Say It Ain’t So, Joe
From the comments sections earlier this week, a friend of Joe Price’s checks in:
I was friends with Joe Price a decade ago, when he was in law school. We haven’t stayed in touch, and I just learned about this horrible case today, but I have to say that I’m absolutely shocked by this, and that the only thing that’s more difficult to imagine, knowing Joe, than that he’d participate in rape is that he’d participate in a murder, and more unthinkable than that is that he’d participate in a sloppy murder (Joe is a smart, sharp guy and the most fastidious man I’ve ever met – I can see how some people here could doubt the story about Joe going outside to remove a spider he spotted on a light, but knowing Joe, it sounds plausible to me.It’s the sort of thing we used to rib him about.)
More preposterous than that is that he’d do anything harmful to a friend – the people who collected around Joe were always bright, generous people – I never met Mr. Wone, but the praise that people have for him could apply to any of the people I met through Joe, and they collected around Joe for a reason, because he’s one of them.
But even if I could believe all of those things about him, I would never, ever, ever in a million years believe that he would call his brother and ask for help.
-posted by the editors
As anyone who has followed crime stories can attest, sometimes you can never tell who’s going to flip out and do something totally out of character. There are plenty of convicted criminals who seemed well-educated and “normal” but out of nowhere did something wrong. Look at murderers like OJ, Scott Peterson, Ted Bundy, BTK strangler, men who kill their ex-girlfriends or ex-wives, etc. These people had jobs, appeared normal, and managed to make some people like them. Some people still support OJ, and Scott Peterson’s mom still thinks he’s not guilty. I would like to ask this former classmate of Joe’s how well he or she knew Joe. Did s/he know that Joe was into S&M and drugs? For the record, I don’t think Joe killed Robert, but he covered up the murder.
Why would Price cover up the murder?
How could anyone think that was the right choice?
I knew him fairly well, his roommate and I were and have remained very close friends, and spent enough time with them to get a view into Joe’s personal/domestic habits at the time. No, there weren’t any drugs that I knew of, and as for S&M, unless you count celibacy as a variety of masochism, there wasn’t any of that going on either. Lot of studying. Even when he was clerking and the pressure was off, he spent at least as many weekend nights at home hanging out with friends (straight friends at that) playing cards as he did with dates. There was a long-distance boyfriend who visited once or twice a month, and if Joe was cruising for anybody else he was quiet about it. Joe was very domestic, even talking about his ideas about raising kids. And he’s a smart guy, smart as they come, and organized, collected, imperturbable.
I appreciate that people change, but they do not turn complete 180’s. Joe might snap – anybody might snap – but there’s no way that he’d suddenly get stupid, and cleaning up the blood, switching knives, etc, is purposeless and stupid. I don’t buy the idea that he might have done something stupid because he was on drugs at the time – meth doesn’t wear off that fast, and had the police suspected that any of the guys was on it when they were questioned that evening, there would have been drug tests ordered. And the theory that he might have called his brother for help getting rid of evidence is the most preposterous part of all – even if everything else was consistent with Joe’s character, which I don’t believe it is – that part of the theory of the case that was on the earlier blog entry is so unlikely the rest seems plausible by comparison. When I knew him, Joe wouldn’t have relied on his brother for help moving a couch, let alone disposing of evidence, and compared to the reports about Mike now, the Mike I met then was a paragon of sober responsibility.
you drank too much cool-aid, my friend. tell us about dylan ward? how would you describe his influence? a 180 turn need not happen overnight, but it is possible over a decade. what type of anti-depressants was joe on when you knew him?
“…there weren’t any drugs that I knew of, and as for S&M, unless you count celibacy as a variety of masochism, there wasn’t any of that going on either.”
The affidavit for the arrest offers declarative facts regarding both drugs and BDSM relationships.
“…had the police suspected that any of the guys was on it when they were questioned that evening, there would have been drug tests ordered.”
Wrong. Police don’t just order drug tests for all persons they are questioning. They can ask, but persons of interest who are highly lawyered up are well positioned to refuse.
The question was regarding any drug use Joe might have been engaging in ten years ago, when I knew him. And the affadavit for the arrest says that they’re sure that Joe has possessed drugs at some point. I think it’s safe to say that in any demographic you’d care to name above the age of twelve a large proportion of that demographic has possessed drugs at some point. The only drug found in the house was a single ecstasy tablet in Ward’s room, so these are guys who certainly have experimented, but don’t keep much of anything exciting medicine cabinets. If Ward did, as has been suggested, use ruhypnol on Wone, it was the only dose of it he had because police didn’t report finding any in the house (there are also no reports of finding residue of the drug in any glassware Wone might have used that night). As for the BDSM, the question was, again, in regard to the period ten years ago when I knew Joe. I never saw or heard anything then to suggest that he was into that. As a matter of fact, based on the few “have you tried” conversations that we had, my impression then was that Joe’s level of kink was mild at best. Still waters run deep, I suppose.
As for the question of drug use on the night of the murder, if you think the police can’t get a warrant for a drug test if they suspect that the subjects they’re questioning about a murder are high… I’m going to assume that you’re joking. Even if they had “lawyered up” by then, there’s not much a lawyer can do to contest a warrant like that, and anyway, the court documents said that the three were questioned for three days before they asked for lawyers.
To sum up, you knew Joe Price a decade ago, and he didn’t seem to be into heavy kink then. Irrelevant today, given the facts in the arresting affidavit.
You also offer conjecture on whether the police should have drug tested the three, I suppose in support of your earlier assertion: “I don’t buy the idea that he might have done something stupid because he was on drugs at the time.”
Let’s assume Price’s actions were not motivated specifically by a drugged state. Fine, then it makes his actions — and worse yet, his inaction in helping Wone — even more disturbing. From the affidavit:
“…the three residents of 1509 Swann Street delayed their call to the authorities for an extended period of time, as evidenced by, among other things, a gap in time from as little as 19 minutes or as many as 49 minutes between time the scream was heard by W3 and the time Zaborsky placed the call to 9-1-1. Indeed, the evidence suggests that the scream came not from Mr. Wone, who was already incapacitated at the time he was stabbed, but rather from Zaborsky, who admitted to police that he screamed upon seeing Robert’s body. The significant delay in reporting is further demonstrated by the fact that Mr. Wone actively digested his own blood for a significant period of time after he had been stabbed.” [Page 12]
And.. what about the idea that the three guys got rid of a bunch of evidence and cleaned up before the police arrived. There was plenty of time for them to gather up their drugs and flush them away or get rid of them before the home was searched.
How dare you, Nelly? Don’t you know that stuff happened well after ANo’s interactions with Mr. Price ten years ago? Let’s stay focused! lol
First I want to thank the guys who started this site. I’ve been very interested in this tragic mystery from the beginning and blogged about it several times. I’m glad to see others keeping the information flowing and not letting this get swept under the rug.
Lately I’ve been thinking about the three stab wounds, and someone’s suggestion that the three of them made some kind of horrible pact, each stabbing Wone once so no one could say they did not participate in the murder. Hence no one (Zaborsky being the most likely, you would think) could break from the others and cut a deal. You can almost imagine the three of them still telling each other ‘as long as no one talks, they can’t get us.’ I can certainly seeing Ward making the other two cooperate, with Price executing the cleanup plan using his legal experience. That includes switching the knives, since the apparent actual murder weapon was from a knife set in Ward’s room, and that would be way too damning.
I do not believe the idea that each of the three stabbed Robert as part of a pact, after they thought he was dead already from a drug overdose. He was really still alive for a while after being stabbed, and didn’t the EMTs note that at least once of the wounds was so big that you could fit a finger into it? That doesn’t sound like the type of damage an unwilling person would make. Looks more like a purposeful stabbing out of a desire to kill, rather than merely to cover up.
Hi. I’m the one who thought up the three stab wounds + three men = pact thing.
I think they knew Ward was still alive, but they wanted to finish him off. If he survived, he would certainly have pressed charges for rape, etc.
The dynamic, as I see it, is:
Ward and Price had been fantasizing about raping a young Asian man for a long time. Perhaps Mr. Wone was already an object of Mr. Price’s fantasy life, and when Mr. Wone called to see if he could stay overnight, Price saw his chance to finally act on his desires.
But of course the scenario had to include Ward, who- as the dominant in the relationship – would have to ‘punish’ Price for his desires. What better way to accomplish all this than for Ward to ‘punish’ Price by ‘commanding’ Price to abuse the object of his desire (Mr. Wone).
And I do mean object – when you think this way, Mr. Wone becomes an object you use to get off, not a human being with whom you’ve had a long friendship. Just like the people they see in extreme porn, who might very well have been raped for real; its not real human beings, they’re just images they use to jack off.
So Ward ‘orders’ Price to go along with the rape scenario. One or the other of them drugs Wone (obviously Wone would not have consented to be part of this crazy shit); the two of them rape him; then one of them – probably Price – comes back to his senses and realizes that if Mr. Wone wakes up, he’s going to press charges. Mr. Wone is a human being again – and a threatening human being at that, since he could put both Price and Ward in jail.
So Price and/or Ward realize Mr. Wone has to die. Price remembers the law school brain teaser about three men and a cop standing in a room with a loaded gun; the cop walks out the door and while he’s gone, one man is shot; afterwards no one can prove who did it because neither man will testify, so it can’t be proved beyond a reasonable doubt which of the men committed the crime (only one of them could have pulled the trigger). (I don’t recall where I read that this is a sort-of-common law school thought exercise, sorry).
At some point Zaborsky discovers the situation, lets out the scream/grunt heard by the neighbor at 1511, and goes into a sort of shock. Price and/or Ward realize that its no longer a matter of the two of them committing to not testify against the other, that Zaborsky must be roped in too – and while Zaborsky is loyal to Price, he’s not so loyal to Ward (note comment by Zaborsky in the affidavit about Ward not being an “equal partner” in the relationship).
So Price appeals to Zaborsky to show his love and loyalty by becoming an equal partner in the crime. Each man takes the knife and stabs Wone once, in a cold, dispassionate, way.
Not only has Zaborsky now participated in killing Mr. Wone, but he has witnessed his lover Price killing Mr. Wone. No way can Zaborsky give testimony without incriminating himself, or perhaps more painful to him, incriminating Price.
Then Price – who, as his friends have noted, is fastidious to the point of freakishness — sets about ‘cleaning’ the crime scene, while Ward or Zaborsky nips out the back door, out the back gate, walks west a few houses down the alley between Swann and T, and drops the knife down the big drain (which perpetually has standing, watery black muck at the bottom. No way can you see anything that’s dropped down there, and I’d bet real money the cops didn’t search there).
After they’re done cleaning and staging the scene, they call 911. By this time Price – the lawyer – was able to convince them that there was no way they would face charges so long as they didn’t talk. They’ve had time to calm down; the adrenaline wearing off and the emotional and physical drain gives them the cool, laconic aspect the paramedics found so unnerving.
But to me, the real mystery is this: why the three of them have not been charged with manslaughter, criminal neglect, accessory after the fact, or something like that because none of them called for medical help right away, despite the obviously grievous injuries to the victim.
Maybe they’re not being charged with murder now so that later on, when one of them cracks, they can be charged without tripping double jeopardy.
A lot of this sounds (creepily) plausible to me, though it is especially troubling to think that Price could be made to do these things to Wone, who had been a ‘good friend’ for many years.
I still find the reasoning behind Wone’s staying over because he was ‘working late’ to be a little shaky. It wasn’t all that late.
I don’t find it shaky at all. It wasn’t that late when Wone arrived, but his commute home would have been lengthy (I forget the amount of time) and then he’d have had to turn around and commute back in early in the morning. I think its totally plausible that he thought – hey, I know someone who lives nearby, and I’ve been meaning to catch up with him for a long time, see his new place, etc. I’m excited about my new gig, and what a perfect opportunity to see my old friend. It would have seemed serendipitous.
Also, I look at it this way – I live very close to 1509. Its entirely plausible to me that one day, if my partner – a man – was outside sweeping leaves or something, and the neighbor – say, Ward or Price – called over to my partner to ask if he could give him a hand moving a piece of furniture, “it’ll only take minute,” my partner would go do it — go over there, walk inside with, say, Ward or Price, and let the door close behind him. My partner wouldn’t care one whit about them being gay, or anything. It would just be the neighborly thing to do.
In this scenario, my partner could have been the victim this crime. And people speculating about the case would have said – oh, sure, the girlfriend says he’s straight, but you know how it is…. why was he really over there… they probably had something going on… etc. etc.
And it wouldn’t have been true.
So I feel no need to speculate about a sexual relationship between Wone and any resident of 1509. There’s no evidence that there was one.
And to put it simply, I believe Mrs. Wone. If her husband had been up to anything illicit, I believe she would said so. And if she were so ashamed that she wouldn’t admit that she suspected something illicit, surely she wouldn’t still be digging for the truth of what happened.
I agree with you, it bothers me to no end that Wone went over there, trusting his friend. He thought Price was his friend. How cruel. How insufferably cruel.
In this scenario, my partner could have been the victim this crime. And people speculating about the case would have said – oh, sure, the girlfriend says he’s straight, but you know how it is…. why was he really over there… they probably had something going on… etc. etc.
And it wouldn’t have been true.
I don’t know that I would be inclined to think that about the situation you describe. There is, of course, a difference between an overnight stay planned weeks in advance (which is absolutely something married people do when doing SM on the side – I’ve been the other person in that scenario, and I recognize the logic) when you live 20 minutes (I believe I saw someone say that was roughly the amount of time away his home was, though I may be remembering incorrectly – God knows my experience of DC involved every trip taking at least that long) and helping someone move a couch for ten minutes.
So I feel no need to speculate about a sexual relationship between Wone and any resident of 1509. There’s no evidence that there was one. And to put it simply, I believe Mrs. Wone. If her husband had been up to anything illicit, I believe she would said so. And if she were so ashamed that she wouldn’t admit that she suspected something illicit, surely she wouldn’t still be digging for the truth of what happened.
I think the reasons given for staying at their house are odd. Moreover, planning it in advance was strange as well. I don’t think that adds up.
I think she may honestly not have known and believes/hopes the case will set the record straight and absolve him from having been engaging in extramarital play. What a horrible shock and unfortunate circumstance this whole situation must have been. I don’t think she would be inclined to publicly say, “Oh, yes, he must have been planning to play and/or have sex with one or two of these men when this happened.” Why would she? I can’t even imagine wrapping my brain around that as the wife of this person.
That said, this whole thing gave me horrible flashbacks to playing with an older married gentleman when I was younger and how fucked my life would have been if something had happened to him during play. I know he had made the decision to play (no sex, however) outside of his marriage for several reasons, but one of which was that his tendency towards SM was something she found genuinely disturbing/unpleasant and he didn’t want to inflict upon her. Dating someone vanilla now, I can see how he felt, even if I wouldn’t make the same choices he did.
ROSE
Forgive me but I am not sure that
I understand all of your points.
For starters, I do not know your
gender which has made some of
the comparative characterization
of partnerships confusing to me.
In any event, you appear to be
contradicting yourself.
First, you speak of a closeted
Wone visiting his friends Price
and Ward for a little S&M sex,
then say that you feel no need to
speculate about his sexuality?
I have repeatedly stated my belief
that Robert was Straight and that
I think Kathy has nothing to hide.
She and I may be wrong, but in
final analysis it matters not.
You question nature and reasons
for Wone’s overnight stay. I have
likewise expressed consternation
about this same matter. Indeed,
it has been most puzzling part of
the whole troubling case for me.
However, it is quite common for
people to plan such an advance
visit and it was very much in
character for Wone to do so.
Fact that others or you may wait
until the last minute to plan your
encounters is irrelevant here.
If Robert was planning to engage
in some extra-curricular activities
outside of his public persona, he
would have best been advised to
do so with other than friends
mutual to himself and his wife.
Among the things which Robert
was not is stupid.
Except from some real “psychos,”
most people do not want sexual
or nonsexual playmates to wind
up dead — if for no other reason
than their own self preservation.
And I believe that was the case
here as well. It just did not turn
out that way. Deadly for Wone;
unlucky for Zaborsky, Price &
Ward; sad for his community;
tragic for his wife, family, friends.
Ah, I’m sorry – I suppose my response to the comment above me was unclear – I was attempting to respond by quoting. I put the comments made by the person above me in italics, so that I am in regular type, and the italics are quotes to which I was responding.
I do not live in DC, I did not know any of the people involved, and can’t speak to their motives because of that. I am only commenting on how I (as someone who is queer, polyamorous, and a wayward SM practitioner) view the behavior described in this case.
I suppose closeted applied to what I said above, but it’s worth noting that choosing to play with men wouldn’t absolutely have to mean he was gay, even if he was closeted about his interest in SM. People sometimes play with people other than the gender they traditionally are sexually attracted to.
In regards to the wisdom of choosing to play with mutual friends, I only say that the ability to talk about things you are interested in with a party that knows things about it can be incredibly freeing. So it might have come about via knowing they were into that, rather than a well-thought out choice. But again, only a possibility. I will respond to the next post, but will have to do it later tonight.
rose, many people when they first venture onto this website are inclined to believe something fishy about Robert’s choice to stay overnight at his old friend’s house.
all I can say is read the hundreds of postings on this site, go to youtube and watch the eulogies at his service, and then sit back and think about the man, Robert Wone. You’ll come to realize that Robert Wone was a man of integrity and substance. It was far beyond Robert Wone’s personality to backslide and cheat on his wife.
Robert’s decision to stay at his friend’s house was clear and simple. He worked very late after a very long arduous day. No transportation would take him directly home and his wife would have had to pick him up very late at a desolate, empty subway stop out in the suburbs.
It’s really not hard to understand.
CDINDC
Though I can see why
one might question
Wone’s decision to stay
over at anybody’s home
given lawyers frequently
have to work late as I
should think he would
have done at Covington,
I agree with your genl
characterization of
Robert and conclusions
attendant thereto.
ROSE
Thanks for the clarify. The
fact that I live in DC does
not mean that I am any
closer to the motives of the
participants than are you.
Though like yourself I am
queer and have been active
in the Bisexual community
my kn0wledge of S&M is
admittedly limited.
However, I understand
about attractions not
always being consistent
with one’s officially
designated orientation.
I am aware of at least the
desirability if not need for
negotiation in S&M rels.
Thus, I can see the benefit
of familiarity in that sense.
That being said, I remain
persuaded that Robert was
Straight. But since I go by
evidence not preconception
my determination could be
changed in the future.
The dynamic, as I see it, is: Ward and Price had been fantasizing about raping a young Asian man for a long time. Perhaps Mr. Wone was already an object of Mr. Price’s fantasy life, and when Mr. Wone called to see if he could stay overnight, Price saw his chance to finally act on his desires. But of course the scenario had to include Ward, who- as the dominant in the relationship – would have to ‘punish’ Price for his desires. What better way to accomplish all this than for Ward to ‘punish’ Price by ‘commanding’ Price to abuse the object of his desire (Mr. Wone). And I do mean object – when you think this way, Mr. Wone becomes an object you use to get off, not a human being with whom you’ve had a long friendship. Just like the people they see in extreme porn, who might very well have been raped for real; its not real human beings, they’re just images they use to jack off. So Ward ‘orders’ Price to go along with the rape scenario. One or the other of them drugs Wone (obviously Wone would not have consented to be part of this crazy shit); the two of them rape him; then one of them – probably Price – comes back to his senses and realizes that if Mr. Wone wakes up, he’s going to press charges. Mr. Wone is a human being again – and a threatening human being at that, since he could put both Price and Ward in jail.
I suspect you don’t know any SM practitioners in real life. I don’t say this to be bitchy or difficult, but I don’t think anything about this scenario you propose sounds remotely true to life. It sounds like how Hollywood would conceive of a plot. I’m surprised how few people are reading this the way I am: like a playdate set up weeks in advance (according to the WP – he was staying late to meet the night shift? Strange.) where something went amazingly wrong, and instead of dealing with it appropriately and ethically (which would, unfortunately, have ended up with outing him to his wife and exposing them to jailtime, but still HAD to be done in this situation), the people involved freaked out, ended up killing someone and trying to cover it up. In the end, an incredibly tragic and useless death that didn’t have to happen.
This is just my reading of the situation, but it seems far more realistic than the concept of them seeking out someone to rape, particularly the idea that they had a rape fantasy based on a specific minority that they hadn’t seemed to seek out as a partner already. I mean, there are exceptions, yes, but I think people who seek out heavy SM play with others are less likely to be prone to acts like rape, which often seems to come about out of a confused desire for power and inability to address sexual desire in a healthy manner, while SM requires so much negotiation and thought that you’ve had to learn how to talk about what you want….just my opinion, of course.
So Price appeals to Zaborsky to show his love and loyalty by becoming an equal partner in the crime. Each man takes the knife and stabs Wone once, in a cold, dispassionate, way.
The chances of that happening in a manner that allowed for no change of angle despite multiple changes of hand strike me as unusually small.
ROSE
I do not know to which of my comments
you were responding, but my views are
based upon what is widely regarded as
my extremely powerful insight into
human relations not Hollywood.
I disagree with you about both Price &
and Ward having Asian rape fanatasies.
I think that Price had a Wone fantasy
and Ward an an Asian fantasy.
Ultimately, Price and Ward’s respective
fantasies would combine with their
S&M relationship in a deadly way.
I may not know as much about the S&M
community as do you, but I suspect that
you are not as familiar with the Gay
Asian community as am I.
Not only am I student of Asian affairs
in general, friend of many Gay Asians
and for most part had Asian boyfriends,
I have been asked to lecture on subject.
The aforementioned does not make me
right about anything, but it does make
me knowledgable in an informed way
not unlike your being more informed
about the S&M community than I.
The GAM and Rice community is small –
– very small. Asians constitute only 5%
of the American population. GAM are
probably not more than 3% of that 5%.
For example: when I walk into a Gay
dance club such as Apex or Town, there
may be 300 participants of whom less
than a dozen are Asian on any given
night. And I know virtually all of them —
at least by sight if not in other ways.
Though Robert’s decison to sleep over
has caused me great consternation, I
agree with the overwhelming majority
who do not believe Robert to be Gay.
Had Robert been so, it would have been
very difficult to keep it a secret — not
just from Kathy but from everybody.
If true: it would be good to know for
the ultimate benefit of all in resolution
of this terrible, tortured, tragic murder.
For many reasons — including numbers
— being closeted in GAM community is
not the same as being “down low” in the
Black community. It manifests itself in
a different way. I won’t bore you with
the details — scholarly and anecdotal.
The objectification of objects of desire
is well documented in all communities –
– heterosexual, homosexual, porno,
S&M. The fetishism of the exotic
Oriental has a long history.
Agree with you that Robert was drugged
against his will. Though I do not know
by whom, my suspicion is that it would
be Ward the “obedient” dominant,
possibly at the direction of Price
the “commanding” subordinate.
Agree with you also Robert was killed on account of Price and Ward fear of
exposure. One of my scenarios closely tracks your hypothesis that Wone awoke from a drugged stupor.
My two primary alternatives are that
Price and Ward believed either Wone
was alive when dead or dead when alive.
Based upon the analysis of my medical
doctor friends, I have come to believe
more and more that Robert was dead.
Stabbing of a Wone who had ODed on
ketamine would have resulted in a
minimal loss of blood which my MD
friends believe to be case, would have
reduced clean up of blood and better fit
within a timeline which was limited no
matter who or what one believes else.
For one, I never posited that Price and
Ward were in search of any “old” rape
victim though some have claimed that
there is evidence that Joseph and Dylan
were trolling sites for a 3rd playmate.
Given Ward’s Asian fetish, I do not find
hard to believe that he would seek out
online an Asian into S&M, etc.
FYI: I am in contact with several such
persons; some are even into rape
fantasies!
Though admittedly I do not know a/m/a
S&M as you appear, I am surprised to know that you have never heard of rape fantasy as part of an S&M role play.
Furthermore, it is frequently the sub
who instructs the dom about that to
which the sub wishes to be subject.
Given what the coroner described as the
“methodical” nature of the stab wounds
a/w/a my own reading of the forensic
evidence, I find it hard to believe that
Wone was stabbed by more than one.
Those such as yourself who posit three-
way “bound to conspiracy” theory of the
stabbing sound much more Hollywood
than the scenario proposed by myself.
Indeed, there are movies like this!
Your indie scenario may be less Holly
than mine, but I think it is also further
away from the truth of the incident
(of course, this is just an opinion).
Thanks for the input. I look forward to
our continuing the conversation and
educating one another from our own
respective peculiar perspectives.
Oh, so much miscommunication. Sorry about the confusion – I’m not a commenter – I was a USENET user back in the day and I am still prone to quoting and formatting for that medium, which is harder to work out in comments on a website. My formatting intent now is that whatever I am responding to is in italics, labeled with who said it. My comments are in regular type.
Robert said: I disagree with you about both Price & and Ward having Asian rape fanatasies. I think that Price had a Wone fantasy and Ward an an Asian fantasy.
I wasn’t saying they had Asian rape fantasies. I know nothing about these particular men aside from what I’ve gathered from articles, so you may have knowledge beyond mine here.
Robert said: I may not know as much about the S&M community as do you, but I suspect that you are not as familiar with the Gay Asian community as am I.
I know that is true. I know virtually nothing about the Gay Asian community, other than having dated people frustrated by how small it was, trying to navigate/find it in China and Japan. So, agreed, you are absolutely the authority on this.
Robert said: Though Robert’s decison to sleep over has caused me great consternation, I agree with the overwhelming majority who do not believe Robert to be Gay.
I don’t know. I don’t think being there to play automatically makes him gay or even actually bi. Look, I dislike that I feel like the logical answer here involves people being so uncaring and untrustworthy with a partner as to kill them rather than do what they were obligated to and call paramedics/take him to a hospital, and I hate that my suspicion falls on the SM activities of these people – it’s not what I want the answer to be, believe me. As it is, since I stumbled across this case via a feed that tracks media mentions of polyamory, I can’t get it out of my head. I feel wrecked for Mr. Wone and his wife and indeed, his whole community.
Robert said: If true: it would be good to know for
the ultimate benefit of all in resolution
of this terrible, tortured, tragic murder.
It’s the only reason I commented – it seems others don’t feel the way I do and I just wanted to offer up another opinion.
Robert said: For many reasons — including numbers — being closeted in GAM community is not the same as being “down low” in the Black community. It manifests itself in a different way. I won’t bore you with the details — scholarly and anecdotal.
No, it’s entirely different, even I, with only the vaguest understanding of the GAM community, understand that.
Robert said: The objectification of objects of desire
is well documented in all communities — heterosexual, homosexual, porno,
S&M. The fetishism of the exotic
Oriental has a long history.
Again, absolutely in agreement. Whoa, the Asian fetish is everpresent in our society.
Robert said: Agree with you that Robert was drugged against his will. Though I do not know by whom, my suspicion is that it would be Ward the “obedient” dominant, possibly at the direction of Price the “commanding” subordinate. Agree with you also Robert was killed on account of Price and Ward fear of
exposure. One of my scenarios closely tracks your hypothesis that Wone awoke from a drugged stupor.
Ah, the drugging against his will was not my belief. Another case of crossed communication. I do believe the second part you state, however, about it being a fear of consequences for the lack of appropriate possibly lifesaving measures instead of the covering up the murder.
Robert said: My two primary alternatives are that
Price and Ward believed either Wone
was alive when dead or dead when alive.
I do think this is very possible.
Robert said: Based upon the analysis of my medical doctor friends, I have come to believe
more and more that Robert was dead.
Stabbing of a Wone who had ODed on
ketamine would have resulted in a
minimal loss of blood which my MD
friends believe to be case, would have
reduced clean up of blood and better fit
within a timeline which was limited no
matter who or what one believes else.
Hmm. Interesting.
Robert said: For one, I never posited that Price and Ward were in search of any “old” rape victim though some have claimed that there is evidence that Joseph and Dylan were trolling sites for a 3rd playmate. Given Ward’s Asian fetish, I do not find hard to believe that he would seek out
online an Asian into S&M, etc.
Being new to this case, you have me at a disadvantage – this is the second time you’ve mentioned Ward as having an Asian fetish – is this related to his profile online? I’m new here and clearly operating entirely on guesswork.
Robert said: FYI: I am in contact with several such persons; some are even into rape fantasies! Though admittedly I do not know a/m/a S&M as you appear, I am surprised to know that you have never heard of rape fantasy as part of an S&M role play. Furthermore, it is frequently the sub
who instructs the dom about that to
which the sub wishes to be subject.
Oh, nonono. You’ve taken away exactly the opposite point I was trying for. I’m horrible at communication sometimes. I’m not suggesting in any way that rape fantasy/consent play/whatever you want to call it doesn’t exist. What I think is VERY important to be clear on is that rape fantasy/play is completely different from rape. The power dynamics of rape/assault are the opposite from the power dynamics of anyone engaging in consent play or, in fact, any SM. It deeply irks me to see people suggesting that a rape *fantasy* is in anyway logically going to transition to an actual sexual assault or rape. Those are hugely different things, and again, I feel that anybody likely to be able to address that fantasy via play in a safe constructive manner is significantly less likely to be involved in any sort of attack.
Robert said:
Given what the coroner described as the “methodical” nature of the stab wounds a/w/a my own reading of the forensic evidence, I find it hard to believe that Wone was stabbed by more than one. Those such as yourself who posit three-way “bound to conspiracy” theory of the stabbing sound much more Hollywood than the scenario proposed by myself. Indeed, there are movies like this!
Oh, no – I wasn’t saying I believed that – I was responding to the person (N.M, I believe was the poster) who did and saying I thought it was exceptionally UNlikely that that was true.
Robert said: Your indie scenario may be less Holly than mine, but I think it is also further away from the truth of the incident (of course, this is just an opinion).
Fair enough. I suspect that you are more familiar with the area and possibly some of the people involved.
Robert said: Thanks for the input. I look forward to
our continuing the conversation and
educating one another from our own
respective peculiar perspectives.
Thanks for the feedback – I’ve felt somewhat sick since I read about this case and am finding it hard to get out of my mind. Such a waste of a life, particularly someone who seemed to be so active and into doing good work.
Rose says: “I hate that my suspicion falls on the SM activities of these people ”
Rose, the SM proclivities of Joe/Dylan came forward due to the Medical Examiner’s belief that Robert was sexually assault/”tortured”. Not because there were SM sex toys in the house.
If they were artists and Robert had blue paint on his body, they’d conjecture that their art proclivities had something to do with his murder.
It’s not because THEY are SM participants. It’s because they found EVIDENCE of such.
ROSE
Thanks so much for the education
about S&M aspects of this case.
There has been made mention of
Ward having an Oriental fetish.
Indeed some Asian bloggers and
reporters have commented on it.
I took it at face value tho have
not seen all the evidence for this.
If so, it might explain in part why
he taught ESL in Taiwan/Japan &
studied massage therapy in Siam.
However, it could also be that his
stays in those countries affected
his sexual interests & attractions.
Above should not be interpreteted
to say that there is direct connect
between ESL , foreign travel or
foreign study and fetishizing.
I am aware of the difference in
power dynamics btw rape fantasy
and actual rape. Nevertheless, I
found helpful your experiential
perspective in getting better and
more thorough understanding.
I like to think that all would be
saddened by any loss, but agree
that this one is made all the more
difficult on account of Robert’s
kind, gentle and charitable nature.
Regret I am not as technically
adept as are you — else I would
employ your italicized format.
A planned playdate for a new, semi-covert trouple? No.
I hate to be bitchy or difficult, too, but that just does NOT go along with Kathy lovingly packing Robert’s bag with his mouthguard. And, in your imaginary scenario, rose, this date was going to be Robert’s first BDSM time? Because his other “playdates” just have not come out of the woodwork yet? Or, just maybe, because they do not and would not exist, at least not in this time and space continuum.
Here is a news flash to the geographically challenged: the night staff on a radio station that caters to Asia would be the day staff at the improbably-named WTOP. Why? When it is day in Singapore, it is night here, and vice versa. Hope that helps!
CLIO
Thanks. Whew! Thought I was “out”
there all alone for a moment. . . .
I agree with everything you stated
above and thanks for informing all
of that which I forgot regarding time
differences between East and West.
I gather also that you agree with me
about the unliklihood of Wone being
Gay in a world where not everybody
keeps quiet about sexual liasons —
especially when it could make them
famous and possibly even rich from
a reward for information leading to
arrest and conviction of the right
PRICE.
Robert said: (I gather also that you agree with me
about the unliklihood of Wone being Gay in a world where not everybody keeps quiet about sexual liasons — especially when it could make them famous and possibly even rich from a reward for information leading to arrest and conviction of the right PRICE.)
Well, that might be why you would play with friends – if you trusted them to keep quiet.
Clio said:
<>
No, I get that. *rolls eyes* That’s not what I was questioning. I only question the concept of staying overnight somewhere when you were done by 10:30.
Clio said: <>
Trouple? I made no claim who or how many people he was playing with. I don’t even say that he was definitively playing. I simply say that the behavior seems strange to someone who doesn’t know the people involved.
Clio said: <>
I know he had a mouth-guard as part of his night-time routine – I didn’t know she packed it for him. I don’t think that inherently changes the circumstance, though.
<>
No, I have no idea what he might have done before or if he’d played with anyone in the house before. I simply suggest that people have been strangely focused on the idea of a brutal sexual assault when the circumstances are such that I believe the scenario could easily go the other way. Regardless, we can’t know.
Did I read somewhere that one of the people involved in this site had tracked down an alt.com profile for one or more of the people involved? I’m quite curious about that.
Wow, that formatting did not work better.
Clio said: (Here is a news flash to the geographically challenged: the night staff on a radio station that caters to Asia would be the day staff at the improbably-named WTOP. Why? When it is day in Singapore, it is night here, and vice versa. Hope that helps!)
No, I get that. *rolls eyes* That’s not what I was questioning – meeting the staff is reasonable. I only question the concept of staying overnight somewhere when you were done by 10:30. It’s not exceptionally late.
Clio said: (A planned playdate for a new, semi-covert trouple? No.)
Trouple? I made no claim who or how many people he was playing with. I don’t even say that he was definitively playing. I simply say that the behavior seems strange to someone who doesn’t know the people involved.
Clio said: (I hate to be bitchy or difficult, too, but that just does NOT go along with Kathy lovingly packing Robert’s bag with his mouthguard. )
I know he had a mouth-guard as part of his night-time routine – I didn’t know she packed it for him. I don’t think that inherently changes the circumstance, though.
Clio said: (And, in your imaginary scenario, rose, this date was going to be Robert’s first BDSM time? Because his other “playdates” just have not come out of the woodwork yet? Or, just maybe, because they do not and would not exist, at least not in this time and space continuum.)
No, I have no idea what he might have done before or if he’d played with anyone in the house before. I simply suggest that people have been strangely focused on the idea of a brutal sexual assault when the circumstances are such that I believe the scenario could easily go the other way. Regardless, we can’t know.
Did I read somewhere that one of the people involved in this site had tracked down an alt.com profile for one or more of the people involved? I’m quite curious about that.
Reply
o
rose
August 5, 2009 at 9:01 PM
Wow, that formatting did not work better.
Reply
#
Hi, rose. Like CD, I would suggest that you review the Archives. Then, even if you may be into the queer, BDSM, polyamorous “scene,”you will quickly discern that Robert Wone was obviously NOT.
Yes, one of the Editors discovered Mr. Price’s alt.com profile, which was still online early this year. Again, go to the Archives to bring it up. Now, unfortunately (perhaps for you), it’s been taken down, and I’m sure that Aunt Marcia is no longer allowing those “libertine” activities to go on under her roof! The “patients” finally may be not in control of their suburban asylum.
I think people need not read their own proclivities or personal choices into those of Robert Wone’s or the defendants.
we need to look at the individual personalities of the people involved in this crime.
What would Joe Price do? What would Robert Wone do? etc.
Not what would CDinDC do or what would rose do?
Yes, I’m working backwards – perhaps I should leap backwards and start moving forward instead so as to avoid further coming off badly.
There’s not such a huge amount of overlap in terms of people who identify of queer, poly and SM. I don’t think anyone would feel that they overlap enough to be their own ‘scene.’
ROSE
Just to be clear, my “:(”
was not meant to be a roll
of the eyes.; it was meant
to express sadness and
frustration with being
misunderstood.
CDCINDC
I agreee with you about
commenters making a
mistake in bringing too
much of their anecdotal
experience to bear on
the personalities and
proclivities of the
participants.
On another subsite, I
went into great detail
about some of my
perceptions of
relationships amongst
and between the
various parties (sorry):
I would imagine that if the wounds were inflicted by three different people they would look substantially different and caught the attention of the ME. I think the wounds were inflicted from the same position and place each time – it was kind of an odd place to be based on how the body was found,,, which suggests that he wasn’t stabbed on the bed but elsewhere.
This post/comment by one of Joe Price’s friends from 10 years ago is really irrelevant.
There are people who are married for 60 years who do not really know each other like they thought they did. A friend from 10 years ago? A nice gesture – but irrelevant.
People change – somtimes dramatically over time [and sometimes over short periods of time].
Some people have more than one side to their personality or life and often one side is completely and very “fastidiously” hidden from people.
Something terrible and diabolical happened in Joe Price’s home in August 2006. And at THE VERY LEAST Joe Price helped cover it up. He has not been forthcoming – so any “character” testimony from 1o years ago does not cut it – sorry.
I wonder if Price covered up for Ward b/c he is afraid of Ward or Ward’s father for some reason?
Ward must have had something juicy on Price.
I have often wondered if Robert knew things about Dylan (or did not think Dylan was good for Joe and Victor). Robert may have been in the process or about to begin the process of telling Joe either that he did not see Dylan as good for Joe, or that the complex nature of the household was not good for Joe. This information or friendly advice from Robert to Joe could be very threatening to Dylan, who at best seems to be a parasite on the relationship between Joe and Victor. “Working towards making Dylan an equal” in the relationship may not have been going smoothly or as fast as Dylan would have liked.
well, there goes any chance of getting people who knew these guys to comment. Nothing like singling them out and giving a snarky headline like “Say it ain’t so, joe.” Nice job, guys.
Getting people to post irrelevant compliments about Joe Price should not be a priority.
Posting a positive comment about joe verbatim doesn’t strike me as snark but an attempt, ok a small one, to give some balance to all of the Price bashing going on here.
And check the origin of the “joe” expression steve. It’s borne from a criminal trial.
It would be amazing if the participants in the three deadly penetrations of the victimized body could remain committed to silence and each other once they truly realized their involvement in the unfolding 9-1-1 events, especially if critics don’t buy the ‘invasion’ terror scenario and instead suspect a homegrown conspiracy like something out of Hollywood. Little consolation that the perpetraitors might be sitting on a beach earning 20% long after investigators finished sorting through the rubble.
Then again, it wouldn’t be the first time.
Stan, not sure what you mean about the beach and 20%… the movie deal? This is far too sick for that. Anyway, obviously these three had a very unusual relationship, and Ward had a hold over Price at least. What was apparently done to Wone was horrific. Even if some mysterious intruder injected him, violated him and stabbed him (with a knife from Ward’s room), you would not expect the three residents to be ‘freshly showered, in robes, and strangely calm’ when the EMTs arrived. I hardly think that Price was worried about having the house tidy for the EMTs so they just laundered everything so his dead friend would look nice for the medics. And it seems highly unlikely that Ward did all that cleanup himself while the others… did what? Had a coffee? Those emergency responders have a lot of experience answering all kinds of calls, and I would trust their instincts when they felt that there was something very, very wrong with the situation when they arrived.
I think the three are convinced that if they stay silent they can even beat the charges brought against them and get off scott-free. I think a pact was made. Even if Zaborsky talks (assuming of course Ward and maybe Price did the deed), he’d probably be charged with accessory to murder? I’m not an attorney so I don’t know but I imagine he’d still do time even if he told all.
can’t wait to read the testimonials about how wonderful ms. ward is — go ahead, girls, the floor is yours. . . {crickets}.
why would attorney price fear needham ward – i am intrigued.
victor, darling, do the right thing. it is not too late.
Many who are in any way connected with the protagonists of this horrible drama seem to be operating with a sense of denial, or are simply dissembling. To wit, from Law.com:
In fact, many of the lawyers who had a brush with Price over the past two years had no idea that the 37-year-old intellectual property litigator was the target of federal prosecutors probing the 2006 death of D.C. lawyer Robert Wone. Prosecutors say Wone, a former Covington & Burling associate, was drugged, sexually assaulted, and stabbed to death in Price’s Dupont Circle row house.
and:
“This is absolutely shocking. This is straight out of left field,” says Gammon & Grange director Timothy Obitts, who was opposing counsel in a trademark dispute this year involving AOL, which Price represented. “Joe’s a man of integrity — completely aboveboard.”
So we are asked to believe that an opposing counsel like Timothy Obitts and other lawyers who worked with him never once Googled the man. Any Google search done in the last years would have produced a load of information on this case.
If this is the sort of denial and de facto protection this matter engenders from lawyers who have nothing to do with it, then what can we expect from people who have been friends in the past. Why? Because lawyering is supposedly a tony occupation, and does not fit with crime. That is the fantasy at least. It is time for anyone with any connections with this case to stop the denials and half-truths. That means all the folks at Arent Fox as well. In today’s cut-throat law firm environment
I do not think that anyone, realistically, becomes partner by being just the nicest guy and ” a man of integrity”.
I do not think that anyone, realistically, becomes partner by being the sort of person who can commit murder and coldbloodedly cover it up.
Also, if you google “Joseph Price”, there are exactly two Wone references in the first hundred hits–one from this site, and one from the recent affadavit. It’s an incredibly common name, so it’s easy for any actual details of the Wone investigation to be lost in the noise; and until the recent charges for conspiracy, the Wone case had pretty much dropped out of the news for two years. Additionally, I don’t know about you, but I’m not really in the habit of typing the names of my colleagues into Google to see if there are any dark secrets. New hires and potential hires, possibly, though even then I’m going to be keeping an eye out for work-relevant hits, not news articles about murder cases (and if I did Google a coworker named “Joseph Price” and saw a reference to a murder case, I’d assume it was a different Joseph Price).
If you search “Joseph Price” and “Arent Fox” nearly half of the first 100 Google hits are about the Wone case.
Which begs a question: what is Price going to do in looking for work? He can’t easily delete his longest gig at a firm from his resume. Ward’s stuff is all over the ‘net, and Zaborsky too (not a common name there).
These guys are done. They cracked on the night of the crime, and they’ll crack at some point in the future.
A huge chunk of which are hits from November 2008 onward, i.e. points after the indictment, as opposed to hits that would have come up while he was merely being investigated.
And this, to me, is the saddest part of this site. Rather: if they’re guilty, then the saddest part is that they committed the crime. But if they’re innocent, the saddest part is that the indictment, the press, and the speculation about it all has utterly ruined them. (Compare Richard Jewell.) And I think that people who post here would do well to remember that.
Holy turd on a biscuit, did you actually just draw a comparison between Richard Jewell and the Swann Street triad? Are you seriously comparing the information presented in the arresting affidavit with the empty case against Richard Jewell?
Try this on for size: screams, discovery of friend bound, punctured and repeatedly stabbed, bleeding profusely, and they WAIT FROM 20 TO UP TO 49 MINUTES to call 911.
If you have some information that disputes that, then we can start to worry about Price, Zaborsky and Ward. Wone “digested his own blood” while his body and bedding and a lot of other items were moved around, washed and repositioned. The only question is which one did what, and certainly why not one of them acted quickly, not whether any one of them is being unfairly targeted here.
From the affidavit:
“…the three residents of 1509 Swann Street delayed their call to the authorities for an extended period of time, as evidenced by, among other things, a gap in time from as little as 19 minutes or as many as 49 minutes between time the scream was heard by W3 and the time Zaborsky placed the call to 9-1-1. Indeed, the evidence suggests that the scream came not from Mr. Wone, who was already incapacitated at the time he was stabbed, but rather from Zaborsky, who admitted to police that he screamed upon seeing Robert’s body. The significant delay in reporting is further demonstrated by the fact that Mr. Wone actively digested his own blood for a significant period of time after he had been stabbed.” [Page 12]
According to the affidavit, Wone was not found bound or bleeding profusely. In fact, it is the lack of significant blood and the matter that there were no apparent defensive actions made by Wone while being stabbed that leads to the conclusion that the site and body were cleaned, and that Wone was drugged prior to the stabbing. See page 2 of the affidavit for the details.
Yes, yes I did.
No, no I’m not.
I recognize that there’s an affidavit by the police, which is more than there was in the Jewell case. What I don’t think people recognize is that that affidavit is not proof of guilt. Yes, it’s more evidence than there was when the press and public opinion convicted Jewell. But it is not, positively not, not in any sense, proof of guilt.
My point, I reiterate, is that if the defendants are innocent (and yes, I genuinely think it’s a possibility), their lives having been destroyed by the speculation will be its own tragedy.
This case is a tragedy, and while many commenters apparently feel otherwise, no matter how this case is resolved, several lives have been ruined.
And the Defendants are presumed innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. This forum exists in part because there are many doubts and contradictions in the available information.
“while many commenters apparently feel otherwise, no matter how this case is resolved, several lives have been ruined.”
Show us where anyone on here has stated they do not feel Price, Zaborsky and Ward’s lives are ruined?
I think everyone would agree with that.
But most of us do seem to think the damage is self inflicted.
“Yes, it’s more evidence than there was when the press and public opinion convicted Jewell.”
Understatement of the year award. Within three months of the Olympic bombing, the prosecuting US Attorney had sent a formal letter to Jewell, exonerating him, after the media had whipped Jewell to death, based on leaks re: mere suspicion.
In this case, we have several years now of searches, evidence analysis, affidavits and more.
We’re all adults here, we realize an affidavit is not a statement of guilt, nothing is except a verdict. Do you really assume we’re too dim to know that?
But we’re also not dim enough to realize that the house had just a bound stabbing victim, and three “friends” who did nothing for 19 to 49 minutes, except of course do a lot of house cleaning.
On that score alone, the scorn is worthy.
SwannSt, I agree with you, except that Wone was not bound. He was paralyzed, assaulted, washed, and carefully posed on the sofabed, something an intruder would not have bothered to do, much less been able to do alone.
[citation needed]
I don’t assume you’re too dim to know it; I’m assuming–no, concluding, because I have evidence for it–that you’re too blinded by the need for a perpetrator to care.
And again, I don’t even think you “know” the things you claim to know; you only know what the police claim, not what the roommates claim.
Blinded by the need for a perpetrator: guilty as charged. I don’t believe aliens did it, I believe someone killed the guy, here in DC, and I’d like the perp(s) convicted and imprisoned.
Dylan Ward is 5’8″ and 130 lbs. according to his arrest warrant. Zaborsky and Price are a little taller and both were skinnier back in 8/06. Wone was maybe just 5-10 lbs lighter than Ward. Therefore, it is extremely unlikely that one of them could have moved Wone around and cleaned him on his own.
Lance wrote:
“I do not think that anyone, realistically, becomes partner by being the sort of person who can commit murder and coldbloodedly cover it up.”
Oh, please. I wish everyone would give it a rest…..just because someone is monied or educated, does NOT mean they are incapable of crime.
Lance must not be in the legal profession. There are plenty of a-hole law partners who are into drugs, alcohol, or illegal things.
Yes, and how many of them are into murder?
What do you mean by “into murder”?
Ward killed Wone and either Price and Zaborsky are clueless or they are accesories after the fact.
Life is stranger than fiction.
How about Joel Steinberg for starters. Remember him? Does the name Hedda Nausbaum ring a bell? He fatally beat a 6-year old girl. Real stand up guy. And he was a criminal defense attorney.
Here’s a few more, if that little gem doesn’t convince you that lawyers DO murder.
Richard Buchli III, MO
Carlos Perez-Olivo, NY
Kevin C. Bryant, NY
Piper A. Rountree, VA
Maurice Sychuk, Canada
And there’s ‘wealthy and influential’ attorney Thomas Capano, who murdered his ex-girlfriend,stuffed her into a cooler, and dumped it into the Atlantic Ocean. Capano was a former state prosecutor and Wilmington, Delaware city attorney. Here’s a quote from the article-
In his summation at the murder trial of a wealthy and influential Wilmington lawyer, a prosecutor urged jurors today to dismiss as absurd the defendant’s story that one of his mistresses accidentally shot another.
”That story is ludicrous,” the prosecutor, Colm F. Connolly, told the jurors in his final remarks before they deliberate. ”That story defies common sense. It is not credible.”
But the chief defense lawyer countered that jurors should not convict the lawyer, Thomas J. Capano, just because he had admitted a series of ”things that may offend you,” such as adultery, lying to investigators, pornography or dumping the body of his former lover into the Atlantic.”
I have to admit, many attorneys are not the nicest -having dated a few and worked in some of the town’s largest firms. Even paralegals can stab you in the back. As for an attorney committing murder, yes, it is within the realm of possibilities.
I hate to generalize but I have found most attorneys (though as with all stereotypes there are many exceptions) that I have met and even gotten to know, to have a certain arrogance and attitude of superiority. They are not ‘lawyers’ they are ‘attorneys.’ I have seen this play out in day-to-day situations where they try to take charge and think they can ‘adjudicate’ or manipulate disagreements. It’s not even a power trip as much as a genuine feeling that they are smarter and can control a legal situation.
lance = needham ward, md
Though myself a lawyer, I am the last person who could be accused of being uncritical of profession.
That being said: there are so-called “good” people and so-called “bad” people in every walk of life.
If for the sake of argument, Wone was a “good” person and Price is a “bad” person — both were offered ptnrships at prominent law firms.
Who is to say that all people who date lawyers are nice people? To follow above blogger logic: with any sense of decency, what kind of person would date a lawyer in the first place? A moral one?
People are irrational & do irrational things. Among
those things are their participating in criminal conspiracies and covering up their acts.
There is not telling in advance what “deal may be cut” by a member of conspiracy “turning state’s evidence.” There are no rules about the structuring of such arrangements.
Ultimately, any plea deal involves considerations such as: nature of the crime; amount of evidence necessary to convict; amt of evidence available; cost of prosecution to law enforcement; risk of conviction to defendant; leverage needed to persuade conspirator to inform, etcetera.
As before stated: presumption of innocence is a legal standard for judges and juries — not a social standard for communities, a familial standard for relations or a moral standard for other individuals.
The innocent have been wrongfully convicted as much or more than guilty have been acquitted. Neither assures a happy or miserable life.
Whether Ward, Price and/or Zaborsky have been wrongfully or rightfully accused, this does not inform us as to the course of their futures.
Wm Ayers & Bernadine Dorhn were “Weathermen”
who were admittedly responsible for at least the assault upon if not the murder of others.
Ayers is now a full professor at the University of Chicago and Dorhn at DePaul Law School if my memory serves me well. Except for a few persons such as myself, few rememberred them until
they were linked to Prez nominee Obama!
Not soaring testimonials or searing condemnations
tell us anything for sure about nature of their prior
actions — let alone the true state of their morality.
The police responded to an emergency call which means that they probably did not arrive with a warrant to search the home for anything.
Absent “exigent circumstances,” the police would have had to do as they did and subsequently obtain a warrant to legitimize any search.
Similarly, law normally requires probable cause before drug test may be ordered. It was not until 30 years ago when I wrote motion upheld by court that NYC authorities could demand handwriting samples from suspects without a court order!
Regarding the comment about demographics and drugs: I supect that one will find a different level of drug use among Gay men of the 1980’s and Mormon’s of the 1980’s. Besides, the logical fallacies of composition & division make observation meaningless on its face.
So far as people changing dramatically or radically,
there are many examples of this real or imagined. Perhaps, the classic is discovering at the end of life that Gay is somebody you believed to be Straight!
Not that it matters: but wonder if everbody knew
that at least in the sex department, Price was not
“right” in childhood, adolescence, university, etc.?
Though celibacy may not in & of itself be a sign of masochism, unhealthy may be feeling obliged to be celibate on account of one’s homosexuality.
Repression of such can lead to all kinds of “acting out” up to and including the murder of a loved one!
Again: the coroner determined that stab wounds were regular, evenly spaced and surgical in nature.
Highly unlikely those incisions were made by 3 people who were not members of a surgical team.
N.B. Robert was stabbed in the front, unlike many of us who were “stabbed in the back.” Fellow anti-war and civil rights activists have been the only people to call me “fag” to my face in my life!
Whatever may have been the nature of friendship between Wone & Price which could have included unrequited love for Robert by Michael, I do not see
their relationship as one in which Robert would be giving Michael advice about how to deal w/ Ward.
Regarding lack of insight on part of indiv, family, group or society: a little denial goes a long way.
Believe it or not: there are priests who deny holocausts, politicians who deny slavery, philosophers who deny misogny, etc.
The only thing greater than the false denial of lawyers is the real denial of homosexuals!
Nice writing…..
Back to the three stab wounds. According to the
coroner, the three stab wounds were approximately
the same depth, evenly spaced & surgical in nature.
If that is indeed the case, then it is highly unlikley
that they were made by three different people —
however good may have been the motive to do so.
In order to charge three with negligence, the after-
the-fact timeline has to be established which has
yet to be done. The X-minute gap is based upon
primarily the timeframe of a news report heard by neighbor combo w/some circumstantial evidence.
Ultimately, one or more of the alleged defendants may be charged as accessory before-the-fact & or after- the-fact. To charge anyone w/manslaughter
could jeopardize a murder charge — in and of itself or under double jeopardy. And all of this would be to assume that manslaughter could be established
which is not at all clear from available evidence.
It is only now — after 2 years — that Ward, Price &
Zaborsky are even being charged with evidence
tampering and the obstruction of justice!
And the only reason Ward, Price and Zaborsky are even being charged with these offenses is not on account of those offenses themselves but in hope of pressuring one or more perpetrator to come forward regarding the more serious offenses!
Unless one believes in innocence of Ward, Price
and/or Zaborsky — an argument I have no desire or intention to join — whole reason this murder case remains unsolved is on account of the law enforcement authorities lacking the necessary evidence to convict anybody of the most serious charges based upon the evidence gathered to date.
Similarly, civil suits of the sort being brought by Kathy Wone are normally — though not legally required to be — brought after resolution of a criminal case (either by conviction or acquittal).
Though one may believe that the civil suit is being initiated by Ms. Wone solely on account of family frustration with the criminal process — and this may indeed be true — it is also possible that the civil suit is being brought as another means by which one or more of the alleged defendants may be pressured into coming forth with evidence.
Robert Wone and Joseph Price had been college
classmates who remained friends. Suspect I am
not alone in having such friends — some of which
are closer to me than others. And my home would
be open to many with whom I am not so close.
I honestly do not know how close was friendship
btw Wone and Price. Perhaps, one or more of you
may enlighten me in this regard. What I do know
is Robert never before slept over in Price home.
Not unlike some others, I am troubled by Robert’s
having chosen to stay at the Swann Street house
given: 1) he had just started a new job; 2) there
was no apparent need for him to work late; 3)
there is no evidence he was working particulary
late; and 4) he could have easily returned home.
For me personally, Robert’s sleep over is the most
mysterious part of case. But whatever may have
been his reason for having done so, I think this
presumption that Robert was other-than-Straight jumps to conclusions which are unquestionably contrary to all of the “available” hard evidence.
According to the coroner: Wone was drugged, restrained & asphyxiated. The presence of needle marks, the absence of defensive wounds and the eyeball expansion evidence — all point away from scenario which would include any consensual sex.
I am not saying that is impossible — just unlikely.
These are really old posts so my response is probably way too late but Robert Wone was planning on having breakfast with Joe Price the next morning to discuss some sort of venture with him. Hence he “bundled” the events, staying late for the radio station meeting of employees, with the breakfast meeting. Why not crash at your buddies house, considering its got lots of room and 4 residents….. Its almost like staying at a dorm again.
N.M.
I do not necessarily disagree with your scenario.
Similar to yourelf, I live in the Dupont Circle
neighborhood — in my case about 3 blocks away.
However: 1) as you know, Wone home is not next
door; 2) one may debate how time consuming was
his commute which is a very subjective matter I
think you will agree; 3) son of a lawyer and lawyer
myself — I know all about working late, returning
home late, getting back up early next morning and
doing so day after day for lifetime (& so did Robert
who probably worked 12 hours a day at the major
law firm from which he rejected a partnership).
In taking general counsel job at Radio Free Asia —
Robert knew in advance that he: 1) would often be
called upon to work late; 2) would frequently be
returning home late & 3) would have little choice
but to return for work early following mornings.
Given Wone’s intimate marital relationship with
his wife and no evidence of extra-marital one with
Price, it is hard to believe that Robert planned on
sleeping at home of a different friend every night
or alternatively staying at a hotel — except on rare
occasions. That would be contrary to prior pattern.
Moreover, it is unclear as to how much “catching
up” Wone & Price might have had to do or Robert’s
interest in same & there is no evidence that Wone
had desired to see interior deco of Swann St rsdc
which seems to hold fascination for Gay bloggers.