Just a Few Short Blocks Away Down 15th Street… (Updated Again)
Paul Duggan (and Meg Smith) unload a solid piece of work here. Part 2 here.
The transcript of Mr. Duggan’s online chat is here. Topics covered: Sarah Morgan, Michael Price, Phelps Collins, the BlackBerry, Ketamine, Culuket, Alt.com, the intruder theory, Blackwater and the civil suit.
There is a lot to go through here and plenty of time to do it; 49 weeks until the trial. Later this week, Robert’s life in the words of his family and friends from the heartbreaking yet incredibly inspiring memorial service held for him.
Mandy, a lawyer colleague of mine totally agrees with your planned murder theory. She also wouldn’t be surprised to find a link to serial killings that lined up with travel itineraries of one or more of the fellas.
Personally I can’t wrap my brain around thinking one could get away with murder, given the advances in forensics that are the stuff of nightly drama on the big TV networks.
Then again, as has been demonstrated, if you want to plan a murder and get away with it, you’d want to pick someplace where the investigation isn’t going to be up to CSI snuff, and that would appear to be DC.
Gracious — a planned murder? If so, why so poorly planned by such smart people? This thing is practically Col. Mustard in the library with a candlestick. A dead body — mutual friend — everything super spotless — totally P.D. James. Maybe even Miss Marple.
It seems to me that any “planning” was done after the fact. As in, planning how not to be convicted of murder…
Why do so many want to believe that the Arent Fox partner — super smart, clearly capable professionally if not privately — is the mastermind murderer? Sometimes the person who seems to be in control actually isn’t. I think in Robert Wone’s final night, Joe Price was not in control at all. If he was, I doubt his friend of 15 years would be dead.
But that’s the whole point. Obviously, these guy(s) planned it out very well. They aren’t being charged for murder. And IF we know everything the police do, which is doubtful but possible, they never will with the lack of evidence. A lawyer would know whether or not his city’s police force is “top notch” or the Keystone Kops. A lawyer would know to get rid of as much forensics evidence as possible and not sweat the small stuff that he knows would not convict him. But a lawyer would also know not to make it look too good ‘lest the lack of evidence points straight back to him. Again, it’s as possible as the intruder theory in my mind.
First let me just say my heart goes out to Robert and his family. What an absolutely tragic waste of a dedicated and wonderful young man.
The article and these scenarios have been going around in my head since I read the Post article. Has any thought been given to the outside patio as the actual scene of the crime? The dogs alerted to the drainage hole in the patio. I saw mention of a theory where the perpetrator(s) cleaned off outside. But what if the actual crime took place out there and all the evidence was washed down the drain.
Robert could have been given a paralytic drug that affected him while they were all sitting on the patio drinking their “water” and talking. It was a hot night so he would have changed into shorts and a t-shirt while he caught up with old friends. He becomes immobilized in his shorts and t-shirt from something slipped to him in the water. This is after having unpacked his bag and neatly arranging his room. An assault ensues. Things get out of hand and someone grabs the cutlery set from the kitchen that has been left out from dinner. Everything could have happened there and been shielded by the privacy fence.
It seems as if the cleanup would be pretty easy and then the victim was “showered” out there. The body could easily be transported to the clean bed and pristine room. Night guard put in (a convincing touch). Clothes dried in the dryer and then replaced on the body (i.e. why the dogs alarmed on the lent trap).
Also, the perpetrators could have rinsed themselves outside as well as hosed down the patio itself. Clothes and bloody towels disposed of elsewhere. Just run out the back and down the street and stick them in a dumpster.
If the outside patio was not focused on as a possible crime scene and instead focus was mainly on removing floor boards and inspecting the second floor, this could have resulted in the lack of discovered evidence.
All of this would explain the lack of blood in the drains of the upstairs bathrooms or why the dogs didn’t alarm on those spots. Nobody showered there. Also this cuts way down on cleanup time.
It even seems possible that Victor did not take part (thus shows genuine fear and confusion on the phone call). He wakes up when he hears the chime of Joe and Dylan carrying Robert in from the back patio. They place him in his bed. Then retire to their rooms. Dylan fakes a low moaning or screaming. Victor and the recently arrived Joe run downstairs. Dylan comes out after. Victor is none the wiser. Or a variety of scenarios on participants.
My main point is the crime could definitely have occurred outside. This would cut down on time, make it easier to dispose of evidence with the hose, and further explain the lack of blood in the house.
Mike – I thought about the outside drain washing theory as well, but what about the whatever they found on the wall of the guest room that they are claiming is trace blood? I realize the police screwed up the luminol process, but I don’t think they are saying the blood evidence is not there. If he was showered outside, why would there be blood on the wall, floor and leading toward the hall doorway of that room? So, I threw out that theory. Also, I don’t believe they ever claimed to sit on the patio. While perfectly plausable that RW would change into a t shirt and shorts before going down to socialize, Price/Ward stated that they went into the kitchen and shared a glass of water (does that terminology sound strange to anyone else), Price saw a spider on an outside light and went out to get rid of the spider. No one else ever claimed to be outside. There’s just way too many holes for any plausible reasoning that I can come up with.
or he was stabbed in the shower.
I believe I read that the outside drain was taken for evidence.
The trace evidence could have been minimal. It could have been blood that was transported there when they moved the body. Or it could have come from one of the perpetrators hands after touching Robert on the way up the stairs. Also, it may not be blood at all because of the botched reagent application. And why would anyone admit to being outside if that is where the murder took place? It would benefit them not to mention ever having been out there. That way they don’t draw attention to the location.
Also, Victor sure says “we” a lot on the 911 call. This shows the three housemates had deliberated prior to calling 911. Otherwise he would have said I think it was an intruder.
It seems evident to me that there are 3 possibilities here, one far more likely than the others. The idea of an intruder is ridiculous on its face. The circumstances required for an intruder to have committed this crime are so far-fetched as to be impossible, as clearly spelled out in the police affidavit seeking a warrant to charge Ward with obstruction. Even if the circumstances had been more favorable for an intruder, the condition of the body itself and the crime-scene evidence makes the intruder theory fall apart. Why (and how) would an intruder clean the crime scene, then leave the body, and a bloody knife (and without being discovered)? There is also the issue of the cadaver dogs being alerted to human remains (presumably blood) in the drain on the outdoor patio and also in the lint receptacle in the dryer. Besides, you have a dead body that shows signs of drug use, sexual activity of some sort – and a man down the hall with a history of drug use and a wide variety of implements used for sexual torture. Sometimes 2+2=4. The intruder theory does not hold water.
So then you have 3 possibilities within the house:
1) Pre-meditated sexual assault and murder. This is the least likely scenario. If 3 (or even 1 or 2) of these presumably highly intelligent men were going to plan something like this, there wouldn’t be so many inconsistencies, questions and problems with the evidence. And why would they plan something like that? By all accounts Wone was a close friend, and they would risk throwing away their careers and spending their lives in prison for a sexual encounter, when they evidently hooked up with guys with no risk (of jail at least) via an internet site… doesn’t make sense.
2) Spur of the moment sexual assault and murder. Perhaps. Maybe Ward and Price (or Ward alone) could have been ‘playing’ in Ward’s bedroom while Zaborsky slept – perhaps using drugs – and who knows what happens in the heat of the moment when lust-crazed and drugged-addled. Maybe the idea of the fresh meat down the hall was too irresistible to pass up, but again this seems unlikely. Again, would they (or he) risk throwing everything away? I guess rapists do this all the time and it’s just hard to understand the though process of someone who commits sexual violence, but there are other problems with this theory – namely the needle marks. It would be hard to fathom that Ward or Price would have been able to inject Hone so precisely had Hone not been a willing partner. Which leads to the most likely scenario:
3) Hone was a willing participant in a sex game gone very wrong. Maybe he had planned it out, and used the flimsy excuse of staying over with friends in order to make it happen. (It’s a short drive to Oakton, where Hone lived with his wife. Why stay the night to catch up, especially if you’re only going to chat a few minutes over a bottled water and then go to bed? What’s the point?) Maybe it was a spur of the moment thing, and Hone got caught up in the possibilities and decided to “be wild.” The tight time-frame of all of the events would seem to indicate that it was planned in advance. But whatever the circumstance, he was injected with ketamine and involved in some sort of sex with Ward and/or Price, when the drug evidently overtook him. Ketamine can cause a paralytic state, and Hone – with a reputation for being squeaky clean – was probably a novice. It’s easy to misjudge how much of the drug can incapacitate someone. Then what happens… Ward and/or Price panics. If they call 911 to try and help save their friend, they are going down the drain for drug charges, and who knows – perhaps manslaughter or even murder if Hone dies. While Hone struggles, they panic. What to do? They are in a state of shock and panic and probably under the influence of drugs themselves, and are not thinking clearly. They come up with a half-baked idea of getting rid of the body and claiming Hone never arrived, or of an intruder killing him. Perhaps one of them at this point holds the pillow over the face of Hone to suffocate him, but can’t go through with it (thus leading to the indications in the autopsy of breath being withheld at some point.) Then Ward grabs the knife from his room and stabs Hone. Maybe they decide the best thing to do is get rid of the body and pretend that Hone didn’t show up, so they frantically clean the scene and the body… only to realize at some point this plan won’t work because if Hone failed to appear there should have been a call from Price to Hone’s blackberry asking where he was, and a review of phone records would indicate this call never took place. So the intruder theory takes shape as the only alternative (if they were going with an intruder theory from the beginning, why bother cleaning the scene? They had to have changed plans before the 911 call). It’s far-fetched and risky, but as long as they all stick to their stories, the cops would have a hard time proving anything. They dispose of evidence – probably bloody clothes, towels, and Ward’s knife, quickly perhaps down the street in a dumpster, or elsewhere. They plant a phony message on Hone’s blackberry to help with their timeline, and put Hone’s mouthpiece into his mouth. They take a few moments to get their story straight, and then feeling they can wait no longer, Zaborsky makes his panicky call to 911. They are helped along by some inept police work and by the fact that they are smart guys who have managed to stick to their stories. As for Zaborsky, his involvement is questionable for sure – most likely he was alerted to the situation and brought downstairs to help clean-up. But they know that at this point, it will be hard to prove murder, so as long as none of them talk…..
CG –
I find the first part of your third scenario above to be highly implausible. In addition to the sex game gone very wrong, it requires two additional conspiracies, both of which don’t make sense if you step back from the initial prejudices of the “why would a straight man stay at the home of a gay friend” question.
First, your scenario assumes that Robert was secretly gay or bisexual and hiding it from his family and friends. There is no evidence for this assumption other than the fact that Robert was friends with Joe and crashed at his house. However, unlike a Brokeback Mountain-type relationship, Robert didn’t spend time and nights away from his family. He didn’t vacation alone with Joe. He wasn’t just married, he was happily married. The police also investigated that angle and came up with no evidence that Robert had any sexual relationships with other men or men from the Swan Street house. As I mentioned in a post above, your theory of would also require that Robert not just have a secret relationship with Joe, but for Robert to be into drugs (not just pot or shrooms, but drugs administered by needles), group sex, sex games, possibly asphysixiation, and possibly inserting one’s semen into their own rectum, etc. That’s quite an assumption, and all of the evidence points away from that direction.
Second, if Robert was truly secretly gay or bi, your scenario 3 would require all of the defendants to “lie” to the investigators about his “true” sexuality. Now, if Robert was really in some sort of sexual relationship with Joe and/or Dylan, would the defendants be absolutely sure that no one else would know about it? If a friend or another confidant of Robert knew of a Joe/Dylan/Robert sexual relationship and told the police, then all three of the Swan Street defendants would be immediatley proven as liars. So I find it implausible that the one, two or three defendants would murder Robert in a sex game gone wrong, and then agree to tell a “lie” that Robert was just a platonic friend.
From the little evidence we’ve seen, I find it much more likely that Robert was over at the house for the reasons he told his family – to work late in the city, and crash conveniently with an old friend. Then, I’d speculate that he was incapacitated, possibly through spiking his drink with (culu)KET, and then kept incapacitated through the use of drugs administered via a hypodermic needle. I’d again speculate that he was then sexually assaulted with the use of Dylan’s sex toys – seriously, what are the odds that an electro-ejaculation machine just happens to be in the house – and then something went wrong. Either the attackers thought he was dead due to the drugs, or Robert woke up and became aware of his surroundings. At that point I agree with your speculation going about what happened going forward…..
I wonder if the defense team can muster up ANY evidence that Robert was attacked by an intruder.
Even if the defense can keep them out of jail due to a lack of evidence and witnesses, they won’t be able to stop a civil suit, and the defendant’s will likely run out of $$$$$$ for their high priced attorneys. Justice via the dollar?
rk,
Obviously this is all speculation, and you very well might be correct.
I think you would have to weigh the relative liklihood of 2 things:
1) Wone decides either in advance or on the spur of the moment to partake in sexual activities with the defendants, or
2) 1 or more of the defendants would risk their careers and freedom and plan to incapacitate someone – a close friend – in order to sexually assault him.
What happens when Wone recovers from his incapacitated state? Do the perpetrator(s) hope that he won’t remember, or is the plan to kill him all along? If the plan is to kill him all along, why was it so shoddily executed in a way that seemed very much thought-up on the fly? Drugging Wone via his water would require premeditation, and that just isn’t borne out by the circumstances surrounding the body and crime scene, in my opinion. Also, how would one know the precise amount of the drug to use to incapacitate him?
To me, the likeliest scenario is that Wone was incapacitated accidentally, which would indicate he was involved at least some degree in voluntary sexual play. Perhaps he had never done it before, perhaps he was merely curious, perhaps it was planned in advance. Who knows. But to me, it doesn’t seem all that implausible that a generally straight man might decide to experiment, especially with people he knows well and trusts. I find that more plausible than a sexual assault (especially one that is premeditated.)
But ultimately only those involved know all the answers, and hopefully the truth will come out. I feel horrible for Robert’s friends and family.
also, about the defendants lying about having any sexual contact with Robert – I would speculate that it would be more helpful for their “intruder” theory to deny any sex happened. If they opened that can of worms, that would lead to an entirely different set of questions that would be hard to answer, and it would also dramatically reduce the timeframe by which the “intruder” could have committed his act.
CG –
Agreed, it is incomprehensible that one or more of the defendants would risk their own career/life by sexually assaulting a friend. (Perhaps the attacker wasn’t a “friend” but merely an acquaintance – were Robert and Dylan really friends, or was Robert mostly friends with Joe?)
That being conceded, someone was out-of-their-mind-crazy enough to stab him in the heart. If that person was willing to stab him to death, then surely that person had lost all sense of right and wrong and would be willing to take the insane risk of sexually assaulting a friend and/or acquaintance. Using drugs to render victims unconscious is unfortunatley not that uncommon, and sometimes the victims are friends and acquaintencs – see, eg. date rape. The most uncommon aspect of the Wone case is the murder, not the sexual assault.
If you are crazy enough to kill someone, you are certainly crazy enough to spike someone’s drink and incapacitate them. Especially if you’re experienced with using drugs. At least two of the defendants have been accused of being involved with drugs.
I also agree that telling the police about consensual sex would limit the time frame of an intruder theory – but the intruder theory doesn’t require much of a time frame. It just requires someone to enter the house, stab Robert and run. Consensual pre-murder sex wouldn’t negate the “intruder” theory – it might actually explain some of the physical evidence on Robert’s body, and also explain why the defendants were freshly showered.
Again, if someone outside of Swan Street confirmed that Robert was gay or bi, there would be a giant hole in the defendant’s story. I’d speculate that when concocting their alibi, the defendants would not take that chance.
As far as Robert being curious and experimenting with friends, I find that highly unlikely. If you’re curious and decide to experiment for the first time (which is a huge leap in itself for a straight man), it’s not going to be in that a drugged up group setting.
It’s been stated in other comments that the consensus in the Dupont Circle community is that this was voluntary sex gone wrong. I think that perhaps some in the gay community underestimate the repulsion that a typical heterosexual man has towards the thought of engaging in gay sex (even with close friends), just as the heterosexual community probably underestimates the repulsion a typical gay man would feel in engaging in hetero-sex.
rk,
You make an excellent point about underestimating the repulsion a straight man might feel about gay sex. That is certainly true for many, and probably most, straight men. But as a gay man who has had several encounters with straight men, I will say that it’s hard to predict who will be willing to experiment.
I don’t disagree with you that someone who would shove a knife into someone’s body 3 times wouldn’t hesitate to drug someone. But I think the circumstances surrounding the stabbing were more of necessity and panic, as opposed to the premeditation it would have required to drug the water.
To me, the key piece of evidence (at least as far as the sexual assault vs. consensual sex argument) is the needle marks. Those marks would seem to rule out an assault unless, as you speculated, Wone’s water was drugged. But having the water drugged in advance means the crime was planned in advance, which just doesn’t seem to fit the scenario of what seems to have happened later. There is no indication whatsoever of a struggle, and there is plenty of indication that the cover-up was the result of sudden, panicked, thinking. If the crime was planned (i.e. the water drugged in advance), the cover-up would have been more carefully plotted, in my view. If there was an assault and a struggle, those marks would not be there in such a precise fashion. I believe the needle marks are the strongest indicator of consensual sex, but again it’s all speculation.
I think admitting sex with Robert would have opened the defendants up to questions like: 1) what did they do? 2) was Robert restrained 3) did he stop breathing? 4) was he drugged? Admitting sexual contact of any kind would strengthen the argument that it was either a sexual assault that they are trying to play off as consensual, or it was consensual sex involving drugs. I think it would be tremendously dangerous for any of them to admit to sex with Robert.
I don’t think that the lack of information from other sources about Robert’s sexual habits (him being gay or bi) necessarily rules out the possibility that this was his first time experimenting.
But ultimately whether it was consensual sex or an assault, I think the bottom line remains the same: Mr. Wone was incapacitated by drugs, and murdered. Hopefully justice will be served.
CG –
Thanks for trading ideas on this – it’s a truly baffling case. More speculation below……
I agree with you that the alleged murder cover-up seems hasty, poorly planned and not premeditated. That’s because I’d guess that while the sexual assault was premeditated, the alleged murder was not. The attacker might have planned to carry out an assault, put him back to bed and hope he’d wake up none the wiser. I’d guess that either Robert woke up (slightly) during the assault and the attacker(s) panicked, or the attacker(s) thought he died due to the drugs and then panicked. After that, as you indicated, it gets sloppy. And I agree that premeditated murder seems unlikely. Premeditated sexual assault – well, that doesn’t seem so far fetched to me.
What if the needle marks indicate an assault, and the needle was used to administer drugs after he had been knocked out by ket or some sort of roofie? If you were doing drugs voluntarily, why so many needle marks? Wouldn’t you just shoot up once and be done with it? Was Robert the type to do drugs in the first place? If he was knocked out by a drugged drink, it would explain the lack of a struggle, and the needle marks could be how the attacker(s) continued to keep him incapacitated (he couldn’t continue to drink whatever they gave him initially because he was unconscious).
And again, if this were his first time experimenting with gay sex, wouldn’t group/drugs via needles/S&M be the wrong setting? That’s quite an initiation for a first timer. If he was really bi-curious, wouldn’t it be more plausible that he’d get a little drunk and have some awkward one-on-one gay sex, rather than go straight to the hardcore drugs and then some group S&M?
Again, all speculation, and I agree with your conclusion. However it started, it ended in murder and tragedy.
rk,
You may very well be right. Sexual assault happens everyday and the motivation & thought process behind it can be impossible to decipher.
But I think it unlikely that one would premeditate a sexual assault on the vague hopes that their victim would fail to recognize what had happened. That seems difficult to envision, and risky beyond belief. The panicky aftermath of the killing argues against any sort of pre-planning, which would again indicate an accidental drug incapacitation and consensual sex. I think if Robert was already out cold from a previous drug ingestion, Ward and/or Price would have had no reason to inject him with ketamine, and it seems unlikely that they would have done so for fear of an overdose (especially if he was already drugged by then.)
As to whether or not Robert would be willing to take such a deep leap with his first experience with gay sex & drugs in such a setting… who knows. He knew and presumably trusted these guys, and had been friends with Price in particular for years. He may have heard stories about some of the things they did, and might have been curious. Perhaps Ward and/or Price offered to show him some things, all the while promising it would be safe and they could stop when he wanted. Awkward drunken fumbling is usually the way straight men “experiment”, for sure… but we don’t know the types of conversations that Mr. Wone had with the defendants about their activities. Assuming he was aware of them and was around these guys at least somewhat frequently, it may not have seemed like such an amazing leap.
For me, the wider leap would be to sexual assault. I don’t find gay/straight experimenting to be such an unusual situation. But under the influence of drugs and a sexual power-trip, who knows what might have happened… I don’t discount the possibility of assault, but it does seem like the less likely scenario in my opinion.
Thanks for the discussion. I need to log off the computer, but I’ll be checking back to follow the discussion and further developments.
rk says: “it is incomprehensible
that one or more of the defendants would risk
their own career/life by
sexually assaulting a
friend.”
oh, that’s right……people
that wear suits don’t
rape/murder.
Be real. People, all types of
people, make VERY VERY
bad decisions every day of
the week.
Don’t stereotype. Any type
of person is capable of this
kind of crime.
You need to read the following paragraph in my post (or even better, the entire post) before you twist my words and accuse me a stereotyping. Of course anyone is cabable of anything.
“But I think it unlikely that one would premeditate a sexual assault on the vague hopes that their victim would fail to recognize what had happened.”
Why not? This type of sexual assault when perpetrated against women isn’t even news anymore it is so common.
Exactly, AnnaZed. It’s even been given a fancy name….”date rape.’
Take a girl out….liquor her up….assault her…..common and everyday….especially on college campuses.
I respect that we’re all trying to step back and look critically at the situation. I hope these analyses help lead the police and prosecutors to the correct conclusions. I have to ask, though, out of respect for the deceased and for those of us who knew him (and who still feel pain every time we read the vivid descriptions of what was done to him that night), can we all try to get Robert’s name right?
I apologize for my typo-s in my post… I wrote it out quickly and somehow Wone ended up as “Hone”. Sorry about that.
Quite honestly, while not excusing that Price and Victor were involved AFTER the fact, in my mind, the evidence points straight to Ward as the perp.
1) He had the sex toys and we know he liked to dominate.
2) He was on medication for depression and insommnia (sleeping pills), which sounds almost bi-polar.
3) He was on the same floor, therefore easy access.
4) While quite intelligent, he was a bit “flighty” according to his collection of careers.
5) The others were overly quick to point out how Ward would never hurt anyone.
6) The article that the magazine was turn to in his room had a picture of someone posed almost exactly like Wone was posed.
7) When the EMT’s arrived, Price was on the bed looking despondant as anyone would seeing their friend murdered while
8.) Victor was very upset both on the phone and after the medics got there.
9) Ward was the only one who simply turned and walked away after seeing the medics.
Could Ward have done it and Price and Victor were awakened by the chime of Ward taking evidence outside? Then the “grunt” they heard being Ward grunting as if trying to move a body? When Price and Victor came downstairs, they saw the carnage and made up this story. A good lawyer knows to tell as much of the truth as possible – maybe all of that was truth. The lies came in after they got out of bed.
Note: I don’t mean to offend or upset anyone with my discussion of bi-polar or flighty personalities. This is all simply speculation.
There is absolutely nothing unusual about a person taking both antidepressants and sleeping meds. As I have pointed out before, many antidepressants are “activating” and therefore interfere with sleep. That’s why most antidepressats are taken in the morning. “Sedating” antidepressants such as Paxil and Remeron are taken at night.
Moreover, no doctor wanting to avoid a malpractice suit would prescribe two antidepressants for someone suspected of being bipolar because antidepressants can cause manic episodes. Instead, the doctor would prescribe a mood stabilizer or antidepressant/mood stabilizer combo.
I’m not looking to absolve anyone of anything, or accuse for that matter. But as someone whose career involves working with the mentally ill, I believe that it is imperative that people have accurate information about mental illnesses and the therapies used to treat them.
I always thought that the mention of Dylan “taking his pill” was a way to plant very early in the cops minds that he could not have anything to do with the crime — supporting that the intruder did it — because he was knocked out with his regular nightly sleeping pill. “….nothing unusual tonight officer….just the reading the New Yorker and taking his pill….”
To Themis: my mother is an RN in a private San Diego hospital that has a contract with the California prison system to treat mostly lifer inmates. (As in first degree murderers, etc.) Her constant shock and awe (medically) is re: how many, many psych meds these men are on. Sometimes 8-10, plus pain meds for things like stab wounds that will never heal. She often wonders which came first: the multiple meds or the crimes. It makes you think — especially when psych meds are combined with vast quantities of street drugs as may have been Dylan’s case. (And btw, my mom gives her patients the dignity of treating them simply as patients and not as prisoners — a point of pride with me.)
I suspect the role of drugs — willingly consumed by the men living on Swann St — or otherwise by the innocent RW — probably hold the key to the case. Hard to rationally analyze the actions of drug-frenzied folks.
I agree with you~Laura. Dylan taking his “meds” gives him a perfect “out”, in his mind anyway.
Knowing what I do about addiction, it also suprises me that people who are addicted also have a mental illness. My belief, the two go hand in hand. But if you are taking drugs recreationally or you are an addict, you still are responsible for your behavior.
IT — I agree re: addiction and responsibility. I’m not thinking so much about the addiction aspect, but rather the effects of being under the influence of an out-of-control mixture of psych meds and street drugs. It makes sense to me that people who are drawn to extremes — and I think serious drug abuse and violent S&M are examples of extreme behavior — might also be drawn to other extremes without even thinking of them as such.
Not to suggest that one implies the other — just that they may occasionally occur together.
I also think that when people are nervous for any reason, they tend to consume more than their usual drink/dose of whatever.
Maybe JP and DW were nervous about what they had planned — and they wanted it to be good for their friend. Like sharing a passion for collecting Barbi dolls, Japanese woodcuts, Confederate battle-flags — whatever. They wanted their friend to enjoy what they enjoyed. Maybe they thought they were initiating a novice to something over-the-top and crazy special — from their drug addled point of view anyway.
And then they met the libertarian terminus: when your liberties destroy someone else’s.
I would like to have been a fly on the wall at that Capitol Hill Cosi’s.
Why in the world didn’t the police ask Joe, Dylan, and Victor to take a drug test to corroborate their stories regarding Joe’s being drug free and 2 of these guys taking sleeping pills? The sleeping pill for Dylan is likely an excuse for why he didn’t hear anything during the assault. Or an attempt to say he did it in his sleep while taking ambien etc. They would have likely refused the test at the station but at least that would have been on the record during the interview. Instead there is no proof of the sleeping pills being in their system. And no proof that these guys were all clean and drinking water the night of the incident. If they had nothing to hide then they would have likely agreed to blood tests and this wouldn’t be an issue.
DC cops are incompetent.
And to CG — very thoughtful. The same thing goes through my mind — perhaps RW had unintentionally implied some interest/curiosity. Planning a sleep-over two weeks in advance might create that impression for one or more persons who were hoping for that confirmation.
The emotional angle keeps haunting me — why drug and assault someone you have liked and known for a long time? It’s not like this was Looking for Mr Goodbar or some other horrible stereotype — these were people who cared about each other.
How to you truly know these were “people who cared about” one another?
Interesting City Paper story on why the Washington Post Wone story was online-only. I, as a Post subscriber, was also kind of peeved at this. They still don’t fully explain it, but I suspect that the Post brass thought it was a little too ‘sensitive’ for the print edition.
http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/blogs/citydesk/2009/06/05/washington-posts-robert-wone-story-web-experiment/
Could it be that Robert Wone was accidentally killed and the “Swann Street Trio” decided to make it look like he was murdered by an intruder? Perhaps this was sex play that went horribly bad. The recent Carradine death made me think of this possibility. It appears that the actor was engaged in some dangerous sex play called autoerotic asphyxiation. Here’s the description of how it works: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autoerotic_asphyxiation
Perhaps the three guys thought they killed Robert Wone with their sex play and then they stabbed him to make it look like he was killed by an intruder. It would be an incredibly stupid thing to do but it seems plausible.
Keith says: “Perhaps the three guys thought they killed Robert Wone with their sex play”
Robert Wone, by all accounts, was completely heterosexual and was not interested in sex with men. In this case “sex play” would equate to rape. Let’s call a spade a spade.
Besides, he was living when he was stabbed, and he digested his own blood which indicates he died slowly.
I don’t buy the “oops, we killed Robert” theory OR the “sacrificial lamb” theory.
People keep saying Robert Wone wasn’t gay and therefore he couldn’t be a willing participate in risky sexual behaviour. Again, consider the recent case of actor David Carradine. The actor was married five times and has a lot of children by his various marriages but he is believed to have killed himself during an sexual act known as autoerotic asphyxiation.
Robert Wone is different than his friends because he has no known history of risky sexual behaviour but I don’t think it’s something that can be completely ruled out.
And Nancy Kerrigan was an ice skater. Does that make Robert Wone an ice skater? No.
David Carradine. Yes, we got your point, Keith. Doesn’t change my mind though.
But still…..whether Robert went there for consensual sex or not, he left in a body bag. Does consensual sex lessen the fact that he was murdered? No. It doesn’t.
And, as I have stated before, if they had been having fun consensual sex, it makes it less likely that the guys would then get a knife to stab him to death and seemingly not give a hoot (in Ward’s case especially) when the EMTs arrived.
Good point, Nelly. Why
murder Robert if Robert
had been participating
willingly?
Because he was incapacitated and possibly overdosing on drugs they had given him. They either call 911 and end up in jail for drugs and possibly manslaughter or even murder if Robert dies, or they panic and come up with a half-baked plan to save themselves.
And the same scenario can
be used if the sex was NOT
consensual. Robert is not
100% incompacitated….he
wakens enough to object.
The defendants can either
take it like a man and see
what plays out (i.e., does
Robert have them arrested?)
or they can just kill the
witness.
Doesn’t matter why. Motive
means nothing. Robert left
in a body bag. Murder period.
Oh I completely agree; as I said in my earlier post above, whether or not the sex was consensual does not change the bottom line – Robert was tragically murdered. I don’t view him as any less of a victim because I believe the sex was (at least initially) consensual.
That’s what is so fascinating about this case. The possible, the probable, the plausible.
The intruder notion is a null set. All other theories involve those three components to one degree or another.
Yes, to one degree or another….first degree or second degree murder?
I hate to belabor a point . . . but unless you are a trained mental health professional, have extensive training in mental health issues, or can intelligently cite to the DSM-IV-TR or peer reviewed mental health articles, please don’t posit about the mental health problems (real or suspected, including addictions, drug dependencies, and/or paraphelias) of anyone you have never met, evaluated, or reviewed a competent, comprehensive psych eval of.
I realize that in this day of “Dr. Phil” everyone likes to think that they are experts on mental illness, drug abuse, addiction or dependency, and the intersection of all of the above. News flash: watching TV shows and observing the lives of friends or families does not make you anything close to an expert.
Mental illness, including illnesses that are drug or sex related (in the sense of paraphilia), are serious problems that deserve better treatment and consideration than the casual musings of someone interested in the salacious aspects of an horrific incident.
Again, I would ask that those who have something productive to offer (not just musings on what might have occurred) collect objective info, undertake real research, offer valuable expertise, or do anything else that would truly advance the investigation of this case. Please put your money or your efforts where your mouth is. Anything else is really just a form of titillation.
Arm chair psych evals are not productive and often are counter-productive.
Stereotypes relating to mental illness are just as repugnant as those relating to sexuality.
You don’t need to be an “expert” to know that taking psych meds in combination with street drugs can have unintended consequences for anyone. And pondering the human aspects of a tragic death isn’t a form of titillation — it’s trying to deduct what may have happened to an innocent victim.
The case is interesting not because of stereotypes of the people involved, but because what is ostensibly known doesn’t make sense. Logic is hardly the exclusive province of mental health professionals.
Good points Laura. And good points Themis. I enjoy reading both of your posts. I think it is important that we keep an open mind and consider everyone’s suggestions on this site. I would hate to see people turned away because they are worried others would feel they have “nothing productive to offer.” Or that their postings are musings or mere tittilation. We all have different skills and things to contribute. This is a forum for ideas. Let’s not bully people.
And this is not a court room, Themis, so stop the grandstanding. This is a forum for the exchange of ideas.
If this were an actual trial, you’d have a solid point. But…..it’s…..not.
Now let’s not go there.
LOL! Alright all you pots and kettles … stop the name-calling and the fighting!
SKS…that’s why we love you!
Themis, Laura, Kerth, TK, Mike, Mandy, CG, and all: Robert had five needle punctures into his body. What does that suggest to you?
Since from all accounts, RW was not known to be a drug user of any kind — although what is known and what is not knowable here is up for debate — it suggests to me that he was injected with something, probably a paralytic and probably against his will. Possibly after being surprised in half sleep by a pillow held over his face by person A, while quickly stabbed with a hypodermic needle by person B. Presumably person A was the stronger of the two.
But again the unknowable — possibly he was instructed in self injection and willingly went along with the sex/drugs experiment. Seems highly unlikely. From all the testimony at his memorial service, RW just does not appear to be someone with a hidden dark interest in self-injecting anything. His life seems to have been so open, so sunny, so based on dedication to friends family, causes… Just doesn’t make any sense.
But then again, how could a friend of long standing, JP — inject RW against his will? Seems equally unlikely. This was a successful lawyer, maybe with with private sexual proclivities — emphasis on private — who was trying to create a committed family life with his partner and the mother of their children. Just doesn’t make sense that he would attack his old friend in his own home. Why?
It’s possible that either Dylan (or less likely Victor) injected RW — but why do that to someone with clear ties to your home? Someone who will wake up and remember something, if not all the details. If you took that risk at all, wouldn’t it be more likely to be with a stranger from a bar, who could not be linked to you in the event that he/she ultimately objected? What could motivate someone to take such an insane risk?
Yep, it’s looking like the intruder did it after all.
Laura, have you ever used K? Judge, never mind. Strike that point.
It’s not grandstanding to be concerned about uninformed speculation regarding mental illness and psychiatric drugs.
My mother, who suffered from multiple mental illnesses, was eventually involuntarily committed in her early 40’s.
Despite a history of addiction and dependence, a general practitioner later prescribed massive amounts of Xanax for her (which is contraindicated in someone with her history) which led to her going into a coma.
There is still much stigma and misunderstanding that surrounds mental illness. People who actually suffer certain mental illness are often discouraged from talking about their experiences because it makes others uncomfortable, while people with little to no experience are not discouraged from speculating about whether someone is bipolar or suffers from a personality disorder.
In some states, you must report if you have ever been diagnosed as being bipolar on your bar application, provide all of your psychiatric records, and submit to an interview to determine if you are “fit” to practice. So forgive me if I am a bit sensitive about the subject.
Hey Themis. Not sure I should address FOIA here but since I have your attention. I thought the FOIA idea was a great one. I am a lawyer as well but definitely not an expert on FOIA. Although I have taken training on the subject. I seem to remember an exemption that had to do with live criminal investigations. I think it was exemption 7. Maybe 7(a), (b), and/or (e)? I guess it would be a good idea to address these exemptions in any FOIA request that is submitted and argue against them applying. I would be glad to help you in the drafting process. Personally, I would really like to see transcripts/videos of their interrogations. The limited bit i have read about the interviews already sounds fishy. Especially where Joe hazards a guess as to whether the perp’s prints are on the knife and he says no because the individual was likely wearing gloves. Why would an innocent man even hazard a guess? An innocent man would have said I don’t know but I hope they person’s prints are on the knife. Instead he explains away the presence of his own prints. Don’t want to go too much into my background, but I think I could lend a hand on analyzing any documents we received from custodial interviews.
And my aplogies. I didn’t mean to be harsh about the mental health discussion. It is a subject I have very little expertise in. And I find your posts very helpful.
Having been diagnosed as clinically depressed and tried several SSRIs, I can tell you none of them would send you into some kind of altered state where you would stab someone (unless you were already capable of such an act). Drugs like Ambien I can’t comment on.
And as an openly gay man, I can say that there are a lot of ‘straight’ guys out there who are not 100% straight and are interested in experimenting with another guy, especially with a friend they trust, and after they have had the excuse of several beers (personal experience, half a dozen at least; we stayed friends afterward). However, this does not sound like that kind of situation. It sounds like it was forced on Robert, maybe by wishful thinking on Joe’s part, then with Dylan involved it got ugly and finally it turned unspeakably horrible.
The thing I keep sticking on is the disposal of the bloody original bedding *and* all the cleanup stuff *and* the murder weapon. It must have been quite a package — and they had to dispose of it somewhere far enough away that the police searching for it would not find it. They had to get it there, hide it, and then come back — AFTER the cleanup, but BEFORE the 911 call. Another longish process to jam into the tight time frame.
My idea? It amazes me that all of the speculation I’ve read on this site has involved only the set cast of four known characters. My theory: Dylan Ward, knowing for two weeks that Joe’s old friend Wone would be overnighting — and driven by the kind of psychological motives that Laura proposed above — planned to “rig up his ultimate dom show [toward Joe] of humiliating/terrifying Joe’s friend” with the help of one or two kinky outside buddies.
Dylan and his buddie(s) did the whole thing themselves while Victor and Joe were upstairs in bed — but it went way too far. Desperate, they tried to wash away all the evidence they could, including off the body (it would take only one hair for DNA to incriminate someone), and the buddie(s) made off with the whole bundle of incriminating stuff, though the body was too much for them to carry too. Or perhaps Joe and Victor came downstairs onto the scene before the outsider(s) could come back inside for the body after stashing the bundle in their car out back; at that point they just took off.
Dylan told Joe and Victor that his friends and he thought they’d play this little joke, but the evil friends took it way too far — and now the friends are gone, and we’re left with a murder in our house that’ll surely be blamed on us weirdos unless we get our stories straight *right now.* Remember, Dylan’s a dom, he’s good at dominating people — especially his own sub of three years, plus the apparently weak-willed Victor.
And this forms the basis of their intruder story. To them the story seemed a lot more plausible than it does to us now — and easiest to stick to — because it was built on a big element of truth: there really were other people in the house who did part of the crime, and fled.
Amid their panic and hysteria, one or more of the housemates bloodied and planted the fake murder weapon from a guilty knowledge that Dylan had disposed of the real murder weapon, and someone got the panicky notion that this would look bad and a weapon ought to be on the scene.
So Victor’s crying and hysteria on the phone were real, even while the lines he was delivering were set pieces.
OK folks. . . pick it apart?
AFPS says: “The thing I keep sticking on is the disposal of the bloody original bedding …”
That’s if they stabbed him on the bed, which, I believe they didn’t. They returned him to the bed after being stabbed, possibly in the shower. Or stabbed elsewhere and being placed in the shower to bleed out. The blood on the bedding is the little bit of blood that came out immediately prior to Robert’s death. Which would have been very little because his blood pressure and heart rate were dropping dramatically prior to death, which is what causes the blood to come out.)
Re forensic evidence and the bedding, I posted a few weeks ago and wonder whether the MPD/FBI did forensic testing on the bedding. An assailant is likely to have shed (hair) on the bed. (Of course, it’s likely that the hair of the three defendants could have been on the bedding…it’s their bedding, but not likely for bedding to have been on Robert’s skin, if he had taken a shower prior to retiring to bed. The defendants would have had to have physical contact with Robert’s body AFTER he was possibly showered. Hair could have settled on Robert body prior to him being redressed and returned to the bed.)
my question is: if robert was washed in the shower to clean off all the blood, wouldn’t that also clean off all of the semen too? (except for the semen that was found internally.) or am i not getting something?
Obviously they didn’t do a good enough job of scrubbing everything off. And some substances are stickier than others.
Plus there are nooks and crannies, substances can get in, under, between.
Besides, a forensic examination can find things people don’t even realize are there.
Wow, I was away from the internet for a few days and so much happened here! I just got caught up.
AFPS: I also believe there were other people there which is why things got cleaned up so quickly and disposed of.
My other theory:
I think that Dylan (the 3rd wheel, and maybe jealous of the friendship Joe and Robert have) might have wanted to showoff a little in front of Robert ( to show that Dylan and Joe have an intimate relationship) and planned to have a session w/ Joe in Dylan’s room that would have been heard in the guest room where Robert was staying. Joe may have said no, not tonight while Robert’s here, enraging Dylan, who then took it out on Robert.
Victor did say to police that they were working on making Dylan an equal member of the family, or something to that effect. To me, that implies that there had been discussions between the 3 that Dylan was not being treated as an equal member, which may have frustrated him. To then see Robert be given attention may have set Dylan off.
Another point:
Something I read in the WP article has been sticking in my head for the last 2 days: “Joe Price was an Eagle Scout”.
Eagle Scouts are trained in first aid and emergency response. Joe would have already known to apply pressure to the wound (which he didn’t) and would also know not to remove the knife (which he claims to have done). If he had truly come upon Robert as he claims, why didn’t he spring into action?
Blonde says: “Eagle Scouts are trained in first aid and emergency response.”
Spot on, Blonde.
Joe would also have known NOT to pull the knife out of the wound, if trained in first aid. He claimed he pulled the knife out in certain documents.
Sounds so heroic to rush in and pull the knife out of your injured friend. Sounds so Joe to me.
Blonde, just reread your post. I didn’t see that you said the same thing….not to pull the knife out. Exactly. Absolutely.
To me, this lends to the fact that Robert had not been bleeding (very much) on the bed. If Joe had pulled the knife out, Robert would have probably had a rush of blood to release from the wound. The knife itself was stanching the wound.
To me…..stabbed elsewhere (and in the very least bled out in te shower), and placed on the bed. The murder weapon was never in the room. A substitute weapon was wiped with blood and placed on the nightstand.
The knife found at the scene could not have been inside Robert at any time. The knife only had blood on one side which was impossible. It is my understanding that the knife was found on Robert’s stomach and Joe took it off and put it on the nightstand.
Well, that’s what Joe said, but he also allegedly told others that he pulled the knife out of Robert’s chest. What’s the truth?
In addition, the length of the knife did not correspond to the depth of the wounds. The knife was too long. There was blood all the way up to the shank of the knife…next to the handle. Which means the knife at the scene, would have had to have been plunged up to the shank to get blood there. The wounds were not deep enough for this to have been the knife.
I think that Robert did NOT agree to be “shot up” with paralytics (even if he thought it was something else) because of the number and locations of the puncture wounds: “multiple needle puncture marks on the left side of his neck, three needle puncture marks present in the center of his chest, two needle punctures to the upper portion of his right foot, and on needle puncture mark on the back of his left hand”. Sound like a needle-puncturing-frenzy. And that perhaps the one wielding the syringe just kept trying to “get enough in him” to accomplish whatever the goal was. It doesn’t sound like a “hey, please get me high/paralyzed” kind of pattern.
Some of the newer folks to the site (AND WELCOME!) haven’t rehashed much of this with the rest of us, and the ‘fresh eyes’ are a good thing.
But I do have some random thoughts about what’s been added. I’ve had straight women friends with whom I’ve commenced sexual activity, had straight women friends who wanted to but whom I refused because I wasn’t attracted to them (or the drama attached to it); more often I’ve had straight women friends with whom there’s been nothing but a platonic relationship, and too, I’ve hosted many parties for them. That line of thinking seems to have slipped off the realm of relevancy.
Street drugs and prescription drugs, while they can cause problems, are often “understood” issues which are addressed by drug users. Often they know what they’re doing. I am somewhat curious that Dylan may have been playing with his Ambien, and the “what happens” if he stays awake, but my gut is to agree that his claim of taking a sleeping pill is meant to absolve him of having been able to hear anything.
As CD knows, I struggle with this being a premeditated assault, rape and murder. Possibly some part of it – Dylan “thought” he could seduce Robert (or Joe and Dylan “thought so”) but when it didn’t work out, grew angry and lost control (drug and ego combination). They stuck him a number of times, and after they realized (drugs/ego waned) they made the decision to murder him rather than lose their careers and freedom to the sexual assault, kidnapping, etc. If Robert HAD been a willing participant yet died from an overdose (rather that they THOUGHT he died from an overdose), they would not have thought to have stabbed him to death. No, he was alive and they knew it is my guess. And the stabbing was cold-blooded murder because one or more sexually assaulted and tortured him (I think if one is incapacitated but “feels” his friends making him ejaculate, do things TO him for their enjoyment and his humiliation, that is torture).
As for it being Dylan and evil buddies, I don’t really think so – I think Super Joe and Victor would have thrown them all under the bus by now – or fingered the evil buddies and saved Dylan. No, when the decision was made to murder him, then clean up with the plan of moving him, then have to change that plan (for previously stated theories), Joe stepped in with his theory that so long as they maintain one-for-all-and-all-for-one that they won’t be convicted (at least not of murder).
Joe had to be involved in order for Victor to “cover” for him – that’s my opinion. And I still think he knew next to nothing when he called 911 (and possibly his insistence that 911 be called was the trigger for the change in plans).
Like CD, I think Robert was stabbed in the shower. Too much work to get him down to the back drain, and too much exposure. I hope, too, that Metro PD did a LOT of evidence-pulling from Sarah Morgan’s apartment. I REALLY hope that “Tom and John” with whom she spent the night come forward and say that that’s a lie (I think it is). I’m not saying she was involved in the assault or murder, but I do think she assisted in hauling away the stuff JUST after Victor picked up the phone. That was likely pre-planned, to say that she’d spent the night elsewhere so to remove thoughts that she was the transport. The trio talks of her as “a tenant” to suggest that there is an arms-length relationship not likely to get her involved in being investigated, but from what’s been said, that wasn’t the case.
Sorry for the rambling.
Bea,
I agree with you that there are major problems with the idea that this entire event (from sexual assault to murder) was premeditated. But I take a different point of view about the needle marks. To me, they don’t indicate a frenzy at all, but rather a precision that only would have been possible if 1) Robert was a willing participant, or 2) he was already incapacitated (which would indicate premeditation, and which would seem unlikely.)
Imagine trying to hold someone down on a bed, who would presumably be struggling, and injecting them with a needle. I think the marks would have been far more random and haphazard and possibly jagged, and the body would have shown signs of struggle.
I think one important factor here is TRUST. I can only speak for msyelf, but I would imagine its true for many here – – I have done some things under the persuasion of friends/family that I trust that I regret. Robert might not have known what they were injecting into him. They might have said, “don’t worry, you’ll enjoy this, just relax,” etc…
Again, the problem for me with sexual assault theory is – – why? These men were cold-blooded enough and “rational” enough to quickly come up with a coverup to save their skin – – why would they put themselves in a precarious situation to begin with, especially when the person in question is a friend that is known to be staying the night with them? They presumably have sex with people online, why risk everything on one night of fun with someone who isn’t willing when there are plenty of willing participants a few mouse clicks away?
I disagree with the idea that they would not have stabbed him had Robert been a willing participant. In my opinion, they stabbed him while Robert was still alive and incapacitated by the drug to save themselves from drug charges, possibly assault if Robert didn’t know what drugs they were injecting him with, and potentially manslaughter or murder charges if Robert ended up dying.
Another problem with the idea of consensual sex v. assualt is that consensual sex moves the timeline up much earlier and allows more time for the frantic clean-up, formulating and changing stories, removal of certain items (drugs, needles, the knife, possibly some bloody towels)etc.
I agree with the notion that Robert was probably stabbed in the shower. They may have brought him under running water in hopes of reviving him once the drugs overwhelmed him. (I assume the sexual and drug activity took place in Ward’s bedroom, if indeed it was consensual. If it was an assault, it would likely have happened in Robert’s guest room.) They would have been smart enough to realize that a coroner would have been able to tell if he was stabbed after he had already died, so they had a choice. 1) hope he comes to on his own and they get out of this mess; 2) call 911 and their careers and probably their freedom are over, and 3) stab him while he is still alive because, if they wait and Robert dies, their idea of blaming an intruder would be impossible to pull off. The only way to try and pass it off as an intruder would have been to stab him while he was still alive. At some point this is obviously the choice they made.
I also agree there was nobody else involved. That would indicate premeditation, which seems highly unlikely based on the evidence.
The fact that the cadaver dogs pointed towards the lint receptacle in the dryer is a key point, in my opinion. Obviously they put some item in the dryer that was covered in blood, but why? If they had merely rinsed the item off (either outside, or in the shower) it would still be bloodstained – what point in drying it? Unless they actually went through and washed something in the machine, but that seems unlikely… To me this indicates a changing cover-up story. My guess is that initially they were going to get rid of the body and all of the evidence and pretend Robert had never arrived, but at some point decided that would not work, so they came up with plan b: the intruder. After all, if there was an intruder, why clean up anything in Robert’s bedroom? I suspect there wasn’t anything TO clean up in Robert’s bedroom, because 1) the consensual sex took place in Ward’s bedroom (that’s where all the materials are, after all), 2) he was stabbed in the shower, and 3) he was only taken back to the guest room after he was stabbed. Perhaps the first time Robert was brought into the guestroom, he was already dead (which would help explain the relatively pristine condition of the bed and bedding.)
A couple questions I wonder about…
How thoroughly did the forensics team review Ward’s bedroom. Did they search for blood/fluids there? If there was consensual sex, it would have taken place there most likely.
How thoroughly did the police search the surrounding neighborhood for evidence after the crime was discovered? Obviously some evidence was disposed of, and there wouldn’t have been time for the person to have gone far. Were dumpsters, etc.. in the area searched?
one thing no one ever mentions is that Robert was a small man. He was 5’4″….160 lbs (or something like that). It wouldn’t have been difficult for one man, let alone 2 men, to subdue him physically.
CG, you say “Imagine trying to hold someone down on a bed, who would presumably be struggling.” This wouldn’t have been difficult, given Robert’s size.
Also, you ask ” why would they put themselves in a precarious situation to begin with”? Rape and murder happen every day of every week of the year.
CG also says: “The fact that the cadaver dogs pointed towards the lint receptacle in the dryer is a key point, in my opinion. Obviously they put some item in the dryer that was covered in blood…”
I have always believed that the lint trap evidence isn’t very reliable. Joe and Dylan participated in S&M on a regular basis….the blood evidence could very well belong to Joe. Not to mention there was a female living in the house. She could have wash and dried something in that dryer after having a monthly cycle. And besides, without having DNA to prove Robert’s blood was in the lint trap, it’s useless.
You may very well be right, that’s a good point. But either way, there was obviously some sort of clean-up and disposal of evidence.
Oh, absolutely. The Merry Maids, they are.
Rape and murder take place every day, sure. And it’s certainly possible sexual assault took place. But the more logical scenario, in my opinion, is consensual sex.
Given how frantic and calculated the defendants were in the cover-up, self-preservation seems to be their prime motivating factor – – so much so that not only did they fail to call paramedics when Robert was incapacitated by the drugs they gave him, they actually intentionally stabbed and murdered him to save their own skin.
The risk of a sexual assault would have been very evident to any of them, even in the heat of the moment. What were they going to do when Robert recovered? Deny his word? Hope he doesn’t talk? Or did they plan to kill him from the moment that the sexual assault started? A man who was, by all accounts, their close friend? They’d be so cavalier about their future that they’d risk throwing it all away by assaulting a friend and jabbing him full of drugs, but then suddenly be so concerned that they attempt an elaborate cover-up?
To me it just doesn’t make logical sense. There are 2 leaps to look at. 1 – the leap of a generally heterosexual man deciding either in advance or on the spur of the moment to “experiment” with gay friends that he knows well and trusts; 2 – the leap of one or more person (who, as far as we know, has never been involved in assaulting someone against his will) assaulting a close friend and guest – with no apparent worry about the consequence (and then suddenly later being VERY concerned about the consequence, a complete about-face) – and holding him down and injecting him with drugs. I believe Mr. Wone was accidentally incapacitated by drugs during the course of a consensual sexual encounter, which led them to kill him so that a cover-up could be attempted.
As for Robert’s size, I still think it would be hard to execute those injections. Picture 2 men – one perhaps holding a pillow over the victim’s face, and the other holding his feet – with the victim presumably squirming, struggling on the bed – trying to inject him. With what free hand? And how could it have been done so accurately and precisely? I don’t think it would have been easy at all to make those injections on a struggling person, no matter their size.
But what does it really matter whether it was consensual or not?
Robert Wone was STILL murdered. Whether he was a willing participant or not.
Does this make the defendants less guilty? No. No. No.
Of course not. Consenting to sex does not equate to consenting to being stabbed 3 times. I’m merely discussing the evidence (that we know about) and giving my opinion. I wouldn’t judge Robert one iota if the sex was consensual. Glass houses, stones, and all that…..
Understood, CG. It’s definitely great to have fresh eyes, as Bea
said.
Back to consensual/
nonconsensual, I guess I
give very little weight to that,
as it doesn’t change the
outcome at all.
I’m just not one of the “oops we killed Robert” believers.
I believe it more to be “uh oh, he woke up…now we have to kill him” which is premeditated murder.
Drug, paralyze, rape, robert recognizes what’s happening, murder.
I don’t think the killing was accidental, or an “oops we killed Robert” scenario. I believe the drug incapacitation was accidental, and the killing took place as an attempt to save their skins.
Definitely not 160. Ward, according to the arrest affidavit, was 5’8 and 130 lbs. I’d guess that Robert Wone was no more than 120-125lbs.
Definitely a small framed man. And certainly small enough for one person, if not two, to subdue without a problem.
“They presumably have sex with people online, why risk everything on one night of fun with someone who isn’t willing when there are plenty of willing participants a few mouse clicks away?”
Sexual assault is not about sex, it is about power and violence, that’s why. I thought everyone knew this.
Sexual assaults against women and girls are so common (as I have said before, and I am sorry if this is annoying in repetition) that they aren’t even the stuff of news articles anymore. Sexual assaults against women that involve incapacitating drugs are also so common that in the scheme of crime statistics they are almost mundane. Sexual assaults against any persons (women, girls, young boys and men) that escalate into murder aren’t even that statistically anomalous. It is also astonishing the range of social classes where this type of assault is known to take place. It is not crazed street criminals attacking strangers (those do make the papers in part because they are such anomalies) but people who know each other that are overwhelmingly those who become perpetrator and victim in a sexual assault scenario. In addition, the vast majority of these types of crimes involve drug and alcohol abuse.
Why to people keep expressing amazement about this?
AZ, I agree with what you say except that if this was premeditated, they would not have picked this particular victim. Joe is not an idiot, would have known that Robert would be likely to press rape/assault charges – unless you think he intended to murder Robert from the outset. So unless you think they came upon this plan after getting high (to the point that they lose all sense of reality) once/shortly before/after Robert arrived, I don’t see it. Just my opinion, of course.
I see it more as Joe/Dylan getting high and then when Robert arrives, one/both come on to him. When he says no, he/they push and Robert is injected with K. Whether they thought he was dead, or whether they decided to stab him because he’d press charges, I don’t know, but either way, he/they are narcissistic and/or sadistic run-of-the-mill rapists and killers.
2nd paragraph…..agree 100%.
I know what you mean Bea. I didn’t mean to say that this crime was necessarily premeditated, but that someone in that house (or more than one someone) had a predisposition to sexual violence; perhaps unleashed by drug and alcohol abuse.
I think Robert laughed at them and that caused them to decide that he needed to be taught a lesson.
Could be, AZ. That might set them off.
Welcome back, Bea!
You know, Tom and John are not exactly strangers to Sarah’s housemates. Joe, Victor, Dylan, Sarah, Tom, John and a few others periodically traveled together on vacation. One year before the murder, they all spent a long vacation together in a rented villa in Italy.
Hey SheKnows!
So is it likely Sarah would have, on a school night, made plans to stay with Tom and John? I find that odd for an adult woman, especially mid-week, unless they had late concert plans, etc. And would Tom and John have backed Sarah up if she were asked to lie by the Trio (as in disposing of evidence and then pretend to have never been there)?
SKS, do you know where Tom and John live?
Personally, I find it very odd that Sarah supposedly stay out that night. Especially, if T&J live in Dupont Circle.
If you live in Dupont Circle, you pretty much “party” in Dupont Circle. Unless you wnat to do some serious dancing at a serious nightclub (big, loud, lots of lights and people) you go across town.
What did she supposedly do that night that crashing at T&J’s would have been easier (on a school night) than going home?
What i find more odd is that Joe/Victor said they thought it was Sarah coming home (chime) when Sarah had told them she would be out. And didn’t react to this.
If I had a roommate and they said they weren’t coming home and I heard the door open, I’d be down there with a baseball bat.
Totally within the realm of possibility that Sarah would have spent a night away from home midweek with Tom and John. That is her home away from home.
Sarah was a bit of a party-girl. Is that right SKS?
What do you mean, party-girl?
Going out a lot. clubbing?
What was her social life like?
Did/does she go to gay clubs with the boys a lot? Drugs? Drinking?
I don’t know…you tell me.
That does not describe Sarah at all.
Something that occurred to me recently is the possibility that the defendants tried to suffocate Robert BEFORE he was stabbed.
There is the finding on the autopsy report regarding the broken blood vessels in his eyes that is consistent with suffocation.
Perhaps Joe and/or Dylan originally attempted to suffocate Robert, and finding it very difficult to kill him in this way, stabbed him instead.
Remember the stab wounds are all very consistent…angle and depth….as if ritualistic. Certainly not irregular, as typical stab wounds are.
If this is the case, this would have given the defendants a moment to think the stabbing through……”this isn’t working….let’s take him into the shower and…..”.
Just a thought. Doesn’t change anything, but give some credence to the evidence of suffocation and perhaps how Robert could have been stabbed in the shower.
I am here as a result of the WashPost articles and the subsequent online chat with the author of that series. I am fascinated by this case (hopefully in a respectful way, not a sensational one) and am very hopeful that justice will one day be served. I don’t have theories of my own to offer that haven’t already been explored in some regard here, nor do I have legal or other expertise to bring to bear. I simply want to tell all of you here, regular posters and editors alike, that I feel you are performing a valuable service to the public and to Robert’s family and that I think it is important to keep this story alive, keep thinking about it, keep posting about it until it is resolved. The mostly civil and highly intelligent discourse here is refreshing. I am following all of it and just wanted to say I appreciate your efforts. Thank you.
They did it; case closed.
Hello, sleuths. I have never posted before, although I am not a newcomer to the site. I have followed this case since the murder, and I have read this blog daily since its inception, lurking on the sidelines. This outstanding site, plus the recent Post articles, is finally bringing some much-needed attention to this mystery.
By way of introduction, I am a gay man who attended W&M at the same time that Robert Wone and Joe Price did. I have met both of them during our college days, although it would be a definite exaggeration to say that I knew them. I left Virginia and the East Coast after finishing grad school, and therefore I have not been in the same DC social circle as the three defendants. Additionally, I was also the victim of a violent sexual assault and stabbing–by a masked intruder no less!–six years ago. In my case, the intruder was never identified and he walks free, I assume, to this day. I made a full recovery, and count myself lucky indeed when I think of Robert.
It is for the above reasons that I am so interested in Robert’s murder, and I want nothing more than to see the truth come out and the guilty punished.
OK, enough about me. The editors and contributors have done excellent work advancing a number of possible theories as to what happened that night. I have little to add to those, but by way of full disclosure, I’ll state that I believe that Robert’s involvement was completely non-consensual, that Dylan acted initially independently for the emotional and drug-related reasons others have stated above, then enlisted Joe (either to join in the “fun” or for help when things went bad). Victor was not initially involved, in my opinion, until after the murder was done, and is likely responsible (as others have postulated) for “wrecking” the plan and causing Joe to come up with the intruder story. None of this is new to anyone on this site.
What I’d like to see further explored/discussed, and what I do not recall ever previously brought up in depth, is the factors that motivate Victor to continue to participate in this plan.
It seems that most people, upon discovering that their life partner has been involved in a sexual assault and murder (even an accidental murder, perhaps), would see this person in a new light and perhaps want to begin to distance themselves from him. I am in an eight-year relationship (would love to be married) and completely love and trust my partner. But if something like this happened in my home, over time I think my lingering and growing doubts would cause me to break off the relationship.
Sure, Victor’s love and devotion for Joe might have clouded his initial judgement and led him to believe in Joe and Dylan’s innocence. But he has had three long years to think this over–if Victor truly had nothing to do with the assault and murder, why has he not agreed to testify against the other two and allow the truth to come out? If he did so, it would relieve himself of carrying this burden, and allow Kathy Wone and the rest of Robert’s family some measure of peace in knowing the truth.
The fact that Victor continues to back the other two defendants suggests either (1) his involvement in the murder may be greater than I and others suggest above; or (2) he is so invested emotionally with Joe that he is willing to overlook great evidence that Joe was involved in a heinous criminal act; or lastly (3) that Victor may actually be afraid of Joe himself, realizing that Joe might be capable of hurting him as well should he testify against him. Victor may be worried that even with his testimony against him, Joe may get a light sentence, and Victor could become a future victim.
This last point, I think, is interesting. Would Victor shed some new light on this case by changing his testimony if prosecutors offered him some protection from the other two (for example, guarantees of a suspended sentence, etc, along with some sort of witness protection and the right to somehow be able to continue seeing his children)? I am no lawyer, but it seems to me the prosecution may be missing an opportunity if they are not reaching out independently to Victor’s attorneys and inquiring about such a deal.
I am interested to hear from those who may be familiar with the dynamics of Joe and Victor’s relationship. Did Joe seem to be dominant over Victor? Was there any hint of domestic violence? Let me know what the rest of you think….
I think the time will come when Victor will have a real decision in front of him; love and loyalty is one thing, hard jail time is quite another. The trial on obstruction is a year away and no murder charges have been filed, so Victor has little motivation to say anything now. But if ultimately presented with the prospect of spending time in prison when he could potentially make a deal? Who knows what he will do.
(This is all assuming, of course, that he wasn’t directly involved with Mr. Wone’s death and perhaps only aided in the attempted cover-up.)
Victor still faces a lengthy jail sentence for the 3 non-murder charges. He has plenty of reason to sing like a bird. No need to wait. The maximum prison term for obstruction of justice is 30 years.
Welcome, WH. First, let me say I am so sorry to hear about the assault on you, and am glad you are fully recovered. I suffered a similar, although not nearly as severe, assault myself; the trauma cannot be overemphasized.
Regarding Victor’s behavior, IIRC quite a while back there were some excellent posts on this subject (sorry I can’t recall the thread; others might). One comment that stands out to me, however, was that a regular poster saw Victor with Joe, post-murder, and reported that Victor seemed to be trying to get and/or keep Joe’s attention. No idea about actual domestic violence.
I agree that the prosecution would be smart to explore offering protection to Victor.
Welcome, WH.
I agree with you and others that it would be great if Victor were to reconsider. Like CD, I suspect that we may have to wait until closer to trial for this to occur. We’ve talked on this site about Victor’s attorney having given some indication that Victor should not be ‘lumped in’ with the other defendants. Perhaps it is wishful thinking, but I am guessing that Victor WILL talk before all is said and done. As for ‘why’ he wouldn’t have done so by now, to answer your question, my guess is that he was initially snowed by Joe and his stories, but as his realizations came into focus, he was still blinded by love and devotion (“Joe had such a terrible childhood; Joe was only trying to cover for Dylan; Joe had no idea at first. . .”) and I think Joe STILL has Victor bamboozled about the legalities of things, such as that Joe “would never” let Victor go to jail – that if they all work together that no one will, but if worse comes to worse, Joe will step in, tell them all that Victor is not guilty, and save the day in a Super-Joe way.
I do think it’s interesting, having known Robert and Joe years ago that you (1) don’t think Robert was consenting and (2) that Joe might be capable of such a thing – not that you said it in those words. I think back to college friends I lost touch with and I can put myself in your shoes and see some people of NOT being capable of such things, but a few, well, I suppose I wouldn’t rule it out.
Bea, from a legal standpoint, do you think it’s better for a defendant to wait it out? See what the prosecution has to offer first? Or do you think coming forward with what you know looks better than waiting?
My HOPE is that Victor’s attorney has already had a number of conversations with the DA. From a legal standpoint for VICTOR and not the TRIO, it’s best for Victor to cut a deal as early as possible. The problem is that if Victor cooperates, then he’ll understand that “conspiracy” would likely then become “murder” charges. That’s got to be a heart-breaker for him and, to me, a focal point of why he’s hesitant to do so. Keep quiet: the love of his life MIGHT do time for conspiracy; cooperate: the love of his life is pretty much a slam dunk for murder (presuming, of course, that Joe participated in the stabbing). I can empathize with that, though surely he has to come down on the side of ‘morally correct’ (or so I hope).
This leads to a second thought: if Dylan was truly the only one to do the murder, then Victor would not be in such a pickle. Yeah, it would hurt to send one’s “friend” down the river, but not nearly so much as to know that your life partner was doing murder time because you cooperated (really, of course, he’d be doing murder time because he MURDERED, but that’s not what Joe is whispering in Victor’s ear). More grist for the mill of “Joe did it”.
> …and I think Joe STILL has Victor
> bamboozled about the legalities of
> things,
Perhaps less so now if Victor has read the Post article and maybe this and other blogs.
I’m far away. You folks in the DC area: how big a deal was the Post story locally? I’m imagining that now none of the three will be able to walk down the street without people staring and edging away. To what degree are they getting trapped in Victor’s aunt’s house with nothing to do but look at the computer?
The Knife – Why leave a knife at all? It is obviously not the knife used to kill Robert. And it is also obvious that someone removed the knife, bloody towels, etc. from the house. The fact that the knife was not used to actually stab Robert and had blood *wiped* on the wrong side of the blade is baffling.
The Blood – We can keep trying to figure out how/where the blood was washed off but I keep thinking about the T-Shirt and the lack of blood on it. The only way I can think of that someone could be stabbed *through* the t-shirt with little blood is if Robert was already dead. If Robert was already dead the blood would not flow so freely. But in an earlier post it was implied that Robert swallowed blood. If that is the case, how come there is hardly any blood on the shirt? I know about the lint in the dryer but seriously, they stripped Robert, washed and dried his clothes, redressed him after he was dead then called 911? We already have a very tiny timeline here, we really can’t be adding more things to be done. And really, an “intruder” that washes and dries the clothes and redresses him…ha! (never did buy the intruder story)
The Drugs – I am partial to thinking Robert was drugged through the drinking water and that is how this whole thing started. It might even make sense to me that they shot him with drugs afterwards. Buy why 6 puncture marks?
and last…
The Semen – If Robert was cleaned off, why did they find any semen at all on his genitals? I can understand the rectum, but I can’t understand it on the outside of his body. Seems they REALLY cleaned him, in fact, too well!
I know I am asking some of the same questions over again, but what I am trying to do is not speculate and instead try to think how any of this can be proven in court. I am sure the “how this whole thing started” will come out in court, but that will ALL be speculation…how do we help find the facts based on the actual evidence? Themis – what would you do with this evidence? All of you are so brilliant! Keep up the great work!!
LAD says: The only way I can think of that someone could be stabbed *through* the t-shirt with little blood is if Robert was already dead. If Robert was already dead the blood would not flow so freely. But in an earlier post it was implied that Robert swallowed blood.”
Actually, Robert DIGESTED his blood. Which means Robert was living long enough for this to happen. Digesting blood doesn’t necessarily mean you swallow it. He had a stab wound in the abdomen which caused blood to enter his digestive system.
Re washing Robert off…..doesn’t mean they “scrubed” him off….they may have just rinsed his body off….creases, fold, etc may not get completely cleaned off.
also, re the lint trap….I mentioned this yesterday….I don’t think the blood in the lint trap was necessarily Robert’s.
The defendants may have washed something of their own that had blood on it (they were into S&M, you know), and there was a female housemate (perhaps she washed and dried something after having a monthly cycle).
CD – thank you. You are right!
What about the lack of blood on the t-shirt though…any thoughts?
Perhaps they redressed him after he was stabbed and made corresponding cuts in the shirt. The small amount of blood on his shirt may simply be from moving him or a faux attempt at stanching.
I don’t have time for a lengthy post at present. But for those with access to a good library or $180, I highly recommend Spitz’s Medicolegal Investigation of Death, especially Chapters III and XI. Some noteworthy info from Chapter III includes the fact that rigor mortis may cause the release of small amounts of seminal flood (not that that explains blood found in interior body cavities) and that during the perior of flaccidity that precedes rigor the contents of the stomach can flow into the duodenum and vice versa.
I think that the defense will do their best to undermine the autopsy and the observations of the first responders.
Does anyone know how long after death the autopsy was conducted? The full autopsy is much more detailed, and hence helpful, than a summary. I’m not sure if a FOIA request would be successful in obtaining a copy of the full autopsy, but it nothing ventured, nothing gained.
Themis, the FOIA is a great idea. One we’re working on. Thanks as always.
– Doug, co-editor
Forensic Pathology: Principals and Practice is another good reference.
Thanks for your thoughts everyone. Bea, don’t read too much into my opinions, since I can’t really say that I *knew* Robert and Joe, only that I have met them both. Joe was a well-known figure (being student assembly president) and Robert was good friends with Jason Torchinski (see the eulogy post), whom I knew from an organization we were both involved with. It was a “say hello in passing” kind of acquaintanceship.
So my speculation that Robert’s involvement was non-consensual comes from what others have said about him, not my personal observations. Regarding what Joe is or is not capable of, I couldn’t say either. I’m just looking at the facts of the case and making my best guess.
Regarding stereotyping by police (I’m referring to how the police assumed immediately that there must be an ulterior motive for Robert to stay in the home of three gay men), I have also seen similar stereotyping (by the Seattle police) in the case of my own assault and stabbing incident. When the police arrived and learned that I was gay, they assumed immediately that my attacker was a hook-up or trick that I had invited into my home, rather than an intruder. They lost valuable time in pursuing the intruder because they kept questioning me about who I had “had over”, even though I kept denying having anyone over. By the time they believed me (the next day after surgery to repair my liver), my attacker was long gone.
It seems like such stereotyping by police against our community is still pervasive, despite the addition of GLBT liaison units to many big-city police forces.
By the way, the fact that random intruders do sometimes assault and stab people (as happened to me) does not convince even me that that is what happened to Robert.
I hope that those of you who state that Victor will eventually talk are correct. I hope prosecutors offer him the incentives to do so, and soon.
Thanks, WH. So sorry you had to go through that. It does seem clear that the cops here were homophobic in assuming that three gay guys couldn’t leave a straight guy “alone”. Such nonsense on the face of it – and truly and disturbingly awful for Mr. Wone, his family, and the gay community as a whole, if this myth gets new-found fuel should the truth come out that one or more of the Swann residents actually did assault and then kill their straight (or any) friend. Like you, I’ve had wrongful assumptions made of me because I was a lesbian (none so immediately damaging as yours) and it truly galls me. And so too does it gall me that these “poster boys” for the gay community will set us all back after the likes of Bill O’Reilly gets their hands on it. My first sense of outrage goes to Robert, of course, and his family, but one piece (of many) of collateral damage will be to the gay community.
The GLBT community is still a marginal group. Unfortunately.
Bea, thanks for your eloquent expression of one of my great fears about this case. We all want justice served, and that will require attention to the case from the police, the legal guys, and the media/public (to motivate the first two groups). Unfortunately the trade-off for the attention is the spotlight on this trio as representatives of our community. There is little we can do about it, other than simply doing what we are doing: living our own lives as examples to others, and welcoming and supporting everyone in our community (including those at the “fringes”), while repudiating those who commit crimes against others–and trying our best to bring them to justice.
Hi, I’m a newbie on this site and been digging around here for the past few days, after Paul Duggan’s WP article got me digging the Web. I read about the case on and off since the murder occurred, but to Duggan’s and WP’s credit, the article got me hooked.
Some of my thoughts:
– Given what we publicly know, we simply can’t apply ‘a logical person wouldn’t do this’ reasoning to this case. Even though Price and Zaborsky have (had) established lives and rising careers, what Bea brought up regarding drug influence made a lot of sense and it would be the only fitting explaining for the stabbing. The sexual encounter/assault – be it consensual or not, whether it had gone wrong or not – would NOT lead to stabbing if it weren’t for one or more of the dominant participants being under the influence of drug(s). The person(s) under the drug influence had no stopping point.
– During WP online chat with Duggan, a poster brought up an intriguing possibility of a conspiracy, which, according to him, was similar to a movie he watched a long time (“Mandarin Express” or something like that). In that movie, every participant stabbed the victim, so that each would be bound to keep the secret to save himself. The only movie bearing that similar name I could find is “Murder on the Orient Express” based on Agatha Christie’s novel, and it’s not the same story line that the WP poster said. It’s a far-fetched theory to be applied here, but intriguing nonetheless.
– It’s important to note that the defendants’ story of what happened that night is just that, a story that they may or may not made up. If we don’t believe the defendants’ intruder story, then, in my view, very little of everything else that the defendants said happened that night is plausible: Wone didn’t have a glass of water with Price and Ward in the kitchen; Ward didn’t see a spider in the patio; there was no grunts (except for the scream that the neighbor heard); Wone didn’t shower or prepared for bed as Ward was reading after he took sleeping pills; Price and Zaborsky weren’t in their bed. However, per Duggan’s article, despite being interrogated separately, the trio’s stories had consistency and didn’t starkly conflict each other. This was an interesting fact. Either the trio had time to rehearse the storyline together (while doing the cleanup), or they were really good at being interrogated for hours after very little rehearsal. The MPD must have asked them some curveball questions, something like, “You heard the alarm chime once. Was that when the intruder went in or ran out?” If Zaborsky had very little to do with the murder (but a lot more with the obstruction or accessory after the fact), then he would have known little and his story of the screams, the waking up, could become inconsistent after many hours of interrogation — but if he was indeed went the sleep early, then he knew little and therefore could make up little, saving him from making up conflicting stories.
– Do these people really go to bed at 10:30 PM? C’mon, I’m married with two kids (who must be helped to get ready for school early in the morning), and I can easily burn the midnight oil, either surfing, working or spending time with my wife like watching movies, sex, etc. Going to bed around 12:30 AM on work/school night is often the earliest time for us, who are a relatively simple, non-party-going couple.
– This was one of the rare time (sadly, last time) Wone was away for the night from his wife, yet after the phone call that he made while walking (can’t remember to or from where), he did not make another call to his wife either before he took a shower or getting ready to bed or when he was on the bed about to sleep. This is odd. They would seem to be a couple who would check with each other often, and on a night like this after a long day and about to spend the night away from his wife, I think Wone would be even more wanting to talk to her and hear her voice, especially with everyone else in the house already retiring to their quarters. But Wone didn’t make the call (second call of that night), which to me is a strong indication that the events did not unfold the way the defendants said they did: either they stayed up later together (but again, I think Wone would’ve excused himself briefly to call his wife), or he was assaulted earlier then the timeline of his showering/retiring to bed as told by the defendants. Wone would have plenty of opportunity to call his wife after his arrival on Swann St, but he never did.
Hi Lost, first – welcome! You have good instincts on what works for you or not. I personally don’t think they each did a “stab” but who knows? Everything is possible.
It was stated that Robert called his wife to say goodnight after the legal lecture, and maybe she’s an early-to-bed sort, but generally I think you might be right that he’d call again for the final ‘love you’ before hitting the pillow. The “unsent” email to her at 11:05 makes no sense – specifically that he didn’t SEND it. No one saves those things in ‘draft’ to return and send it later. It’s not like a work email where one wants to make sure it was grammatically correct and covered everything. More like the work of a criminal who thought it might come in handy if sent later (or might best be NOT sent).
I agree about the stories sounding pretty consistent and there must have been a lot of roundabout questions to trip them up – I would love to read them without the ‘spin’ of a summary.
I suspect that Joe belabored ‘here’s the critical stuff’ and warned them NEVER to leave that basic script. Lawyers know that what trips people up is getting caught in active lies. But even Joe couldn’t help himself in thinking he’d ‘outsmart’ the “dumb cops” by offering up extraneous things like the intruder may have worn gloves. Duh.
If you read the summary again, Victor’s knowledge is very limited because he claimed to have been in bed already (or POSSIBLY came home after-the-fact) and so it was easier for him to stay on point – and I still think it’s possible he didn’t even know the WHOLE truth while being questioned, that possibly he announced that he WAS calling 911 regardless what Joe and Dylan said which may have been the reason for the aborted-and-changed cover up. Even if he had been told that Dylan/Joe may have “looked guilty”, he might have said he would NOT be part of transporting Robert’s body elsewhere, yet may still have had enough questions (and desire) to think Joe wasn’t fully involved and agreed to stay “on message”. Possibly he dodged the questions about what he’d seen, but too it’s possible that he didn’t see or know much – if Joe thought Victor wouldn’t have been able to hold up, he would have kept him largely out of the loop. Or maybe he couldn’t stomach having Victor know all of what he’d done.
Joe and Dylan (my opinion only) desperately needed to stay on point, which may have been why Joe was so focused on Dylan, not Victor: asking if Dylan was being charged, volunteering that Dylan couldn’t “spank a child who’d been bad” etc. I even wonder if Victor was “allowed” to see Robert until he was on the 911 call (explaining the intonation change when he realized the stab wounds were to the chest, not the stomach, which he’d previously informed the 911 operator). Certainly the SUMMARY of Victor’s interrogation has fewer ‘facts’ than the others because he (allegedly) wasn’t there to speak with Robert, didn’t share in the water or chitchat, didn’t know when anyone went to bed, etc.
My guess is that Joe told Victor that the MOST important thing for him to do was to LIE that Joe had been in bed with him, that they’d gone downstairs and discovered Robert together. Joe may not have been willing to point the finger at Dylan, but he damned sure was setting it up so that he would not be the focus of inquiry. I don’t know if Joe’s that devious or not (suspect so), but maybe his yammering on and on about Dylan was in fact so the police WOULD focus on Dylan. Twisted, but not hard to believe when you think about it. To this day I think Joe’s planning and scheming to figure out what story to put out there which is most likely to save his own skin. He may not WANT Dylan to go to prison, but whatever serves him best is likely driving him – if he keeps the trio together, he can monitor the situation and make decisions as things progress. It would not shock me if Joe and Victor try to cut a deal to throw Dylan under the bus – Joe will hold all cards until the very, very end.
Wow, I’m speculating more wildly than usual. Sorry to all!
You go, Bea! Speculate away!
I agree with Bea….the 3 stab wounds for 3 people scenario….that just doesn’t work for me. Those 3 are thick as theives….they don’t need to perform a ritualistic stabbing to protect each other. They do it anyway.
Re Bea’s comment ” if he keeps the trio together, he can monitor the situation and make decisions as things progress.” Isn’t the trio unraveling at this point? It was said a few weeks back that Dylan has moved out. I find that…..odd. You’d think Joe would want his playtoy close at hand. Unless Victor laid down the law and told him to get out.
CD, I’ve read different accounts about whether the trio still lives together. I’d read that Dylan was in Virginia (where Victor’s recently widowed aunt lives alone) and the duo was in DC, but then read that Joe-n-Vic had moved in with the aunt. Don’t know if Dylan is there too but my money would be on Joe trying to keep them together. Agree that if Victor is laying down the law that Joe would have to resign himself to it – he’s got to be more worried about Victor than Dylan. Dylan’s likely way more guilty and needs to stay on message to save his own skin. If I were Dylan, though, I’d be concerned that Joe wasn’t scheming to come up with a story which absolves Joe and paints Dylan into the corner – by himself.
Agree 100%
After I re-read my comment about Victor laying down the law, I have to reconsider that…….Victor has been nothing more than a codependent. Supporting Joe in his “desires” all the while being seemingly emotionally dependent on Joe. Laying the down the law may be a bit more difficult than meets the eye. People with deep seeded issues don’t turn on a dime.
Bea,
Duggan’s piece post broke the news that the family is now living with Victor’s aunt in McClean. Duggan also points out how their living arrangement also reflected on the status of the developing relationship, starting with Dylan renting the basement apartment of Joe and Victor’s on Constitution Avenue. When they move to Swann Street and Dylan’s relationship with Joe deepened and the family grew, Dylan moved upstairs into the main home and the 2nd bedroom. Duggan ends the piece with “A trio of house guests now.” While, I think, he means it as commentary, actually he breaks news on the status of the family. For the first time, they all share an equal plane, there is no imbalance.
This family is on firm and balanced footing with each other. Their shared experience of this case has drawn them together tightly. Rather than being three individuals involved in an unbalanced polyamourous relationship they are now one murder case. Individual positions are dissolving into one defense.
At least that is the hope of Joe Price.
David, co-editor
The hope of Joe Price indeed. I truly hope that Victor’s attorney is speaking with him separately – under the circumstances, even with Victor’s “no, I want him here” would make it malpractice.
I don’t know about all that David. Architecturally speaking they may be in the same plane (floor) now, but I doubt that they sleep in the same room/bed. Dylan’s status is still that of “separate but equal” and we all know what a lie that is from other times that we have heard that formulation.
According to Duggan’s piece in The Post, the trouple is living in McLean with Victor’s widowed aunt. If that’s true, they are all still together.
Maybe they couldn’t afford the pricey 16th street pad anymore.
And Victor’s widowed aunt is going to put up with Joe’s concubine as well?
Oh, jeez…..how many other people does Joe have under his control.
“thick as thieves” indeed! Perhaps we need a new expression–“thick as murderers”. It doesn’t have the same ring, but it’s waaayyy more accurate…
INDEEEEED
Hello, I am new here and would like to express my largest respect for the editors and commentators on this site. The arguments take place on a great level. I know that I am interested in a delicate aspect but I want nevertheless to come up with it (like others before me, without beeing a Psychologist or medical trained person). Joe led a double life controlled apparently well by himself. Dylan Wards life however was characterized by constant exertion and border experiences. He lived a ménage à trois without beeing a equal part of it. He lived in a BDSM relationship, which was characterized of extreme dependence. He made himself not only emotional and sexually dependent of Joe (and thus indirectly Victor), but shortly before the murder of RW also professionally. His burning passion for BDSM techniques and toys accompanied with a racing zigzag course of its professional passions, which could be enough for several lives. Foreign Studies, cook diploma, study literature for children, author and publisher of children’s books, Massageschool, Development Director for VE (fund Raising) and back. As it is known he sufferes from medically treated depressions and sleep disturbances. O.k., nothing unusual for itself, but everything at one time in combination with drugs, which Dylan Ward used, that could be even too much for a very strong and intelligent character. Without speculating about medical conditions: Since there is a unexplainable logic-fact situation and a unexplainable emotional situation: My impression is that this gap can only be closed in a well-founded anlysis of Dylan Wardy psyche. I am sorry for my poor English.
Great post akibrazil! I agree 100%.
I hope to see you contribute more!
Welcome to aki and the new posters.
Post article: it mentions that Joe Price was out in college, but a while back, an anonymous poster here said that Joe was totally in the closet and palling with right wing evangelical student groups during college.
Also, that was an important quote from Kathy Wone about that time being the only time Robert had spent the night at someone’s house. The Wash Post should have included that quote ages ago when the story first broke. Would have helped squelch some of the speculations.
Nelly…..I remember that, as well…..although Joe was a member and former president of GALA (the W&M gay organization), it wasn’t until after graduation.
To recap my background: I am Gay — came out at age of 13 in 1965. I am bipolar — came out at age of 17 in 1970. I was at Stonewall — “3 Days of Rage” in 1969. I majored in ethnology at college — 1971 – 1974. I am “Rice Queen” with close ties to Asian community in general and Gay Asian cmty in particular. I have been both prosecutor and defense attorney. None of the above means that I am right about anything. All of the above means that I have insight into sexual minorities, political activism, Asians and lawyering. I think most would agree that the aforementioned is a relatively unusual background given this case.
Gay Activism
From the start I have been concerned that Price’s
and Zaborsky’s activism might color the judgment of both those outside as well as those inside.
Mental Health
Lexapro, Wellbutrin and Zoloft are psychotropic medications commonly prescribed for bipolarity.
Though relatively recent protocol is to prescribe mood stabilizer and not anti-depressants, this is not uniform course of treatment. There are two major types of bipolarity: I and II. I call I, manic
-manic depression and II – manic depression-depression. The prescription of multiple anti-depressants is more of a problem in I than II.
Given that I have medication resistant bipolarity, I have been on virtually all medications. Given that I am high functioning bipolar who had wished to be a doctor, I know more about meds than most.
If one needs more med info, please let me know.
Ethnicity
The subject of sex is generally considered taboo in most Asian cultures including among the Chinese.
Gay Asian men are generally regarded — fairly or unfairly, accurately or inaccurately — as being more “hung up” than other homosexual groups.
MIKE/CG/LAD
With respect to drug tests for psychotropic or other drugs in system of Ward or Price: 1) many drugs are X detectable in system; 2) crime scene investigators, forensic experts and coroners do not normally test for drugs unless they know what to look for, becuz there are simply too many. It is for that reason that ketamine was not tested for in Wone’s system. FYI: cutlery was not found in kitchen; knife found in bedroom was not that used in killing according to the coroner; knife used matched one missing from Ward’s set; Ward studied culinary arts and thus probably knew how to cut meat with precision such as in this case.
MIKE/CDINDC/THEMIS/BEA
The patio was thoroughly inspected with evidence that a garden hose was employed to hose blood down backyard drain.
The entire house — including the gate, kitchen, all three bedrooms, guestroom, tenant apartment, utility area, the stairwells, backyard — were gone over to the extent possible by a police department which lacks its own forensics laboratory.
PHIL/MANDY
Blood was wiped up all over the guestroom. The body was cleaned and ostensible murder weapon wiped down. There were traces of blood in utility area and on stairwells as well as in the backyard.
CDINDC/BEA
Sometimes there is an advantage to an informer coming forward earlier than later. In this case,
it probably would not make that big a difference.
Shortly after the crime, each of the Swann trio was interviewed separately for a long time in the hope of breaking down 1 or more of them. An unusual disclosure of the police affidavit was likewise so directed as is the obstruction of justice case.
The common depth, parallel location, and precise nature of the three wounds make it highly unlikely
that each of the trio stabbed Wone unless they were all part of a surgical team or played one on TV. However, one with culinary skill . . . .
TK
Coroner found that forensic evidence suggested
the following order of events: 1) drugging; 2) suffocation; 3) paralytic; 4) sexual assault; 5) stabbing. Thus, there may have been one or more persons involved in the incapacitation of Wone.
CG/CDINDC/WH
Regardless of sexual orientation, people in close relationships — parent, child, sibling, lover, friend,
comrade — have been known to lie for one another even in extreme circumstances such as rape and murder. Sorry to say: it happens all the time.
CG/PHIL/HOLLYBULL/LAD
One theory to which I give serious consideration is possibility that: 1) Wone was first drugged with date rape drug while drinking water in kitchen; 2) then incapacitated with a paralytic in bedroom or wherever; 3) then stabbed in emotional panic but with precision. “Hit men” do not generally employ
knife; knife is usually used in a crime of passion.
CG/LAURA
Outside of single birthday party and this one overnight, Robert did not have frequent interaction with all three of these men.
LAURA
I have been a human rights activist for the past 50 years. That includes anti-war, civil rights, LGBT,
feminism, disability, farm workers & indigenous.
While I may commune with like minded people,
not all of my friends have been activists. There are also pseudo-activists — Price got 1st Zaborsky and then Ward involved in LGBT politics.
RK
I agree with much of your analysis — especially the part about the unlikelihood of a novice curious about “walking on the wild side” engaging in such extreme sex for his first experience.
CG/CFPS/CDINDC/SPIKE/LAURA/HOLLYBULL/RK/APOLLONIA
My theory which has been propounded in prior posts at previous points in time is not dependent upon Wone’s sexuality, but does deal with the issue of unrequited love which comes in all forms.
One of the most common is where a Gay man has
unrequited love for his best friend. This was probably case with Gay friend whom JFK let stay in the White House for an extended period of time.
LAURA
Many people plan things like an overnight stay in advance. This would be particularly true of a big
firm lawyer who was accustomed to billing 20,ooo
hours a year who had just become general counsel to a political nonprofit in area of personal interest.
LAD
The coroner found no shirt fibers on the knife the trio presented as the murder weapon at the scene.
The coroner believes that the shirt was placed on Wone after the stabbing which would explain why there was so little blood on the shirt. The bedding appeared to have been changed which would explain why there was so little blood on bedding.
THEMIS/LAD
As I explained when called upon as something of an expert witness, one may ejaculate after death.
BEA
The timeline is foreshortened by calls recorded but never transmitted by Wone’s blackberry. If
Robert did not in fact make those calls, then trio or intruder had more time to do whatever done.
The multiple needle marks as well as their location suggest that Wone had already been given a date rape drug which made him unwilling but susceptible to a paralytic administered later.
Police — even the “keystone cop” DC MPD — routinely conduct area search of neighborhood including dumpsters as happened in this case.
According to recent reports, the Swann street trio live together in home of Zaborsky aunt if for no other reason than financial necessity.
BEA/WH
I am familiar with homophobia in police depts; this is precisely reason why their are GLLUs.
WH/DINDC/AKIBRASIL
There is evidence that both Zaborsky and Ward in different ways were dependent on Price. In almost every relationship, one person loves the other more than the other loves the one. We see this frequently where one partner reluctantly accedes to the “open relationship” demands of the other. Victor tolerated Price’s S&M relationship with Dylan, probably for this reason. In S&M, the physically dominant is X necessarily emotionally dominant. There is good reason to believe that Price was physically submissive to Ward, but emotionally dominant to Ward at the same time.
BLONDE
It is not at all clear that Zaborsky was receptive to the idea of Ward playing such a major role in Price
and Victor’s life. More likely it was acquiescence.
KEITH
I presume that coincidental is the fact that you and Carradine share the same given name. His sexual fetish proclivities were well known — in and out of Hollywood — prior to his death.
ALSO/CD/JD/LOST/PHIL/SUE/GRISHAM
There are many ways that semen could have found its way into Wone’s rectum without his active participation. For example: semen could have been on toys employed by Ward during Robert’s paralysis and forced ejaculation.
NEIGHBORHOOD/JUSTICE/TEDWIN
If indeed there was an intruder, he was very lucky that day: 1) the gate alarm was off; 2) the door did not need to be broken; 3) a weapon was found in the kitchen; 4) no sound was made on uncarpeted
floors and stairs; 5) Ward did not hear intruder pass his room; 6) Wone did not hear intruder come around to far side of the bed; 7) nobody heard this submissive Asian scream when stabbed.
BEA/CDINDC/LC/LOGAN/SAWARDYA
Generally speaking, nightguards do not fall out of one’s mouth. From what I gather, most people — male, female, Straight, Gay, occidental, oriental — do not employ such in expectation of sex activity.
One comment to all of that…..”precision” stabbing. You don’t have to be a surgeon or a chef to make a clean stab wound on a body that is motionless. The knife goes in. The knife comes out. No resistance.
This isn’t the Black Dahlia case.
One more comment…
Robert says: “It is not at all clear that Zaborsky was receptive to the idea of Ward playing such a major role in Price
and Victor’s life. More likely it was acquiescence.”
agree 100%
I think Victor was a bit of a “mentally battered wife”, so to speak.
Robert says: “As I explained when called upon as something of an expert witness, one may ejaculate after death.”
I’m not sure what context your comments are made in, as the originating postings are not clear, but remember his own semen was in his rectum. If he ejaculated after death, then SURELY he was sexually assaulted.
Below please find my murder theory which had been propounded shortly after the killing but prior to revelations about polyamory relationship and sadomasochistic tendencies among “Swann St 3.”
One of trio made sexual advances toward Wone in the kitchen and was rebuffed much to not only the dismay but fear by the suitor. However, that fear was “unjustified” in that Robert would not have reported it given his open mind, understanding heart and sensitive soul. He was not homophobic & would not have felt threatened by a mere “come on” by a person who could take “no” for answer.
If aggressor was Price out of unrequited love: 1)
he would have to explain to Zaborsky for fear of disclosure by Wone and impact on his spousal relationship with Victor who was probably jealous of what he knew or believed to be Joseph’s unrequited love for his classmate, Robert; 2) he would have to explain to Ward for fear of disclosure by Wone and impact on his sub/dom relationship with Dylan who was probably jealous of what he knew or believed to be Joseph’s unrequited love for his classmate, Robert.
If aggressor was Zaborsky out of jealousy: he would have to explain to Price for fear of disclosure by Robert and impact on his spousal relationship with Joseph and that his behavior would reinforce Joseph’s demand for “open relationship” with his sub/dom partner, Ward.
If aggressor was Ward out of dominance: he would have to explain to Price for fear of disclosure by Robert and impact on his dominant subordinate relationship with Joseph and that his behavior would reinforce Zaborsky’s demand for end to “open relationship” with Dylan.
Add to the mix, these facts about Price, he is: 1) “once upon a time” closeted homosexual now Gay Rights activist; 2) dominant partner in a marital- type relationship with Zaborsky; 3) “control freak”
professional who dominated Ward by day; 4) suit-and-tie who was dominated by educated but “rough neck” Ward at night; 5) in unrequited love with his schoolmate and protege, Wone.
Add to the mix, these facts about Zaborsky, he is: 1) Gay Rights activist thru Price; 2) insecure partner in marital-type-relationship with Price; 3) reluctant onlooker at dominant/subordinate relationship between Price and Ward; 4) jealous of what he perceives 2B feelings of Price for Wone.
Add to the mix, these facts about Ward, he is: 1) dependent upon Price for employment; 2) dependent upon Zaborsky for housing; 3) in devolving relationship with Price; 4) jealous of marital relationship between Price and Zaborsky; 5) jealous of friendship relationship between Price and Wone; 6) “out-of-control” sadomasochist; 7) mentally unstable, drug abusing, 4ever wandering,
predatory Rice Queen with a fetishistic, insatiable appetite for Asians — Straight or Gay.
Add to the mix, these facts about Wone, he is: 1) admirer of his schoolmate mentor, Price; 2) wannabe accepting of homosexual relationship between Price and Zaborsky; 3) unaware of sado-masochistic relationship between Price and Ward which he might or might not be able to absorb; 4) in love with his wife — regardless of whatever his sexuality may be on the Kinsey scale.
As I think you may see, this is a recipe for disaster only compounded by: drugs, alcohol, mental illness, anger, jealousy, rage, obsession and sado-masochism by “Swann Street Three” facing relative naivete and innocence on part of Wone.
Interesting, Robert. I have a few comments…..
re “If aggressor was Price”…….I don’t think Joe was the type of personality that would feel they had to explain anything to anyone.
If Joe was the aggressor (which I believe he was), it would anger him to be rebuffed (for Joe gets what he wants.)
re “If aggressor was Ward out of dominance”……I don’t think Ward would do anything out of dominance. His sexuality is controlled by Joe. Joe has a need to participate in submissive S&M sexual encounters (whether it is out of self-discipline, self-punishment, or a “look how tough I am-I can take anything” need). Joe tops from the bottom.
And personally, I think Victor is guilty of conspiracy, tampering, etc., but not murder. I don’t think he was in the mix when it happened.
I think Joe started it and made Dylan help him finish it.
It would help Robert if you would revise your theory based on the open polyamorous rel. b/c some of it seems out of date with what we know now. Re: your theory – I’m not sure there were “open” advances made to RW in the kitchen – I think he was slipped something there to start the process, and I think this was an equal decision b/t DW and JP. VZ was not supposed to be home. It seems DW and JP had been looking for the “right” threesome – and they thought RW fit the mold – whether he was willing seemed to be irrelevant. It seems likely to me that DW was the one who inflicted the stab wounds – probably based on JP’s freaking out thinking RW was dead – I wholeheartedly agree that the wounds are way too consistent (in absolutely every aspect) to be performed by 3 separate people – and it was likely the one experienced at it – DW. I don’t think he would have ANY problem doing this.
Your theory on how the entire clean up happened from the point of stabbing to getting rid of “stuff” would be interesting to hear. I don’t think it’s really relative that DC Policy searched the neighborhood dumpsters. It is so easy to get around DC and into different “neighborhoods” to dispose of something, and I am still of the belief there was someone who helped with only this aspect.
Robert – Welcome back. We have a busy couple of weeks ahead as the 3rd anniversary of the murder looms.