Day 20: Wrap

Medical Day at Moultrie

After pushing the schedule from 10:30AM to 1:30PM and ultimately 2:00PM, the trial of defendants Joseph Price, Victor Zaborsky, and Dylan Ward resumed.

Sketch courtesy: William J. Hennessy, Jr.

The defense team announced it was going to call two witnesses to the stand today:  Ms. Tracy Weaver from the DC Fire Department Emergency Medical Services, and Farzad Najam, MD, a cardiac surgeon from George Washington University Hospital.

Ms. Weaver was the first witness to take the stand stating that she has been with DCFD for 13 years as an EMT.  Interviewed by defense attorney David Schertler, she  was composed and confident in her testimony.

Ms. Weaver stated that as soon as Robert Wone was placed in the ambulance, he was attached to a monitor using leads that were placed on his limbs.

Robert exhibited no signs of a pulse, and the monitor  would measure any electrical activity in his heart.  The monitor did indicate there was some electrical activity, therefore Robert demonstrated Pulseless Electrical Activity (PEA).

Protocol for a patient with PEA is to administer CPR and attempt to connect an IV line to the patient.  Ms. Weaver attempted start an IV line twice in Robert’s arm, but was unsuccessful.  her partner, Jeff Baker attempted to insert a line in Robert’s neck, but was also unsuccessful.  This emergency call was classified as a Priority 1 call, so information is transmitted directly to the hospital from the ambulance to alert the ER staff of the condition of the incoming patient.  Ms. Weaver said the attending ER physician and the triage nurse met the ambulance as it arrived at GWU Medical Center.

EMT Tracy Weaver

Ms. Weaver’s cross-examination by prosecutor Glenn Kirschner was delayed until late afternoon to accommodate the schedule of Dr. Farzad Najam, the cardiac surgeon.  Kirschner asked Ms. Weaver what her initial observations were when Robert was loaded into the ambulance.  She concurred that there appeared to be a lack of blood even though there were gaping wounds in his chest large enough to insert a finger.  Robert’s extremities were pale and cool to the touch.

She re-iterated that she tried to start an IV line into his arm, twice, and was unsuccessful, but did not attempt to start one on his ankles or other sites on his body.  That was outside of EMT protocol.  Weaver did say that Jeff Baker, her partner attempted to start an IV in Robert’s neck, unsuccessfully. Baker was positioned at Robert’s head and a fireman was at Roberts right side.  Baker was administering oxygen and the fireman was performing chest compressions.

When asked if Robert was wearing shirt when loaded into the ambulance, Ms. Weaver stated that Baker would have cut the shirt off.  When asked if she actually recalled the removal of the shirt, or whether it was standard operating protocol, Ms. Weaver said she could not recall specifically if this was done.

A review of the log of the ambulance run documented that the EMTs were unable to revive Robert, he showed no signs of respiration, no pulse, and no vital signs.  The cardiac monitor showed Robert had PEA, so protocol dictated to continue administering CPR until the patient was received at the hospital.

Using a numerical rating for the EMT logs, Ms. Weaver recorded that Robert showed no eye movement, no verbal communication, and no motor activity, with 1 point assigned for each factor. A total of 3 points meant Robert was deceased.

Defense attorney Schertler began a cross examination of Ms. Weaver, but was cut short by the late hour.  He will resume his questioning at 9:45AM tomorrow.

Farzad Najam, MD was next to take the stand. His medical training began in Pakistan where he did his undergraduate and medical studies. In 194, Dr. Najam took the US Foreign Medical Graduate Exam and qualified to apply for residency training in the United States.  Dr. Najam became board certified as a general surgeon in 2000 and completed his board certification as a cardiac/thoracic surgeon in 2004.

Farzad Najam and Veronica Jennings of Schertler Onorato

He has been practicing cardiac surgery at GWU since 2004 performing 6-8 surgeries a week.  These procedures include cardiac bypass surgery, repairs and replacements of cardiac valves, and surgery on the great vessels of the chest.  In addition to performing surgery, he is a professor of cardiac surgery at GWU, has lectured in Pakistan, and has published in peer review journals, including an article on trauma to thoracic great blood vessels.

He is one of two full-time cardiac surgeons on staff at GWU.  He has treated patients with chronic and acute cardiac tamponade, chronic occurring in patients with ongoing heart disease that involved fluid and blood leaking into the pericardial sac, and acute occurring usually in patients during or after cardiac surgery.  Dr. Najam stated he has treated over 100 cases of acute cardiac tamponade.

The motion to qualify Dr. Najam as an expert in cardiac surgery and tamponade along with PEA elicited an objection from the prosecutors.  The prosecutors felt that he should be qualified as an expert in the former but not as an expert in PEA, citing the scope of the defense team’s Rule 16 filing.  After a bench conference, Dr. Najam was accepted as an expert in cardiac surgery and tamponade, but not for PEA due to a Rule 16 violation.

David Schertler led the direct of Najam, starting with the autopsy report of Robert Wone from the DC Medical Examiner’s Office.  Dr. Najam stated that he had reviewed the report, autopsy photographs, ER records, EMT logs, and had also examined tissue samples preserved by the medical examiner of Robert’s heart.

Dr. Najam’s testimony included that he was not accustomed to analyzing heart tissue specimens, but was most familiar with the intact heart anatomy.  He then proceeded to demonstrate the function and components of the various chambers and blood vessels associated with the human heart, using a large plastic teaching model.  Then using exhibits, at the request of Judge Leibovitz, Dr. Najam described the various layers from the skin to the heart:

  • skin
  • subdermal layer of tissue
  • cutaneous layer of fat
  • connective fascia tissue layer
  • pectoral  major muscles (“The ones that get bigger from bench presses”, he quipped.)
  • pectoral minor muscles
  • connective fascia covering the sternum and ribs
  • pericardial sac and associated fatty layer
  • the heart and great vessel encapsulated into the pericardial sac

When asked to describe the wound to Robert’s chest as wound number 1 in the medical examiner’s report, Dr. Najam stated that the knife had cut through the root of the aorta and through the left anterior descending (LAD) artery.  The cut to the aorta was about 7/8″ in length and was described as a slice type wound with entry and exit openings. The LAD was completely severed by the knife.  The ramifications of this injury would be to produce a “torrential hemorrhage” leading to cardiac tamponade.  The victim would be rendered unconscious in 5-10 seconds.

Dr. Najam’s explanation for this rapid descent into unconsciousness was that the hemorrhage would fill the pericardial sac, with the clotting blood becoming gel-like and unable to escape through a slit-like wound, creating pressure on the heart, rendering it inefficient in pumping blood.  It would only take 200-250 cc. of blood in the sac to cause tamponade.

With no blood flowing to the brain, unconsciousness would ensure, leading to neurological death within 3 minutes.  Najam stated that this opinion was based on his clinical experience.  When defense attorney Schertler asked if Najam had discussed this with his colleague, Frederick Lough, also of GWU, the request was met with an objection from the prosecution.  After a bench conference, Judge Leibovitz stated that this could be admitted not for its truth, only a validation of his opinion.  Schertler then asked if Lough’s opinion was consistent with Najam’s. Najam said yes, evoking a stern admonishment from Judge Leibovitz to Schertler, “You just ignored my ruling Mr. Schertler.”

Further discussion of the medical examiner’s report was in agreement with what Najam opined: the pericardial sac was distended from the blood, there 200-250 cc. of blood in the sac as a result of hemorrhage from the cut through the aorta.

As Schertler began questioning Najam about the stab wound number 3 which perforated the pancreas, duodenum and superior mesenteric vein, he was met with objections from the prosecution, stating that this line of questioning was outside the scope of the testimony permitted under the Rule 16 filing.  This time Judge Leibovitz allowed Schertler to proceed, saying that the Court of Appeals permits the judge some discretion as to the limits of the scope of the testimony.

Najam stated that the medical examiner’s findings were consistent with his opinions with regards to wound number 1 and number 3, that blood could move into the digestive tract 2 feet without a heart beat from venous pressure that would actually increase as the hemorrhage pushed blood into the pericardial sac.  When queried whether Robert would have remained conscious for more than 5-10 seconds, Najam replied, “No.” When asked why there would be so little external blood, Najam said that only a small amount from the skin wounds would be present, the rest would have flowed into the body.

AUSA T. Patrick Martin then began his cross examination of Dr. Najam.  After a brief bad start by asking Najam about the roles of a cardiology versus a cardiac surgeon as first evaluators of a patient presenting with chest pain or a cardiac condition, Judge Leibovitz, clearly growing impatient with this lengthy discussion, asked Martin to “Please move onto something more relevant.”  That propelled Martin to hit his stride.

When questioned how many times Najam had treated patients with tamponade, Najam replied greater than 20 times; for acute tamponade, 5-10 times in a clinical setting, 4-5 times involving a sharp force injury. Najam did not remember any case in which the pericardial sac was perforated.

When asked how long a person with a 7/8″ slit wound through the heart and pericardial sac would remain conscious, Najam replied, “Eight to ten seconds.” adding that blood pressure and blood flow to the brain was more important to maintaining consciousness that any oxygen already present in the brain.

Martin then queried Najam as to how large a perforation to the aorta would have to be to result in tamponade leading to unconsciousness in such a short time. Najam replied that it doesn’t happen that way in clinical practice, and that to relieve the pressure of blood in the pericardial sac, the surgeon creates a “window”, a sizable opening in the sac to relieve the tamponade.

On showing Najam an exhibit of the hole in Robert’s pericardium, Najam stated that the time to unconsciousness was not based on a measure rate of blood flow, but on the amount (200-250 cc.) of blood accumulated in the sac. When asked on how a practitioner would know when the tamponade process began, Najam said lack of vital signs are indicative of tamponade.  Martin countered that the process could begin 5, 10, 15 seconds before the effects of tamponade reduced the vital signs and was met with agreement from Najam.

On questioning Najam about the stab wounds to Robert’s abdomen. Najam stated that he was not an expert on these or peristalsis and could not offer an opinion.

Marin then asked Najam if while he was reviewing the medical examiner’s specimens of Robert’s heart, if Najam had difficulty locating or identifying the aortic valve.  Najam acknowledged that it did take him 10-15 minutes to find it.  When asked if Dr. Najam had ever been qualified as an expert witness in cardiac surgery or any other field, Najam said, “No.”

When asked which wounds were inflicted first on Robert, Najam said he had no opinion as to the timing or sequence of the wounds.  With regards to the evidence of blood in the abdomen and their effect on the cardiac tamponade, Najam said he could offer no opinion. When asked what opinion could Najam offer with regards to Robert’ stab wounds, Najam offered based on his clinical experience, a slice to the aorta would lead to immediate tamponade rendering the patient unconscious in 5-10 seconds.

Tomorrow’s session will start at 9:45AM.  The continuing cross examination of EMT Ms. Tracy Weaver will lead. Expectations are that Doug Deedrick, fiber analysis expert will be recalled to the witness stand as a rebuttal to defense witness Petraco’s testimony.

190 comments for “Day 20: Wrap

  1. Clio
    06/22/2010 at 9:29 PM

    The defense seems to be beseiged at the moment, so why bring the turtle Doug Deedrick back to the stand? He may be Culuket’s proverbial “ace-in-the K-hole.”

    • Carolina
      06/22/2010 at 9:55 PM

      I don’t think Deedrick is as dumb as he was made out. He can still discuss the lack of lobal fibers on the knife, which is important. IF the only fibers on that bloody knife are cotton, then someone had better explain how there are cotton relics but no rayon. You don’t even have to look for “black” fibers, just the shape of their cross sections.

      Otherwise, it sure does seem like the only fabric with which that knife came in contact was a cotton towel, not a cotton/rayon tee shirt.

      • david
        06/22/2010 at 10:55 PM


        I agree with Carolina that Deedrick is not dumb. He maybe a turtle, in that he didn’t stick his neck out during his testimony. I think he has learned as an expert who has been called in many trials, how to limit the amount of information that he gives so the defense has less to work with when attacking him. Rather smart strategy. I think the prosecution plans on calling him back because he can advance his arguments on the fibers on the knife and beat back the defense’s expert on the same subject. Sounds like a risk worth taking.


  2. Jimbo
    06/22/2010 at 9:43 PM

    Coming into this case midstream…can someone explain the relevance of the cardiac tamponade as it relates to the time of death and the possible obstruction? Thanks and kudos to the great reporting and comments.

    • Carolina
      06/22/2010 at 9:56 PM

      That is a week’s worth of explaining. Try using the search function for Tamponade. You should get plenty of in depth and not so in depth explanations.

    • chilaw79
      06/22/2010 at 10:08 PM

      I don’t think cardiac tamponade has anything to do with fixing the time of death. The testimony on cardiac tamponade establishes that there is a relatively short period of time between the stab wound that cut the aortic root of Mr. Wone’s heart and the time when he would have become unconscious. The order of the wounds and the precise time when the wounds were made is not clear.

      I do not think the PEA shown on the monitors establishes that Mr. Wone was alive (in any sense in which I think of the term). The testimony from the cardiac surgeon today would say that Mr. Wone was dead when he was loaded into the ambulance (if not long before then).

    • RosieRiveted
      06/22/2010 at 10:21 PM

      Do look that up as Carolina suggests, but in a nutshell, the relevance is that if they can establish a more precise timeline of events based on a more precise time of death, then they demonstrate a delay in the call to 9-1-1, presumably while the defendants were conspiring.

      • cinnamon
        06/22/2010 at 10:24 PM

        I thought the cardiac tamponade was being used to explain the lack of blood at the scene and the lack of defensive wounds.

        • Carolina
          06/23/2010 at 8:08 AM

          Both, actually.

    • BadShoes
      06/22/2010 at 10:27 PM

      Briefly, there are three issues:

      a) Surgical wounds: sleep or incapacitation? Mr. Wone’s suffered three very precise stab wounds, with no evidence that he moved while being stabbed, no defense wounds, and no blood on his hands. To the prosecution, this is evidence that Mr. Wone was incapacitated when he was stabbed. The defense is attempting to show that Mr. Wone was overcome by the effects of his injuries so quickly that he was unable to move or offer any defense. Tamponade would quickly (but how quickly?) cause unconsciousness.

      b) Blood. If Mr. Wone suffered tamponade, he would tend to bleed internally rather than externally, helping explain the absence of blood at the crime scene.

      c) Time of Death. EMT Baker said that Mr. Wone appeared to have been dead for some time when he arrived at 11:55pm. If, as the medical examiner believed, Mr. Wone lived on for some time after being stabbed, this would push the time of his stabbing forward and call into question the defendants’ account, which places his stabbing at around 11:45pm. If Mr. Wone died quickly, the defense will likely argue that when the EMTs detected PEA at 11:59pm, this indicates that Mr. Wone was stabbed only a few minutes earlier, consistent with the defendants account.

      Its actually waay more complicated. For example, if Mr. Wone was instantly incapacitated, how could he scream? If he could scream, how come he didn’t move when stabbed? And much, much, more…

      • tucsonwriter
        06/22/2010 at 11:51 PM

        In response to B above, from that wound. Wound #3 hit a major vein also.

        The order of the wounds – pure speculation – stomach then up.

        If I were to imagine this- the person starts with the easiest area to “perforate” – the stomach. The perp has to be – due to the orientation of the knife wounds standing near Robert Wone’s right shoulder. Stomach first, with the wound to the heart last. Building in intensity. The wound to the heart would take the most force on the part of the perp.

        This scenario means blood would spurt from wound 1. Wound 3 would occur at the end of the stabbing spree. Both wound 1 and wound 3 would kill Robert Wone within 4 mins. According to the testimony today wound 3 would do it faster. But assuming this scenario occurred last. I think the stabs would be in fairly quick succession.

        I feel so sad for Katherine Wone. I can’t imagine what she is going through having to see all of this in court. Of course she wants justice for her husband. As I recall she is a nurse so not totally squeamish but this has to be hard to deal with.

        • tucsonwriter
          06/22/2010 at 11:53 PM

          My wound numbers have nothing to do with autopsy report. I think she numbered 1 as the closest to the top of the body. My #3 corresponds to her #1.

        • QQS
          06/23/2010 at 12:11 AM

          I thought Kathy Wone is a lawyer as well, no?

          • Carolina
            06/23/2010 at 8:09 AM

            Yes, she is, but not a criminal attorney.

        • AnnaZed
          06/23/2010 at 12:12 AM

          What if (this is hard to contemplate, so wedded have I been to the idea that Robert might not have suffered long) but what if the killer making these neat incisions positioned the knife and then slowly drove it home with the heal of his other hand (the way one pushes a shovel into hard soil with one’s foot)? What if the this act of murder was not frenzied at all, but methodical (as it seems). There would be no cast-off then possibly. Maybe Robert was restrained like the clever poster from yesterday opined likening it to the man who was shot by a firing squad and his hand curled like Robert’s did. Maybe a person seated at the head of the bed could do that and the tamponade could result.

          Blood would still get around somewhat though and I wonder if the defendants have spent a great deal of time on this tamponade business because they themselves were distressed by how much blood got about and had cleaned it though now no one is even asking about that cleaning very much really. Maybe in their anxiety to demonstrate that there possibly wasn’t such a mess after all and that (no) they didn’t do any cleaning (who us?) they lost sight of the ball and overlooked that this hammering away at the idea that Robert died instantly just demonstrates that they are complete liars. Liars about murder but maybe not compulsive tidiers of blood seems the greater of the two evils to me is being inadvertently demonstrated, by them!

          • tucsonwriter
            06/23/2010 at 12:34 AM

            Did any of y’all follow up on Chilaw79 post from I think yesterday about googling and coming to a site where a purported “writer” was trying to figure out how much blood would spurt from a wound to someone in a bathtub dated July of 2006? Zeno’s Forensics or something like that. They read some Australian review and answered the question for themselves and posted it, in addition, if my recall is correct. I was scouting a lot of leads yesterday so…

            I am sure, since you all have such eagle eyes that you came across that.

            Certainly if you combined AZ’s comment above with the bathtub scenario…. If we are assuming, which I think indeed is called for by the circumstances, a surreal mind state on the part of the perpetrator….. I could see them being very detached.

            However, the blood down the patio drain seems pretty important. Joe Price has talked way too much and he did include the detail that they had a burn/fire issue with BBQ steaks in the back. That leads me to believe that Victor would have been stabbed out there. Then hosed down. The BBQ is offered to quarter the fact that blood (cow/steak/ burn) was in the drain.

            I really think Joe over-thought this.

            • tucsonwriter
              06/23/2010 at 12:36 AM

              Also if Robert were stabbed out on the back patio, then brought in, that would have left the back door open.

              They then would have showered him which would account for the damp sheets.

              I still can’t account for the back of the shirt being bloody.

            • Former Criminal Sex Offense Prosecutor
              06/23/2010 at 12:38 AM

              Robert Wone was stabbed & murdered, not Victor. I am sure that is what you meant.

              • tucsonwriter
                06/23/2010 at 1:32 AM

                I actually made that mistake twice – corrected the first instance. Missed the second one. Each time I meant to write Robert I wrote Victor.

            • tucsonwriter
              06/23/2010 at 12:39 AM

              OOps not Victor I mean Robert. I keep writing Victor when I mean Robert. I guess I feel Victor is a victim too. Does anyone know by how much time he curtailed his business trip? Hours or days?

              If he wasn’t supposed to be home until the next day….. downstairs tenant gone, next door housekeeper gone.

              Joe and Dylan have cleared the area for their fun.

              • galoon
                06/23/2010 at 6:02 AM

                Victor is no victim. Not by a long shot. He made a conscious decision to be a part of the process.

                • Bob
                  06/23/2010 at 8:28 AM

                  Victor is not a victim in this conspiracy. He may be a victim in the irrelevant sense if Joe was cheating on him against his consent.

              • Carolina
                06/23/2010 at 8:55 AM

                Should have been home between 11 and 12, got home around 5.

            • AnnaZed
              06/23/2010 at 12:47 AM

              Yes, there is certainly something niggling and probably vitally important being pointed to by the whole bizarre account of the burnt steaks and the dousing of the grill with the hose. Who does that, seriously, who? It’s fiction, that’s for sure, but fiction with a purpose.

              I am reminded of a seriously imbalanced narcissist that occupied a position in my life for awhile (ex-wife-mother-of-child-of-then-boyfriend). She would tell the most bizarre and convoluted lied, most of them easily disproved but the thing that I noticed is that the big lies were like great flashing highway signs that read “look here.” She couldn’t help it, she would explain and make excuses about things that I didn’t even know about, yet. It became pretty easy to parse actually though I should add that may guy was pretty easily baffled by her. I think Joe’s mind works like that and I also think that Victor has spent a lot of years being manipulated that way.

              • Former Criminal Sex Offense Prosecutor
                06/23/2010 at 1:01 AM

                I get the same vibes about the manipulation. I thought that Tucsonwriter was projecting that feeling as well in what I took to be a Freudian slip.

                You can’t help but suspect that Victor really didn’t know everything about what was going on behind his back while he was away on business trips.

                It is hard to imagine that Victor was thrilled with being replaced by the younger uninhibited Dylan in a house Victor had purchased with his registered domestic partner Joe Price.

                The feeling of being older, competing with someone younger, is hurtful & humilating. Joe Price really must have done a number on Victor’s pysche over the years.

                • Bill 2
                  06/23/2010 at 1:15 AM

                  I think Victor came home early to see what Joe would be doing. When he was told that Joe was at the gym, he rushed right over there. He didn’t find Joe at the gym. Where was Joe and what was he doing? Did police check his movements in the hours before the murder?

                  And don’t forget that they kept Victor in the dark about Robert sleeping over that night. Victor didn’t know until he saw Dylan making up the guest bed. Dylan was preparing for the guest. Dylan answered the door when Robert arrived.

                  • tucsonwriter
                    06/23/2010 at 1:20 AM

                    How do you know this? Early by hours or more?

                • tucsonwriter
                  06/23/2010 at 1:17 AM

                  AZ – I think when I first began posting I “totally” used the word narcissist. In some ways I hate to use “ism” language but I think when it comes to something that is seriously wrong, it helps to be able to attach a label to it.

                  FCSOP – I do feel Victor was dragged into this. I think that is why he screamed. I wish we knew what kind of scream it was. How long? What did it sound like? Was it an eek, I saw a mouse scream, or an aaaaaah,everything I knew or thought I knew is changed?

                  • tucsonwriter
                    06/23/2010 at 1:18 AM

                    I am talking about the scream the neighbors heard – which was when Victor totally blew it for everyone. He is definitely in the dog house for that one.

                    • Former Criminal Sex Offense Prosecutor
                      06/23/2010 at 1:28 AM

                      I agree that Victorscreamed. Not sure what it sounded like.But the neighbors heard it.

                  • AnnaZed
                    06/23/2010 at 1:21 AM

                    I resisted calling Joe a narcissist for a long time, until I was reading his statements to the police and when asked what type of man Dylan might be attracted to he simply says “well, me.” Then I crossed over to the dark side.

                    • tucsonwriter
                      06/23/2010 at 1:39 AM

                      I Dj at a community radio station and I love this one song that has the lyrics (regarding breaking up music into genre’s) “There are only two types of music: good and bad.” Which is of course completely subjective. I never believed in evil until a few years ago. Now I am utterly convincedof it. As opposed to goodness. I think this case is good vs. evil. In its starkest entirety.

                    • Rox
                      06/23/2010 at 7:43 AM

                      @tucsonwriter– where do you DJ– KXCI? I DJed there for several years before moving from AZ. (Apologies to all for the off-topic post.) How’d you stumble upon this case, living so far from DC?

                • Carolina
                  06/23/2010 at 9:01 AM

                  If the Apex story is true, Victor has more to worry about than Dylan. I hope he double wraps. Actually, a SCUBA suit might not be a bad idea and Joe might find it interesting.

                  • tucsonwriter
                    06/23/2010 at 5:24 PM

                    Rox – Yep KXCI Friday’s 1-3 pm. Will not be on this friday tho.

                    I stumbled onto this researching the narcotrafficante’s and Mexico. I was researching Edwin Meese’s – due to his disclosing to the Mexican Attorney General back in the 1980’s confindential DEA sources, etc Got curious to see what kind of Attorney General we have now since the two before have been disasters. Wikepedia had a link to this site.

              • Carolina
                06/23/2010 at 9:41 AM

                “Water, water everywhere…” It just seems like they spent way too much time explaining the patio and master bathroom floods. Why? Why would anyone say those things? The only reason I can think is that they wanted to explain something before it was asked, giving it more credence, something they told rather than made up in response to a question asked.

            • LRN
              06/23/2010 at 9:31 PM

              I keep coming back to the patio and to the first officer on site (Diane something) whose write up had Joe’s original story being that Robert got stabbed in the patio and they brought his body upstairs. I have posted on here that Robert was probably killed in kitchen or in the patio and washed upstairs. If that was Joe’s first story–before he had a chance to “think” I would imagine that’s the closest to the truth. But then again, if Robert was stabbed in the patio, he would have screamed. Incapacitated in the kitchen with GHB?

              I don’t know about you all but when I visit friends we stay and chat longer than 5 minutes around the kitchen.

        • Former Criminal Sex Offense Prosecutor
          06/23/2010 at 1:24 AM

          Katherine Yu Yone isn’t a nurse, she met Robert Price at an ABA meeting, they were both lawyers in love.

          • tucsonwriter
            06/23/2010 at 1:43 AM

            Did you read about how he proposed to her? So sweet. So romantic. I am so struck by how lovely they were and how their time together was cut so short. Three years. A whole lifetime ahead. She was robbed. No amount of money will make it right.

            I don’t know where I got the nurse thing. There has to be a nurse somewhere. I did a lot of research yesterday. Burnt out from it today.

            • Former Criminal Sex Offense Prosecutor
              06/23/2010 at 2:27 AM

              I wrote you a long response back, it has not “posted”. I’ll try again in the am if it is still missing. I know where you got the idea & yes, Robert was so romantic.

              • tucsonwriter
                06/23/2010 at 2:42 AM

                I think this site is under attack by hackers.

                • tucsonwriter
                  06/23/2010 at 2:51 AM

                  I don’t know but in the last two days I have had trouble in my postings that I never had before, While I would like to this is ….

                  ??? Ummm I am not a computer person I have noticed that when I google the below responses were about the site address. to the the extent that if you clicked on that link it gave you a description of the/ address of the server for this site.

                  How different is a computer from a person when under attack?

              • KKinCA
                06/23/2010 at 10:13 AM

                Where is the proposal story? I would love to read it.

                • Former Criminal Sex Offense Prosecutor
                  06/23/2010 at 11:10 AM

                  For you & Tucson & all romantics everywhere,

                  For those of us who did not know Robert Wone, it is a great read by Harry Jaffe. You get a wonderful sense of what an amazing person Robert Wone was, why he was so well liked, why his friends from work & college & his family mourn his loss so profoundly.

                  And if you are not moved by the love story of Robert & Kathy Wone, please check the place where your heart should be beating (& notify Bill Orange immediately as he is our resident cardiac specialist.)

                  The proposal:

                  “When she opened her apartment door, she saw a trail of rose petals, which led to a bouquet of long-stemmed roses. On her dining-room table was a plate of fresh fruit amid more petals. Next to it was a ring box and a sterling-silver fortune cookie. The tiny note inside read: ‘Will you marry me?’

                  She opened the blue Tiffany box and asked him to put the ring on her finger.

                  ‘Did I surprise you?’ he asked.”

                  You feel Katherine’s loss so completely when you read about their love. At the same time I wish I knew someone like Robert, genuine, caring, generous, a loyal friend & devoted husband & so utterly romantic to sweep me off my feet with a proposal so elegantly planned,so clearly inspired by true love.

                  • tucsonwriter
                    06/23/2010 at 6:09 PM

                    Wow! I reposted this to next day as it is soooo moving and such a great summary of events.

                    Waaah. I need to have a good cry now.

          • Carolina
            06/23/2010 at 9:42 AM

            Ah Jackson B. Thanks for the earworm, FCSOP.

        • galoon
          06/23/2010 at 5:50 AM

          I believe Mrs. Wone is an attorney.

    • CDinDC (Boycott BP)
      06/23/2010 at 1:15 PM

      The defense wants to prove that Robert died immediately and therefore he didn’t bleed profusely. Tamponade would cause internal bleeding.

      The defense is using PEA to show that the defendants called 911 call. They are giving a small window of time in which PEA can been seen in an EKG.

      Ao combine tamponade and PEA, the defense is saying the stabbing, tamponande, PEA and 911 calls were all within minutes of each other.

      • CDinDC (Boycott BP)
        06/23/2010 at 1:18 PM

        Darn, I need to proofread today…

        “…to show that the defendants IMMEDIATELY called 911 call.”

  3. 310 Observer
    06/22/2010 at 9:48 PM

    I think it might be significant to include that it was Judge Leibovitz, not Martin, who asked about Dr. Najam’s history/experience as an expert witness.

    Great job! As someone attending the trial, I enjoy comparing my notes to your notes at the end of each day. Thanks for the great work.

    • chilaw79
      06/22/2010 at 9:55 PM

      I absolutely concur with your observation that Judge Leibowitz asked two important questions regarding the status of Dr. Najam as an expert witness (whether he had been qualified as an expert before and whether he had testified as an expert before).

      Judge Leibowitz also asked the other question I had in my mind which was whether Dr. Najam could opine which wound occurred first. He said he could not.

  4. Deb
    06/22/2010 at 9:56 PM

    I wonder exactly (primarily) what the defense was trying to elicit from Weaver? Maybe that EMT’s caused the needle punctures? Gorilla dust, to borrow the phrase.

    • chilaw79
      06/22/2010 at 10:03 PM

      The only purpose for putting Weaver on the stand was to have her testify about the PEA she observed on the monitor in the ambulance.

      The defense clearly did not want her to testify about anything else, but the defense had her testify about the run sheet so everything on it (including all the evidence of death evidenced on the run sheet) was brought out by the prosecutors on cross-examination.

      • Bill Orange
        06/22/2010 at 10:15 PM

        Disagree–she said that Baker tried to put a line in Wone’s neck, which Baker expressly said he did not do.

        • chilaw79
          06/22/2010 at 11:08 PM


          I definitely had the impression that EMT Weaver and EMT Baker have done so many runs together that her specific recollection of the run involving Mr. Wone may not be that distinct. A lot of her testimony turned on protocols. For example, she was not sure if the other EMT cut off Wone’s shirt in the ambulance or sometime before. I looked at my notes and I just noted that she said she tried to place an IV twice and failed and Baker tried to place an IV twice and failed. They also failed to intubate. Apparently, protocol says that two attempts per person is the limit and only one attempt to intubate is made.

          I thought she did not really help the defense. I do not think any needle punctures made by the EMT or the hospital are not accounted for, but there are additional punctures, particularly around the ankles, that both the EMTs and the hospital deny making.

          • tucsonwriter
            06/22/2010 at 11:57 PM

            Excellent points. Both Bill O and Cl79

          • Carolina
            06/23/2010 at 9:06 AM

            I am still very, very curious about Lawmed insisting that lines in the ankle were the norm and the nurse had to be mistaken.

            Then he disappeared.

            • KKinCA
              06/23/2010 at 10:16 AM

              Ditto. I have queried about Lawmed’s disappearance in a few posts yesterday as I was trying to get an “expert” explanation of how resuscitation efforts would have resulted in drenching Robert’s shirt with blood. The silence is deafening.

  5. chilaw79
    06/22/2010 at 10:01 PM

    Two more comments about my afternoon in court:

    First, the autopsy photo of Robert Wone on the stainless steel table was gruesome. I feel badly for any of his family in attendance.

    Second, despite all these arguments about time of death, it was clear to me after today’s testimony that Robert Wone was dead when he was loaded into the ambulance and may have been dead for a while before that.

    If I were their lawyer, I would tell the defendants that they should not kiss, hug, or wave at anyone in the courtroom and should not pass notes to people in the courtroom audience. I was not sure if Kathy Wone was in the courtroom today, but if she was, I cannot see how she can bear this.

    • CuriousinVA
      06/22/2010 at 10:13 PM

      Ugh…your last paragraph Chilaw makes me sick. I’ve not been in the courtroom but from everything I’ve read about these defendants (esp. Joe) this type of behavior does not surprise me one bit. Even if they were 100 percent innocent it would still be so disrespectful to treat any solemn occasion regarding the death of their so-called friend as their own personal social event.

      • chilaw79
        06/22/2010 at 11:11 PM

        Dylan Ward was the worst offender. Joe Price was not dishing out affection, but he did pass a note to someone in the audience.

        I am sure that the defendants are happy to see their friends, but I think they should be a little less effusive.

        • Carolina
          06/23/2010 at 9:09 AM

          You’d think a simple, “Thank you for coming. We all appreciate your support” during the breaks would be sufficient.

    • DCULater
      06/22/2010 at 10:32 PM

      Defendants greeting supporters with hugs and kisses in a court of law? Such actions suggest the three boys have very limited (if any) ability to self monitor or behave appropriately under such grave circumstances. Were a jury involved, I’m sure this hugging and kissing would be noted and not well received. Zero social skills here. Do these guys think they’re on poodle beach hugging and bussing their pals? Complete insanity. Here’s hoping the “defendants three” receive all kinds of special smooches and hugs when they’re behind bars.

      • Grrr
        06/22/2010 at 10:42 PM

        Not at all!

        They have processed their actions for a couple of years now. The horrid pall which hangs over them is like a bad smell that one gets used to.

      • AnnaZed
        06/22/2010 at 11:05 PM

        I am deeply and profoundly sick of people making veiled and not so veiled reference to these defendants or any defendants being sexually abused in prison as though it were an appropriate or desirable outcome of this or any other legal proceeding. I am certain that Robert Wone would be disgusted by anyone purporting to speak for him even intimating such a thing. You don’t see much of it on this blog, but like in the above post you see it here sometimes, and I feel that I can not leave such posts unanswered or that might be seen as a form of endorsement. For the record I don’t take that view and I am absolutely certain that the creators of this blog don’t either. Take that passive aggressive bloody-minded crap somewhere else.

        • DCULater
          06/22/2010 at 11:11 PM

          Fairly presumptuous of you AnnaZ.

          • AnnaZed
            06/22/2010 at 11:14 PM

            Really, so you endorse prison rape as a form of punishment for convicted offenders? Do tell.

            • Themis
              06/22/2010 at 11:41 PM


              Prison rape is real and pernicious. This report by a national bipartisan commission is lengthy, but the problem is extensive.

              • AnnaZed
                06/22/2010 at 11:51 PM

                Thanks for that link Themis. Prison sex abuse is horrifying and not funny.

                • bigfatmike
                  06/23/2010 at 3:09 AM

                  You go girl!

                  Thanks for reminding us.

                  You are exactly right.

            • Carolina
              06/23/2010 at 9:46 AM

              I think that some of us get very angry when faced with such things as Robert’s autopsy photos. I don’t agree with the poster, but I understand where that anger comes from.

        • david
          06/22/2010 at 11:25 PM


          Well said. Agree. We hope that this site models the best of who Robert Wone was — examining all the facts, not calling even those who are presumed guilty as subhuman — even if sharp elbows are thrown around here, let’s remember there is pain on all sides.

          Yes, Robert will never speak again, and the defendants continue to draw air, so clearly the pain is deeper for those who knew Robert. Their loss lives forever. But, the defendants come from families who love them dearly. It is clear that Victor Zaborsky comes from a good family. His mother and father have not missed a single session of court. Dylan Ward’s father, mother and brother, from what we can tell, have all been in court. Needham and Diane Ward have been very affectionate as they hold each other up.

          Let us all remember Kathy Wone’s clarion call to the defendants at the one year anniversay of Robert’s murder. I paraphrase so it went something like this, “Tell us all that you know. It will be the toughest decision you will ever make, our laws will impose severe consequences for your actions but it but it will be nothing compared to living with a conscious that will become unbearable. Telling us all you know will set you free in ways you can’t even comprehend right now.”

          David, co-ed.

          • tucsonwriter
            06/23/2010 at 12:46 AM

            I am thoroughly impressed by this site.

            I am thinking this is some kind of first. I am not sure exactly how to define what this site is doing but its very powerful.

            Kudos to the eds to finding a new way to use existing technology to a positive and powerful new medium. I would like to think someday this will be named after Robert Wone, whatever this is.

        • GU92
          06/22/2010 at 11:27 PM

          I agree, AnnaZed.

        • Lee
          06/23/2010 at 6:50 AM

          I’m with you, Anna. The idea of locking a person in an environment ruled by thugs and abusers is horrifying to me. The idea of people being bullied, used, and raped is unacceptable and overwhelming.

          But the thought that some other people relish that prisoners are abused and raped is something I cannot imagine. This attitude seems to indicate some sort of pathology.

        • Daphne
          06/23/2010 at 8:28 AM


      • MikeDC
        06/22/2010 at 11:25 PM

        Your comments are inappropriate. Why don’t the editors of this site delete these types of comments. These “supermarket tabloid” type comments are really beginning to discredit this site.

      • Former Criminal Sex Offense Prosecutor
        06/22/2010 at 11:37 PM

        Sorry to burst anyone’s bubble, Joe Price will be well received behind bars (if convicted). Jailhouse lawyers are always revered & in demand, a genuine skilled litigator is better than a celebrity. I wish this wasn’t true, but that is really part of the pecking order. There is a social scale, just like in high school or any other miserable institution.
        At the dead bottom are child killers & child molesters. They are the most despised. After that, serial rapists of women. Joe Price convicted of what amounts to obstruction of justice with a lot of gossip & rumors combines minor celebrity with a hot talent.
        Plus, look at the worst fear most males express in reference to prison time, someone dropping the soap. Is that really terrifying as a fantasy to Joe Price of all people? The bossy bottom who wants it rough? He will not need Dylan anymore, guys will line up to compete for Joe’s um, hand in the joint.

        If you think the guards will have it in for him, that is not true either. The payscale is so low that they are easily bribed into virtually becoming more like a friend who supplies you with what you want as well as offering protection if you need it. Joe will adapt quite nicely.

        Victor, on the other hand doesn’t have anything to offer inside. He is the one who should be very afraid.

        • tucsonwriter
          06/23/2010 at 12:48 AM

          BTW there is an interesting article about Bernie Maddoff in THE WEEK this past week. He is like a celebrity at his jail. People follow him around, etc.

          The only false note he hit was by not knowing how to take a shower.

          BTW he hired a consultant to help him make the move to jail. Yes, these people exist!

          • tucsonwriter
            06/23/2010 at 12:50 AM

            i.e. Consultants to celebrities making the move to medium security prisons

    • tucsonwriter
      06/22/2010 at 11:59 PM

      Was this your first time in the court?

      • tucsonwriter
        06/23/2010 at 1:52 AM

        This was intended for chilaw. Its sort of buried in the flurry of posts.

        • chilaw79
          06/23/2010 at 9:42 AM

          As a spectator in this trial, yes, but as a lawyer, no.

          While most of my practice does not involve litigation, I have tried cases in D. C. Superior Court. and in the local federal courts.

    • Bill 2
      06/23/2010 at 12:29 AM

      “If I were their lawyer, I would tell the defendants that they should not kiss, hug, or wave at anyone in the courtroom and should not pass notes to people in the courtroom audience.”

      They’re media stars. They’re celebrities. Joe and Dylan even wear dark glasses so their fans can spot them easier as they process into Moultrie. It’s all about waving to their public, macho hugs, air kisses and cute notes to special fans. It’s Showtime for Price and Ward. (Zaborsky is there because they need him to water the plants.)

    • Rapt in MD
      06/23/2010 at 10:08 AM

      Kathy came later in the afternoon and sat in the back row. I agree that the defendants seem like they are at some kind of reunion.

  6. susan
    06/22/2010 at 10:10 PM

    This concerns DiMaio’s testimony. The Washington Post states that DiMaio said

    “Wone was stabbed in his sleep and did not awake to fend off his attacker because the stabbings happened quickly.”

    The Post then quotes DiMaio as saying “You can do it in less than a second, boom-boom-boom,” DiMaio said, pounding his hand three times.

    First off, how can he possibly say categorically that R. Wone was “stabbed in his sleep”?

    Secondly, isn’t precision of utmost important in testimony? We’re counting seconds re tamponade and minutes re time, etc. Therefore, doesn’t DiMaio somewhat invalidate any credibility he might have by saying “you can do it in less than a second, boom, boom, boom”? Really? “Less than a second”? In what planet with what time warp?

    • Bill Orange
      06/22/2010 at 10:21 PM

      I think he’s right, to be honest. Try it with a stopwatch. Make a first, and pound it on a table –hard–three times. You can do it in under a second. If you’re particularly adventurous–and I am absolutely NOT recommending that you try this–you could attempt the same experiment on your sleeping partner. I suspect that you’ll see a response in well under a second.

      • Pshep
        06/22/2010 at 10:26 PM

        If you were to stab someone 3 times in under a second there would almost definitely be blood castoff…

        • Bill Orange
          06/22/2010 at 11:00 PM

          No argument there.

      • susan
        06/22/2010 at 10:26 PM

        Maybe. Except a fist on a table only has air as resistance. A knife of–how many inches?–traveling through the skin and the various layers (soft leather, said Dr. F?) is meeting with more resistance. Then there’s removing it an moving on to another location. I think it would involve a suspension of Earthly time to do that in “less than one second.”

        • susan
          06/22/2010 at 10:37 PM

          Aside from the fact it seems supernaturally impossible to make three precise, clean stab wounds in LESS THAN ONE SECOND, if this were anywhere near true, it would be the first instance of alleged haste in the case.

          The alleged intruder bypassed D. Ward’s room, met –according to the defense–a sleeping Mr. Wone. What was the rush? Time enough to clean, tippy toe out, and disappear into the night with no one in the home apparently hearing him/her/IT.

          • chilaw79
            06/22/2010 at 11:22 PM

            Why would a burglar stab a sleeping person? The sleeping person is not a potential witness and poses no immediate threat. My own view is that Wone was incapacitated (not sleeping). Perhaps it is a function of my own difficulties in falling asleep on an overnight visit, but I find it difficult to believe that Wone was so deeply asleep he never reacted to the presence of the person who stabbed him.

            • tucsonwriter
              06/23/2010 at 12:54 AM

              But why, as Chilaw says.

              I do not sleep well in a foreign environment.

              And what about the thing where you are in your car staring at someone and they look at you. People have instincts and basic really animal/mammal stuff. LIke the EMT’s hair standing up on his neck.

              Unless you are drugged (in the water). The standard toxicology test did not test for any of the date rape drugs. Those drugs are gone in 72 hours. They are colorless, odorless, and tasteless – hence their properties.

              • Leo
                06/23/2010 at 7:41 AM

                No, the toxicologist did test for standard date rape drugs, see the report, where GHB is listed. There was no testing for things like ketamine or succinylcholine.

        • Bill Orange
          06/22/2010 at 10:51 PM

          I think that a determined individual, particularly one with experience in handling a knife, could do it without too much trouble.

          • susan
            06/22/2010 at 11:02 PM

            I will have to disagree with you. I’m sure there must be some “experts” who could say. Probably one for the defense and one for the prosecution…….!

            • Liz
              06/22/2010 at 11:39 PM

              Didn’t Dylan graduate from culinary school? I’m suddenly thinking that it could be Dylan who actually stabbed Robert.

              • AnnaZed
                06/22/2010 at 11:48 PM

                Yes Liz, that notion has been bandied about a bit, not least by law enforcement. I think they might have been on to something there, but the obstruction, tampering and conspiracy have obscured the facts. We may never know.

                • tucsonwriter
                  06/23/2010 at 12:56 AM

                  From what I have read they were about to arrest Dylan for murder when the MP burglary took place. I question that burglary as a way to remove evidence the police were onto. It was pretty convenient plus the charges were later dropped, even though MP stole the stuff and pawned it.

                  • tucsonwriter
                    06/23/2010 at 12:57 AM

                    On the negative side, the MP ownership of the key came out.

                  • Carolina
                    06/23/2010 at 9:59 AM

                    That they were about to arrest Dylan is only supposition.

                    • tucsonwriter
                      06/23/2010 at 6:11 PM

                      They did arrest Dylan. Read the Jaffe article re-posted to day 21.

              • tucsonwriter
                06/23/2010 at 1:25 AM

                The over-talky points Joe has made – about Robert’s thumb being tucked into his fist, and his comments to Katherine Wone about the stabbing, were more in line with him observing a murder.

                If you are working “close in” its hard to see certain details.

                I just think Joe and Dylan were on some sort of drug as part of the whole experience. I just don’t know what that drug would have been – other than cocaine that would keep them lucid through the night. Or meth. They are linked to meth. Does meth produce any sort of affect to the eyes? They must have been hyper as hell to clean all that up so fast. Is this the first meth attribute?

      • AnnaZed
        06/22/2010 at 11:10 PM

        I don’t think that you can make neat methodical incisions (Dr. Goslinoski’s “…perfect, slit-like defects”) in a person’s torso, one of which penetrated the sternum (bone), in a second or even several seconds.

        • chilaw79
          06/22/2010 at 11:15 PM

          Dr. Najam made a big point of how many layers there are between the skin and the heart. Also, he testified that to gain access to the pericardial sac that cardiac surgeons use an electric saw to go through the bone.

          I almost hoped that someone would ask him if he could slash the aortic root with one stab.

          And for those of you who are wondering, Dr. Najam clearly was a surgeon (who distinguished himself very clearly from a cardiologist–clearly viewed as inferior and with nothing to teach him).

          • Carolina
            06/23/2010 at 10:01 AM

            It’s good to see some stereotypes (Cardiothoracic surgeons in this case) hold true.

      • bigfatmike
        06/22/2010 at 11:30 PM

        I am sure that you have far more experience in these matters than I ever will, but…not so fast.

        Lets conduct a thought experiment. Get a pork loin, a pairing knife, and there must be some stiff card board around here somewhere.

        Cut out a piece of card board about the same diameter as a large orange.

        Now jab the pairing knife through the card board and into the pork loin. You can now discard the card board.

        Jab the knife twice more into the pork loin.

        Oh, and make each jab with surgical precision so that they are all exactly the same.

        Time??? One second? I don’t think so. What about 3 seconds, 5 seconds, 15???

        And by the way, if the pork loin were only asleep, I’ll bet he would try to smack you in the head and grab his chest. But that is my thought experiment. What about yours?

        • AnnaZed
          06/22/2010 at 11:45 PM

          My thoughts on the matter are pretty much along those lines, and I’ve butchered a carcass or two in my kitchen (sorry for the vulgarity of that but I have nothing else to compare it to). Striking bone is very difficult, even with a chicken. Given the presumption that a man would have considerably more upper body strength than I might bring to such an enterprise and adding in a soupçon of psychopathic rage I still can’t see it taking one second or even mere seconds, no way. Let’s hope Judge leibovitz has some experience in the kitchen.

          • tucsonwriter
            06/23/2010 at 12:59 AM

            Don’t try this at home!!!

            • chilaw79
              06/23/2010 at 9:45 AM

              You might hit yourself in the forehead while wiping the knife blade.

        • Tribe97
          06/22/2010 at 11:54 PM

          Add some ketchup to the layer between the cardboard and the pork line, and Dr. Lee will add this to his bag of food-based testifying tricks 😉

        • tucsonwriter
          06/23/2010 at 1:28 AM

          Cardboard and bone are not equivalent. It would take more than cardboard to simulate the bone that covers your heart.

          • bigfatmike
            06/23/2010 at 2:31 AM

            A point well taken.

            But I would expect bone to be more resistant than cardboard.

            And I would expect more resistance to require either more time or more force for penetration. More time directly supports my point. More force might also support my point in that it might make it much less likely that some could make the same three identical stab wounds.

            Besides its just a thought experiment. I would not expect anyone to reach a final conclusion on that. The best we might hope is that it might set very broad boundaries for our beliefs, or direct our thoughts to a more reasonable pursuits.

            Besides where else could I possibly talk about using a pork loin in a thought experiment.

      • Carolina
        06/23/2010 at 9:18 AM

        You are pounding on a table. What if you factor in the drag of flesh? What of pulling free of the sternum?

  7. novamomwithjd
    06/22/2010 at 10:13 PM

    Amen chilaw. Don’t act like you won the case before you actually win it.

  8. Bill Orange
    06/22/2010 at 10:13 PM

    “Weaver did say that Jeff Baker, her partner attempted to start an IV in Robert’s neck, unsuccessfully. Baker was positioned at Robert’s head and a fireman was at Roberts right side. Baker was administering oxygen and the fireman was performing chest compressions.”

    Wait a minute. Was Baker trying to start an IV in Robert’s neck, or was he administering oxygen? When you’re doing two-person CPR, one person “bags” the patient (i.e., put a face mask over the patient’s mouth and nose and squeezes it, in order to pump oxygen into the lungs) and one person does chest compressions. Generally, the only reason you’d stop “bagging” the patient is to try to intubate. You would NOT stop and try to put an IV into the neck. I think what happened here is an honest mis-recollection by Weaver. Here’s what I think happened: Baker was at the patient’s head with the oxygen, the fireman was on the patient’s right doing chest compressions, and Weaver was on his left trying to start on IV. Baker stopped at one point to try to intubate Wone (unsuccessfully), and Weaver is misremembering this as trying to start an IV in the neck. The prosecution really needs to press her on this–is it protocol to EVER try to start an IV in someone’s neck during an ambulance run? (I’m not being rhetorical here–I really don’t know.) I doubt it. The back of an ambulance is pretty hectic, and the neck is a VERY “tight” anatomical space. You can hit all kinds of things with a needle if the ambulance hits a pothole.

    • Michael
      06/22/2010 at 10:24 PM

      Weaver’s testimony as to what procedures were performed was backed up by the log records from the ambulance run. She stated that when she was unsuccessful in starting a line in his arm, that Baker attempted (once) to start one in his neck.

      It does seem like difficult multi-tasking, but the records were consistent with her testimony.

      – Michael, co-editor

      • Bill Orange
        06/22/2010 at 10:58 PM

        Yes, but Weaver is the one who wrote the record, right? So she may have just gotten it wrong at the time.

        In any case, if it’s in the EMT record, then I would say that the puncture wounds in the neck aren’t really inculpatory, since they could have come from the EMT. Which only leaves the ones in the feet. I wouldn’t put too much stock in those, to be honest. I have trouble with unexplained needle marks in two locations. I don’t really have any trouble with unexplained needle marks in one location. There’s usually so much going on during a trauma resuscitation that a lot of things are left out of the medical record. I think the defense has won me over on the this point.

        • Nora
          06/23/2010 at 7:45 AM

          Bill, some of the needle marks were pre-mortem. That has been established. And one thing everyone can agree on is that Robert was definitely dead by the time he was loaded onto the ambulance.

          The original affidavit states that the suspicious needle marks were all over the board, so to speak. All of these were the work of the EMT, even though some showed pre-mortem bruising? I don’t think so. And Kathy Wone confirmed that they were not on Robert’s body before that night.

          Taken with every other dubious element of this “random stabbing” (the clothes, hospital corners, small blood spots, folded towels, missing bloody towel, lack of any movement whatsoever on Robert’s part, etc., etc.), how can you dismiss a piece of evidence like this?

      • Carolina
        06/23/2010 at 9:21 AM

        The last time I had a line in my neck it had to be placed by a surgeon. I can’t imagine WTF Baker hoped to do in the back of an ambulance.

    • Timeline
      06/22/2010 at 10:27 PM

      That was my initial reaction to that quote as well — how could Baker be trying to get a line in and bagging at the same time? Something doesn’t add up.

    • chilaw79
      06/22/2010 at 11:00 PM

      There were a couple of occasions when EMT Weaver said that she had no specific recollection of some things happening. It was clear from the run notes that the EMTs tried to place lines unsuccessfully and failed to intubate Wone. As a result, no medications were given to Wone in the ambulance.

      EMT Weaver also testified that the other EMT worked the head and put Wone on oxygen. The fireman did CPR. I did not recall specific testimony about where the other EMT tried to place lines (but if others do, I would not argue).

      EMT Weaver’s testimony is not complete and she will be back tomorrow.

      • tucsonwriter
        06/23/2010 at 1:05 AM

        I would think it would be either very hard not to blur cases or very easy to remember one specific case. I am not an EMT. Also two people may have separate reactions. I was once in a very nasty plane landing with a then boyfriend. We landed in a crosswind and the plane almost flipped. My feeling was things went really fast, my boyfriend had things slow down and he remembered it in extreme detail.

        I wonder if some EMT’s are very accurate in recall and others tend to blur details, which is why defense called Weaver to the stand.

    • Daphne
      06/23/2010 at 8:33 AM

      This is an aside, but is anyone else troubled by the fact that the EMTs could not successfully insert an iv?

      • cinnamon
        06/23/2010 at 8:37 AM

        This was address a little further down in the comments by fairfax and bill o

    • Rapt in MD
      06/23/2010 at 10:13 AM

      Snarky semantic comment – I love how all these lying politicians have made “misremembering” part of our vocabulary these days…

  9. susan
    06/22/2010 at 10:57 PM

    This has been brought up time and again in the past, but since we were discussing the “under one second” time-warp blows and “haste” it made me think back to that moment of supposed discovery by Price and Zaborsky and all I can think re Price is: There is a stabbed man Dying in the room, who is supposedly your friend, and TWO phones. Why didn’t you pick up one of the damn phones and call 911? Because you say, you wanted to allay the hysteria of VZ.

    One hand-stabbed, dying friend AND phone in room for 911 call.
    Other hand-hysterical friend, phone UPSTAIRS for 911 call.

    How could he not immediately reach for the phone, hysterical partner be damned?

    • Mark M
      06/23/2010 at 12:13 AM

      Well you add that he was making no attempt to compress the wounds as suggested by the emergency operator when the EMT arrived. If it were my friend laying there I would be doing that continuously until the EMT arrived and told me to stop. I understand he was just observed sitting at the side of the bed. If the EMT who observed him is credited, then it seems like Joe knew that Robert was dead already. The whole idea of sending someone in another room not to mention a different floor of the house to call 911 is totally odd. If you are racing to save someone’s life, of course you want to immediately be able to hear what the 911 operator tells you to do.

      • AnnaZed
        06/23/2010 at 12:15 AM

        “The whole idea of sending someone in another room not to mention a different floor of the house to call 911 is totally odd. If you are racing to save someone’s life, of course you want to immediately be able to hear what the 911 operator tells you to do.”

        Yes, excellent point, that is (as you also point out) unless you believe the person to be dead and are lying about it.

        • galoon
          06/23/2010 at 6:54 AM

          Or if you don’t want the EMT’s to get there too fast. Because you don’t want your friend to live to tell the tale.

    • cinnamon
      06/23/2010 at 7:37 AM

      I still think Victor went to the 3rd floor to make the call so that Joe could listen in on the phone in the second floor guest room.

      • Carolina
        06/23/2010 at 9:26 AM

        Wouldn’t we then hear his coaching? There are several asides made by Victor, but we don’t hear anything from the other party.

  10. Jimbo
    06/22/2010 at 11:08 PM

    Thanks to those who offered input on the Cardiac Tamponade relevance…with regard to the time of death and the possible delay in the call to 911. It all makes so much more sense. In some ways…seeing this with fresh all too revealing, not to mention listening to the recording of the 911 call. Do I hear a Swann Song?

    • Ex Swann
      06/22/2010 at 11:42 PM

      EMT Weaver: “Robert’s extremities were pale and cool to the touch.”

      I see …

  11. DCULater
    06/22/2010 at 11:41 PM

    can anyone explain why victor screamed?

    • tucsonwriter
      06/23/2010 at 1:54 AM

      His whole life imploding on itself?

      • CDinDC (Boycott BP)
        06/23/2010 at 3:55 PM


    • cinnamon
      06/23/2010 at 7:39 AM

      Perhaps he heard all of the commotion and came down stairs to find Robert stabbed and being moved to the guest room. Perhaps he was there for the stabbing and the sight of it freaked him out and he screamed. Who knows?

    • Carolina
      06/23/2010 at 9:27 AM

      What would you do if you saw a friend with a knife in his chest and blood everywhere?

    • CDinDC (Boycott BP)
      06/23/2010 at 3:56 PM

      Who says it was Victor? Besides Victor.

  12. tucsonwriter
    06/22/2010 at 11:41 PM

    I found reading the testimony of a first time (virgin) expert for the defense refreshing. It is in such contrast to the more……ahem…. shall we say seasoned experts.

  13. tassojunior
    06/22/2010 at 11:59 PM

    “”District of Columbia EMT Tracey Weaver told the court that she had punctured Wone’s skin several times trying to start an IV the night of his death. Prosecutors and police had claimed those puncture marks came from a needle allegedly used to inject Wone with paralytic drugs.””


    • David
      06/23/2010 at 12:05 AM


      Keep up sweet man. Prosecutors dropped paralytic drugs in their case in chief before the trial started.


      • tucsonwriter
        06/23/2010 at 1:58 AM

        They dropped a lot. I would love to have an analysis of what they decided they could go for.

        The prosecution knows that Katherine Wone has a follow-up civil case. Does that get dropped it they are found guilty in this case? Or is it back to back litigation?

        • fairfax-law
          06/23/2010 at 3:44 AM

          The “standard of proof” differ in criminal v.s. civil trials. In criminal cases, the standard is “proof beyond a reasonable doubt” that the accused committed the crime(s) with which they are charged; in civil cases, the standard of proof is “by a preponderance of the evidence” the defendant(s) are liable. I assume Katherine Wone’s civil case is something along the lines of wrongful death, and perhaps more. O.J. Simpson is a perfect example: he was found “not guilty” in the criminal trial, but in a civil court on a wrongful death claim, he was found to be liable.
          As an aside, IMHO, I believe the defense in this case made a huge mistake foregoing a trial by jury. Not sure what D.C. rule is, but in Virginia, it would have taken only one juror out of a 12-member jury to be the hold out and have any or all of these guys found not guilty. Then, as luck would have it, they drew an extremely bright judge, with a professional resume perfectly suited for them to have their day in court.

          • dsquared
            06/23/2010 at 7:44 AM

            Perhaps they were concerned that potential jurors might not be able to look past the trouple’s lifestyle decisions and decide they were guilty based on them. To many religious conservatives, the living arrangement was “biblical” in a bad way; and even hearing about it might get you turned into a pillar of salt. The bench trial was a wise decision IMHO.

            • fairfax-law
              06/23/2010 at 3:33 PM

              I hear ya on the religious conservative perspective from the jury box, the whole biblical “homosexuality is an abomination” [though very difficult for me, personally, to even think the way they do]. And the “trouple” relationship is somewhat unusual, I think, whether straight, gay, or whatever. However, in D.C., pulling a panel of 12 [or 10 in D.C.??] such conservatives is just not going to happen. At the same time, it would only take one jury member who has and loves a family member who is gay, whose best friend’s sibling is gay, who works with someone who is gay, etc., who knows of bias or prejudice encountered by GLBTs, etc., and empathsize. That one person could be the sole holdout on a panel otherwise replete with bible thumpers. I feel this judge has done an excellent job in an extraordinarily unusual case, and believe with her at the helm, justice for Robert Wone will prevail.

        • fairfax-law
          06/23/2010 at 3:50 AM

          Forgot to answer the Q about follow-up civil case: my guess is that whether any or all of them are found guilty or not, the civil action can and will resume at the conclusion of this case, and again, the O.J. case is a perfect example. A finding of guilt in a criminal case is certainly admissible in the follow-up civil matter (in Virginia, but D.C./Federal rules may differ).

      • Carolina
        06/23/2010 at 12:47 PM

        Might not be off the table now, though, with the Good Dr. Lee opening up restraint.

    • cinnamon
      06/23/2010 at 7:45 AM

      There was also testimony that the puncture marks that are still unaccounted for by the EMT or the hospital ER workers were most likely administered pre-mortem. Robert was dead by the time he was in the ambulance. So those puncture marks (on the ankle, I believe) are still unexplained.

    • Carolina
      06/23/2010 at 9:28 AM

      Because they’re stupid, you think this bears repeating? The ankles are the ones unaccounted for.

  14. Bea
    06/23/2010 at 1:28 AM

    I hope that the rebuttal witnesses are well prepared. Because common sense lies with the prosecution on these charges, if the PEA issue is put to rest (or shown to be an illogical data point) then I see conspiracy and obstruction ‘sticking.’ Frankly, with Joe’s own comments about wiping blood, I suspect that if Deedrick does a reasonable rebuttal job, tampering will stick on Price as well. The knife at this point (in my mind) is really only relevant to tampering on Price – even if blown, it shouldn’t affect conspiracy or obstruction.

  15. tucsonwriter
    06/23/2010 at 2:08 AM

    I am concluding that I am westward ho time-wise and everyone has gone to bed. Safely. At this point I am the last person posting.

    Some thoughts about people that have come in to the discussion and disappeared- hmmm. I think they were deleted by the EDs. Lawmed and BenFranklin being the most notable in my tenure.

    I used to travel a lot for work…. your hackles are up when you are in strange territory. I never ever slept with a baseball bat under my bed. Or carried a second wallet. Like Robert Wone did. He was extremely street smart. He knew how to defend himself against the street.

    I think he, reasonably, trusted people who were not street people. That went to college with him.

    Robert Wone was in his early 30’s when he died. I haven’t cross checked my facts on this prior to posting. I know when I was that age I had a much more optimistic view of humanity than I have now.

  16. fairfax-law
    06/23/2010 at 3:28 AM

    Doea anyone know WHY neither EMT Weaver nor Baker could get an I.V. in Robert?? EMT Weaver testified she tried twice to insert an I.V. in his arm, but was unsuccessful, and that then EMT Baker tried to get one going in or near his neck, but that attempt also failed. There has been no explanation for this. So I was wondering: could significant blood loss (per Medical Examiner’s testimony, several liters of blood, for lack of a better qwik description, have been “unaccounted for”) cause Robert’s veins to collapse, thus making it difficult to find a vein in which to insert an I.V.?? Anyone have any ideas about this?

    • dsquared
      06/23/2010 at 7:48 AM

      Pulseless victim, loss of blood, veins collapse. And remember, the EMTs weren’t working on a stable well lit platform like a hospital bed.

    • Leo
      06/23/2010 at 7:51 AM

      Utter lack of blood pressure (heart not beating) makes veins flaccid and receded into the extremities?

    • Bill Orange
      06/23/2010 at 8:14 AM

      Some people are “hard sticks” to begin with, and anything that reduces blood volume (like blood loss or dehydration) will make it harder to place an IV.

  17. Annoying
    06/23/2010 at 4:05 AM

    I wish there was a polling function at this site, I wonder how what people think about how often Victor and Joseph have sex with each other these days (with or without Dylan being in the room). If ever.

  18. TS
    06/23/2010 at 6:34 AM

    Do these three still live together, do they still have custody of the kids. Is it possible that they will benifit from a book or movie deal. Anyone can see all three are lying about what they know. People don’t break into someone’s home just to find a body to stab 3 times and then leave without taking anything. If Joe Price removed the knife from Robert’s body – then whats the question about the knife?

    • Carolina
      06/23/2010 at 9:32 AM

      They never had custody. The kids live with their mother and her partner.

      As for the knife, Joe can’t decide if he removed the knife or not. Maybe we should do a poll to see which would be most beneficial for him to stick with.

    • tucsonwriter
      06/23/2010 at 6:17 PM

      In my opinion, the investigators believe the murder weapon was Dylan Ward’s knife and that Dylan Ward was at the other end of it when it went into Robert Wone’s body. THAT knife is gone.

  19. Bill Orange
    06/23/2010 at 8:36 AM

    Thoughts after a night’s sleep:

    Dr. Najam was a highly credible witness, but he did little to help the defense. Their “instantaneous incapacitation” theory is pretty much gone–every expert who’s testified has stated that Robert would have been conscious for a minimum of 5-10 seconds after he was stabbed.

    EMT Weaver’s testimony was a HUGE blow to the prosecution. She stated that EMT Baker was the person who made the needle marks in Robert Wone’s neck, directly contradicting Baker’s own testimony. She appears to be backed up by her contemporaneous written report, in which she clearly documented this. On the narrow point of the needle marks in the neck, I think her testimony has thoroughly discredited this piece of evidence for the prosecution.

    I think the bigger problem she presents for the prosecution is that she makes them look unbelievably sloppy. Did they even interview her? She was one of only three people in the back of the ambulance with the victim, she directly contradicts one of the other two people, and the prosecution appears to have been totally blindsided by her testimony. I’ve had a lot of fun mocking the high-priced defense team over the last week, but I think they’ve just earned their money here. The defense will be closing its case with a witness that makes the prosecution look breathlessly incompetent.

    • Carolina
      06/23/2010 at 9:35 AM

      The neck line was never in question, BillO. The ones that are unaccounted for are the pre mortem ankle sites, which everyone (but Lawmed) says are not protocol and were not a result of attempts to resuscitate.

      • Bill Orange
        06/23/2010 at 10:18 AM

        Are you sure? I thought there was a chest line done in the ER, but I don’t remember anyone ever saying they tried to put a needle in the neck.

      • KiKi
        06/23/2010 at 10:39 AM

        Obviously this is not in evidence and I am have no medial knowledge but I was discussing the whole ankle/neck line issue with my cousin who is an EMT and he said that placing a line in the saphenous vein in the ankle is an acceptable protocol during life saving measures and that often emts will attempt lines at various spots quickly without noting exactly what they are doing – as he explained it “we are trying to save the guy not so much worrying about what the lawyers are going to ask.”

        I Googled “saphenous vein protocol iv” and found this article which seems to confirm the use of the ankle:

        And to save everyone time: I understand this is not in evidence, I understand that the EMTS did not testify they used the ankle but I am pointing out that Lawmed is not the only one who said this is protocol.

        I think a more useful argument for the defense is that we have no idea where those marks came from. It could have been the EMTs or it could have happened prior to getting to Swann St or prior to going to bed. I know Kathy said he did not have them when he left but she was not with him all day. And again it is not the defense’s job to show where the ankle marks came from, it is the prosecutions’s job to show where they came from and I don’t think anyone has done that yet…

        • chilaw79
          06/23/2010 at 10:47 AM

          Weaver clearly said it was not protocol for a DCFD EMT to place a line at the ankle and she did not try to do so. Baker was “working the head” so he was nowhere close to the ankle and the fireman engaged in CPR throughout the run to the hospital.

          If the EMTs did not place an IV in the ankle and the hospital did not, I would say the prosecution has some unexplained needle marks for the judge to consider because there is a clear chain of custody of the body of Mr. Wone from Swann Street to the hospital.

          • KiKi
            06/23/2010 at 10:55 AM

            Right but as a lawyer you are well aware, I am sure, that “unexplained needle marks” are not an advantage to the prosecution unless they can prove those needle marks happened within the home and somehow contributed to RW’s death or the subsequent obstruction/conspiracy. Or that the prosecution proved that the defendants know how the needle marks got there.

            The needle marks are a great conspiracy theory – dramatic fact for people trying to figure out what happened but, IMHO, they do not help the prosecutions case. especially in front of Judge like Judge L who will follow the law to a T.

            • chilaw79
              06/23/2010 at 11:13 AM

              I think the judge can look at the facts that the EMTs and the hospital have documented their needle marks, the testimony from Kathy Wone regarding her husband, and conclude that if there are needle marks that are not accounted for those needle marks were made by someone at Swann Street. This also helps to explain the apparent lack of response to the stabbing from Robert Wone and how it appears he never moved in bed.

              While Judge L is a stickler, I do not think she has abandoned making reasonable inferences. She has some scientific basis for concluding that something else is going on here, including the detected xylenes in the toxicology screens.

              • Hoya Loya
                06/23/2010 at 11:26 AM

                But with paralytics excluded from the trial, aren’t the needle marks limited to being odd facts about the condition of the body, perhaps supporting the inference that this was something other than an assault by an intruder, but not much more? Wouldn’t the inference that they were from the administration of paralytics be off limits?

                • Carolina
                  06/23/2010 at 12:56 PM

                  Are they off limits, if Dr. Lee opened the door to martial arts neck pinch restraints?

                • CDinDC (Boycott BP)
                  06/23/2010 at 12:59 PM

                  That’s what I was thinking, HL….I don’t get why the defense is bringing it up. Smoke screen, perhaps? Muddy the waters with non-essential mumbo jumbo?

        • Bill Orange
          06/23/2010 at 11:01 AM

          I’ve put IVs in feet before, so it’s certainly not outside the realm of possibility. I think it’s unlikely that the EMTs did it, since there was no one at Wone’s feet in the ambulance. More likely would be someone in the ER. You can only fit so many people around someone’s head and torso, and it looks like they were doing a LOT of work on him (intubation, two chest tubes, one chest line, one groin line, one puncture to the chest). It wouldn’t surprise me if the defense could get someone to say that they were trying to put an IV in the foot, because that’s the only part of the body they could get to. It also wouldn’t surprise me if the nurse didn’t chart this. However, the current testimony is that no one did it. If the defense wants to argue that the foot punctures came from the ER, they need to put someone on the stand to say that they MIGHT have tried to put an IV in his foot.

          • KiKi
            06/23/2010 at 11:09 AM

            I think whether they get that person on the stand or not – the entire first part of your post is proper closing argument.

            • Bill Orange
              06/23/2010 at 11:24 AM

              Like I’ve said before, I could find reasonable doubt on any one piece of evidence in this trial. But there’s just no way I can find reasonable doubt on ALL of the evidence collectively.

              • KiKi
                06/23/2010 at 11:27 AM

                Even the defense attorney in me can agree with that.

          • Carolina
            06/23/2010 at 12:57 PM

            I think if they could get them, they would.

          • Carolina
            06/23/2010 at 12:59 PM

            Why do those two appear to be pre mortem, while the rest are post-? Isn’t that awfully convenient, that the only two needle punctures that are unaccounted for are also the only two that show evidence Robert was still alive when he received them?

        • Carolina
          06/23/2010 at 12:54 PM

          Testimony was that the wounds were pre mortem, and that absolutely everyone says they didn’t make them. Kathy also knows he didn’t visit the doctor that day. As for the prosecution showing where they came from, we both know this is impossible. They can, however, show they didn’t come from any reasonable source.

          • KiKi
            06/23/2010 at 1:06 PM

            Then they have not met their burden in on this issue. It is not impossible. It is a legal standard that should prevent speculation and innuendo from causing conviction.

            1. I think time of death is in and of itself a point of contention. And I am not going to get into each point as it is being discussed in length on Day 21 update. But suffice to say time of death is far from conclusive in my mind.

            2. the only people that say they did not make them were the 2 in the ambulance. See Bill Os response above – there are a lot of people that did not testify that had access to the body. If the prosecution had “everyone” who attempted to save RWs life in the ER testify they did not make them than you would be correct in saying “absolutely everyone says they did not make them.”

            3. Because he did not go to the doctor does not mean that the marks were not made prior to the arrival at the house.

            4. Reasonable is a standard that gets to benefit the defense not the prosecution.

        • Eagle
          06/23/2010 at 1:27 PM

          Good points.
          But –it has not been established that Robert went to bed.(which implies on his own steam.)
          We do know that somehow, someway, his body ended up on the bed (in a very unusual position).
          However, we do not know how it got there.

    • chilaw79
      06/23/2010 at 10:44 AM

      It was clear the prosecution had interviewed Weaver. However, the defense was on their feet immediately, objecting to any discussion of her subjective impressions regarding the lack of blood, the coolness of the skin, etc. The prosecution attempted to elicit testimony that Weaver knew this case was “going to come back.”

      It seemed pretty clear to me that the defense wanted her to say there was PEA and limit her testimony to that area only. However, the defense put in the run sheet, giving the prosecution the ability to cross-examine Weaver on everything reflected on the run sheet. The prosecution did this to good effect.

  20. Dave
    06/23/2010 at 1:15 PM

    While this isn’t related to the knife wounds I can say that many, many people have seen Price get into a drug induced rage. For example, he would routinely snort large amounts of a white powder at the Apex club and then go into the men’s room and have sex with at least a dozen men there. It was all in the open and not hidden. He was the sort of person who got extremely angry at the slightest provocation when high. He was not the friendly, I’m having a good time sort of drug addict. He was a person to be avoided at all costs because you would be fearful.

    • NoMore
      06/24/2010 at 11:02 AM

      Before saying anything else I do not know the defendants, the victim or his family, anyone else associated with the trial, or anyone who has posted a comment.

      Long, L O N G time lurker here who has spent much of the last few months catching up on the articles and comments on this site, having now nearly read all of it. I’ve seen some outlandish comments posted but held my fire — but not this time.

      I have been to Apex nightclub many times. And while I have on occasion observed drugs being consumed in brief trips to bathrooms stalls and have seen the occasional quick trist in a bathroom stall (activities I’ve also observed in clubs catering to heterosexuals), the suggestion that Joe Price — or anyone else, for that matter — snorted “large amounts” of drugs and then went into the men’s room “to have sex with at least a dozen men there… in the open” is at best a slanderous exaggeration and at worst an outrageous lie. Patrons caught using drugs at Apex are banned from the club, just as the signs at the entrance to the club promise. Management of the club does not permit public sex anywhere in the club. I have on many occasions personally witnessed management and club personnel enforce these policies. On many occasions I have seen on-duty DC Metro police officers in the club. I don’t know what axe “Dave” has to grind against Joe Price, Apex, or gay clubs in general, but I do know that what he claims in the manner that he claims it simply DOES NOT HAPPEN.

      And before anyone asks, I am in no way associated in any manner to the owners/management of Apex or any other gay bar/club anywhere.

      • Carolina
        06/24/2010 at 11:07 AM

        Many of us had the same problem with that claim. It’s easy to say such things on a blog, but much harder to back it up. I don’t think anyone with any understanding of the realities of being gay believed it whole cloth.

      • Former Criminal Sex Offense Prosecutor
        06/24/2010 at 11:32 AM

        Thank you for your posting. Full disclosure, I am not gay, I have never been to the Apex, I don’t know “Dave” AND for your peace of mind, I have never let any of the repeated mentions/suggestions about alleged meth or coke use enter my mind in thinking about the murder of Robert Wone.

        FWIW, I do not believe any of the other legally oriented commenters/posters ever did either.

        The meth use allegation is the one that is the most patently ridiculous. Tweekers always have bad skin from picking at imaginary irritations until they are open wounds. They look prematurely aged, very significantly so.

        In every photograph I have ever seen, The Trouple have uniformly clear skin, zero puffiness around the eyes,etc.

      • Hoya Loya
        06/24/2010 at 11:43 AM

        No More:

        Thanks for speaking up. I’m sorry one of us regulars didn’t do so earlier. I’ve posted general cautions about these sorts of statements several times, but missed this one.

        Thanks also for backing up your statement with some seriously thorough facts. Sounds like they run a tight ship.

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