It Doesn’t Add Up, Mr. Kirschner (Updated)
We’re 10 days away from the April 24 status conference in front of Judge Frederick Weisberg. And there may be no better time to begin a microscopic examination of the many inconsistencies, anomalies and possible errors in the affidavit and charging document, both by the prosecution and the Defendants.
Let’s start with giving the US Attorney’s office a simple lesson in arithmetic and broadcast schedules.
The Swann Street neighbor (W-3 in the affidavit) heard Victor Zaborsky’s scream occurring during the WJLA-TV newscast, anchored by Maureen Bunyan on the night of August 2, 2006. That newscast preceeds ABC’s Nightline. It was also stated that Victor called 9-1-1 at 11:49pm.
Based on the newscast’s length of 30 minutes, on page 12 the prosecution’s conclusion states that the roommates “…delayed their call to the authorities for an extended period of time… from as little as 19 minutes or as many as 49…” Well, not so fast.
The WJLA 11:00pm newscast does not end at 11:30pm, it runs until 11:35pm. Years ago the broadcast networks shifted their late night programming by 5 minutes or so to allow affiliates an additional station break to sell advertising, giving them 10 and 11pm newscasts.
Meaning Bunyan may have signed off as late as 11:35pm. We hope to hear from WJLA’s traffic department to confirm. Another possible discrepancy may be in the Vanderbilt University TV news archive which shows the August 2, 2006 Nightline like many other of the show’s broadcasts did not air until 11:38pm.
There’s now a possible 8 minutes of wiggle room in the affidavit’s facts. These few minutes might not seem like much, but when you look at the compressed time line of the night of August 2, whether using the Defendant’s statements or the prosecution’s, those precious moments may matter for both sides.
Perhaps the Defendant’s didn’t wait as long to dial 9-1-1 (now 14 minutes, possibly 11, but we don’t think it’s 19 minutes) as the affidavit states. Or perhaps the time line of events as given to police by the roommates lacks the same “non-fanciful” evidence as their intruder theory (page 13).
This of couse also begs the question of just how long it takes to dial 3 digits on a phone: 9-1-1. On your marks, get set… cover up?
UPDATE: A call from Nightline offices confirms the 11:35pm program start for at least the last 10 years. Nashville ABC affilate WKRN may delay their start time of Nighline until 11:38pm, explaining that small (3 minute) discrepancy in the Vanderbilt database. Let’s call it 14 minutes not 19.
-Craig
Wow, Editors!!!
Great post… what attention to detail… but perhaps your last thought, Craig, is the most important… does it really matter whether they took 11 minutes, 14 minutes or 19 minutes to call 911… any way you look at it, it seems like too long to make the 911 call…
And it *still* could have been as long as 49 minutes…
Yes, very VERY true.
good find
I’d like to know how much detail the neighbor remembers. Commercials. News article. Could help to narrow the time in question.
Agreed! Especially with the natural rhythm of nightly news – the formula of: a weather teaser; too much time on the Redskins (even off season); local news; a little national news (forget world news); human interest; weather; then 10-13 minutes of sports with perhaps a 5 second reminder about weather for the next day. You can time it night-in and night-out. There must have been some part the neighbor had to have remembered that night.
Indeed, and does the prosecution already have a much better idea of the exact time of the scream?
I have been asking around of people I know who live on or around Swann. I want to be delicate with this matter, as I am sure that the neighbors feel sensitive about this matter. But the neighbor in question, people surmise, must have been the one who watches TV on his third floor. That is something apparently one can innocently notice from the street. Therefore, it is likely that Victor
screamed on the third floor of the defendants’ house. Otherwise he would not have been heard clearly enough to have it be remembered so well. This means that he screamed when he was told what had happened. Perhaps the plan was never call the police, but Victor changed it. I want to echo what others have said. There is still time for Victor, who looked like a hunted animal on TV fleeing from court, to take steps to distance himself from the wild things in his life.
I agree Corcoran re: Victor needs to break away. I would donate to his individual defense fund.
But I question if someone were to scream, would one scream on hearing the news that there has been a murder in your home vs. the scream you would produce in seeing the horror of the blood and body (especially of someone you know)?
Prior to your posting, my thought was that most activities were contained on the second floor and that was the location of emanated scream. Now I am opening my thoughts to Victor seeing the body on the third floor as a possibility. Again, this goes back to my gnawing interest in what floorboards from what location were removed (sorry that subject was included as part of two postings for today).
Thank you for your investigation as to what neighbor and where they watched TV that night. Yes, it is delicate and I feel for that person.
Re the floorboards, Anon. Blood seeps. It’s liquid. Although, the defs may have been able to wipe the surface sparkling clean, it doesn’t mean that any blood that may have been on the floor did not seep into cracks and crevices (especially if it’s tongue and groove flooring), or under baseboards, etc.
That’s another reason the evidence teams ripped up so much flooring. To look for remaining blood evidence.
I’m also very interesting in finding out about that evidence. In time, the prosecution will release everything they have. Then the defense can have at it.
And one more thing….they wouldn’t know if there was dried blood in the seams of the flooring………unless they rip it up. (Doesn’t mean they found anything, but it’s very possible they did.)
According to the affidavit for Dylan Ward’s arrest, on page 6 and 7, W-3, the witness who said they heard a scream, said they were watching TV in the room adjacent to the one where Robert was found, so it should be the 2nd floor and not the 3rd floor. Based on this testimony, it would be logical that Victor’s scream was from the guest room, and not the 3rd floor master bedroom.
Michael, editor
I don’t want to pretend any knowledge I do not have. But I have heard a number of things which make me think that “adjacent” may be a relative, and intentionally ambiguous term. Thus my previous comment may still be applicable. Don’t forget that with the walls to the stairs themselves to the third floor gone,
the third floor is oddly “adjacent” anyways.
As to screams of different sorts, I think it all depends. I can well imagine that being told, as opposed to seeing it, could elicit a terrible scream. But please understand that all of this is speculation, based on some disparate facts.
Michael, this is totally off subject but how does one associate a pic with their name? Like that handsome tabby?
CD –
Sorry for the delayed response – ’twas the eve before Tax Day, LOL.
Setting up the “Gravatar” as WordPress calls its avatars is easy, and we have enabled the site to display the Gravatar associated with the email address that you couple to your postings. Go here to sign up. I encourage all regular commenters to create a Gravatar. It makes it easy to identify a commenter when reading through a page of comments.
Your Gravatar will also work on certain other blogging services that have the technology enabled and if you use a consistent email address.
I look forward to seeing yours and hopefully more from other regular readers.
Michael, editor
Thanks Michael!
The neighbor heard the scream between 11:00 and 11:30. That would be when Victor saw the body and screamed. That DOES NOT mean that the clean-up/coverup started at that point.
Wone could have arrived at 10:15 (or earlier) and could well have been dead by 10:40 or so. Dylan and Joe could have been well into cleaning up the mess when Victor awakened and came downstairs and screamed.
Just because our bois state that Victor and Joe were asleep together upstairs until they heard “the beep” doesn’t make it so …
“The scream”…..I”m not being facetious when I ask this, but what kind of scream was it? Was it a school girl on a roller coaster kinda scream or was it an “oh my god” kinda scream?
The reason I ask, is that it sounds like a there was a scream of “terror” heard by the neighbor. I don’t think Victor would have done that.
I personally have happened upon a horrible scene (not the murder of a human being), but horrible in it’s own right. I gasped. Knocked the breath out of me. Oh, my god, oh my god, oh my god, was how I reacted. Stunned and then I went into action. My reaction sort of…. escalated. But I wouldn’t say that anyone in the next house could have heard me.
Was it truly Victor that “screamed?”
Thanks for sharing your experience CD. I was trying to put myself in the situation, and could only think of “fight or flight” responses. My personal inclination is I think I would have run out of the house. (Also I would not want to be the first person to go back to the empty house, alone, the next morning.) Perhaps it would be unfair to try to put ourselves in anyone’s shoes in that situation, as everyone would react differently, yet again it is one of the ways we can formulate ideas and cope with the unexplained. In addition, we may be dealing with someone or persons who are pathologically like us.
Is your track of thinking that there was an unknown/unnamed person on the premises, or it was Sarah? I think we are confident that it was not Robert himself… aren’t we?
My thought is that if were a scream of terror, it might have been Robert. If he were stabbed at about the time the scream was heard (let’s say 11:10), that would have been approximately 20 minutes minimum (not likely) to 50 mintues by the time the EMT’s arrived. That would have been a significant amount time in which Robert would have digested his own blood. Depending on where/how he were stabbed, depends on where/how much blood there was to clean up. And if they killed him out of “necessity” (to protect themselves from being accused of rape) they may have “prepared” an area (or killed him in the shower). The stab wounds gave the appearance of being methodically done (same direction). A frenzied attack would have yielded stab wounds at various angles. The blood evidence on walls ect could have been transferred while moving him INTO the guest room.
Anon says: “as everyone would react differently, yet again it is one of the ways we can formulate ideas and cope with the unexplained.”
Absolutely.
Yes, I don’t think we should assume that because Victor said he screamed that it was indeed him, though why they would cover that up is a mystery… except that if it were Robert who screamed, stabbed by an intruder, they would have presumably come running; but instead they heard a low moan, and it took them all a while–allegedly–to respond, giving time for the alleged intruder to make his escape.
I also think it’s odd that the neighbor heard the ‘scream’ and took note of it, but didn’t do anything. No 911, not even a call over to see if they were all right. I wonder how well they knew each other.
TK says: “I also think it’s odd that the neighbor heard the ’scream’ and took note of it, but didn’t do anything. No 911, not even a call over to see if they were all right. I wonder how well they knew each other.”
Lord, that could be a whole different blog. The lack of empathy in today’s society. But then again, maybe he thought it was par for the course. I’m sure Joe did his share of squealling inside those walls. Ow.
No. I disagree completely. In my experience the residents of Swann are very responsive to alarming sounds on the street – whenever anything happens, there are multiple people on their cells phones calling for help. That said, every weekend there are moronic kids walking to or from a night out on U Street who let out screams that sound alarming. I always look out my window, and its almost always some stupid kid horsing around.
Beyond that, a single scream heard through a wall is different – especially the walls in question, which are really thick.
First, one isn’t sure what one heard. If the screaming continues, you can assume someone needs assistance, but if its a single scream, one assumes the situation is under control – particularly if your neighbor is not one person living alone, but three or more able-bodied people who give off the impression of being able to manage themselves. Its one thing to hear somewhat scream “help,” but an alarmed scream could be many things.
If one were friends with the neighbors, one could more easily call or go over right away and knock on the door; but for strangers, its a different story. I’m sorry to say that if I had heard a single scream, I would be much more likely to check in on my neighbor to the left, whom I (barely) know and who lives alone, than my neighbors on the right, whom I don’t know and who appear to be plentiful.
This is pure gossip, but I doubt very strongly that the neighbor in question knew the residents of 1509 at all.
I’ve thought long and hard about what I would have done if I were in that neighbor’s situation, and I’m sorry to say I don’t know – it all depends on just how horrible the scream was.
I don’t think this is a Kitty Genovese type situation.
Excellent point about the screams.
I remember one night I heard my upstairs neighbors get in a horrible fight — doors slamming, screaming.
If the police would have rang my door that night or the next night to ask me questions because a murder had occurred, then I would have told them everything I remembered about the screaming fight I heard.
If the fight would have gone on any longer than it did, I probably would have gone upstairs to see if everyone was all right. Then I would have decided to call the police (or not).
That’s just me.
But doesn’t the evidence suggest that Robert was in no condition to scream when the attack occurred?
Incapacitated doesn’t mean someone can’t communicate.
If he was injected with ketamine, he could still possibly “communicate.”
Anyone that reads this post, should go to youtube and search for ketamine. You’ll see trip after trip after trip. People in various stages of drug intoxication from ketamine. MANY of them, although helpless, do speak. And many of them are completely unable to fend for themselves, and could be easily subdued.
And, if a knife were plunged into someone’s heart while on K, they may well scream.
This is disturbing, and thanks for the info CD. In my own little world I have wanted to believe that Robert had no idea of what was going on – no sensation of pain, sight, or sound.
Is there eye movement during a heavy K trip? Heading to YouTube shortly. As posted before, I ponder if the broken blood vessels in Robert’s eyes were the result of a physical reaction to the stabbing and had less to do than suffocation as a possibility suggested in the documents. Or, was suffocation part of the play; or attempted after a perceived drug overdose?
Aren’t there any medical examiners who would like to weigh in… please?
ooops – just re-read my own post. The wording should be “not pathologically” in: “In addition, we may be dealing with someone or persons who are pathologically like us.”
What continues to trouble me is the relatively short period of time between when Wone allegedly arrived at the house (10:30) and when the call was made (11:49). A whole lot seemingly happened in an hour and 20 minutes: catching up in the kitchen, then the three retiring, and then a whole lot of alleged events, including injections, the assault (which alone would take a few minutes; I don’t know), suffocation, stabbing, washing the body, dressing it, cleaning the scene… And if the residents did conspire: going over the story, showering, planting the knife, disposing of the other stuff…
It just seems like a dizzying amount of activity.
Agreed. That is why I have always questioned the apparent fact that Robert was a true-blue hetero… would be easier to explain if it was consensual sex gone bad or something of that sort… Certainly would love to know what Joe, Dylan and Robert’s email communations, etc., said leading up to that fateful night.
Also, is there any way to possibly expand the timeline?????
For example, is there any possibility that Robert arrived earlier than believed or, perhaps, the trio was continuing some activities that had begun earlier in the day or preceding days, or that Robert did not actually talk with the defendants prior to heading up t bed?
Any others have any ideas?
I mentioned once before that perhaps Robert immediately retired upstairs. Kinda late when he arrived. Tired after a long day. We’ll chat in the morning sort of thing.
That means if he DID arrive at 10:30 as they claimed, that would have give them 1 hour and 15 minutes (or so). And if you are a bit more flexible with the arrival time 10:15 as IKWDI suggests, that 1.5 hours.
That they say they chatted in the kitchen means nothing. They are accused of evidence tampering, you know. If they tampered with evidence, wouldn’t you think they would lie about the timeline, as well?
I think too much weight is placed on what the defendants claimed happened from 10:30 on. They aren’t exactly credible at this point.
Indeed. If those communications indicated that something… anything… was planned, obviously it would throw their entire story out the window. And we know Price, who kept S&M pictures of him and Ward on his WORK computer, was not too discreet.
TK,
We know that large quanities of S&M photos and gay male pornography were found on Price’s work computer, it is not clear that the photos on the work computer were of Price and Ward. Photos of Price and Ward were found on his home computer. It doesn’t mean that there weren’t photos of Price and Ward on the work computer, just that the affidavit for search warrants is not explicity clear on that point.
David, editor
I fail to see what is relevant about whether or not there was consensual sexual activity. It doesn’t add to an explanation of why the murder occurred, nor does it necessarily speed up the timeline. I suppose the presumption is that if they had planned ahead of time to have a sexual episode they all might have jumped straight to it as soon as Mr. Wone arrived, but it is just as easily possible that they would have spent more time hanging out and doping up.
Further, supposing there was consensual sex actually takes away from what seems to be the most likely motive for the murder – that it was necessary to cover up the rape and torture of the victim.
Last, its a huge leap from someone who might want to dabble in gay sex, to someone who is game to participate in extreme activities of the sort that Price and Ward found compelling.
The thought of murder for “covering up rape and torture” just does not seem right to me. Rationally thinking adults, two of them attorneys, with a 20 year history between one housemate and the victim leads me towards the ability to “talking out” what transpired. (Maybe the “rationally thinking” part is off.)
I understand the reasoning behind a rapist killing an unknown victim to silence them, but it is harder to reconcile a rapist, known to the victim, killing within the rapist’s house. A simple “Robert, we were wrong, can we talk this out.” is a hell of a lot easier than trying to cover your ass by killing. Even if a rape charge were tried, there is a stronger chance you would spend little to no time in jail.
If your theory is correct, given the amount of time this case will take (the years this will drag on unless someone comes forward) and that the prize breadwinner is not working, they may have wished they faced rape charges over the obstruction, let alone murder.
Kinda like being all frenzied up on drugs huh …
Could have been. Not ketamine though. They wouldn’t have been able to move. X. Maybe Dylan and Joe were high on X. It made Robert look very appealing when he walked through the door.
Sadly.
Ecstasy makes people want to stroke somebody’s face and tell them how beautiful they are. Not rape and murder them. Steroids make people enraged. And crystal meth can make people crazy and paranoid after years of steady use.
The latter.
Actually, studies have concluded that long-term use of ecstasy can cause “a variety of behavioral and mood problems, including, but not limited to, depression, self-destructiveness, violence, and irritability.”
X is not all nicey-nicey.
Thanks for the link to the affidavit. I just read it (for the first time, I think.)
Wow.
Here are some of my thoughts:
— I’d never paid attention to the needle marks. I’d assumed Wone was injected with a needle once or twice. No! “Multiple” punctures to his neck … 3 to his chest … 2 to the top of his foot (??!!) … and 1 to his left hand. WTF??? It sounds like a needle stabbing frenzy. If we assume that it’s the needle (or what was *in* the needle) that incapacitated Wone and made him unable to fight back while being stabbed, then what kind of drug takes 6+ injections to take effect??? And why wouldn’t Wone have fought back *at that point*? If I was awakened by someone jabbing a needle in my foot, wouldn’t I have time to say “WTF are you doing??” and maybe even kick the person? …. Hmmmmm.
— The timing does not make any sense to me. Rather, the timing suggests to me that Wone’s murder was pre-meditated. If he arrived at the house at 10:30 and 411 was called at 11:49, then that’s a little over 1 hour before Wone was dead. And, according to the affidavit, the roommates spent some of that hour talking to Wone in the kitchen. Let’s assume Wone walked into the house at 10:30 and then it took 20 minutes to sit down, share a glass of water, then get to bed. Well, it’s already 10:50. Then Wone *showered*. Let’s say he showers fast … 10 minutes. So, now it’s 11:00 pm. That means Wone died between 11 and 11:49. And he was repeatedly punctured with a needle first, which supposedly incapacitated him. And then he was sexually assaulted. All in 49 minutes??? To me, it sounds like it was premeditated. Someone acted very fast!!
Anon says: “Is there eye movement during a heavy K trip?”
Ketamine has hallucinagenic properties, so I imagine what can be seen is distorted.
However, ketamine can be short lived when given in small doses, so after a few minutes the person comes out of their high and is cognizant of their surroundings.
Perhaps this is why Robert had so many injection sites. The ketamine would disapate and he would have to be injected again and again.
If he was injected, at least 6 times (plus multiple times in the neck) using minimal amounts of K each time…..let’s say 10 x 4 minutes = 40 minutes.
10:30 – 11:15 [scream when stabbed][2-3 people clean for 30-40 minutes][call police 11:49]
Now this leads to dark thoughts of Robert being injected again and again after he was stabbed (note, I do not say dead to be in keeping with the autopsy) to keep him out of it until he eventually died.
Actually, my thoughts are he was injected prior to the stabbing.
I was thinking prior and after during that last post.
Oooh, CDinDC … that makes sense!!!!
As for what I was saying in my previous comment about the timing of the whole thing: All we have are the roommates statements that Wone arrived at 10:30pm, right?
So, if they’re all lying, then the timeline can’t be believed, right?
He could have arrived earlier, and the needle injections, sexual rape, then knife wounds would have all been spread out.
Let’s say they all agreed on a “fixed” story. It’s possible Wone was stabbed at 10:30 and it took until 11:49 for the “clean up” to occur.
Thank you, Fascinating!
What evidence is there to either support or refute that Wone arrived at 10:30?!?!
It seems like it is in the best interests of the defendants to shorten the timeframe and in the best interests of the prosecution to extend it…
Someone was w/ Wone before he went to Swann st. – and he also made a call to his wife from his office
the last person to see him before he got to Swann street gave an estimated time of when he has saw Robert. That would allow some wiggle room for when he got to Swann street.
My best guess as to what happened that night:
Joe Price and Dylan Ward, based on their Alt.com profiles and websites like hard-master.com, were way beyond “simple” assault. They were up to murder, and they planned the murder of Robert Wone.
Following another poster’s theory that sometimes the simplest explanation is the correct one, I believe the basic outline of what the defendants have said is accurate: Robert arrived about 10:30. He, Price and Ward had a glass of water in the kitchen, probably laced with something, and spent a few minutes in chitchat. Robert, drugged and sleepy, takes a shower and puts his mouthguard in, then is attacked by Price and Ward.
The murder takes place in Ward’s bedroom, where Joe and Dylan’s activities usually take place. They are familiar with the equipment, they are comfortable with a large part of the unfolding scenario, and everything is ready: A “playsheet” (bondage websites guarantee that they are leak proof for any substance, and in addition can be machine washed and dried) is already on the bed. The knife used in the murder is already in the room.
Until I saw the CBT images, I could not imagine this scenario, but now believe it is the only one possible: Joe Price and Dylan Ward’s intention was to murder a human being. They used multiple injections to “pin” Robert Wone down and, while he was paralyzed and completely helpless, Joe and/or Dylan stabbed him three times in the chest. They both watched as Robert Wone bled to death.
Again following the simplest explanation theory, Victor is in fact awakened by the sounds of guttural moaning and comes downstairs to investigate. He screams, loudly enough for the person next door to hear. Whatever Joe and Dylan’s original plans were have to be adjusted. Robert Wone is wiped off; maybe washed off in the bathroom; taken to the guestroom and placed on the unrumpled bed. Joe and/or Dylan sexually assault a probably dead Robert Wone. They redress him. Victor calls 911.
The cleanup was probably easier than anything we have imagined. Remember, Joe and Dylan had been practicing S&M for four years and were prepared. CBT as well as all the bondage gear available has to be seen to be believed. It is simply not in the scope of most people’s imaginations. It wasn’t in mine, anyway.
Also: Prior to the 911 call, Victor is clued in on whatever (modified) story Price and Ward had already concocted and, again, they would be less likely to trip up if they stuck to some real facts. Bloody evidence is taken downstairs, leaving stains on the walls and floor. Stains are left in the guestroom when Robert’s body is carried into it. Two things have always struck me about Joe Price’s behavior that night: He claimed at one point to have removed a knife from Robert Wone’s body; that’s an extraordinary thing to say, not an action you would forget or confuse. He may well have removed a knife, either after stabbing Robert himself, or removing the murder weapon after Dylan stabbed him. And I know this is creepy (?!), but the EMTs’ statements that Price was sitting on the bed staring at the dead body of Robert Wone; that he did not turn to face them as they walked up behind him; and that he kept the front of his body facing away from them as he left the room, suggest that Price may have had an erection.
Sorry for the length of this post, but it’s all been churning in my mind for awhile, and I think this scenario fits into the timeframe. Any thoughts are welcome.
They are just criminals. I saw through Joe Price right from the start, and I consider all the queens who defended him pathetic self-loathers. As to all the legal folks who thought he was so fabulous, it just shows how pathetic the law is nowadays.
I am sorry to say this. But I hope that Deacon McCubbin and the owner of the Leather Rack have been questioned for what they know about all this. Both of them had very disturbing crap in their magazine sections which would be a terrible inspiration for such people. Also, Lambda Rising had Nambla literature on their racks for years, much to the disgust of us decent queens who wanted to see naked ADULTS.
I don’t have any problem with S&M per se, and think the defendants are an anomaly in the S&M community. They appear to have a hole in the soul.
I just think the reason most people can’t reconcile a friend, or otherwise “normal” person, committing murder is because most people have no awareness of some of the extreme aspects of S&M.
KM, do we have a mutual friend with an Akron connection?
Not sure. Several years ago I visited Akron with a friend, though.
OK, sorry. My mistake.
I am very disturbed at what I find in the magazine section at Borders and Barnes & Nobles. REALLY fucking disturbing crap there!!! I don’t think it is right to hold Deacon McCubbin and the owner of the Leather Rack to even higher standards.
I don’t think you can compare bad designer mags and wrestling crap to some of the stuff that the two stores in question have had on their racks.
I would suggest, that there are more magazines suggestive of murder at Borders and Barnes & Noble than there are to be found at The Leather Rack.
Having said that, I would hope the DA will have a good interview or two with the Leather Rack’s owner and staff.
Are you referring to the Weekly Standard?
Where there’s smoke, there’s fire, John. I come out of the non-judgmental, free-to-be-you-and-me school of thought, but you also have to take seriously the things your eyes and ears are telling you.
If someone habitually engages in sadistic actions in order to derive sexual gratification – then that is a person who habitually engages in sadistic actions in order to derive sexual gratification. And if someone makes a business out of selling accoutrements to sadistic sexual activity – then that someone is a person who makes a business out of sadistic sexual activity.
Such a person might ordinarily be pleasant, or likable; but that doesn’t negate the other aspects of his personality. Such a person should be at the top of the list of people to be questioned.
I wish you didn’t compel me to post anymore at this site. They certainly didn’t intend to kill Robert. And yes, they used a “playsheet” or two.
OK, you’re arguing that this was first-degree murder: murder planned ahead of time. While CDinDC is right that the prosecution needn’t prove motive for the obstruction case, motive is a crucial element of a first-degree murder charge.
So:
The motive you’re ascribing to Price and Ward is “they were into BDSM, and therefore wanted to kill someone”? Because that’s just plain wrong; honestly, it’s just like saying “because he’s gay, he must want to molest children” (and there are, sadly, people who think that, too). Unless you’ve got a genuinely good reason that Price and Ward would have sat down and said, “Hey, let’s kill someone,” I’m afraid your entirely theory is built on a foundation of thin air.
There’s no shortage of other problems with the idea of it being a premeditated murder. Why not wait until Victor would be out of the house, or ask him to stay elsewhere? Why not commit the murder somewhere isolated, somewhere other than a highly-populated suburban street? And
As I said when John Grisham proposed a theory like this, there’s a flaw in this logic as well. First of all, there’s no reason to assume that just because someone screams, the police are on their way, and indeed the only 911 call made was made by the roommates themselves; whoever heard the scream didn’t bother. Second of all, your scenario isn’t complete unless you can explain what “Joe and Dylan’s original plans” were exactly. If this was premeditated murder, what did they actually plan to do?
Those are the highlights of what I think are the problems in your theory. I see all kinds of other problems here–things like the “suggest[ion] that Price may have had an erection” are really just pure speculation based on facts that are consistent with countless other explanations.
Lance,
Refer to my post at 12am.
The motive I ascribe to the defendants is a hole in the soul.
Yeah, “hole in the soul” doesn’t hold up in court very well either, and I’m not even positive what it means. You’re suggesting that they sat down one night and said “Let’s kill someone” because…they’re simply terrible people? Is there any evidence to support that?
Lance,
It helped in Manson’s trial. It’s irrelevant that you aren’t positive what it means. Yes. Yes.
I think “hole in the soul” is pretty good as a background explanation, but not as an immediate one. My sense in life is that there a few things that get people very angry -perhaps with emotions that might be called murderous. But there are a few. One salient one is feeling judged in a way you didn’t anticipate. Gay guys are used to being judged about being gay, so they have pretty good armor for that. I think the most likely explanation, the simplest, is that Dylan suddenly realized he was being judged
and found wanting by Joe’s long-term
friend. It could have been a word, a glance, a grimace. Dylan’s mental illness filled in the rest. Then it was a matter of “I’ll show you”. The tragedy unfolds from there.
Interesting. If Dylan did feel he was being judged as “wanting”, it could play into the evening whether one or both committed the murder …
Robert, by all accounts, does not seem to be the judging type, but perhaps Robert made Dylan (OR Joe) feel inferior.
I touched on this previously…. perhaps it was JOE that was the dominant partner. Topping from the bottom as they say. Dylan may have wanted a more superior role (not dominant), but was unable to gain that in his relationship with Joe. Joe, being the consummate control-freak (as brought up by other posters) made sure that everything he touch was under his control. Even his s/m proclivities.
This control/lack of control dynamic may have spiralled out of control, resulting in Robert death.
Of course that is the terrible thing about this. Robert seems to have been a very sweet human being. His judgment may have been of a compassionate sort… (speculatio): “Oh I understand why he’s into such weird stuff, ’cause he’s had a hard life…” That look of understanding may have come across as a sort of pity. This is especially true if Dylan, living by the tropes of children’s fantasy
fancied himself a very impressive
creature of a dark fantasy realm.
Yet even this, like all things, is grounded in a more commonplace level judgment. Here was a nice guy, who had eschewed the blandishments of big time lawyering and worked for a non-profit, and this non-profit guy was judging Dylan, also a non-profit guy. Such subtlety is, in my experience, just where the the stuff that cuts to the quick really resides. “Even Robert is judging me!” Doubtless you need a heady vehicle of mental illness or extreme perversity to go from
that to murder. But Dylan seems
a reasonable candidate for that. What a sad, sad tale.
But please note that Dylan was only a “nonprofit man” because Joe got him that job. Dylan had no prior fundraising experience, but Joe the founder was able to sway the board to give boy a job.
I really don’t think one needs to think any further than the obvious: Price and Ward derived sexual pleasure from sadism and humiliation. We know this, because they were pretty open about it.
This is the motive behind countless rapes. While it is interesting to try to get out the underlying reasons why Price and Ward turned out this way, in terms of motive, further explanation is unnecessary.
I think you are really setting up a straw man here. If you take a look at this site generally, most of the attitudes towards more extreme sex seems to be pretty understanding. It is you who are making the jump by comparing it to anti-gay discrimination. I don’t think anyone is going to read this site and believe that the writers are a bunch of prudes. There seems to be the tendency to treat this as if it were some sort of accident — whoops, look what happened. I am not trying to be funny. Premeditation does not necessarily mean a long advanced nefarious plan. It could have been a relatively spontaneous nefarious plan. But it was intended. Broadly speaking extreme
sex might be analogous to extreme sports. It is not illegal to jump of a canyon wall if that is your thing. But to force someone else into it
would be a crime. It is as simple as that.
I know it reads like a straw man, DD, but it really is the argument that KM made. What KM describes is not something relatively spontaneous, but rather something planned well before Wone walked in the door, since they had the drugged water ready for him. That goes beyond spontaneous, and that’s what I’m arguing against.
(And yes, the analogy to anti-gay discrimination is indeed new in that comment. But the point is that KM seemed to be saying that the fact that the roommates were into BDSM was enough to suggest that they would want to murder Wone; regardless of whether “most of the attitudes towards more extreme sex seems to be pretty understanding”, this attitide didn’t, and this was the one I was responding to.)
Now, as for the straw man you set up: I never said that it’s not a crime to force someone else into extreme sex or extreme sports. What I am saying is that, to use your analogy, just because someone does participate in extreme sports doesn’t mean they also throw people off cliffs. Lots of people do lots of extreme things without ever once crossing the line into forcing other people into it or killing them.
I agree with your point.
“But the point is that KM seemed to be saying that the fact that the roommates were into BDSM was enough to suggest that they would want to murder Wone”..
Per my comment above, what part of “I get off on sadism and humiliation” doesn’t add up to being a reasonable suspect for rape and murder?
Who do you think commits rape and murder – people who *aren’t* turned on by sadism and humiliation? I’m not saying all rapists are part of S&M scenes, or all people who are part of S&M scenes are rapists / murderers, but the fact that someone has a strong interest in sexual activities featuring simulated rape, torture (and, I presume, murder) is a giant, waving red flag.
I”m not so sure about that, Anon. People like the BTK Killer, Richard Ramirez, John Wayne Gacy, Bundy, Speck, the “girl in a box” guy….the list goes on and on…..these people didn’t participate in organized S/M. They all acted alone. The crimes were not preceeded by years of black leather events at the local Eagle. I’m not saying that dabbling in controlled s/m scenes can’t lead to something more aggressive, but for the most part….it doesn’t. There are thousands and thousands of s/m enthusiasts out there that never do anything that is non-consensual.
I wanted to clarify my thoughts on BDSM regarding this case.
-I don’t believe that SM leads to murder; like most Americans (I’m assuming) I have experimented with bondage and drugs without adverse effects rather, you know, good times; but I’d also assumed that most people, like me, hadn’t seen photos of pins stuck into penises and testicles, hammers about to strike engorged testicles, etc. Do other people really not find those photos shocking? Maybe I am vanilla.
-I do believe Price and Ward’s obsession with BDSM led to this murder for the simple fact that – there is a dead body.
-I believe murder was the intention because the sight of Robert Wone bleeding out, the time it took to digest his own blood, the pure gruesome image that made Victor scream, would have FIXATED Ward and Price; torture and death led to sexual stimulation, leading to rape;
-Ward and Price weren’t aiming to be Leopold and Loeb and plan the perfect murder. They were simply on a progressive path, accompanied by drugs and the holes in their souls.
May I just interject the issues raised by feminist theorists like Andrea Dworkin that the sex act itself (i.e. vanilla) may involve some level of sadism, subjugation, and humiliation.
Oh no, just a personal preference, please don’t …
I think you’re letting your inexperienced-with-the-world-of-sadomasochism-imagination run away with your fantasies. It’s a pretty big “graduation” to planning to murder a human being, yet you make it sound as if it’s the logical step after CBT. Kind of the way people who know nothing about drugs think one puff of grass equals a future heroin addiction.
If, in fact, Joe and Dylan fancied themselves the next Leopold & Loeb, they most likely would not have committed the act of murder with Victor asleep in the home. It just doesn’t make sense and flies in the face of the notion of it being the simple solution.
Perhaps, PERHAPS, there was a sexual assault fantasy and perhaps (PERHAPS!) it was a consensual one. It’s worth considering that it was might have been a rape or a rape “scene” gone horribly wrong that brought about the death of Wone and some sort of escalating attempt to make it look like a murder by intruder than to ruin Joe Price’s career over an S+M scene gone awry. To me, that possibility makes a whole lot more sense.
John Grisham, I was composing my post as you posted yours.
Sorry, I meant “Lance.” Jesus, I better go to bed now.
“Jesus here. Do you want to make a wish?”
No, it’s OK. John Grisham and I have pretty much the same views, so it’s easy to confuse us.
“I see all kinds of other problems here–things like the suggest[ion] that Price may have had an erection are really just pure speculation.”
Actually, Lance, I really doubt that Price was able to have any sort of erection; at least in the presence of people that were alive.
John, this comment is nothing but a personal attack on Price, and I’d thank you to follow the policies of the site and not post like this again.
Now, now Spike, you were right. It is Lance that regulates this site.
I don’t see this as a premeditated murder in the sense that Joe and Dylan expected to kill Robert when he made plans to come over. Not that they’re incapable of such a thing – just not “practical” to kill a well-known attorney whose wife knows he’s spending the night there. They’d find someone with fewer ties, someone with shadier “friends”. I agree with the ‘hole in the soul’ comment, however, and suspect that Dylan (and possibly Dylan and Joe) attacked Robert thinking that it was a come-on that wouldn’t be turned down (being irresistible) or because he/they or were too drug-addled to care.
I agree that Dylan (and possibly Joe) were “prepared” with the rubber sheets, possibly in Dylan’s room but also possibly in the guest room, and once it “got out of hand” and Robert was dead, appeared dead, or they realized would claim rape at the very least, Dylan/Joe decided to kill him. I think that – the decision to kill – was likely “premeditated” despite it not being a planned evening of death.
I am curious to know if Victor’s business trip was supposed to keep him away that night – without doing a lot of rereading I just don’t recall but think it possible that it was written he was home unexpectedly early. Dylan may have figured that he’d make a play for Robert as a result. My instinct is that this was not known to Robert (I suspect he really was straight and not interested) but even if he was up for a romp, he had no idea what kind of stuff Dylan had in mind. Regardless, Dylan just didn’t stop and was trigger happy with the needle. I think it appealed to “Super Joe” to figure out their plan to take care of the situation – under no circumstances was Joe willing to have a “rape” reported in his home, even if he was not involved, especially if it meant Daddy Dylan would go to jail.
What doesn’t add up is why Victor is willing to do serious jail time over this. Nothing suggests that he was into this, and even being head-over-heels over Joe and believing most of his BS, it would seem that Victor would have an original thought at some point and speak to his lawyer. My concern is that Joe masterminded the lawyering up in such a way that Vic’s attorney is not leaning on his client.
I’m with you on about 85% of this theory Bea … well done.
::weighing in::
I have to agree with Lance. S/M enthusiast does not equate to murderer. Unfortunately, there are people that cross the line, but generally, they don’t. Thank heavens.
Re premeditation. I agree with Dupont Dweller. A premeditated crime does not need to be concocted 24 hours in advance. Premeditation can be the time it takes to go somewhere else in the house and get a weapon. The assailant has the time to think about the crime in advance and to know that it’s wrong. The assailant carries out the crime anyway. 1st degree w/premed.
I think that Joe/Dylan, while under the influence of drugs, made a decision to include Robert in some sexual escapades. Robert declined. Joe and/or Dylan became angry at being rebuffed, drugged and subsequently assaulted Robert. After realizing the gravity of the event, decided they needed to fabricate another story to cover their asses. Murder insues. Victor decides to help with the cover-up under duress.
Re Bea’s questions about Victor: Little has been posted about Victor. In my opinion, Victor may have been a bit like the emotionally abused spouse. (Yes, men suffer from abusive relationships, too.) Joe does whateeeevvvver he wants. Live in sex partner. Looking for additional sex partners. Victor stands back and watches. He even tries to enjoy Joe’s pursuits in the best way he can (voyeurism perhaps) to make Joe happy. All the while, Victor is in emotional pain because of this. Joe says that he wants to end the relationship with Dylan, but he doesn’t. He makes promises, but he continues to allow his sexual addiciton control the house. Over the course of 10 or more years, Victor ends up suffering from extreme self esteem issues, whereby he is willing to do anything to keep Joe and not loose him (i.e., assist in a coverup). (Not to mention, Victor is tied up financially with Joe.)
For discussion sake, is there any possibility that Victor was just fed up with the whole “trouple” thing, and tried to frame Dylan??
Little angel driven to the dark side by deep seated feelings of jealousy… how dare Dylan come into his house… take a part of his partner both emotionally and sexually…
Clearly, based on Joe’s Alt.com profile and the cache of pics on his computer, his relationship with BDSM and Dylan took up a lot of his emotional energy… plus the two children, the lesbians, Sarah Morgan (the in-home roommate), Joe’s legitimat extra-curriculars (such as Equality Cirginia, SLDN, etc.), not to mention his hard charging legal career…
Could it be Victor snapped?!?! Maybe Joe and Dylan discovered it and at that point, out of guilt, allegiance, loyalty, what have you… helped cover it up…
Certainly explains motive…
Ummmm, no …
Next contestant please?
Ouch…
I have not heard the Joe-Victor-Dylan relationship referred to as a ‘trouple’ by anyone other than Sarah Morgan and her band of Mary Gays. Do you know Sarah?!
BTW … I also believe that Victor’s involvement in this whole shebang is more than just post-murder silence and consealment of knowledge regarding Dylan’s and Joe’s actions. I think Victor was more intimately involved in the relationship between Joe and Dylan, and on the night of the murder, I’m willing to bet that he was at least aware that some experimentation with a newbie or drugs or something was going on in the house.
For what it’s worth, I was friendly with Joe and Victor in the late 90’s trough about 2003. Last time I saw them was for a brief moment in 2008 when I ran into them whle running some errands. I met Sarah a couple of times at dinner parties, etc., but wouldn’t have called her a friend, or even an acquaintance, rather someone I know of…
I posted before that I thought it was interesting that “K” is focused on a lot on this board, because my recollection was that Joe and Victor were, at the time, friendly with a Vet technician who, my understanding, was a bit of a druggie and sexual deviant…
Interesting, IKWDI. Could certainly be an easy source for the drug. K is readily available, as I understand, in the drug market these days. It’s become a pretty standard party drug in the rave circuit and it has worked it’s way into the gay scene as well. I first heard about K about 7 or 8 years ago through a drug and alcohol counsellor I was friends with. A lot of guys would mix it with X. They called it Alphabet Soup.
LOL, you guys are funny.
The rubber sheets … check! Seems totally plausible.
I’m hung up on two things though.
1. Premeditated Murder? My instincts tell me it’s more like sex-play gone wrong (which doesn’t make it right!). However, I agree with the other person who pointed out that the evening *was* premeditated in many ways — had to have been. If they drugged Wone’s water … the needle injections … if they rubber-sheeted the bed … etc. They planned to have sex and drug Wone.
2. Price’s Erection …. If he’d taken Viagra or another such drug (which people who use “party” drugs often do), then maybe you’ve got a point here!! It could have been involuntary at that point.
I also wanted to point out — this has always bugged me regarding this case — that people should be less judgmental regarding the S&M and “pervy” aspects of this case. I agree with the other commenter that blanket statements about S&M are like saying “of course he molested a child, because he’s gay.” Not all S&M participants kill. And if you mix drugs into the scenario (see that Newspaper dude & his trick from Craigslist), then the outcome can be dangerous. I just hate to see assumptions that Dylan Ward must have done it because he’s the pervy one. (Although, I admit that the evidence isn’t good for him…)
One last thing that’s bothering me about the whole thing, which relates to the whole PREMEDITATED idea …..
Why Wone? According to the statements, he’d never even been over to the house before! So why, on his first visit, is he killed in such a strange manner?
And, after reading the affidavit, we only have the words of the defendants who tell us Wone was “strictly heterosexual”.
I know Wone has been murdered and I feel bad even saying this about a dead man.
But …. how straight was he?
How did the murderer(s) decide to have sex with him, when — according to the statements — he was such a stranger to that house?
Hmmmm.
Fascinating,
I agree about Wone; there are some things that seem a little dodgy about his reason for sleeping over. In some ways he and Price were still pretty close: they threw Wone a birthday party, I believe, and Price was chosen (presumably by the widow) as a pallbearer. How often did they socialize?
And there has been talk that Ward had a thing for Asians. Wone was a handsome guy. Maybe even Wone wasn’t entirely sure in his head why he was going there that night, though I doubt he was hoping for serious S&M (but who knows). Maybe Ward and/or Price had that in mind, but I don’t think that murder was on the agenda. One has to wonder why they thought they could get away with such a thing as the assault though, unless they thought Wone would go along with it. Maybe he wanted to stop when it got too weird for him and it was too late?
How long had Wone been married? I think only 3 years.
Which reminds me: how much information can we hope might be released as a result of this hearing on the 24th? Might anything new be made public?
argh….how did that happen? CDinDC = Tuckercat
That darn cat getting on the keyboard? Bad kitty 🙂
Well, given that it’s not the case that all murder is premeditated murder… There are crimes of passion, for instance, where someone picks up a knife and stabs someone else in a blind rage. Or, for that matter, in a panic. Even three stabs, if done in rapid succession, needn’t involve enough time to consider one’s actions.
My current THEORY (which continuously evolves):
Robert would like to spend the night in town. Enjoy the luxury of having a short commute if even for just one night every-so-often. Perhaps he is also pondering what it would be like for he and Katherine to move into the city. Maybe Ashburn is just too quiet and suburban for his tastes (this does not mean Katherine was not on board with this as well, it is just framing an idea as to why Robert may be in the house to begin with.)
Robert was open to exploring different sexual practices. Although in a stable and happy marriage with Katherine, he had enjoyed a more versatile sexual identity in college and when single. (I know this idea disturbs readers, but in my experience as a 40-something gay man in DC working in the STD prevention field, the world is much more fluid in their sexuality than people want to admit. Categories make us all feel better and gives order to a chaotic world.) Robert knew that Joe and Dylan practiced BDSM and was a little curious to explore this. He felt safer in exploring this with people he knew… especially a gay man he has known for 20 years (Joe). Joe may have known Robert’s prior sexual history which aided in the comfort level. Although Joe and Robert were not interested in having a sexual act together as it could change the paradigm of their friendship, Dylan was still enough removed from the Joe/Robert interaction to not make it “weird” yet still provide a safe environment.
I know this is making some readers scream because they think that if Robert was interested in exploring drug induced sex with any of the housemates, this would make him partially at fault/blame in his death. This is extremely wrong folks! Robert was a victim of murder that he did not “sign up for” when he expressed interest in exploring sex.. Engaging in sexual practices does not place any level of blame on Robert or remove the guilt of the person or persons who did kill him.
So Robert arrives. The four chat for a little bit. Victor excuses himself for the evening. Joe stays for a while but suggests it is getting late so he would like to show Robert to his room and where he may find any amenities. They complete that process and Joe wishes Robert and Dylan a “good night” and heads upstairs. (This is where I admit my theory is not fully formulated.) Either by prearrangement or in rapid discussion, Robert and Dylan strip in the second floor central sitting room. (Robert may wear his T-shirt or not…) Robert lies on the floor (unsure if the floor is bare or an area rug is used for cushioning). Towels are underneath Robert to make the floor more comfortable and for ease in clean up from lube, sweat, and body secretions. (I am not a fan of the idea that rubber sheets were involved. If people are into water sports, they will play in a messy room, in a basement that can be washed down, or in a bath tub. Unless there are photos of Joe enjoying his funnel anywhere outside of the bathtub, I am sticking with the thought that these boys were too anally clean and kept the place immaculate – pee would not be an invited guest in their living areas. Trying to trap liquids in a tarp or rubber sheets is very hard to do without spilling a drop – I just to not see them wanting this to happen.)
Dylan injects Robert in the foot and in the neck. They start to play while Robert is feeling the effects of the drug. More play ensues, but the drugs start to wear off, so more injections are administered. Dylan enjoys playing with Robert in this state and makes Robert climax (I am thinking more hands than electrodes and the like. Keeping it simple for their first play.). Dylan continues to sexually play with Robert after he climaxes and uses either his finger or a toy to sexually assault Robert. (As I have posted before, few men wish to be penetrated after they climax. This is across the gamut of gay or straight or the “biggest of bottoms.” Therefore, in a normal frame of mind, the insertion would be rebuffed and since Robert could not respond, the assault takes place.) But Dylan is surprised that there is no response from Robert. It is as if Robert is in a deep hole and he is not coming out of it as fast as expected. Dylan shakes Robert to no avail. Dylan panics and starts yelling at Robert to come out of it.
Sub-theory a) Dylan panics, runs to his bedroom and looks around for something to help him in some manner. Perhaps Dylan is under the influence of something too. Dylan is not thinking correctly and wonders if some sort of pain would bring Robert out of it. That is when the knife comes out of its box. Dylan on his knees on the floor, above Robert’s right shoulder. He pushes the knife into Robert with no response. He tries again, and then again.
(Last night I read about a murder in AZ [see: http://www.kpho.com/news/19186576/detail.html ] What struck me was that the murderer commented that he was surprised how smoothly the knife went in, commenting “it was like a knife in butter.” This graphic depiction brought me to this case.)
Sub-theory b) Dylan sees Robert’s insight and disapproval in the three-way relationship, especially the truly weak party (Dylan). Dylan takes this opportunity to end it. It may not have been his intent at the beginning of the play, but in the current state of mind (either mental illness or drug induced) he seizes the moment.
[Side note comment… It is evident that knife play was part of a norm. Who keeps a three piece knife set in their bedroom? I could see if Dylan had recently moved into the house and had left-over household items from a prior residence tucked away in boxes for future disposal or storage. But to “store” it in your nightstand? I do not know about knife play and cutting, but wouldn’t a military or hunting style knife be more in keeping with a masculine sexual dominance than a kitchen knife set? Just curious.)
After Robert is stabbed, Dylan freaks out and yells for Joe. Joe comes on the scene and is thinking, maybe saying “WTF have you done!!” They try to stop the bleeding, but have an idea it is no use. They have to come up with something but they need help, so Joe gets Victor out of bed. Victor sees the bloodshed on the second floor and screams. They proceed to move Robert to the shower in the second floor bath. Either they initially leave him there while they start the clean up, or one stays with Robert while two others begin clean up. Towels are washed out in the sink by hand and thrown in the dryer. As this is all going on, they argue as to how they will explain the issue.
After they clean up, they wash, dry, and dress Robert. (I am not sure about the T-shirt slits. I can go either way with this – either Robert was wearing the t-shirt during the encounter and it was cut then, or they realized the shirt had to have matching slits to fit their story. Stuck on this one.)
One of the three is either instructed or takes it on themselves to remove the knife and a towel that is too bloody for washing. They run down the stairs and head for Sarah’s apartment. As they enter this area, they think twice and back track out the kitchen door, down the stairs to the patio. They pull out the hose and wash down the knife and towel (and maybe themselves). Two of the men move Robert’s body to the guest room. The third comes back from getting rid of the weapon (guess is they ran down the street a block or two to a dumpster). Dylan, Joe, and Victor are still covered in blood and they have made a mess in their frantic state. They do another review of the second floor, wipe down the door jam and walls where they have bumped, and then the three of them shower together, all the while refining their story (most likely arguing too). After showering, drying, and refining the storyline, they realize they now need a weapon – that the “intruder” did not take the weapon with them. So a knife is procured from the kitchen, planted with blood from the towel by Joe, and left on the nightstand. (Now that I write that, it may have been Joe who got the knife from the kitchen to begin with – they admitted that Joe’s prints would have been found on the knife handle because Joe was the one who supposedly removed the knife from Robert’s chest.) Then, Victor dialed 911.
Okay – this theory has holes, but it is where I am with the case at this time. I do not take criticism of the theory personally, but accept an intellectual spar.
The part I don’t buy about your whole theory is not that people’s sexual investigations are fluid as you say. I am constantly amazed by the phony credulousness which both men and women are willing to assume as to people being straight. There are many, many, many “straight” guys out looking for sex with guys. It is only because of people’s bizarre elastic conception of themselves
that allows them to keep up the show. Does anyone remember Chad Knight? He got rammed by 10, 000 guys, and he still claimed to be straight. So that, at length, is not my problem with your whole conception. It is with the real-world improbability that Robert would have thought of his old college pal as a person to explore this with. Perhaps if either Joe or Dylan were an absolute stunning beauty one could make a case that Robert, conceivably, could have secret pined for them. They are nice looking guys, and I could reasonably assume some would find them attractive. But as an old college pal and his odd side-kick it seems almost impossible that this would be where Robert would have his hankering placed. It makes no sense. This is in no way to imply that he did indeed have that hankering. Frankly, in my experience, straight guys who are the most at ease with gay guys are the least potentially closeted. Robert seems like that to me.
I understand your reasoning, and that is why I removed Joe out of the picture of the play. Dylan was close enough to be trusted for this play, yet emotionally distant (and less history) to still be appealing as an alternative for Robert.
I guess I would have to say a maybe to that. It occurs to me that maybe he was curious of what his old friend saw in this guy. But I point out that this is not the most obvious answer. But possible. I am almost afraid to ask, but did Robert show interest in children’s literature and/or an interest in the ouevre of the author of Naughty Jack? A related question does nag. Why did Robert want to spend the night in a house with so many people in it? This has nothing to do with gay or straight. But why choose a place to stay over with all these people? Not a friend’s condo with an extra bedroom, but a house full of people, on a hot night. That to me is the biggest mystery on Robert’s side. What was he doing there? I understand they were friends, but my personal experience is that people in the ‘burbs don’t stay over in the city at friends, especially if they have a wife/partner. There is no traffic at that hour so he could have gone home. Unless this happened: Perhaps Dylan let it be known that he was studying massage and needed to practice. Would Robert like a free massage?
It is amazing how far people will travel for anything free, and a free massage even better. Perhaps things devolved from there.
The issue with the speculation about Mr. Wone’s sexuality is not that some people think sexuality comes in rigid categories (though its true that people think that way) and can’t imagine he would have had an interest in gay sex.
The issue is that there is no evidence whatsoever to suggest Mr. Wone had such an interest, and yet the topic comes up over and over again. This is classic rape victim-blaming thinking – though it has not yet progressed to its logical conclusion here.
The fact is that most people who hear about rape immediately jump to speculation about what the victim might have done to provoke or cause the assault. The speculation that this rape and murder occurred because Robert himself chose to come over and engage in (verboten) sexual activity is a lite variation on the tired narrative of rape as the inevitable punishment for illicit sexual activity (think Looking for Mr. Goodbar).
What I am trying to say is: there is nothing about having an interest in gay sex, or engaging in gay sex, that connects to rape / torture / murder. Even if Robert had an interest in experimenting with men – and what if he did have an interest, but had no interest in pursuing it with Price / Ward? – it is totally irrelevant to the crime that occurred.
As totally irrelevant as whether or not Wone had a glass of water, or orange juice. Or whether he arrived wearing a business suit, a track suit, or a cocktail dress. Speculation about Mr. Wone’s sexuality doesn’t elucidate anything – all it does is lay the groundwork for an evil and false cautionary tale about the inevitable punishment for (gay) promiscuous behavior, and that rape only happens to people who are “asking for it.”
I find perfectly plausible the theory that Mr. Wone thought he’d kill four birds with one stone that night – take the ABA course; then meet the RFA night shift; save time on the commute to and from DC by staying overnight; and catch up with his old friend who lived conveniently nearby where he was going to be. That is more than enough to explain why someone might stay over at someone’s house.
NM state: “Speculation about Mr. Wone’s sexuality doesn’t elucidate anything – all it does is lay the groundwork for an evil and false cautionary tale about the inevitable punishment for (gay) promiscuous behavior, and that rape only happens to people who are “asking for it.” ‘
No – what a few of us are trying to get as is how so much could possibly have happened in such a short time frame. By opening ourselves to Robert being receptive to the idea of having sex with someone within the house, it provides a much clearer road as to the many steps that occurred in a short time frame. In addition, if it was outright rape, then was it remediated rape. If the rape was premeditated, then why didn’t the person think out the legal and interpersonal implications of the rape? Were they going to talk Robert out of pressing charges? If not, then we are left with premeditated murder.
From the language I have read on this blog, I hardly see contributors suggesting that sexuality in any way leads you down the path to being raped. (or someone could be gay because they were raped as a child). In fact, I perceive a number of contributors who are gay men who are healthy in mind regarding their sexuality, not self-loathing people who want to “blame” anyone or an incident on their orientation.
In addition, in no way does it diminish the great man Robert was if he did agree to have sex with anyone. What we are outraged about is that someone ended his life. He never deserved that or the rape. The sex could have been consensual, but the insertion of an object in his anus after he climaxed and while under the influence of a drug constitutes rape to me. I am torn as to if the climax was wanted or not.
As a gay man who was raped, I can clearly state I was gay before the rape, and in no way did it change my orientation. A lot of alcohol with a drug dropped into my drink at JRs a number of years ago left me waking up sick as hell with a dude jacking off on my face. Not until I was clear of mind a few hours later did I realize this sexual top had been topped. Yes I am angry. Did I deserve it? No. If anything, it makes me more empathy for any person raped.
I am terribly sorry to hear about your experience.
On the subject of this crime, I don’t see consensual sex as an expediting factor. (I believe the speed with which this crime unfolded indicates that it was planned in advance, and they were just waiting for the right victim).
Further, I don’t see consensual sex as a relevant factor at all. And while I know that the posters here are not anti-sex, I do think we all operate within the same mass culture, and that mass culture teaches us (constantly and falsely) that rape is the result of a direct causal action by the victim- either you walked in the wrong place or at the wrong time, were too sexy for your own good, were doing something risky, led your attacker on, etc. Its always what the victim did, and what the victim should or shouldn’t do to prevent being raped. (By contrast, we’re told to never infer from a person’s actions, attitudes or preferences that he might be a rapist – that’s a big no-no).
As you have shared from your terrible experience, whether or not you went to JRs that night seeking a partner for immediate sexual activity, or just felt like having a drink after work, or were supposed to meet up with an old friend, has *nothing* to do with the crime that happened to you. Whatever you had in mind, it wasn’t that. What matters is that you were at JRs, the monster was at JRs, and that you were assaulted by him.
N.M., I understand what you’re saying. I feel like I’m a bit fixated on Wone because it makes the crime *much more* horrible if he was drugged and raped. I suppose I want to believe that he at least “curious”. Otherwise, it’s just horrible what happened to him.
But the other reason I’m a bit fixated on Wone’s sexuality is that I have a hard time getting my head around *how* Wone was subdued. He wasn’t knocked unconscious. At most, he could have been stabbed with the K needle.
I don’t know … maybe it does put too much blame on the victim. And maybe I’m not able to accept that the two or three housemates flat-out drugged him, dragged him upstairs, and raped him …. so horrible.
Fascinating, that was one of the main things that initially perplexed me as well about the murder. “How could Robert have been so quickly and easily subdued, without evidence of a struggle or use of force?”
My theory is that the first thing Joe did when he welcomed Robert at the door was to suggest that Dylan give him a massage, to relax him after his long stressful day. Upstairs, in the guest bedroom, while Dylan kneaded particular locations on Robert’s neck, feet and hands, Joe covertly and quickly injected small amounts of a substance into Robert (the same way your dentist rubs your gums while shooting them with Novocain, so you don’t necessarily feel the needle prick). After the fourth or fifth injection, Robert responded and saw what was being done to him, and that he was being sexually caressed. While now very droggy, he was still able to look in Joe’s eyes and mutter something, such as “Why Joe?” (Alternatively, a little acupuncture was offered by Dylan; only medical needles were used rather than pins). Further rape, paranoid decision-making and murder ensued.
John,
that makes sense to me. Also, iirc, Robert had a choice of staying the night at Joe’s and at the home of another friend, which also somewhat shoots down the experimental sex theory.
The emails between Joe and Robert may reveal why Wone chose Joe’s house, and may well include that he was enticed by the promise of a relaxing massage after a very long day.
Thanks N.M. I am not sure why I bore my soul, but a posting last night from “John Grisham” caused me to reflect and evaluate my approach to this case before bed.
When you write that the crime was planned in advance, do you mean the assault or murder?
You are right to focus on the blame-the-victim tendency. It seems to persist in many places and is quite sick. Personally, I think it is based in the hatred of sex itself. People are fascinated yet disgusted
by sex. If someone is sexy, then they must be doing something to others, therefore the reaction of others is, in this twisted logic, about something the person is doing. Human psychology is really screwed.
“Who keeps a three piece knife set in their bedroom? ” Dylan had a culinary degree. Could explain the presence of a knife set in his bedroom.
However, the absence of a knife from that same set could explain murder weapon theories.
Indeed, I believe chefs are possessive of their knives. (See, e.g., Top Chef on Bravo, where chefs are dismissed by being told to “pack up their knives”; chefs bring their own knives, regardless of what other kitchen equipment they use onsite.) And in a shared living space, it’s not inconceivable that someone would keep something in his own room.
Reading something differently now – anyone? Something had been nagging me about Victor on the fateful night. I went back to the affidavit and realized certain language is ambiguous and that I may have read it incorrectly. In “Victor’s Statement” it says “[A]ccording to Zaborsky, he had come home early from a business trip and learned that Wone would be spending the night at their home. He indicated that he did not see Mr. Wone when he arrived as he was already in bed.” I THOUGHT THIS MEANT VICTOR WAS ALREADY IN BED WHEN ROBERT ARRIVED. Now, when reading Price’s statement that “he and Zaborsky had gone to bed and sometime thereafter heard the door chime” this suggests that maybe Victor arrived after Wone was in bed. COULD IT BE THAT VICTOR’S ARRIVING HOME EARLY FROM A BUSINESS TRIP MEAN THAT HE WALKED IN THE FRONT DOOR, UP THE STAIRS, AND INTO THE MIDDLE OF THE MESS – AND THUS THE SCREAM? Sorry to use capital letters, and SORRY if this has been addressed before and I missed it. Anyone else go down the possibly wrong path?
Wow… very good question!!!
Bea,
I think you are on to something, and if you are the same “bea” from the data lounge postings, this sounds similar to your analysis that it was Victor who arrived early from the business trip, walked in on the scene, and screwed the pooch with his scream, which I always thought took the available evidence and hung it together rather nicely.
David, editor
Hmmm….gotta go read those affidavits again. Interesting point. Those are TOTALLY conflicting statements. Good eye, Bea!!
And maybe Joe did hear a door chime….Victor coming home
A lot of psychiatrists say that sometimes there are elements of the truth in lies and alibis.
Good work Bea!
Now, was this trip taken by car, train, or plane? If plane, what plane? And was the manifest reviewed? Yes, there is wiggle room in timing from National to Dupont and how fast the luggage arrived, but there is also a difference between a plane that lands at 4 p.m. vs 9:30 p.m.
Bea – Outstanding work.
-Craig
Wow, there’s so much to discuss.
One common thread in a lot of theories posted here (on the site in general, but in these comments in particular) is the idea that Dylan and/or Joe’s judgment was impaired by drugs. There are unexplored facts here, though I don’t know that we have the means to explore them, but they mostly boil down to the question, “Do we have any evidence that any of them were on drugs?”. The affidavit, when discussing the EMTs’ assessment of the roommates’ behavior as odd, seems to suggest that it was odd because they were covering something up, and not because they were on any sort of drugs. Additionally, the roommates were questioned by the police: would any drug that had impaired judgment at 11:15pm be obvious to a detective? Would they have worn off by then? And would the police have been able to test for drugs, if they thought drugs were in play?
There are other things that strike me about posts, though I need to go offline for several hours; perhaps I’ll post them later.
Perhaps a reason that the defs allegedly waited to call the police was because they weren’t in a condition to face authorities. Perhaps, if they were under the influence, they needed to “sober up” not to mention clean up the scene.
Lance says “And would the police have been able to test for drugs, if they thought drugs were in play?”
I imagine it would be no different than if a police officer pulled someone over for DUI. Suspicion is enough for a police officer to conduct field sobriety tests. But I guess all that is moot since they didn’t and now can’t.
Moot, unless the fact that they didn’t is considered evidence. i.e., “If the police had evidence that the roommates were on drugs, they would have tested. They didn’t test. Ergo, there was no indication that the roommates were on drugs.” (Which, yes, still allows for the possibility that they had “sobered up” in the intervening time; I still wonder if that would have been possible, given the drugs discussed, since I know nothing at all about their effects. But I gather, to take an unrelated drug that I’ve at least read about, that if you took LSD around 10:30, the difference between 11:15 and 11:45 probably wouldn’t help.)
good point.
Ketamine can last from minutes to a couple of hours depending on the dosage. so, in this particular case, again, depending on the dosage, they could have come out of their “high” enough to be in control of themselves and appear “sober.”
And detactment is an effect of K. They defs were all a bit detached at the scene. Each of them walked away from EMT’s when asked what was happening. But that could have been under the advise of Joe. They “lawyered up” from the get-go.
advice…not advise.
Oh my friend, they didn’t lawyer up for the initial interrogation (8 hours each) which is absurd and only speaks to the extreme narcissism of Joe Price …
agreed — it is that 8 hours that will be their achilles heal — bet they said some inconsistent things that they will hear again. victor, darling, call me — i can help get you out of the trash can.
I found your all-caps helpful, Bea. It is an important shade of meaning that could have major implications.
I will say that one very common fantasy I have encountered over the years of dipping my toes in the sexual undergound has been one of powerlessness and surrender. I have found this to be especially true of men who are otherwise straight but are beginning to explore same-sex feelings. Guys like this, PARTICULARLY guys who are in powerful positions in their jobs and who have families that they support, often have fantasies of being “forced” to have sex with men, against their will. Sometimes these fantasies even involve being drugged and taken advantage of.
In other words, these fantasies give them the change to explore their deep desires without having to take responsibility for acting on them. I have definitely heard of guys arranging these sort of fantasies for themselves. This is one way they can compartmentalize their sex lives and put it out of their mind while going about their daily routines.
So, to me it would seem this is where the “scene gone horribly wrong” theme could come in.
The only thing I can’t wrap my brain around is the long to-do list that these guys would have gone through to get the place ship-shape before calling 911. I would assume a sense of panic would have drawn things out a lot longer and there would have been obvious slip-ups along the way.
Drugs, drugs, drugs….they make you do crazy things. Seems to me, leaving the scene “as is” and “finding” Robert in the morning would have been more….logical…..I suppose.
Which leads to: “You had to go and scream didn’t you Victor?” Waiting until morning may have been a plan and option until the scream.
You know, I’m still just not sure about this. I feel like “oh, great, someone screamed” isn’t enough to drive a plan from “we have a carefully determined way to dispose of this body” to “panic panic panic!”. I mean, again, it’s not like anyone else felt compelled to call 911 when they heard it.
Many drugs amplify paranoia. You’ve done some drugs Lance. Have you ever experienced paranoid sensation?
Do I have to quote the “no personal attacks” policy again?
LOL. (Sorry, couldn’t resist.)
I was “Bea” at Datalounge, FWIW. I totally agree that the chime reported by Joe could have been Victor coming home – try to weave in as many “facts” as possible. Victor’s claims to have been home the whole time are NECESSARY to “vouch” for Joe having gone to bed AND to explain why the hell Victor didn’t run into the “intruder” – he had to be in bed next to his beloved for the “intruder” to have had an opportunity to do all that violence AND do all that clean-up in such a short time frame.
Anyway we can find out from the GOT MILK folks WHERE Vic’s business trip was that day? The wording used implies to me it may have been an out of town trip, thus the “early” may have meant he expected to stay overnight – if so there are plane records which puts Vic’s arrival into Dulles or National. . .
Or I need to just go back to my real job for the day.
Bea, excellent interpretations that Joe did hear a doorbell because Victor had come home, and Victor’s comment that “he” had gone to bed. FWIW, I had interpreted that statement to mean that he, Victor, had gone to bed too.
You’re really good at this. Please don’t stop investigating.
Bea, excellent! When I read the affidavit yesterday, I remember noticing that “Zaborsky … had come home early from a business trip and learned that Wone would be spending the night at their home.” didn’t quite gell with the other stories. And that “[Zaborsky] indicated that he did not see Mr. Wone when he arrived as [Wone] was already in bed” completely conflicted with the story of the four of them sitting around having a glass of water!
So …. are we saying it’s possible Wone, Ward, and Price were having some sort of threesome-gone-bad and Zaborsky walked in on it? Then the three roommates coordinated their stories?
I have to say — and I realize logic sometimes doesn’t apply — but I found it odd reading the affidavit that Price was in his UNDERWEAR the whole time the paramedics were there. WTF?? Maybe this says more about me than Price, but I would have thrown some shorts on or something.
Finally …. the other thing that stuck out for me while reading the affidavit yesterday was how CLEAR it was that the paramedics were SPOOKED by the behavior and actually were afraid the roommates might have weapons. It was mentioned above about how the roomies may have tried to “sober up” before calling authorities. Could the “vibe” that the paramedics felt be that “party-gone-bad” vibe?
If they were giving K to Wone, does that mean that they would have been taking K, too? I’ve never done that drug, so I have NO CLUE how you do it, how long it lasts, or if it’s something everyone in the “group” would have done together.
Very interesting theory about Victor coming home to discover them, Bea!
Fascinating, in the affidavit I believe they said that it was just Wone, Ward and Price in teh kitchen having water, and Zaborsky never saw Wone. I believe they indicated that Zaborsky had gone to bed before Wone even arrived…
TK and Fascinating –
Were you thinking too that Victor had gone to bed earlier? I do think this is a major screw up in terms of timeline if Victor really did get home after Robert allegedly called it a night. I posted below a link to a quote from a news story that Victor travels frequently for business. Just CRAZY to think Victor got home afterward and the “intruder” would be able to do all he had to do without Victor hearing him (or “run into” him!).
Bea: I have been following this blog since early January and I believe that since that time, you are the first to discuss the possibility that Victor arrived after Robert. Where have you been these many months? Welcome!
They would have had to take smaller doses so as NOT to be incapacitated themselves. Probably inhaling as opposed to injections.
Again, I encourage anyone to look up ketamine on youtube so you can understand the effects of this drug on an individual.
Exactly what I was wondering in the above post. The inference I’m drawing from the affidavit is that the vibe was a cover-up vibe, not a sobering-up vibe (and I’d expect EMTs to be really familiar with arriving at an emergency and finding people on drugs).
I think it was just Dylan, Joe and Robert who allegedly drank water and had insipid smalltalk – again, read all together, it seems that at this time (10:30-10:45 ish) that Victor was not yet home. The language in the affidavit implies that Victor did not know Robert was staying over until he arrived home from his business trip, and of course it was relayed to the police as that he got home and Joe told him, but Robert was already in bed, so he didn’t stop in to say hello or anything. If Vic got home “unexpectedly” early from a “business trip” AFTER Robert went to bed, this shortens the time line even more than before – that was one efficient (and thoughtful) intruder! It was easier to believe when I thought Vic was already asleep when Robert arrived (though nonsensical) – now it’s just absurd.
10:30 Robert arrives
10:45 SOMETHING BEGINS and GOES AWRY
11:15ish Victor arrives home and screams
30 minutes of clean-up and getting stories straight.
I think the key is WHEN did Victor arrive home unexpectedly – there has to be some records on this, if not airline records, then business meeting witnesses, or cell phone records (“Honey, I caught the earlier flight” or “the dinner meeting ended sooner than expected”).
This has been gnawing at me all day, so need to get it out of my brain: This great post from Bea makes me wonder if Victor’s early return turns him into an “intruder” for that evening’s festivities. Although I believe Victor to be the most innocent of the three, this one has been eating at me. If a three way was consensual between Robert, Joe, and Dylan, and Victor walked in on it without knowing it was happening, he may have wondered “how long has this been going on?”
“Zaborsky is a marketing manager for Milk Processor Education Program, a group that advocates the health benefits of milk. ZABORSKY FREQUENTLY TRAVELS FOR HIS JOB.” (emphasis added).
http://legaltimes.typepad.com/blt/2008/12/price-zaborsky-and-ward-removed-from-supervision-program.html
In rereading everything, I do think I thought this whole thing wrong. Victor wasn’t expected home at all. The trio messed up during the initial interviews with this – if Victor came in AFTER Robert had gone to bed, wouldn’t he very likely have run into “the intruder” during clean-up?
Who gets home after a business trip after 10:45 pm and doesn’t at least stay up a little while to unwind, yak with the beloved, take a shower?
No, Victor arrived home, immediately went to bed with Joe, not a word to Robert, fell asleep immediately (presumably stopped to hang up his suit) and then heard a “chime” and then was “awakened” by grunting all within minutes.
Me, I need some bad late night TV or part of a novel, but then I might hear all that violence and cleaning . . .
And then somehow, from consensual sex, it turns to murder? Give me a break. Victor surely knew that Joe was advertising for a third playmate / victim, using one of his regular email accounts. I doubt Victor would have been shocked and appalled to find Joe and Dylan involved with a third.
Most likely Ward and Price planned to do this to someone, going over and over the details as jerked off. Price probably surmised that as long they found a plausible reason for the victim to be in the house (answered the ad; friend/acquaintance, perhaps neighbor), and none of them pointed the finger at each other, and they gave up as little detail as possible, they’d have a good chance of getting away with the crime. This is DC, after all.
The simplest, most likely explanation, derived from the information given by the people who knew Wone the best, was that Wone went to 1509 to catch up with his friend and save time on his commute. I don’t know whether Price offered the invitation first, or it was Wone’s suggestion that he stay over, but this is the simplest and most plausible explanation of why Wone was there.
As soon as Price and Ward realized Wone was coming over, they set their plan in motion. But my feeling is that if Wone hadn’t come over, they would have done this to some other hapless man.
I really don’t understand the need to paint the sex as consensual. It makes zero sense. Straight men can – and are – friends with gay men. I have seen this with my own eyes. My ex-husband, who doesn’t have a queer bone in his body (believe me, I checked, lol), has been good friends with a number of gay men over the years. And he’s not the only one. Is there some kind of taboo about accepting that straight men can be friends with gay men? Why is this such a difficult concept? And what justifies making the leap that Wone must have had a secret life complete with extreme sex that no one knew about? The fact that he was raped? Because he must have wanted it to happen? Because rape doesn’t happen to straight men? Seriously, WTF is the problem here?
I personally don’t think Wone was gay or that he agreed to sex. Whether or not he did, clearly he did not agree to murder, and that is the critical point. My post really attempts to get at the timeline and many having assumed that Victor arrived home from the business trip BEFORE Robert arrived, not after, which is how I read the affidavit/info now.
I’m sorry, Bea, I was reacting to the following language from Anon in Arlington’s comment:
“If a three way was consensual between Robert, Joe, and Dylan, and Victor walked in on it without knowing it was happening, he may have wondered ‘how long has this been going on?'”
But I managed to post my response in the wrong spot. I really should give the keyboard a rest after midnight.
Your speculation about the timeline is very intriguing. I think you’ve really got something there. The best lies are based on grains of truth; its a small step from Victor coming home unexpectedly to “there was an intruder.” This probably did accelerate the timeline – “finding” the body in the morning would have made more sense. In fact, I wonder if the original plan included moving some of the home electronics out, to make a robbery-gone-wrong scenario more plausible. I also wonder if they had originally planned to take a longer time committing the crime, but they cut things short because they were worried someone had heard Victor scream.
Hope that made sense. I really should leave the computer alone when its this late.
I can’t imagine that Victor would become nonplussed at the sight and/or thought of Joe having sex with Dylan and someone else. Victor condoned Joe’s extracurricular activities by allowing Joe to have a live-in sex partner other than himself. Joe was actively pursuing additional parties, as well.
I should add, however, that perhaps Victor would be nonplussed at the sight of the defendants murdering Robert. (Just clarifying myself.)
N.M. : You and I will just disagree on points – that is fine and that is expected of this dialogue. I could argue my thoughts on: American societies urge for sexual “categorization” (because that makes life so very simple); my counter thoughts on “blame the victim” of rape (and I do not want to open more of my own personal emotions on this because quite frankly, I opened my personal Pandora’s box); and that the 20 year history between Robert and Joe does not negate a level of premeditation– but I would be arguing until I was blue in the face. I need to walk away from the topic and look forward to your future insights which may or may not pursued me in cultivating different theories.
Agreed, Anon., and thank you for the gracious reply. And I really need to keep off the keyboard that late at night, I lose all my manners.
CDinDC, I just watched several K videos on YouTube. Good Lord!!!! If all (or even one) of them was on this drug, then the sex-gone-bad theory is a winner for me.
Wow.
Wow is right. One can completely understand Robert’s inability to defend himself if he were under the influence of K. But also understand Robert’s ability to scream.
I can’t imagine having 30 minutes to clean up a bloody murder scene, agree on an alibi, and clean myself up and compose myself to face the authorities. But maybe that means I wouldn’t make a good socio/psychopath so, that’s fine.
Some drugs vastly enhance one’s cleaning and housekeeping abilities. With three or four people involved, they could be quite meticulous within 30 minutes. That they initially contained almost every drop of blood on a tarp or playsheet certainly made matters much easier for them.
ohmigod. There are drugs that improve your housekeeping abilities? Where can I get some?
So Lance, when you speak of drugs, you really don’t know what you are talking about, do you?
it remains to be seen how much compusure ms. ward was able to muster at her all nighter.
I suppose somebody needs to say it every once in a while, SDI, but your schtick got tired many mses ago.
No way.
SDI rocks!
A great contributor. We love him.
Yeah, I know. I got tired of trying to tell him/her/it. Good luck with that.
hat tip to “L.”; stay fabulous.
needham and others will just have to deal with me keeping the eyes on dylan ward.
I wonder if the woman who heard the scream was any sort of sports fan. If the sWJLA sports report was the final segment of its news show that evening, did she stay tuned to learn about the Nat’s 8-6 loss to San Francisco (Tony Armas may have given up 6 earned runs in 3.2 innings, but at least HE established his alibi for any wrong-doing and sloppy performance on Swann Street), or the Orioles 2-1 loss to Seattle in a home game while suffering under 102 degree temperatures?
If she wasn’t a sports fan, the odds increase that she remembered Maureen Bunyan’s voice from the beginning of WJLA’s broadcast, and not from the tail end.
She? I must have missed something.
No you didn’t. Could also have been a he.
I was pretty sure he’s a he, until I read your comment.
Whether it’s a she or a he, that’s an interesting post, Grisham.
Perhaps the MPD should reinterview anyone involved. Stories change over time. Perhaps the neighbor might remember an extra tidbit of info like that.
This is what I currently believe regarding the main unresolved questions of this case:
• How was Robert so quickly incapacitated? (I think, it was because of Lance’s relaxing massage and Joe’s covert tranquilizing injections.)
• Why were no video or digital cameras were found on the site? (I think, because the perps had recorded and photographed their rape, and then disposed of this evidence).
• Who screamed? Was it Victor, Robert, or Sarah? (I think it was Sarah. But others who manage or visit this site might already have a better idea than I do whether or not Sarah actually has a waterproof alibi for that evening. And whether or not her sleep-over hosts “Tom and John” do as well.)
• Why three exact, ritualistic stabs? (I think Dylan executed them, while Joe and Victor also gripped the knife with their hands, so as to collectively bond them to a common fate).
• How were massive amounts of evidence so efficiently disposed? Did Sarah, Michael or Louis handle this? (Again, I think this was Sarah’s doing. Until someone can assure me she has an air-tight alibi.)
• A long shot. Might Dylan have also murdered two other people in West Palm Beach while acting out a similar fetish?
I’ve gone from “one of the three suspects or their legal team” to “there and giving a massage”? Wow.
OK, but more seriously:
As opposed to, say, deleting the pics/video?
“Ritualistic”?
Whoa. Where did that come from?
My apologies. I keep on getting Lance and Dilbert mixed up.
Grisham, digi cameras WERE found on the site. Refer to the search warrants documentation. It lists what was removed from each site.
Grisham, just reviewed the search warrant docs again…..looks like one disposable digital camera was removed. Nothing else. I guess it is kinda strange that there wasn’t another camera around. 3 people in the house and one disposable digital camera. Especially, a person that claims to be into erotic photography.
Lance says: “I’ve gone from “one of the three suspects or their legal team” to “there and giving a massage”? Wow.”
LMAO
I would think someone like the cat torturer would have disposed of evidence in exchange for access to the photos / video.
Someone should be combing through various videos / pics to see if anyone resembles Mr. Wone – to see if any pictorial evidence has washed up in various circuits. But I’m sure that’s the last thing the police would consider doing.
Maybe the legal team on the civil case can hire someone to swim in those sewers.
The thought of pictures being circulated of poor Robert Wone in that condition just makes me shudder.
On the one hand its beyond horrible; on the other its “merely an image” reflecting something horrible. Depends on where you stand in the absolutist free speech / restrict access to certain materials debate.
Several of the images at the link one of the posters shared a while back – if you recall – could easily have featured non-consenting individuals. There is no way to tell from many of the pictures who the bottom is, whether he’s conscious, whether he consented – particularly when the pics are close ups on body parts.
We just assume, because the pics are presented as porn, that they must be legit. But some of the same pics could just as easily be offered as records of a horrible criminal act.
Of course for some people – including our murderers – its six of one, half dozen of the other.
I feel like the chances of pictures of Wone circulating as porn are roughly zero, much like the lack of any real snuff films.
I would think that kind of thing is WAAAAY underground.
Although, child pornography, which is just as criminal, can be had if someone is willing to take a chance and go in the “right” chatroom or file sharing site.
Killers are known to keep trophies of their crimes.
In a double jeopardy case at the link below, a man named Mel Ignatow committed murder and was acquitted. In the second link, the new owner of the house Ignatow had been living in at the time of the murder found the photographic evidence.
Price appears to have any number of residences where photos or other trophies could be well hidden.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/01/25/48hours/murder/main325643.shtml
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/01/25/48hours/main325645.shtml
Killers frequently keep trophies of their crimes.
In a double jeopardy case at the link below, a man named Mel Ignatow committed murder and was acquitted. In the second link, some time later the new owner of the house Ignatow had been living in at the time of the murder the found photographic evidence.
Price appears to have any number of residences where photos or other trophies could be well hidden.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/01/25/48hours/main325645.shtml
Killers frequently keep trophies of their crimes.
In a double jeopardy case at the link below, a man named Mel Ignatow committed murder and was acquitted. In the second link, some time later the new owner of the house Ignatow had been living in at the time of the murder the found photographic evidence.
Price appears to have any number of residences where photos or other trophies could be well hidden.
*Sorry, links aren’t going through, but they’re at CBS.com
– Editors, how do I post links? Thanks.
The Mel Ignatow case is significant case law regarding double jeopardy. Because the photos were found after he had been acquitted of the murder charge, the prosecution could not retry him due to double jeopardy. He confessed to the murder because he knew he couldn’t be tried for it. He ended up being tried for perjury and spent time in jail.
Re: the erection post-killing:
Definitely interesting and Not too far-fetched considering that some serial killers get off on the act of killing. They are re-living the fantasy and that is how they achieve their sexual release.
Joe isn’t a serial killer, but with his “hole in the soul”, he looked at Wone and relived whatever twisted fantasy for a moment…