, that’s already premeditated attempted rape.
to both john and bea,
what are your thoughts then on the mouth guard?
I will weigh in as well, des.
It was placed in his mouth by the defendants as part of the staging to support their “intruder” statements.
i agree that could very well be the case. but would they know that he wore one and if so, would they know where to find it?
Well, Joe knew Robert since college days. He may have known. But my guess is that it was on the nightstand already. So they put it in his mouth.
The mouth guard might argue for the scenario that I believe Bea is suggesting. That Joe, his initial advances having been rejected, dumps enough sedatives in Robert’s water to bring down a horse; causing Robert to drag himself upstairs and fumble around the best he could to prepare himself for sleep (including inserting his mouth guard), before completely passing out.
I differ in believing that a lot of neurotic, obsessive/compulsive behavior seems to be evident surrounding the area in which Robert was found dead. His cell phone had been tampered with; his body was artificially displayed; he was dressed in a new shirt made to look as if he had been stabbed in it. Noticing and inserting Robert’s mouth guard after his death? I’d be more surprised if it HADN’T been inserted, as that would have undercut the perps’ entire story.
Ahh, but if you leave out the massage….
And, as you said to me above “There is no convincing evidence that Robert” would or did get a massage.
Other than how arguably this would have been the most expedient (i.e. least likely to be resisted) way of getting a tired, hard-working friend of many years quickly from one’s front door to the upstairs guest room, disrobed, laying on his stomach, and into the hands of a (supposedly) skilled masseuse.
We may never know. I don’t think they made an overt decision “if he doesn’t have sex with us then we’ll rape him” – I suspect it was more of a ‘hopeful’ notion along with enticing him with drugs. Perhaps he said ‘no’ to drugs and of course that wasn’t the right answer, spiked/injected anyway. It doesn’t take long at all from a seduction attempt to turn to rape – when I say ‘seduction’ or ‘come on’ I don’t mean hearts and flowers and Barry White on the stereo. I mean – ‘want to?’ followed by (gracious) refusal, stepped up pressure, followed by increasingly nervous/irritated refusal, followed by drugs and assault. Maybe 5 minutes. I suspect many here realize that the tenor of a potential date rape situation can go from fine to miserable in a very short time frame. If the guy(s) are high and horny and angry, not much time at all is my guess.
Bea, something in this post brought to mind an experience I had many years ago. An experience that may have relevance….
I dated someone many moons ago that was an admitted S&M enthusiast. I am not. (Although I have a lot of experience with the community, I do not/have not participated physically.) This person would very often try to pique my interest. Never worked. Wasn’t interested. One day, I agreed to some playful bondage. Repeat PLAYFUL. Come on, we’ve all grabbed a necktie/scarf from the doorknob before! Well, pretty much the second I was completely under control things went south. First I was left in the room by myself for over an hour while the SOB made lunch. And, of course, I was steamed. I got angry. I yelled. I cursed. I demanded to be let go.
Well, MY anger fueled his anger.
Things went further south from there. After I was released, it took all my might not to pummel him. I left never to return.
The reason I believe this is relevant is because it is an example of how an individual can turn under the “right” circumstances. He had a deep-seeded need to dominate me. He took the opportunity when it presented itself.
Perhaps Joe saw the opportunity.
Makes sense how the memory arose. Back in college, it happened that some boy would NOT get the very obvious “you are barking up the wrong tree” message with me – we would be out, me thinking we were “friends”, and he would “try” something. Not interested, tried to be nice about it (talk about a genuine “it’s not you, it’s me” situation). But more times than I like to think about, I felt pretty threatened, and often humor did the trick to extricate myself safely. Once, though, I was pushed up against a wall, and I had to twist and turn and throw elbows to make my point understood. I know it happens a lot where women (and men) are not so lucky.
All this is to say that I do think the scene on Swann that night was more of this ilk than a “let’s rape Robert when he comes over tonight” thing. It was rape, nevertheless, and premeditated murder, and the perpetrators should pay dearly.
Absolutely. Motive doesn’t matter. Why it happened doesn’t matter. The fact that it HAPPENED is what matters. And that those men are prosecuted eventually for murder.
CD,
I see what you are saying, and I agree that a “straight forward” seduction could have been attempted. But we all see this through the prism of our own experiences.
When I was about 20 I had a male friend of many years I used to drink and dope up w/. Sometimes, of course, he would make sly comments but I made it very clear that I didn’t see him that way.
Once I crashed at his house, and passed out like a rock halfway through a “mixed drink.” When I woke up I realized he had messed with me in my sleep.
This makes me think of Robert’s plight–the assault on me was clearly preplanned, w/ no flirting, Barry White, etc. He’d had a thing for me from way back and planned accordingly. Why couldn’t it be the same w/ Robert? I don’t see any evidence which conflicts w/ this.
Nora, I’m sorry….that a**hole should have been fileted for that.
The only undisputable facts we have are that 1. Robert arrived. 2. Robert was killed.
Until we see forensic results, detailed autopsy results, toxicology reports, etc. we don’t have anything to go on but our imaginations as to what transpired between 1 and 2. So, all in all, there’s not really any evidence that conflicts or supports any of our theories.
Sadly.
Thanks, I guess what I’m saying is that it just feels wrong–that Robert would stay in the house after a seduction attempt that went so bad that Joe got angry. Robert was a sharp guy; in order to do the amazing things he did in his short life he had to’ve been a good judge of people. If Joe was in any way aggressive instead of “crafty” from the get-go, I feel as tho Robert would’ve caught on. Add to that the straight, happily married status, wife knows he’s there, etc.–it doesn’t sound right to me. Joe was no fool either. I don’t think consensuality was expected.
Huzzahs to Bea and CD here, but will a jury be so caught up in the elusive why that they will not see the more obvious how? Sigh! And, who is that elusive fourth person who may have disposed of the “stuff?”
I don’t think there was a 4th person, necessarily. I think everything that happened that night could have been accomplished by 3 people.
There are probably 500 trashcans within a 9 block radius of 1509 Swann Street. If they bundled up some rinsed off rags and towels in a Whole Foods bag and dumped it down the street, the likelihood of the MPD finding it isn’t very high. The likelihood of the MPD LOOKING for it isn’t very high. The likelihood of a neighbor searching through their own trash the next morning to see if there is “foreign” garbage in their trashcan isn’t very likely.
I don’t think it took a 4th person to dispose of anything. And I don’t think they would want to involved a 4th person whom they would have to worry about talking.
“Where did the blood go?” has to be a resounding theme from opening statement to closing argument. I think it’s the evidentiary centerpiece – what intruder would take the blood/bloody clean-up stuff with him?
BEA
I did not mean to suggest that the frequency of
“cheating” among lesbians is comparable to that among Gay men. I am well aware of scholarly and anecdotal evidence to the contrary. Based upon studies, my primary point of comparison was with Straights. I did not intend to offend. Sorry):
RS
I am uncertain as to the degree of premeditation prior to Wone’s arrival. I tend to agree w/ those who suspect that Robert’s water (or whatever) was
“spiked” with date rape drug like GMBH while he was conversing in kitchen with Price and/or Ward.
However, it is hard to believe that the spiking of Robert’s drink was a “spur of the moment” idea.
I believe that next step was shooting Robert full of ketamine to paralyze him. I believe that pillow was placed over Wone’s face when he appeared to awaken after being subdued by one drug or the other. However, I am not sure at what point.
I must confess to being more than a little skeptical about the Ward massage & acupuncture scenario which would have brought the happy heterosexual,
Wone, more proximate to a potenital involvement in sexual activity with homosexuals — albeit friends — even for the liberal, open minded Wone.
I tend to agree with those who do not think that the stabbing was completely premeditated. I think stabbing took place in the belief either that Robert was alive when he was dead or dead when he was alive — again I am not sure which was in minds of the rapists who would ultimately become killers.
Based upon forensic evidence regarding stabbing, I tend to think that only one of trio stabbed Robert –probably Ward who had the culinary expertise to inflict surgical wounds. Also Ward was the one most inured to inflicting pain as well as the most likely to know that culinary knives were present in his own bedroom. This does not mean that Price
may not have played a role in directing the action.
On one level, I share Bea’ s desire to believe that Zaborsky was innocent in the intial plans and/or acts though I am persuaded that Victor became involved after the fact if for no other reason than to protect the man he loved — Joseph Price.
Similarly, I might like to believe that Victor’s phone conversation with emergency responder’s was true hysteria except for the fact that he said some pretty strange things for one concerned about the fate of another — even had that other been a total stranger which was not the case here.
I do not think that Victor was crazy about Joseph’s relationship with Dylan. Had he been so, Price and Zaborsky would not still be engaging in efforts to bring Ward into their emotional relationship.
Furthermore, there would have been no need to seek a third S&M participant outside of Victor.
In any event, I do believe that Price’s unrequited love for Wone played a role as well as Ward’s Asian fetish. Of what I am unsure is whether Price “the control freak” enlisted the assistance of Ward “the obedient dominant” or Dylan enticed Joseph in order to fulfill Joseph’s fantasy and otherwise secure what I speculate to have been his increasingly tenuous position in the household.
I would be interested to hear more from posters about what they think may have been the roles of Michael “the mule” Price, his domestic partner
“the alibi” Hinton, his partner-in-crime “the torturor” Phelps and/or Sarah “the fag hag.”
Nora says: “I guess what I’m saying is that it just feels wrong–that Robert would stay in the house after a seduction attempt that went so bad that Joe got angry.”
Well, first I don’t imagine that Joe would have exhibited his anger at Robert when Robert may have rebuffed him. What I can imagine a person like Joe (narcissist/psychopath) would do is take it in stride. “Sorry Robert…it won’t happen again.” But while walking away, his anger builds and then the underlying psychopath emerges. He returns, anger having built up, and assaults Robert.
But if a few angry words WERE spoken, I don’t imagine Robert running out of the house. “Joe, I’m sick of this….I’m going to bed. We’ll need to talk in the morning.” They had been friends for over a decade. A person doesn’t imagine his long time friend will kill him. Not to mention, he need to call Kathy at 11pm and say I need to come home. Can you pick me up at 1 am?
Agree. Joe plays it cool and walks away (briefly) OR the attack is swift, deliberate and effective. Joe was a LOT bigger than Robert – and likely chock full of testosterone and some unnatural substances. Robert is tired, unsuspecting, and maybe turns away to leave. Game over.
With respect to all here, I think CD and Bea may be right about it being more of a spur-of-the-moment assault. I mean, look at the disarray of the crime scene–does that look like careful planning? If they’d had two weeks to set this up, don’t you think they could at least have gotten the dosage right?
The descriptions of Price make him sound impulsive, arrogant, greedy. “On edge”–prone to bad reactions when he doesn’t get his way. When his narcissism is wounded.
Factor in professional jealousy, possibly a “My little Asian sidekick is doing so well now he thinks he’s too good for me” moment. Add drugs and some hot summer hormones…bad news.
Just speculation.
Mike, I’ve often thought that jealousy played a part in this.
Robert had become a successful attorney, was embarking on a new phase in his career, and was respected by all.
Joe’s “mentee” had arrived and was going places.
If Joe was indeed a narcissist, this probably didn’t bode well.
I have let many presumptions and assertions of fact with which I disagree go unchallenged. This one I cannot let go unchallenged for some reason.
What RW did in accepting the GC position at RFA was noble. He took a huge pay cut to stand up for principal. And though many in this audience are preinclinced to see otherwise, he also took a hit professionally.
In the legal world, a partner at a national law firm is more esteemed than a GC at a small non-profit. I cannot fathom JP being jealous professonally. It doesn’t happen.
I say this as someone who has practiced public interest law since graduation. I was the first person in my class to serve as counsel of record on a first degree murder case (my first trial in fact). Regardless, public service is generally seen as a refuge for the less talented. I could go on. Unlike some, however, I see no reason to speak to my “successes” (all in the eye of the beholder). This I can state fairly definitively though, JP did not envy RP for becoming GC at RFA.
People who take positions like that of GC at RFA do it out of love and commitment, not professional recognition.
My sister became a regional GC for a Fortune 500 company when she was in her mid-30’s, even though neither of our parents completed the tenth grade. Given our combined experiences, I think I can speak with some , though not complete, authority on the issue.
I don’t know, Themis. I’ve lived in Washington DC all my life. No offense to the attorney bloggers (and not to mention I sleep with one every night), but law firm attorneys are a dime a dozen in this city.
But, I think you summed up your post in these few words…..”In the legal world.”
There’s a lot more going on in DC than just law firms and lawyers. It’s also a world center for international affairs and politics, which Robert was certainly on his way to making a mark in.
Radio Free Asia is not a “small non-profit.” It’s a international radio broadcasting (non-profit) corporation. That’s like saying the BBC or Voice of America is an oldies AM radio station.
The world impact an organization like RFA or VOA has far outweighs the impact of a lawfirm that caters to private concerns.
And I’ve walked through the revolving doors of a top 10 Washington DC international lawfirm for the past 25 years.
Robert trumped Joe.
Having worked in global law firms for over 20 years, I agree that JP being jealous of RW is a little over the top. I just don’t see it – factually. A partner in a very large firm such as AF holds a very esteemed position in the legal community and most communities.
I guess we are all going to have to agree to disagree on this one.
I have to add one more thing about this topic…..how many law firm attorneys (associate and partners alike) are truly happy? The advent of the “lifestyle” lawfirm speaks volumes. And the “public service” Themis speaks of, is more often than not, a refuge from the DEMANDS of working for a lawfirm. So, “success” can ring very hollow to many.
Perhaps Joe was jealous of Robert’s decision to seek greater meaning in life. Lord only knows Joe needed to find some.
I agree with everyone, oddly, in that I think among the legal community (nods to CD for noting that’s a small, stuffy community of which I am one) that being a partner at Arent trumps being GC at RFA. That said, it may well have pissed off Joe that Robert stopped following his advice, his lead, and found his own -and admirable- way. I doubt it was really a major factor in what happened that night, but possible that Joe was irritated by it, pig-headed power whore that he was/is.
Nod back to Bea.
As I’ve mentioned before, my partner is a law firm attorney (previously public service – assistant attorney general for a state that will go unmentioned)….I know first hand how hard an attorney works to get ANYWHERE in a law firm. Props for that. Lots of props. (Frankly, I’m VERY proud of my partner.)
I’m just of the belief that being a partner in a law firm is not necessarily the penacle of all success. Success is personal. Success is very personal.
I just think Robert had taken a position that could make change. Global change. RFA is an organization that is a lifeline from communist countries to the rest of the world. His counsel would be more than negotiating building leases for the company. He would have dealt with international laws and policy. His work would have benefited “the masses” so to speak. Not just a client.
I, for one, think Robert’s new position was pretty damn impressive.
Thanks for allowing us to presume and assert, Themis. What I don’t understand is this preoccupation with “professional status.” At the end of the day, does your ranking w/in the “legal world” really matter? Isn’t it more important to do something valuable, conscientious, make your personal mark? In my estimation Robert was worth a thousand Prices just for the integrity and even altruism he showed in his life choices. We’re all different, but I feel as though if I were someone like Price, Robert’s blacksheep passion would rankle.
Actually, I personally have no preoccupation with professional status. I’m a lifelong public service, who has served in the military and as a VISTA Volunteer. I have spent my entire legal career, aside from clerking, representing indigent criminal defendants, including those who have admitted committing heinous crimes. Public defenders, especially those that represent clients charged with capital murder or clients on death row, are not the most esteemed segment of the legal profession. Most of us do it out of committment to justice for all despite the public perception and the low pay.
I admire Robert’s decision. I don’t think he took the job for prestige or power, but rather out of generosity of spirit and a desire to give back to the community he dearly loved.
But I think it is highly unlikely that JP was professionally jealous given the fact that he made partner right on time and performed fairly significant pro bono work himself. I’ve met many a law firm type who assume that you’re chose the public sector because you could’t hack in the private sector.
CDC/BEA/MIKE
Though I do not totally disagree with your sound
analayses, date rape frequently takes place after a prior rebuff. I am thinking that Price may have been rejected by Wone on a prior occasion and planned to dose him with GMBH on this one.
The idea of injecting him with ketamine may have come later & even been an idea cooked up by Ward.
In any event, I agree with those who don’t believe that the stabbing was planned by them in advance.
I tend to think that the stabbing occurred in a fit of panic (not rage) when Ward and Price thought –correctly or incorrectly — either that Robert was alive when he was dead or dead when he was alive.
This is all very sad to me and I fear that conviction
on obstruction of justice may prevent a murder prosecution on account of double jeopardy.
Not that there may be choice under circumstances
where none of the Swann Street residents comes forward. One can only hope for the best.
Well said. I wonder if anyone is even able to have a conversation with Victor without Joe present – that has to be a constant concern for Joe, narcissist or not. Victor’s lawyer has to have sat him down and told him in no uncertain terms that what is best for the trouple is likely not best for Victor personally.
I actually believe VZ is the last person who is going to talk or give up JP or anyone that JP is very close to that will set JP off, i.e., DW. VZ is b/t a rock and a hard place, and he has been excellent at “waiting it out” in many more situations than this one. He is blinded by love and JP knows it and will keep the flame going,
Sadly, I suspect you may be correct. Damn it, Victor. . .
As I’ve mentioned before on other posts, there may be more than just love at work here. Could fear of Joe not be a motivating factor in his silence as well?
Hi WH,
I think Victor is in a bad position. He did cooperate with the cover-up STORY if not aid in the cleaning operation (some still think he was involved in the murder, but fewer). Joe may have him all twisted up about how he’s going ‘down’ with them if they’re convicted and ‘might as well’ be a team player to beat the wrap (“poor Robert won’t come back regardless, darling, and you know we never meant to hurt him”).
But possibly he is afraid of Joe, in addition to loving the hell out of the bastard.
True, he may be afraid of legal consequences more than Joe, but I agree both may be factors at work. That said, he is smart enough to know that he will have a substantially lighter sentence if he talks. Is he still betting on an acquittal for everyone? Can you lawyer folks give a realistic estimate of the chance of a successful prosecution with the evidence we currently have? Thanks
P.S. Bea–aren’t you a west coaster? Get some sleep! 😉
Bea says: “But possibly he is afraid of Joe, in addition to loving the hell out of the bastard.”
Very much a battered “wife” behavior.
1. Yes, Robert’s rape (but not murder) was premeditated.
2. Yes, a fourth person was involved in disposing of the evidence.
Beyond that, we are still trying to figure out.
John, “premeditated rape” in the sense of they decided to assault him though he was unwilling to consent, I agree – but I don’t think it was “predetermined” that they would do so before he arrived. Maybe “predetermined” that they would try to convince him, but I don’t think it was as concrete as “we’ll rape him if he doesn’t agree”.
Along the same lines, I think the STABBING was a premeditated act in the sense of being a conscious decision (the perfect wounds don’t suggest ‘rage’). I suspect the stabbing was pre-mortem, but whether they thought he was dead when they did it would come into play. But I agree they didn’t PLAN to murder him before he arrived.
I agree with you that a fourth person was likely involved in disposing of evidence. CD has made a good point that one of them could have made a run for a nearby (but not TOO close) dumpster, but I’ve always thought it too convenient that Sarah was “out” that evening. I think she DID go out and stayed out – but around 11:30ish, with a Hefty bag of evidence, and did not return. The story of her not being there to account for the ignored ‘chimes’, the self-serving call Joe made at 6:00 am, just doesn’t ring true to me. It’s not a big red flag that she got a lawyer fairly quickly, as innocent people sometimes do this (and possibly being “friends” with Joe would necessitate this), but it is yet another odd thing in my mind.
It’s such a shame that more evidence has not been released. I’m sure much of the evidence will not surface until trial.
I would hope they produce phone records (including pings), interview results from Tom & John, and anything else that could shed MORE light on this puzzling case.
Bea – If that is the case with Sarah, then Tom and John are both material witnesses too, right?
CD – Maybe some additional evidence may surface from the September 11 status hearing?
We hope!
Tom and John would definitely be material witnesses if Sarah rang their doorbell, unexpectedly, late that night (let’s say 11:54) all harried and with smidges of blood on her hands. Or even freshly showered.
My hope is this: warrant to wiretap since the trio was released from monitoring. I’ve been thinking it for a while, and decided to post it – VICTOR, it’s TIME!
Bea, do you mean wire Victor??
Or tap their home phones?
I’m hoping that the phones have been tapped and that Aunty Marcia’s house has been tapped for quite some time (within parameters of whatever warrant was obtained) AND that Victor has been made aware of this, recognizes that it is in his best interest to do the right thing.
~~Wouldn’t it be loverly~~
A girl can dream . . .
I don’t know; wiretaps, compelling evidence, impending imprisonment … what will it take for Victor to turn on these two psychos?
I just don’t know.
Surely by now we can assume that Victor can not possibly still believe that an intruder came into the house and attacked Robert, though I am in the school that thinks he may well have believed it that night. Or can one assume either of these things?
Someone more intelligent than I am would have to correct me as to the timeline, but couldn’t a whole lot of sexual attacking, murdering and tidying have taken place before Victor’s famous scream? I still think the two murderers thought that they could bundle Robert up and dispose of him and that they had already made one disposal run with evidence like towels and knife before Victor screamed.
They planned to tell Victor that Robert either never showed up or that he left unexpectedly. Victor wakes up or comes downstairs and screws up that plan, so the further tidying and knife planting and the “go upstairs Victor” instructions would constitute plan B (or Plan C really, since I don’t believe that they initially intended to murder Robert, only drug and rape him ~ which would be Plan A, disgusting as that may be).
AnnaZed says: “since I don’t believe that they initially intended to murder Robert, only drug and rape him ~ ”
I don’t believe even the rape was premeditated….because if they had planned to attack Robert, they would have planned to kill him, as well.
they certainly couldn’t have thought that they could get away with rape. Surely Robert would have had them arrested.
So, IF the rape was premediated….so was teh murder.
But I don’t think either were premeditated. I think it just happened. Something pushed Joe over the edge.
THEMIS/CDCINDC
I went to NYU Law School the 1970’s, when school
offered scholarships to entice students to enter
public interest law.
That program still exists along with additonal such
programs. It should come as no surprise that most
of my classmates became corporate lawyers, many
in large law firms.
Personally, I went to law school for the purpose of
becoming a public interest lawyer and pursued
such a career.
While I agree with Themis that large firm lawyers
tend to be regarded as holding higher station than
public interest lawyers within the legal profession,
those of us in publ interest law may feel different.
In any case, personally I do not feel this played a
role in the murder of Wone by Price and company.
BEA
I agree with your general analysis of this case.
However, I think this was a “date rape” situation.
To my knowledge, there are three major types of
date rape cases: 1) where there was a prior rebuff;
2) where there was a current rebuff; 3) where
more than one person was involved in a group.
In this case, I think that Robert may have rebuffed
Joseph on a previous occasion. For me then the
the question becomes at what point Dylan was
brought into the situation. Personally, I think
Dylan’s involvement took place that night.
What is uncertain for me is whether that evening
Price asked Ward to help Joseph fulfill Joseph’s
theretofore undisclosed pre-existing fantasy, that
evening Price asked Ward to help Joseph fulfill
Joseph’s theretofore disclosed fantasy or that
evening Dylan offered to help Price fulfill Price’s
fantasy which may have been disclosed long prior
to that evening, disclosed not so long prior to that
evening or just disclosed on that fateful evening.
In any event, you and I have agreed repeatedly
that the stabbing was not planned prior to that
evening. We also agree that the stabbing does not
appear to have been committed in a fit of rage. As
I have before stated, I believe that the stabbing
was most likely to have been committed by Ward
who has the culinary expertise and was most likely
to know location of culinary knives in his room.
GRISHAM/BEA
More and more, I attend to agree with you that
there was another person involved with disposal
of incriminating evidence. And I agree with Bea
that given nature of call to Sarah that she is a
good candidate though Michael Price is still a
conceivable though not reliable possibility.
One has to wonder what if any light friends Tom &
John can shed on Sarah’s coming and going?
CDINDC
I presume that you understand why additional
evidence cannot be disclosed by law enforcement
prior to trial. Such disclosure could prejudice
whatever sort of prosecution is planned.
As it is, the publication of the Ward affidavit is
highly unusual in my experience. I believe that
such was in a “Hail Mary” hope that one or more
of the defendants would break from others.
I don’t think that Joe came on to Robert previously or that Robert previously rebuffed him because I don’t think that Robert would have gone there to spend the night if that had happened before. I also highly doubt that Robert would submit to or be in any way inclined to undergo a “nice massage” from Dylan as has been suggested elsewhere on this blog.
My experience with people who are long time drug and alcohol abusers is that they are capable of nursing quite bizarre and illogical fantasies over long periods of time and that “he’s secretly attracted to me” or “he’s secretly into me and he’s coming over to spend the night proves that” would be a relatively tame fantasy for a person who’s mind has been warped that way.
I think that with Joe and Dylan though you get the crucial extra element thrown into the mix; a folie à deux as mentioned before. I hate to bring up Leopold and Loeb, but I think this crime is not unlike that crime in that I think the sexual attack on Robert was planned in advance. The rapid decent into madness and murder was basically preordained by the sexual scenario though Joe and Dylan were, in my opinion, so caught in the fantasy that they could not (or would not) see that. It’s like the broken window theory of crime fighting; once they crossed the line in attacking Robert ~ there was no turning back.
AnnaZ….agree 100% with paragraph 2. It’s definitely a very viable scenario. Considering his drug usage. And ketamine abuse has been know to cause mental instability/rage.
Paragraph 1 is up for debate though. I’ve had a friend come on to me. We dealt with it at the time. It passed. We maintained a friendship afterwards. Not to mention my exs that are friends. Things pass and change with time.
ANNAZED
Though I agree with you about warped sensibilities
of drug and/or alcohol abusers, not surpisingly I
agree with CDINDC who agrees with me about
possiblity of a prior rebuff that would not forbid a
subsequent sleep over by Wone at Swann Street.
If I am correct in this and I may very well not be,
then you may be prescient in thinking that Robert
would have been better served by not doing so.