What Did Victor Know…

…And When Did he Know it?   Parsing Zaborsky.

Two minutes and forty-five seconds into Victor Zaborsky’s 911 call, the dispatcher asks him if Robert is still breathing, a question he repeats to the nearby Joe Price, who is providing the first-aid to their stricken friend. 

No response from Price.  Fifteen seconds go by until the dispatcher repeats her question; Zaborsky finally answers, “He’s breathing, but we need help now.”

As noted, this element may complicate the defense team’s cardiac surgery experts are to testify that a single knife thrust into Robert’s chest immobilized and killed him instantly, perhaps within a heartbeat.

But that’s for the docs to spin.  What may be more troublesome for the defense is the other inconsistencies between Zaborsky’s call, his interview with detectives and what came out of Sarah Morgan’s testimony.

Zaborsky’s friend (or ex-friend) of 15 years, Morgan testified that when she left 1509 at 6:00pm on August 2, she set the ‘away’ function on the alarm system because no one was at home.  We learned this on AUSA Glenn Kirschner’s redirect.  The away setting enables the motion detectors inside.

But a half hour later, at 6:30pm, the house was abuzz again.  Zaborsky got home and he had company.

On page 5, line 21 of Zaborsky’s interview, he said that when he arrived home from Dulles at 6:30pm, “Dylan was home.  He was exercising up in his room.”  This comes up again in part II of Zaborsky’s transcript, page 3, line 9, “Dylan was home.  He was exercising in his room…”

But nowhere in any of Ward’s statements do we hear about his day or what time he came home.  Ward must have breezed into the house just after Morgan left, just missing her, and began his workout pretty quickly, so that by the time Zaborsky arrived just a few minutes later.  Just another coincidence in a night full of them.

There’s plenty of daylight between two other elements in Zaborsky’s retelling of the night. On page 11, line 2, Zaborsky says he came downstairs while on the 911 call and that:

“Joe was with Robert and he was, he was applying pressure to the wound already — the 911 operator had told me to take a towel and apply pressure to the wound, so I had gone into the bathroom and grabbed a towel and my robe when I came downstairs.

I gave the towel to Joe and I was still on the phone with the operator.

In his part II, page 27, line 22, Zaborsky said,

“So I grabbed a towel and I grabbed my robe and I went downstairs.  And at that point Joe was already applying pressure to the wound.  I gave him another towel.”

Identical recollections but still daylight:  What exactly was Price already applying pressure to Robert’s wounds with if it was the towel that Zaborsky brought down to use.  From the crime scene photos shown, there were two white towels on the back of the desk chair in the guestroom; both folded neatly, neither disturbed.

Zaborsky said gave Price “another towel.” Simple math says that equals at least two towels, but only one has been entered into evidence.  Will the defense team conjure up a towel like they did with the carving knife they found in Seattle?

At four minutes and fifteen seconds into the 911 call, a distracted Zaborsky tells the dispatcher, “The person has one of our knives.”  The dispatcher responded by asking him, “The person that stabbed him ran out the door with a knife?  Zaborsky says, “I think so.”

This real-time crisis that Zaborsky reported on the 911 call differed from considerably from what he told the detectives hours later.

Zaborsky’s statement made to the MPD detectives hours later (page 10, line 1), in which he described his first look at Robert on the sofa-bed, “His eyes were rolled back.  He looked very pale.”   That description doesn’t seem to match what one might expect from a knife attack victim who was still breathing more than three minutes later.

And it’s anyone’s guess what Zaborsky saw when he first laid eyes on Robert, if and where he saw the knife.  In part II of his interview, page 12, line 8, Zaborsky admitted confusion over what he saw at first glance, “I’m confused now because I think I saw the knife the first time I came down the steps, but I really looked so quickly and was hysterical that I don’t know whether I did or not.” 

Yet, as indicated above and two pages earlier in the transcript, he apparently had a good enough view to see Robert’s “eyes rolled back,” and on the call, he was able to confirm to the dispatcher that the intruder made off with the knife.  Again, it’s anyone’s guess.

This has become a mind-bending task so feel free to add any possibile inconsistencies, and this being Washington, they can be with or without plausible deniability.

-posted by Craig

191 comments for “What Did Victor Know…

  1. Deb
    06/08/2010 at 11:46 AM

    Hopefully Kirschner will pull things so well together in his closing. Well done, Craig!

    • Mark
      06/14/2010 at 3:51 PM

      I’m really disturbed that he reports a missing knife. The police found an incomplete knife set among Dylan Ward’s possessions, and concluded that the missing one was the correct size to inflict the wounds. How did Zaborsky already know that a knife was gone?

  2. Lamont Cranston
    06/08/2010 at 1:03 PM

    I hope Judge Lynn is as savvy as you, Craig. If she is, it’s quite possible Joe, Victor and Dylan will actually do time.

  3. Bill Orange
    06/08/2010 at 1:07 PM

    I’m willing to give Victor an awful lot of leeway on the content (but not the timing) of the 911 call. He sounded hysterical, he SAID he was hysterical, and he had a very good reason to be hysterical. Logic pretty much goes out the window at times like that, so I can easily believe he thought that the intruder still had the knife, even though he had actually seen the knife in the room. I’ll also cut him slack on what he said about the towel(s). Maybe he thought there were two when there was only one.

    Frankly, the audio of the 911 call is the only thing about Victor that I really understand: He found someone stabbed to death in his guest bedroom, and he lost it. I get that. What I don’t get is letting your partner’s BDSM dom move into your house, letting your partner’s unstable brother have a house key, or helping your partner try to get away with covering up a murder.

    • Craig
      06/08/2010 at 2:19 PM

      Bill O: I disagree somewhat. Zaborsky was clearly in the guestroom when the dispatcher asked if the intruder ran out with the knife. How could he have not seen it?

      My 911 call timeline shows that for the first 2 minutes Zaborsky may have been on the third floor, but by 2:45, he asked Price if Robert was breathing, indicating both were in the guestroom together.

      At the 5:52 mark, Zaborsky says (of the ambulance), “Here they are… I’m going downstairs.”

      That leads me to believe he’s with Robert and Price from 2:35 – 5:52. So, when he was asked about the knife at 4:15, it should’ve been clearly visible to him whether the weapon was on, near, or next to Robert, or even perhaps on the nightstand by then.

      He’s asking Price questions somewhat calmly, not shouting. They seemed close to each other in the not-very-large guestroom. So close to Price, that at 5:18 Zaborsky asks the dispatcher for the time, and he then repeats, again without raising his voice, “11:54” to his nearby partner.

      (And, if he was that close, Zaborsky should also have been able to see if Price was wiping away any blood from Robert).

      The guestroom was lit up and the knife would’ve been hard to miss no matter what the state of chaos was. I’ll give him leeway for not recalling the point hours later with the detectives, but in real-time, I have a hard time believing the knife was not in Zaborsky’s line of sight; at the time, he sounded too engaged with Price to not have noticed it.

      • Bill Orange
        06/08/2010 at 8:14 PM

        I’m still willing to cut him slack on this point. If the knife was already on the night stand, he might not have seen it. Yes, it was right in front of his face, but so was a body, and that tends to draw your attention.

        What I really don’t understand is why we don’t hear Joe talking in the background. (e.g., “Stay with me Robert! The ambulance is on it’s way!”)

        • Bill 2
          06/08/2010 at 8:22 PM

          We don’t hear Joe saying that because he didn’t realize, at the time, how much it would help the scenario they were creating. No doubt, in the ensuing years, he wishes he had added that bit of drama.

      • Ex Swann
        06/08/2010 at 8:50 PM

        . . . I seriously doubt they would qualify for the series “Hoarders”. And, well, he is standing there in the same (10′ x 16′) guestroom with Joe “Must have been the intruder” Price and a bloody dead friend. I think I would have noticed A FREAKING BLOODY KNIFE whether it was in my guest’s chest or four feet away on the bedside table . . . Even if I were staring at Joe “It was the floating intruder” Price’s face as he was mouthing my script to me as I spoke . . .

        Buy the way, has anyone counted how many of the 911 Operator’s questions Victor repeats OUT LOUD before he answers them?

        • Pshep
          06/08/2010 at 9:07 PM

          I noticed that, too, a couple of days ago. I can picture Joe giving Victor mouthed instructions, hand signals, furious nodding, etc. throughout that call.

          • Craig
            06/08/2010 at 10:26 PM

            Pshep: That was my first impression on hearing the call over a year ago, as if Zaborsky was carrying on two different conversations at once, one with 911 and the one with Price either whispered or in sign language.

            In court they played the enhanced version of the tape which didn’t add much, more static than anything else it seems, but I seem to recall on our mp3, you can faintly hear Price prompting Zaborsky to ask the time five minutes in, at 11:54. That has never made sense, to anyone.

            And the more I think about it, the more curious it seems that Ward was completely useless and conspicuously absent during the crisis, sitting in the TV room being asked to do nothing and volunteering to do nothing. They were trying to make him an equal member of the family? Ward hardly rose to the occasion and stepped up when it counted. Some family.

      • Nora
        06/09/2010 at 7:13 AM

        Why, oh why did Victor say the intruder had “one of our knives”? If he hadn’t seen the knife in question, if he truly thought the elf had run out the door with it (or doused himself with pixie dust and flown over the gate, whatever), then why would he assume the knife was from their household? (In his own words he was too “afraid” to go downstairs….)

        Hysteria can’t explain it; it’s too specific, and pushy, a detail. It sounds like someone hurriedly cooking up a narrative. Maybe the two authors should’ve taken fiction workshopping advice from Dylan.

        I’ve tried for months to think of an innocent explanation, but can’t. Anyone?

        • christy love
          06/09/2010 at 9:49 AM

          I am so sick of pretending an intruder did this I could puke! Cases like this make me understand waterboarding. I wouldn’t condone it, but I understand it.

          • bonsource
            06/09/2010 at 12:07 PM

            I agree. I can’t imagine anyone in that situation saying “The person has one of our knives.” Even the dispatcher uses the non-specific “a knife”. If it had been me, it would have been “We think he has a knife” (how would I know he was using one of my knives anyway?); hence the fear to go downstairs. Victor knew to much to be non-specific is seems.

        • leo
          06/09/2010 at 2:05 PM

          I assumed that Victor was simply repeating something Joe was telling him; there seemed to be a lot of back-and-forth between them during the 911 call, as others have noted.

          • Nora
            06/09/2010 at 2:18 PM

            But as far as Victor knows (from what he says on the tape) there is no knife on the scene. He tells the dispatcher that he thinks the “intruder” ran out with it.

            If that’s the case, why would he accept that Joe knew it was one of their knives? Remember, they went down to Robert’s room, found Robert, and Joe told Victor to call 911 “Immediately”! No looking around for missing knives. Victor knows more than he’s pretending to know at this point, and it slips out.

            We don’t hear Joe during the call; if he’s whispering or signaling during such a crisis, that’s another suspicious sign.

  4. JM
    06/08/2010 at 1:31 PM

    I’m know I’m a bit off the topic, but I haven’t seen this addressed in any of the posts I’ve read so far……why didn’t the police use luminal to detect the cleaned up blood at the townhouse or is that just something you see on TV?

    • Rapt in MD
      06/08/2010 at 1:52 PM

      I believe I remember reading that a chemical of this sort was used througout the scene, however, there is some discussion that it was used incorrectly and will likely be used by the defense. I believe these chemicals also “light up” on things other than blood which will open the door for further dispute.

      • First Time Reader
        06/09/2010 at 9:06 AM

        My understanding is that the various reagents (e.g., Ashley’s, luminol, Blustar) work better on different kinds of surfaces and each has limitations. Luminol, for example, reacts to bleach in the same way it reacts to blood. As a result, if you use luminol on a crime scene that has been cleaned up with bleach, it glows.

        Unfortunately, my Google research did not get much farther than that.

        • Faye Lewis
          06/09/2010 at 6:04 PM

          Interesting. Who would clean hardwood or wallpaper with bleach?

  5. Bea
    06/08/2010 at 1:54 PM

    JM – the MPD screwed up and used Ashley’s Reagent thus screwing up the possibility that Luminol would work.

    Victor’s 911 call is fraught with problems, starting with the “we think an intruder” lingo. “We” and “intruder” establishes in my mind that there was a concocted story in progress. That plus the telltale “11:43” mistake makes it clear that something was amiss in the stories. Yes, the stories from the defendants matched – but possibly too closely. They seem rote. The men even KNOW of the discrepancies in the stories – Joe tells the police that Victor heard a second chime but he did not. HOW did he KNOW this? Obviously a mistake on their parts yet the subtleties are the most telling aspect.

    More of the same: that Victor would know it was one of “their” knives. He is either too distracted or doesn’t have the story down pat when the 911 dispatcher asks if the intruder ‘left’ with the knife.

    I am stunned that Victor tells the dispatcher that the back door is unlocked (only available in the extended call). This is damning – no one has been downstairs at this point other than Victor (apparently) running down to let in the EMTs. Did he pause and look at the door across the living room (through the kitchen island)? He claims to be too afraid to go downstairs. AND the trio is clear that Dylan first noticed this after the cops have arrived and sent them all downstairs.

    I hope the closing makes mention of each inconsistency – this is not a case of one smoking gun but many, many inexplicable inconsistencies and incredibly unlikely coincidences.

    • christy love
      06/08/2010 at 2:27 PM

      Bea,

      What is Ashley’s Reagent? Why did they use it and how did it screw everything up?

      Thanks

    • Ivan
      06/08/2010 at 3:18 PM

      Sometimes I think Victor doesn’t really know what happened on the second floor but has accepted Joe Price’s explanation as truth. Many other people would have said ‘I don’t really know what happened I’m just telling you what Joe told me’. But now he’s in this too deep. And I agree with the “we” remark. Associate that with JP’s interview when he keeps saying “we didn’t do it”.

      • Bill Orange
        06/08/2010 at 8:22 PM

        I think there’s an outside chance that Victor walked in on Joe and Dylan moving the body into the guest bedroom from somewhere else. I agree with Bea that the cover story was still “in progress” during the 911 call, and this theory would fit with this.

        I think the original story–and I think what they initially told Victor–was that Robert was stabbed on the back patio and either walked or was dragged up to the second floor. I think that Victor thought that this story was total bullshit, which is why he seems to tentative in the first part of the 911 call.

        I think that Joe realized that if even Victor wasn’t buying it, he needed a better story, and the ninja intruder was born. The big problem with this theory is that it doesn’t explain the delay in calling 911. Thoughts?

        • Elizabeth
          06/08/2010 at 8:45 PM

          No blood trail at all – even if you move the body from somewhere to the bathroom to shower the body, there would be at least a drop somewhere.

          • Ohio
            06/09/2010 at 10:04 AM

            We will never know what the blood evidence might have shown.

        • Bea
          06/08/2010 at 9:14 PM

          I agree that Victor walked into some scene, whether it was moving the body or not. But I agree that there was likely a ‘move’ – likely from the shower – and that a ‘playmat’ was likely used (which would help with there not being a trail). I suspect too (and this sounds so cold) that most of the blood went down the drain – considering how little made its way to the bed, I doubt that the move resulted in much of a blood trail.

          I suspect that Victor only knew the bare minimums of the events of the evening. My guess would be that Joe told Victor what he wanted him to know and that Victor just accepted it. Victor threw in with Joe in that moment. If pressed, I’d say that WHY Victor screwed up the knife part is that he was told something to the effect of “XYZ happened to Robert and we don’t have a choice here. We got rid of [Dylan’s/other identifier] knife and we’re using one of the kitchen knives to give us a chance.”

          If my guess is correct and there was a Plan A that got changed because of the scream and Plan B was instigated, they had done virtually ALL of the cleaning before Victor screamed – if not, they’d have left whatever blood intact because it makes more sense that he bled when the ‘intruder’ stabbed him. The lack of blood may be the downfall of the defense, or certainly one of the primary blows.

          My guess is that the Thomases would have remembered if the ambulances arrived RIGHT after the scream, so I’ll guess that it was 11:20 when Victor screamed. That gave them the necessary time to come up with the story and get it down with Joe telling Victor that he’d fill him in later. In considering how the men were described by EMTs, it wouldn’t surprise me that they did shower (Joe and Dylan or whomever killed/assisted in cleaning) and then take the kitchen knife and wiped blood on it, and disposed of the weapon, towel, and the digital/video cameras by whatever means possible. That would give them roughly 25-35 minutes before the 11:49 call made by Victor.

          My guess too is that Victor never even considered NOT backing up Joe. I have no idea why he’s not come forward and gotten immunity except that he is genuinely in love and figures there is a chance that he and Joe will be exonerated (and if not, that perhaps he’ll get his sentence commuted if he testifies in the murder trial).

          All my guesses – and far more than you asked!

          • Clio
            06/08/2010 at 9:39 PM

            “Sometimes it’s hard to be a woman
            Giving all your love to just one man
            You’ll have bad times
            And he’ll have good times
            Doing things that you don’t understand
            But if you love him you’ll forgive him
            Even though he’s hard to understand
            And if you love him
            Oh be proud of him
            ‘Cause after all he’s just a man
            Stand by your man
            Give him two arms to cling to
            And something warm to come to
            When nights are cold and lonely
            Stand by your man
            And tell the world you love him
            Keep giving all the love you can
            Stand by your man
            Stand by your man
            And show the world you love him
            Keep giving all the love you can
            Stand by your man”

            • susan
              06/08/2010 at 10:24 PM

              Bea, I think you and Craig have done a brilliant breakdown of the inconsistencies in Victor’s statements and actions.

              But I would reckon he’s more involved than just coming upon a scene. He knows the type of “family” he’s involved with. He knows his “partner” is a slave and into “torture.” He must know about Dylan’s machinery and knives, etc. in D’s room. He’s got to know all about Michael. He seems to already know a lot of their secrets.

              Clio, my take is more Talking Heads’ “Stop Making Sense” with “Psycho Killer” being the top track.

              • Victoria's Secrets
                06/09/2010 at 2:38 AM

                Of course Vicky knew full well what was going on in his household. The “Victoria the Innocent” mantra constantly promoted on this site wears very thin with people more familiar with gay multipartner household dynamics.

                • Bea
                  06/09/2010 at 4:26 AM

                  Victoria, I don’t doubt that Victor knew all about the BDSM but I doubt even Joe or Dylan ‘knew’ before Robert’s arrival that a man would end up dead that night.

                • Faye Lewis
                  06/09/2010 at 6:06 PM

                  Yes, because all gay multipartner households function exactly the same way.

            • Kate
              06/09/2010 at 9:24 AM

              Clio – Victor now has the perfect theme song. Please do send him a bill for image consultation. Seriously, I think that’s loyal Victor to a tee.

              And three cheers for the late, great Tammy Wynette.

              Note to readers: this song sounds best when performed with a heavy twang, after having imbibed a tad too much wine, of course.

              Kate

          • Bill Orange
            06/08/2010 at 10:23 PM

            That sounds about right to me.

          • Ex Swann
            06/09/2010 at 3:35 AM

            Bea –

            I agree with almost all of the above but, question …

            Let’s say Dylan’s knife actually wasn’t there and we know the ME can’t rule out the knife found. If he/they were playing with an incapacitated Robert and he woke enough to protest and Joe panicked. What if Joe went downstairs and got the knife from the set to save his career. If Joe were sweating, and excited, and high and clutching the knife while running up the stairs … would he leave enough DNA on the knife during that process and the stabbing to be detected?

            If he suspected he may have, it would explain why he removed the knife from Robert’s body … To explain away his DNA.

            • Bea
              06/09/2010 at 4:45 AM

              Hey Ex. I suspect there will be evidence to show that the third knife has ALWAYS been missing from the set – crazy to make the statement if he can’t back it up. But assuming the murder weapon wasn’t “Dylan’s” knife, I still think it was another knife given that the blade length is longer than the stab wounds – considering the force necessary, it certainly seems likely that at least one of the wounds would show the knife plunged to its handle. If not “Dylan’s” knife then it was either another knife that was more personal to one of the defendants OR it had been used so often in sex play that the defendants assumed it would show their DNA – can you imagine how damning it would have been had the knife had (for example) old semen on it?

              I think your theory of why Joe may have killed Robert (to save himself, essentially) is quite logical, but I doubt the kitchen knife has Joe’s DNA on it, instead only his fingerprints. I’ve heard someone suggest that if one actually stabs someone with that amount of force (times 3) that the killer’s DNA might well be on the knife – but Joe’s smart, and while not a DNA expert, I think he wouldn’t have allowed the cops to find a knife that might have more than his fingerprints on it.

              While this is chilling to think about, and assuming that Joe was the one to wipe blood on the knife, why did he not simply insert the knife in the wound? This is one of the few things which makes me wonder if possibly someone else did the stabbing – if Joe can’t bring himself to do this, why not? Maybe it’s because he knows enough about fishtailing and other “science” issues, or maybe he just doesn’t have it in him. Sure seems like a better ‘plan’ than to leave towel marks on a knife (and miss getting it on the blade edge, if I recall testimony correctly). But too, it makes his ‘boasting’ of pulling the knife from his chest even more confusing. I think that particular claim (assuming W-5 is believable, along with Tara Ragone as validation) may be what pushes the Judge over the line. While most of the elements are debatable, or rather that there are possible arguments or other ‘explanations’ – (1) lack of blood; (2) delay in calling being the two most damning other than this one – if the Judge believes the knife was tampered with, Joe’s claim to two people on two occasions (once that morning and once days/weeks later on the phone with Tara)that he pulled the knife from Robert’s chest can’t be explained away. He’s all but raised his hand to the question ‘who wiped blood on the fake murder weapon?’

              • Kate
                06/09/2010 at 9:53 AM

                Bea, many thanks for your excellent analysis, yet again.

                But I do have a question about inserting the planted knife into one of the wounds: wouldn’t that be detectable during post mortem?

                The lack of blood is certainly the most compelling “non-evidence”. Even if tamponaede occurred, there would have been cast-off from the three very forceful stab wounds as Det. Waid (I think) testified to last week. And there wasn’t any signs of such on the walls, ceiling, floor, sheets, etc.

                I would think that the lack of cast-off is going to be a difficult point for the defense, especially since Dr. Lee addressed this area of forensic science so compellingly, and at great length, during the Peterson murder trial.

                So very strange, isn’t it?

          • Elizabeth
            06/09/2010 at 9:41 AM

            How large are these so-called play mats? Is it essentially a rubber sheet? I’m trying to picture moving the body – is the playmat wrapped around it, or is the body lying on top and two people (three?) are gripping the edges of a mat which is sturdy enough to support the body?

          • whodoneit
            06/09/2010 at 12:02 PM

            “I have no idea why he’s not come forward and gotten immunity”

            Victor’s dilemma is that he has little to offer the prosecution to get immunity. He didn’t see what happened with respect to the murder itself. He knows only what Joe told him and if Dylan wasn’t present when he was told, those statements are protected by the marital privilege. He can provide info on the cover up, but the prosecution has a good case without him flipping.

            • leo
              06/09/2010 at 2:16 PM

              No marital privilege if you are not married. Domestic partners don’t count.

              • whodoneit
                06/09/2010 at 3:53 PM

                Under DC law, registered domestic partners (which Joe and Victor were) carries the same testimonial and evidentiary privileges as married partners.

                • whodoneit
                  06/09/2010 at 3:54 PM

                  Should clarify – Joe and Victor were and continue to be registered domestic partners.

            • Bea
              06/09/2010 at 8:36 PM

              I suspect that Dylan was present for most of the damning comments that night (while they huddled together before and after the cops got there) thus voiding the privilege against marital communications. And Victor holds the decision-making power as to all other things – what Dylan said, what he saw, how they behaved in the days after. Victor is sitting on a treasure trove IF he is really uninvolved in the murder (that would be necessary for the prosecution) and IF he’s willing to tell all. I don’t think he is.

              Remember – he may not be able to say he saw the guy bite off the ear but he’s basically able to say he saw him spit it out. What was carried away? Who took it? Where did it go? Did Joe coach him? Did Dylan ever say anything incriminating? I’d bet large sums of money that he knows plenty.

              • Bill Orange
                06/09/2010 at 11:39 PM

                He may not know who actually did the stabbing, but I think he knows more than enough to sink both Joe and Dylan on the current charges.

          • DonnaH
            06/09/2010 at 8:29 PM

            Bea, I had previously thought that Victor most likely came down during the earlier phase of the cleanup in response to some noise, but I think your idea definitely makes more sense; that Victor came down and screamed (necessitating the change to Plan B) when it was too late to leave more blood in evidence. –Great analysis!

            • Bea
              06/09/2010 at 8:48 PM

              Can’t unring that particular bell. I think it’s critical.

    • CC Biggs
      06/08/2010 at 3:25 PM

      Also, why didn’t Victor request the police (he only requested EMT) if he feared — as he claims he did — that an intruder might still be in the house? It makes no sense.

      Hi, I’m afraid to go downstairs because a killer may be lurking in my house, but no need to send the police. Absurd!

      • Ivan
        06/08/2010 at 4:18 PM

        An ambulance was specifically requested so that Robert would be removed from the house and taken to a hospital. They knew calling the police meant trouble — and they were right.

        • Elizabeth
          06/08/2010 at 8:46 PM

          Well it’s ludicrous to believe that even if you don’t ask for the police that they aren’t going to show up at a murder scene.

      • NYer
        06/08/2010 at 4:11 PM

        Always good to read that again.
        Is the prosecution employing a strategy of saving the best till last, delaying calling Durham till the very end as his star witness? Her report is very damning, but not sure if there are other considerations at work here…

        • rivetted
          06/08/2010 at 4:30 PM

          I’m looking forward to Durham’s testimony. How will the defense respond? And, does anyone know if there are other witnesses who heard the “stabbed on the patio” story from Joe?

          • chilaw79
            06/08/2010 at 10:41 PM

            I don’t have much experience with criminal law. It seems a little strange for one police officer to write up a report of what another police officer saw and heard at a crime scene. Why didn’t Durham write her own report?

            There has been some suggestion that Durham was from the “wrong” police station. It still doesn’t change what she saw and heard, unless Durham has credibility issues in reporting what she saw and heard.

            Her report says Price was still in his underwear, doing all the talking, and Price said (with seeming agreement from his bath-robed partners)that Wone had been stabbed on the patio and brought inside to the second floor bedroom. Why not keep Wone as close to the door as possible for the ambulance or to be able to do CPR on a hard surface? Did Durham just get things wrong or did Price spin a story completely inconsistent with the 911 call?

            • Turtlejay
              06/09/2010 at 2:29 PM

              Wasn’t there also a statement from someone (Mrs. Wone, Tara) that J Price said Robert “was stabbed in the back.” And whether that meant, he was stabbed in the back of the house, stabbed in the back of the body, or freudian for his betrayal . . . who knows. But Durham at the scene at the time is not going to be making up that speedo said the victim was coming in from the patio. So maybe “in the back” originally referred to the back of the house. This must have been a variation of a story that the trouple dropped . . . .

              • Faye Lewis
                06/09/2010 at 6:13 PM

                He told Kathy Wone her husband had been stabbed in the back, and one way or the other, he was.

      • Ivan
        06/08/2010 at 4:23 PM

        I never heard this before. JP said Robert came through the patio door bleeding?? I don’t think he’s ever said that again.

        • NYer
          06/08/2010 at 4:27 PM

          I expect the defense to lay a full on attack of Durham’s memory, work history, work ethic, and character in general- the kitchen sink. Only because what’s on the printed page there is so damning, they really can’t do much else…

          • rivetted
            06/08/2010 at 4:32 PM

            NYer, will the attack on Durham’s credibility stick? Do you know anything about her?

        • Bea
          06/08/2010 at 6:46 PM

          I thought the prosecution had decided not to call Durham.

          • NYer
            06/08/2010 at 9:37 PM

            Bea- very interesting. There was a three- or four-month period this year that I was away from WMRW.com, so I may have missed that. Why was this decision made? Do you have a link that explains the prosecution’s rationale/strategy behind this decision?

            • Bea
              06/08/2010 at 9:52 PM

              I don’t think there was anything more than speculation/in passing. She wasn’t mentioned in the opening statement – usually if you planned to establish Joe had told two different stories, you’d say so from the outset. And perhaps they will call her since Kathy Wone’s comment (“Joe said Robert had been stabbed in the back” is ambiguous).

              • rivetted
                06/09/2010 at 1:01 PM

                I don’t understand why this wouldn’t come out as a key piece in the prosecution’s case. Isn’t it significant that Joe has told the story in so many different ways? I am not familiar with the protocols in criminal cases like this–would her testimony have to be mentioned in the prosecution’s opening statement, as a requirement? You’re right, Bea, about Kathy Wone’s comment casting more doubt on the trouples’s later story.

                I just don’t understand why the prosecution would skip a chance to point out these huge inconsistencies: Joe tells Durham that he found Robert bleeding on the back patio, and he tells KW that Robert was “stabbed in the back”; but then switches the story to finding Robert in the guestroom after hearing the door chime and grunts; he tells Tara Ragone and W-5 that he pulled the knife out of Robert himself in the guestroom, others he tells that the knife was on the table. And meanwhile, the trouple repeats a statement conjecturing that the intruder took off with one of their knives. Aren’t these inconsistencies central to the case that Joe is lying/obstructing justice? What am I missing?

      • Elizabeth
        06/08/2010 at 8:49 PM

        Were the trouple really left alone for a period of time after Robert was taken by the EMT’s to GW?

        • Carolina
          06/09/2010 at 9:29 PM

          We know Dylan was allowed to go into his room and close the door. I’m sorry I don’t recall if the others were left to their own devices for any significant period.

      • BadShoes
        06/09/2010 at 3:55 PM

        There is something about Det. Durham’s statement that really bothers me. She says that Mr. Price first told her that there had been a burglary and showed her that the back door was ajar. Okay. Mr. Price then told her that they heard a scream, and came downstairs to find Mr. Wone outside the patio door. They opened the door and brought Mr. Wone upstairs.

        But waitaminnit! If the defendants had just brought Mr. Wone through the back door, of course the back door would be ajar. Why would Mr. Price tell Officer Dunham that the burglar had entered the house? So, Mr. Wone must have gotten out of bed, come downstairs, exited through the back door, and then gotten himself stabbed on the patio. Or did the intruder enter the house, stab Mr. Wone in the guest bedroom, then carry him downstairs before dumping him in the patio? Or maybe the intruder gently carried the sleeping Mr. Wone downstairs and then killed him? Nooo. No way. Can’t be.

        Soo, here are two possible scenarios:

        a) Det. Dunham gets it wrong. Det. Dunham has only just arrived and she has a very imperfect idea of the layout of the house or the sleeping arrangements of the occupants. When she sees the guest bedroom, it looks suspiciously pristine, and she doubts that it was the scene of a knife murder.

        When she hears Mr. Price describe coming downstairs, she jumps to the conclusion that Mr. Price sleeps on the second floor, and that therefore he means coming downstairs to the ground floor. Retelling the story at 6am, after a night without sleep, she can’t make sense of her recollection. Her imagination helpfully supplies a false memory of Mr. Price saying he carried the wounded Mr. Wone back upstairs. This false memory puts Mr. Wone back upstairs where he was found, and explains why the crime scene looked so pristine. Or…

        b) Mr. Price calls an audible. Mr. Price has just finished telling Det. Dunham about the back door being ajar, when, at that very instant, he suddenly realize that the story has fatal flaw, so he quickly switches in mid-stream to an alternative story about finding Mr. Wone on the patio. Somebody savagely kicks Mr. Price under the table, and the story reverts to Mr. Wone being found on the second floor.

        The 911 call is consistent with Mr. Wone being found on the second floor, and all three defendants subsequently told similar stories. If Mr. Price told a different story, it wasn’t “the” story before midnight, and it wasn’t “the” story for very long after midnight, either. The patio story existed (if it existed at all) only in a particular interpretation of Mr. Price’s phone call to Mrs. Wone, and in Det. Dunham’s notes. The patio story would be waaaay crazier than the vanilla intruder story.

        Just when you think things can’t get any stranger….

    • Craig
      06/08/2010 at 4:16 PM

      00:18 – Zaborsky says, “And they stabbed somebody.”
      But in part II of his transcript, page 10, line 10, he tells detectives, “I told her (911 dispatcher) that I thought someone had broken into our house and that somebody may have been hurt, because I really didn’t know what had happened and I wasn’t necessarily thinking.”

      It seems that right away he knew Robert was stabbed, but in his retelling, he suddenly wasn’t so certain what he saw. This after immediately seeing Robert’s eyes “rolled back,” and “some blood.”

      00:23 – Zaborsky blurts out, “We heard…” before being cut off by the dispatcher with a question. That was the first odd appearance of “We.”

      1:24 – Asked by dispatch who stabbed Robert, again with the we. “We think it was somebody.. and intruder in the house, we heard a chime of the door.”

      “We” didn’t hear any chimes according to the interviews, only Price did, but somehow in less than two minutes, Price thought it important enough to share with Zaborsky that he’d heard the chime.

      Odder still, this portion of the call took place while Zaborsky was on the third floor. At what point did Price have the chance or time to brief Zaborsky on the chime, between their first laying eyes on Robert and Price immediately telling Zaborsky to, “Go upstairs and call 911”?

      On part II, page 10, line 7, Zaborsky says, “I immediately went upstairs, dialed 911, talked to the operator.” Again, what time was available for Zaborsky to learn about the chime he claims he did not hear, but Price did?

      • whodoneit
        06/08/2010 at 5:22 PM

        As they got up from bed and headed downstairs?

      • Lyn
        06/08/2010 at 5:34 PM

        “At what point did Price have the chance or time to brief Zaborsky on the chime, between their first laying eyes on Robert and Price immediately telling Zaborsky to, “Go upstairs and call 911″?”

        Especially given that Zaborsky was supposedly hysterical immediately upon seeing Wone. Price has just “discovered” his murdered friend, his lover melts down in a hysterical fit, and Price decides to explain to Zaborsky that he heard chimes? As they say on SNL, “really?!?”

        • Bea
          06/08/2010 at 6:48 PM

          It’s pretty strange that both of them knew of the chime the OTHER one heard but they did not – strange if they didn’t “discuss it”! Same with Victor telling the 911 dispatcher that the back door was unlocked when he didn’t see it and it was later in the evening that Dylan allegedly “noticed” it.

      • Elizabeth
        06/08/2010 at 8:52 PM

        I know these are educated guys, but the use of the word “intruder” is troublesome to me. Not the noun that would spring to mind if I am hysterical upon finding my friend stabbed in my home.

        • Kate
          06/09/2010 at 10:08 AM

          Yes, it is troublesome, especially when Victor at 1:24 in the call seems to correct himself:

          “We think it was somebody … an intruder in the house.”

          That line sticks out like a sore thumb to me, even though Victor was probably hysterical, etc. He seems to be attempting from the get-go to establish that the “Somebody” wasn’t one of them.

          Your thoughts, anyone?

    • Clio
      07/14/2012 at 10:47 AM

      Perhaps, Victor knew that the back door was unlocked because he failed to lock it after their al fresco dinner and his watering of the plants. But what responsible spouse would not lock the back door before retiring early to bed on a school night?

    • Clio
      07/23/2012 at 8:35 PM

      That bowtie does seem a bit larger and more foppish than usual, and who is that featured starlet? The mighty of marketing may have fallen a tad.

      But the catchy campaign slogan “like her, like me” does reflect Victor’s gift for just the right spin at just the right moment.

      “My life will never be the same” — yet another good soundbite that has turned out to be, quite simply, a well-crafted turn of phrase. Hiss!

      • susan
        07/29/2012 at 11:08 AM

        Clio, maybe the bowtie is to sop up any drips.

        Did we see this one before? Here they seem to be saluting the young milkman. I notice they are never drinking the stuff, just holding it or posing with a painted ‘stache:

        http://www.zimbio.com/pictures/T9YNrigUQNZ/Actress+Nina+Dobrev+Launches+Like+Like+Searches/Shd2_4ns-_N

        • susan
          07/29/2012 at 11:13 AM

          I think this one is the same that CD posted. Excuse my reposting. Just noticed the salute to the young milkman.

          Meanwhile, the calendar approaches another anniversary of that heinous, crime when murder was committed at 1509 Swann Street, NW, DC.

          • Clio
            07/29/2012 at 1:49 PM

            Yes, and the “very active” investigation continues to spin its wheels, I am sure.

            “Like her, like me” — was Victor channeling his resentment at Joe’s treatment of “the love of his life” that evening?

  6. 06/08/2010 at 3:54 PM

    There are simply too many ‘missing’ people in the scenario.

    For example –

    Victor calls Joe from the airport.
    6:00 p.m. Sarah Morgan leaves 1509 and sets the alarm.
    Victor arrives home at 6:30 p.m. appearing to expect Joe at home.

    Yet- at 6:30 p.m. when Victor arrives home – Dylan is exercising in his room.
    Dylan tells Victor that Joe isn’t home – Dylan says that Joe is at the gym.

    Victor says he changed clothes, unpacked a bit and went to the gym.

    Yet Victor is home by 7:15 p.m./7:30 p.m. (45 minutes to 60 minutes goes by – this timing seems unrealistic – just to find parking or walking up to the gym – takes time not to mention – working out. It would appear that Victor was looking for Joe.)

    However, at 7:15/7:30 p.m. Victor comes home. Joe is already home. Dylan is in the shower. Joe is already showered.

    Would appear as though stories started much earlier in the evening.

    Then at Cosi – I would like to read more about what was said between Sarah and Victor. Are there any links people could offer. I thought I read one piece indicating that Victor said when he came down the stairs he saw blood (on the floor?). This would be more realistic and create a hysterical response. I haven’t been able to find this piece again.

    These guys have been smart to keep to half truths.

    6:30 p.m. Dylan exercising in his room and he told me that Joe was at the gym (?)
    So I changed clothes, unpacked a bit, and then went to the gym.
    I got home probably 35 minutes later.
    7:15/7:30 p.m. – went upstairs, took a shower ? (why … couldn’t have worked out)
    Joe was already home from the gym.
    Dylan was in the shower when I got home.

    • 06/08/2010 at 4:19 PM

      Sorry – I should have put quotes around Victor’s comments from one of the transcripts:

      “6:30 p.m. Dylan exercising in his room and he told me that Joe was at the gym (?)
      So I changed clothes, unpacked a bit, and then went to the gym.
      I got home probably 35 minutes later.
      7:15/7:30 p.m. – went upstairs, took a shower ? (why … couldn’t have worked out)
      Joe was already home from the gym.
      Dylan was in the shower when I got home.”

      • Clio
        06/08/2010 at 9:12 PM

        Why didn’t Sarah know that Victor was arriving home early? I would definitely call my best girlfriend to tell her so, even if my early homecoming was a surprise on purpose to my husband.

        Why didn’t Dyl go with Joe to the gym? He could have spotted Culuket doing his squats and deadlifts. Who could work out in that sardine can — obviously, people in 1886 (when 1509 Swann was built) were smaller and less fitness-conscious than today’s urban sophisticates!

        Why did Victor try to chase down Joe at Results? Why didn’t he just wait for Mr. Price to come home?

        • cinnamon
          06/09/2010 at 9:19 AM

          “Why did Victor try to chase down Joe at Results? Why didn’t he just wait for Mr. Price to come home?”

          I’ve often wondered about this too. It seems from the timeframe that Victor didn’t go to the gym to workout. It seems more likely that he was trying to find Joe since the timeframe doesn’t allow for a workout. But what was so urgent that he needed to track him down? Were they fighting? Dylan mentions something about the two of them having an arguement upstairs in their room. I wonder why this hasn’t been explored more.

          Maybe this arguement is the reason that Joe didn’t answer the door for Robert when he arrived. I think it would be important to know if there was tension in the house before Robert arrived.

          • Elizabeth
            06/09/2010 at 9:23 AM

            How long had Victor been in Denver? They were married, after all. Maybe he just wanted to see him and didn’t want to wait for him to get home. Do we know if he found him at the gym? I think I remember Joe being in the shower already when Victor got home.

            • Faye Lewis
              06/09/2010 at 8:11 PM

              No, he did not find him, nor do we know where he was. They may have crossed in traffic.

              • Bea
                06/09/2010 at 8:17 PM

                I wonder if Joe really went to the gym (and if the prosecution checked records) – have often wondered if he used ‘the gym’ as an excuse to make purchases. Would be nice to know that he wasn’t up in Silver Spring checking in with his bro.

        • Bill 2
          06/09/2010 at 9:57 AM

          “Why did Victor try to chase down Joe at Results?”

          Perhaps he wanted to find out if Joe had actually signed in at the gym. It’s possible he didn’t have any trust in Joe being faithful and he may have wanted to track him down to see who or what he was doing. Arriving back in town several hours early, may have been Victor’s plan to catch Joe cheating with others.

          Did Victor know that Joe had an online ad for a third person to join him in playing with Dylan?

          Did Victor know that Joe had attempted to get an Asian dancer at a gay bar to come home with him for a threesome?

          Was Victor concerned that he was going to be replaced?

          • Faye Lewis
            06/09/2010 at 8:13 PM

            If Victor didn’t know, one would have to wonder where Dyl and Joe had their fun with their new third.

  7. CDinDC (Boycott BP)
    06/08/2010 at 4:05 PM

    Fantastic post, Craig.

    • NYer
      06/08/2010 at 4:23 PM

      I agree CD. But the part above, detailing Dylan’s exercising at home at 6:30, after Sarah left an empty house at 6- I do not think this is particularly suspicious or questionable. Unless I am missing something Craig?

      • Clio
        06/08/2010 at 9:25 PM

        A more likely scenario would be that Sarah fled the house at 6pm, but not before telling Victor about what the boys were up to. This confirmed Ma’am’s worst fears about her husband’s penchant for reckless abandon, which may have included securing the right drugs and sex toys for the evening before the dinner that s/he had to cook.

        • Agatha
          06/08/2010 at 9:27 PM

          Yes, I agree.

  8. Bea
    06/08/2010 at 4:44 PM

    Craig, how far into the tape does Victor say “don’t touch that!” to Joe. I assumed that Joe “moved the knife” right away as he described to raise Robert’s shirt and then check for pulse. But if so, what do you think it is Victor doesn’t want him to touch? Curious as to your take.

    • Craig
      06/08/2010 at 4:51 PM

      Bea: That happens @ 2:58 in. It’s unclear what Zaborsky was talking about, but for some reason I think it was not about touching the knife in or near Robert. Eagle Scout Price had been furiously administering first-aid for three minutes by that point, and I’m guessing that any weapon would’ve been moved that far into the process. FWIW.

      • Bea
        06/08/2010 at 6:06 PM

        Craig, I agree that the knife would have been “moved” by then, if this was “real”. If we assume that Joe was simply sitting by Robert’s body knowing full well that he was dead (and had been for as much as a half hour), then Victor knew at least some of the backstory and was doing his part by making the call.

        So Victor lies that Joe was holding pressure (towel) against the wound but does hand him the second one (or not – likely the wipe-down had already occurred). So while Victor’s emotions are out there, he knows he’s part of a hoax too – how much we’ll never know, I’m afraid.

        But then, three minutes into the conversation, he’s genuinely admonishing Joe not to touch something. Perhaps it is the knife on the night stand if Victor doesn’t know the entire story and he really thinks that whatever cover up has taken place shouldn’t be touched.

        The only other thing I can think of that should be touched would be the Blackberry. Was Joe thinking of hitting “send”?

    • Carolina
      06/09/2010 at 9:33 PM

      Does he say, “Don’t touch that,” or “Don’t touch”?

  9. CC Biggs
    06/08/2010 at 6:48 PM

    How confident are you that the prosecution team will be able to skillfully highlight the many inconsistencies in the defendants’ stories that have been pointed out on this site, some of which are quite subtle and only become clear upon a very close reading of seperate pieces of evidence? I assume this will be done — if it is done — during the prosecution’s closing argument.

    • Bea
      06/08/2010 at 7:53 PM

      CC, I figure there is already someone working on the closing argument (though it’s a work in progress given the mid-trial status). It will be critical to not only point out inconsistencies but also how the ‘explanation’ the defense will offer only creates other troubling issues.

      I see it as:

      Big Picture: how likely is it to be murdered in a second floor bedroom of a house you’re visiting one night? How strange that the first bedroom was passed up; how odd that the ‘burglar’ took nothing.

      Narrowing it down: Disproving the existence of an “unknown intruder” AND establishing that the defendants concocted a story. Establishing that there would have been more blood. Establishing that the defendants delayed in calling 911.

      Enumerating each element of each count against each Defendant.

  10. YournormalJoe
    06/08/2010 at 7:03 PM

    So…I just left 1509 Swann Street. I had no idea the front of the house sat right on the sidewalk. For some reason in my mind I envisioned it sitting back away aways from the street.

    Did any of the 3 park a car behind the house?
    From what I can gather (in my mind) the metal fence in the alley behind the house is new. What I find interesting is without the metal fence the “intruder” would have walked past the vehicle parked behind the house, jumped the fence to go inside and murder someone. Seems odd that a person of ill intent would just walk past a parked car to do all that. Clearly, doing thief work on the vehicle would have been more profitable to them.

    • Carolina
      06/09/2010 at 9:35 PM

      Joe parked his BMW back there and both he and Victor speculated that it might have been used by the intruder to boost up and over the fence. Of course, all this was done without a scratch or a scuff. The marvel of Bavarian engineering, eh?

  11. CWebb
    06/08/2010 at 7:29 PM

    More inconsistacies:
    1) anyone who has ever watched The Discovery Channel, TLC, etc would know that you never remove the knife, or any sharp object from a stab wound unless you want a torrent of bleeding that could lead to death. I suppose that’s one educational thing to come out of these crime shows.
    2)removing a knife from a stab wound in the heart would cause death in a minute or less regardless of how much pressure you apply. In fact, applying pressure would be useless given the pumping capacity of the left ventricle. Leaving the knife in place would prevent a massive bleed-out, but only for a short time.
    3)the heart pumps enough blood in 24 hours to fill an oil tanker. Even though a few minutes is a fraction of that tonnage, how would 2 towels soak up what should be an enormous amount of blood? Unless of course Robert Wone was already dead or dying. Then there would be some blood (consistent with the crime scene photos), but not a huge amount.
    3) Given this evidence so far, the whole intruder theory doesn’t add up. Reminds me of that Glenn Close/Jeff Bridges movie from 1984 where she defended a guy who stood accused of murdering his wife, but swore that an intruder did it. Sorry I can’t recall the title.
    4)Finally, who in this group has friends/family in Seattle? Someone had to send the knife there, and an intruder would dispose of the knife locally, I think. Why hasn’t this thread been followed?
    Anyway, thanks to Craig, et. al. for following the trial, and asking great questions.
    CWebb, RN

    • ccf
      06/08/2010 at 8:58 PM

      “Reminds me of that Glenn Close/Jeff Bridges movie from 1984 where she defended a guy who stood accused of murdering his wife, but swore that an intruder did it.”

      Jagged Edge.

    • Elizabeth
      06/08/2010 at 8:58 PM

      Jagged Edge

      • readingfromafar
        06/08/2010 at 10:49 PM

        Im from Seattle and I know they were looking for that knife everywhere to show that his mom gave it to someone and never took it with him to DC. However, weird that you would take 2 of 3 to me

        • Bea
          06/09/2010 at 5:51 AM

          Hi Reading – how do you know they were looking for the knife? I’m just wondering if it’s (quite understandable) speculation or if there’s more. . .

          It is odd for a chef to be missing one of three knives in a set. Not being a foodie, I’m throwing this out to AZ and our other foodies: isn’t the middle knife that’s missing likely used the most often?

          • cinnamon
            06/09/2010 at 9:44 AM

            I’m a foodie and I can’t imagine giving away part of a set. It’s very odd.

          • Faye Lewis
            06/09/2010 at 8:20 PM

            It’s nigh on ridiculous, much like everything in this case.

            Try to imagine a situation where you might say, “here, take this knife. I’m keeping the rest, but you’ll enjoy that one.”

    • Carolina
      06/09/2010 at 9:36 PM

      Lawmed and the Tamponade Trio disagree. We’d love to hear why you think there would have been tremendous amounts of blood.

  12. CWebb
    06/08/2010 at 7:43 PM

    In reading what I just posted, I realize that I omitted the theory that someone may have stabbed a dying/dead man to cover what may have really happened to Robert. It does happen.

    Any word on DNA evidence? Guess we are not going to hear about that at a conspiracy trial.

    • Faye Lewis
      06/09/2010 at 8:22 PM

      The stab wound was the COD. The rest has been speculated on quite a bit. You might want to go back and read a bit.

  13. josephina
    06/08/2010 at 9:21 PM

    I thought that this site would be boring with no trial–and actually this analysis is even more interesting. Good job to all.

  14. Bea
    06/08/2010 at 9:36 PM

    A bit off-topic, but I finally watched the October 2008 interview of Joseph Price on the history of GLBT history at W&M. Of course I was curious as hell as to whether the interviewer knew of this case – though the arrest warrants didn’t issue for another month or so.

    It is a bit disturbing to hear him discuss his ‘family’ as being Victor and his/Victor’s two children with their lesbian moms couple. As CD pointed out previously, there was no mention of Dylan even though much of the tape is devoted to how he’d been closeted during college and how much progress has been made – he comes off as very conservative in his public persona, all but making fun of the go-go boys who lead pride parades, gay men and women with “funny haircuts” and anyone who is “out there”. Quite a departure from the man with a live-in mistress whose closet was a sex toy store, a man whose work computer held photos of him being dominated sexually.

    He does not come off as uber-masculine by any stretch. I was struck by how he said that he’d been with the same law firm for 10 years, that he and Victor regularly attended W & M homecoming events and would continue to do so and hoped their sons would attend W&M.

    He makes himself the ‘typical domesticated man with a partner and two kids,’ very much projecting a poster boy image. But Grand Juries had already been held, and I have no doubt that Bernie Grimm had already alerted him to the likelihood of arrest on these charges. I don’t know when exactly the photos on his work computer were first ‘known by’ the powers at Arent Fox – anyone know if this was likely to have occurred before the end of October 2008? I can’t imagine granting an interview like this, and then yammering on and on about how he’s such a solid citizen with a very standard life when the shoe is about to drop.

    What’s the psychology in this? We’ve bandied about terms like narcissistic and sociopathic in relation to Joe based on the speculation and some facts provided here, and I don’t profess to know anything about him or his mental state, but doesn’t it strike others as very odd to (1) grant this interview and (2) go on and on about oneself instead of focusing on the GLBT history at W&M (which he hardly discussed, possibly because he was closeted then).

    One final thing. The interviewer prefaces a few questions with “I don’t know if you’ll be willing to talk about” – one before describing his family and another about his professional life – and I wondered if they hadn’t had a pretty thorough agreement that Robert’s name would not be mentioned, and that whatever was known about the case (photos, sex toys, drugs) would certainly be off-limits. This was hardly an expose – just a typical college project where alumni are interviewed about gay issues on campus and how things changed – it would have been bizarre for the interviewer to do anything crazy since this is mostly a puff piece for a history project.

    • Pshep
      06/08/2010 at 9:44 PM

      Where can I find this interview?

    • Clio
      06/08/2010 at 10:09 PM

      Oh Bea, every picture tells a story, even if the story is NOT the one that the (con) artist wants to be revealed. Joe’s embrace of assimiliationist cant (very much in line with Dyana Mason’s Equality Virginia) does suggest a degree of hypocrisy and of (dare I say it?) self-loathing that rivals that of even the (former) Reverend Haggard.

      His rah-rah-rah for W&M strikes me just as desperate for straight acceptance as the (lavender) philosopher Santayana cheering for Harvard a little over a century ago.

      As the muse of history, though, I do wish that Joe deposits a follow-up interview at William and Mary about his growing up gay with Michael in a military family: perhaps, the prison authorities will allow our Editors to prepare the questions.

      • Bea
        06/08/2010 at 10:14 PM

        Well done.

        I think Joe couldn’t NOT scratch the itch – an interview in which he’s a respected alumnus? Of course! What are a few little white lies . . .

        • Kate
          06/09/2010 at 10:36 AM

          Sins of omission, indeed.

          You’re so right, Bea, he just couldn’t resist. It’s pretty indicative of his personality type.

    • Bill Orange
      06/08/2010 at 10:47 PM

      “What’s the psychology in this?”

      I don’t know. I would say that he seems to enjoy getting into difficult situations just to see if he can talk his way out of them. I can’t think of any other explanation for the pornographic pictures of himself on his office computer. He tells the police to go ahead and search the house–they won’t find anything more incriminating than pornography!–when he knows that Dylan’s got a trunkful of S&M gear that they’re going to find. I really think that he believes he can talk his way out of anything. He made partner at a major law firm. He was partnered to a semi-famous advertising executive. He’d talked his partner into letting his S&M dominant move in with him. And God only knows how many jams he’s gotten Michael out of. And he may still manage to talk his way out of covering up the murder of one of his own friends.

  15. Bill 2
    06/08/2010 at 9:58 PM

    In view of the fact that there was no mention of Dylan even though much of the tape is devoted to how he’d been closeted during college, he still kept part of his “family” hidden in his closet. It appears that much of Joe Price’s life has been lived as a fake and fraud.

    • Bea
      06/08/2010 at 10:03 PM

      It did strike me that he appears VERY comfortable in compartmentalizing his life – apparently has no problem just leaving out critical information to provide the preferable story and spin. Sure seems like a “lie” to me – so why agree to do the interview? I did wonder if after this blew up he took every opportunity to give Victor the strokes he needs to feel like the First Wife.

      • Bill 2
        06/08/2010 at 10:16 PM

        A-ha, Bea, you may be on to something. He probably needs to give reassurance to Victor in order to keep him happy and in line.

        It makes me wonder how Sarah’s testimony hit Victor last week when she mentioned that Dylan figured he was going to move into the #1 spot. It would be interesting to hear how that was hashed over by the trio.

        • AnnaZed
          06/08/2010 at 10:24 PM

          Oh, to have been a fly on the wall just for that conversation between Joe and Victor, ha!

        • Bill Orange
          06/08/2010 at 10:58 PM

          “It makes me wonder how Sarah’s testimony hit Victor last week when she mentioned that Dylan figured he was going to move into the #1 spot. ”

          Based on everything so far, I think that the relationships between the three men seem far less like healthy family relationships and far more like all-out psychological warfare. And I think Victor is very much the passive-aggressive one. He doesn’t call to say he caught a flight five hours earlier than planned until he’s almost home. He burns the steaks. He stays in his room when a guest arrives. He sounds skeptical of the story on the 911 call. He’s just as dysfunctional as the other two.

        • Craig
          06/08/2010 at 11:35 PM

          B2: I doubt this was the first that Zaborsky heard of Ward’s plans to usurp. Morgan, his good friend of 15 years, must’ve shared that with him before. Otherwise, what sort of friend would she really be?

          Which begs the question, assuming that Zaborsky knew of Ward’s not-so-hidden agenda, why was he welcomed into the home and family?

          • Carolina
            06/09/2010 at 9:42 PM

            Because Joe told him to?

            You bring up a good point about Sarah telling Victor, however some of us have learned it’s better to keep silent considering what usually happens to messengers.

  16. readingfromafar
    06/08/2010 at 10:46 PM

    What I want to know is: when they found Roberts body- why they wouldnt immediately go to Dylans room to make sure he was ok. Or really go there first-I mean how did they know the grunts came from that room and not Dylans? And how is it that the 2 of them ran down the stairs and down the hall past Dylans room and yet Dylan didnt hear them running past?????
    If it was me, and I saw a dead body-yeah I would scream but then go right to my friend/lovers room. And if Dylan heard the scream, even if he jumped right out of bed (which isnt likely if he was doped on Ambian) to see what was going on, he would have at least ran into Victor or Joe in the hallway.
    There is never any mention of this-or did I miss it?

    • Bea
      06/08/2010 at 11:27 PM

      Hi Reading – it’s been the topic of a number of discussions. Many of us think it’s absurd that if the story is true that they didn’t go make sure Dylan was alive. Dylan claims he heard something that didn’t fully wake him but then heard the “commotion” that he thought might have been Joe and Victor having an argument and that’s when he got up.

    • cinnamon
      06/09/2010 at 10:02 AM

      They didn’t have to go past Dylan’s room. The guestroom was immediately at the bottom of the stairs…supposedly with the door open so that Robert’s body was in clear view.

  17. Bill
    06/08/2010 at 11:10 PM

    I think this is getting a bit salacious. These men are on trial for a very serious crimes. I believe these kinds of questions are antagonistic to their case and offensive and obnoxious. Please refrain from such antagonistic questions. It is offensive and obnoxious.

    • Bea
      06/08/2010 at 11:28 PM

      Hi Bill – since your post is standing alone, I don’t know what questions you’re referring to. My inquiry about the psychology of agreeing to be interviewed right before the arrest warrants were issued? Thanks.

      • Bill
        06/09/2010 at 2:17 AM

        Hi Bea – no I was making a general comment. You are very clearly fair and well-informed. I am just very concerned about being even-handed and open-minded. These are the lives of three people. And I do not mean to diminish the life of Robert.

        • Bea
          06/09/2010 at 4:24 AM

          Bill, I agree completely. Because I hold the opinion that the defendants are guilty of at least these charges based on available evidence and information (or what I perceive to be valid evidence) and yet I was not there that night and there are many things I do not know, I do try to ‘re-think’ everything from time to time. I think most people here do have (as a primary objective) a desire for justice for Robert Wone and comfort for his family. Too, you’re right that we all need reminding from time to time that there are three men on trial and that the outcome of this case is far more personal for them. While most (if not all) of us have no personal stake in the verdict, the three defendants are facing the possibility of significant prison sentences.

          Sometimes the gallows humor, and even the banter which may come off like ‘sport’, can be misinterpreted and misunderstood – those of us who’ve been on this blog for well over a year have a ‘sense’ of the other bloggers we’ve come to know, but many people are reading this now for the first time and don’t have the benefit of the long history we have with each other (though the relationships are merely ‘online’ relationships).

          You are right to make this distinction and give a nod both to the genuine reason for this blog – to the memory of Robert and a hope that justice brings comfort to his loved ones – and to give a gentle reminder that the futures of the three defendants do hang in the balance. Despite my personal beliefs, I do want to always be mindful that I only want convictions if they are indeed guilty.

          That isn’t to say that bloggers here (myself included) won’t make cracks or get annoyed or engage in some wild speculation – we will, and certainly I will. And I’ll be shocked if I change my mind about their guilt, but as I’ve always said, I would love to be wrong. If they are guilty, and the guilty verdict comes (as I expect it to) it will be a black eye for the gay community because right wing media (at a minimum) will love making hay out of these ‘poster boys’.

          If we get sick of people coming here to (again!) engage in speculation that Robert MUST have been gay to spend the night with three gay men, I can only imagine how the right wing media will play up the ‘dangers’ of staying with gay people and paint us all with a very ugly brush.

          • Kate
            06/09/2010 at 12:10 PM

            Thank you, Bill and Bea.

            There are few circumstances in life more horrific than being charged with and/or convicted of a crime you did not commit. The only circumstance that comes to mind is being the victim of a violent and senseless murder.

            This thought comes to mind each and every time I visit the blog and consider the particulars of the case.

            One very promising young life has been lost and several others have been irreparably damaged, including the lives of the defendants, Kathy Wone and Robert’s family and intimates.

            It is an enormous tragedy from any and all perspectives.

            We all hope justice will be served, no matter what that may be.

            I apologize if I sound as if I’m pontificating here – simply expressing deep-seeded thoughts on a dreary and soggy June day.

            Kate

            • Bill
              06/09/2010 at 7:00 PM

              Bea and Kate – Thank you both for your very kind and considered comments. All the way around, the entire thing is tragic. Let’s all hope for the best.

    • Carolina
      06/09/2010 at 9:50 PM

      With all due respect, it became salacious when Joe decided to put his personal porn on his work computers and pack his house with sex toys and restraints, any of which could contribute to method or motive.

      I also consider the editors capable of policing their blog.

  18. Elizabeth
    06/08/2010 at 11:28 PM

    I just got done rereading J’s interrogation transcripts, part I and II, and relistening to the 911 call. These are the things that are questions/inconsistencies for me.

    1. Victor uses the word “intruder” in the 911 call. Joe just says “someone” in his interrogation. “Intruder” sounds coached/contrived. “Someone” is much more conversational.

    2. p. 10, lines 7 – 8, Joe says “he (Victor) handed me a towel. I put the towel on Robert.” One towel.

    3. p. 9, lines 15 – 17, Joe says “I think I said, I really don’t know, I think I said the knife was laying on him. One of the officers actually–I think one of the guys last night or whatever said, you know, it was in him. I don’t know.” In him or on him sound like two pretty distinctive scenarios.

    4. p. 20, lines 18 – 19, Joe says “I didn’t give a shit what I touched or what a mess the place was.” Except the place wasn’t a mess at all.

    5. Joe does not talk about a “black” guy living in the van in the alley. Ethnicity is never mentioned. Where did that come from? He does not specify race. He does make reference to race twice, however. Once on page 16, line 21, “…two elderly black people…” living in the neighborhood for years; p. 23, line 22, referring to a police officer …”the AA guy, kind of short, shaved head.”

    6. On the 911 call Victor says “We heard our friend scream.” A few seconds later he says we heard the chimes after we heard our friend scream. No grunts, no moans, but a scream.

    7. Where does the 11:43 time come from? The operator clearly says 11:54.

    Just a few, of the many things, that don’t sit right.

    • Bea
      06/09/2010 at 12:17 AM

      Hi Elizabeth,

      Joe refers to the “black guy” living in the alley in the interrogation portion shown at trial but for which we don’t have a transcript here. The Editors got these as part of Motion filing exhibits but not all of the interrogations/transcripts were referenced in filings.

      Many of us speculate that “11:43” was the mistake they all made when concocting their story (or at a minimum, getting their stories ‘straight’) – instead of 11:54, they remembered it incorrectly and thus is a good indication that their story isn’t accurate. Like getting caught in cheating on a test, the same “missed” answers seems to be fairly blatant. And Joe lies that Victor didn’t tell him the time from the dispatcher until they were downstairs – clearly not true since you can hear Victor tell him on the recording (also Joe speculates as to why Victor may have asked the time when in fact Joe is heard on the tape asking). My speculation (and many others) is that they wanted a time stamp in order to work backwards in estimating when things happened as they relay their stories to the police (as in “okay, arrival at 10:30; bedtime at 11:00; we heard the noises and went down and discovered Robert’s body; we called 911 at 11:43 so we say that the scream was right before the call).

      • Elizabeth
        06/09/2010 at 9:16 AM

        Thanks, Bea.

        One other question from the transcript: when the officer tells Joe to just imagine for a minute if “we only find your DNA on the knife…” (p. 55 line 18) Joe responds “I don’t know how the whole DNA thing works, but it’s a kitchen knife in our house, you know, I use it, Richard uses it…” Who is Richard?

        • Nora
          06/09/2010 at 9:24 AM

          This was the subject of a discussion awhile ago. Joe actually said “Victor.” His words were transcribed incorrectly.

          • Elizabeth
            06/09/2010 at 9:31 AM

            Thanks for that. And thanks to all the old-timers for their patience when responding to the questions of us newbies!

    • ccf
      06/09/2010 at 1:26 AM

      ‘6. On the 911 call Victor says “We heard our friend scream.” A few seconds later he says we heard the chimes after we heard our friend scream. No grunts, no moans, but a scream.’

      Perhaps Victor initially attributed the scream that the neighbor heard to Robert but somehow they decided to change the story.

  19. emg
    06/09/2010 at 6:00 AM

    Durhams report is interesting. What was on page 2 that we haven’t seen? If she was first officer on the scene and Robert was already being taken out, and V,J, and D were all downstairs, they had time to talk alone. I don’t think she misunderstood that Robert was at patio door vs. intruder as some suggest. Her report is too detailed. “We brought him upstairs and laid him on the bed.” Pretty clear to me. Whether or not that was what actually happened, they have given 2 separate accounts. I also read somewhere only once that Joe said he heard a noise and went all they way downstairs and saw the back door ajar.

    How could they know knife was missing from kitchen unless one of them DID go down there before police arrived?

    • Pshep
      06/09/2010 at 10:49 AM

      If Durham’s report of the content of this conversation is accurate, it makes no sense. Who would take a stabbing victim up a flight of stairs to the second level of the home? The defendents must of realized that this was ridiculous and changed their story…

      • First Time Reader
        06/09/2010 at 12:05 PM

        I agree that this story is ridiculous. No one would carry a stabbing victim to the second floor, then call 911, and have him carried out again. It does make me wonder whether Durham simply misunderstood what was being said. It could be that she was told the “intruder” came in through the back door and that Wone was in the bedroom. Perhaps, she just conflated two statements. I don’t see how this can be resolved without her testimony.

        I think the 911 call, Price’s insistence on dominating the conversation, and the police interviews are more revealing at this point.

        • NYer
          06/09/2010 at 12:33 PM

          Based on the specific wording of her report, I am not sure how Durham could have misunderstood Price on this point. On a side note- interesting how her report as well makes note that, despite her not knowing any of them, JP was the one who dominated the narrative.

  20. emg
    06/09/2010 at 6:04 AM

    Durham’s arrival time must be off. EMTs arrive at 11:54 and she said that was her arrival time. But she also says EMT’s were putting Robert in ambulance. it takes far longer to get a gurney into the house, up the stairs, make an initial evaluation and bring him down. I would suggest that V,J, and D could have been alone for up to 5 minutes before poice arrived.

    Am i right that she was first officer on scene?

    • NYer
      06/09/2010 at 6:54 AM

      emg, I believe that she was the first cop at the scene. You have to be right about the inaccuracy of her reported time of 11:54. The 911 call concluded around that time, when medics arrived. I agree, I think that it would take 5-10 minutes for medics to move Robert into the position that Durham reports her first seeing Robert. Also, Jeff Baker was not moving at high speed either- as per his unforgettable testimony about how fast he went up and down 1509’s stairwell: “I’m 43, 240 lbs. I walk.”
      I’m thinking that her mistake might be attributed to a fast clock, or she had the medic arrival time mistakenly in her head while filing her report.

    • NYer
      06/09/2010 at 7:03 AM

      Also, I do think there would be a point before Durham’s arrival they were “somewhat” alone, but appears that that would be brief and fleeting, perhaps less than a minute. The medics were in the house the whole time since 11:54 and Durham got there as they exited 1509.
      My question is was how long the troupe were alone together after DURHAM left the scene. Her report implies there was some alone time after she departed, and before the “other units” came by to investigate.

    • Timeline
      06/09/2010 at 11:49 AM

      Where do you see Durham reporting her arrival time as 11:54? I see that the statement says that “an assignment for stabbing was broadcast to units” at 11:54, but I don’t actually see anywhere that she states a specific arrival time. Can someone point me to that?

      • NYer
        06/09/2010 at 12:22 PM

        Thanks Timeline, I stand corrected. Durham never reports her arrival time as 2354; the time is noted as when the “assignment” is broadcast. I guess Durham’s time cannot be off, if she never noted it…

  21. ladyg
    06/09/2010 at 10:06 AM

    i’m sticking w my first line of questioning, why did joe assume it was robert who made the low gruntal sounds and not dylan? why wouldn’t you and your partner ck on both gentlemen on the 2nd floor? well, it’s because you already knew that it was robert. that’s what i’m stick with, seems logical to me.

  22. ladyg
    06/09/2010 at 10:18 AM

    days ago, i said that if you re read their statements lies “the truth”, they think that the MPD, are to dumb, not to pick up on what was said & taped. thank GOD, for the internet, that we’re (posters)are able to read their transcripts &listen to the 911 call. let’s just hoped that the police and the usa prosecutors are just as brillant. “CATCH’EM WAGNER, WAID & NORRIS”!!!

  23. Ohio
    06/09/2010 at 10:32 AM

    So, the emt’s get there, no police yet, Durham shows up as they are taking Robert to the ambulance, he is already gone, and she says she has to go with the body rather than stay at the house until more police get there? That doesn’t seem like proper procedure to me. Anyone?

    • NYer
      06/09/2010 at 10:44 AM

      That was my thought as well. But keep in mind that they weren’t suspects at that point either.

      • Ohio
        06/09/2010 at 12:42 PM

        Be that as it may, if someone had been stabbed I would think that law enforcement would not like to leave the scene unsupervised. Sheesh, what if the stabber comes back? What if a lot of things.

        • NYer
          06/09/2010 at 12:49 PM

          Agreed. But I suppose there’s a lot the report leaves open to question. Also, perhaps the second group of investigators were just about to enter 1509 at that point. One would hope anyway.

    • Bill Orange
      06/09/2010 at 11:45 PM

      I would guess that protecting the victim takes precedence over securing the crime scene.

      • NYer
        06/10/2010 at 5:44 AM

        Presumably –except in this case, the victim was already deceased.

        • Bill Orange
          06/10/2010 at 7:39 AM

          We know that now, but the police didn’t know that at the time. The story was that that Robert Wone had just been stabbed, and the EMTs were taking him to a trauma center. It makes sense to me that she would go with him to the hospital.

          • NYer
            06/10/2010 at 8:20 AM

            Re-reading Durham’s statement, your point sounds plausible; Durham’s report does not indicate that she was aware that Robert had “been dead for some time,” as per Baker’s assessment in the Affidavit.
            But I am confused how she could *not* learn of something like that arriving at the crime scene– whether the victim was dead or alive. It seems like that would be one of the first critical observations to make.

            • Bill Orange
              06/10/2010 at 10:24 AM

              “But I am confused how she could *not* learn of something like that arriving at the crime scene– whether the victim was dead or alive.”

              I’m sure everyone knew that he was in really bad shape, but the story that was given to the EMTs was that Robert Wone had been stabbed minutes before they arrived. Based on that information alone, they would’ve been obligated to try to resuscitate him.

  24. ladyg
    06/09/2010 at 11:05 AM

    QUESTION: did anyone see joe at the gym? was it earlier, than what was told or had joe been in dylan’s room the whole time? making VICTOR, run all over the place looking for joe. to me that’t why the time line doesn’t make any sense.

    • ladyg
      06/09/2010 at 11:38 AM

      sorry meant: the time line doesn’t add up

  25. Dr20854
    06/09/2010 at 11:08 AM

    Their behavior seems so counterintuitive to anyone who has just had an “intruder” come in and stab someone. If I am checking out any sound in my house, I come out of my room with a robe and something to protect myself with – and a phone. Once when I had left a door open, possibly allowing an intruder to enter my home, I checked through every closet, behind every door and under every bed before I could rest.

    It is just so implausible that their reactions would be such if they really just heard sounds, found their friend stabbed in their home, without seeing an intruder run away – that they would just call 911 without begging for the police to come search the home, or for Dylan to simply walk in and out of his bedroom or peer over the banister to see what’s going on.

    • Ivan
      06/09/2010 at 1:04 PM

      I agree Dr. There’s a lack of fear in them.

  26. ladyg
    06/09/2010 at 11:49 AM

    who was the cook that evening….why would you leave “steaks” unattend on the grill?

    • Kate
      06/09/2010 at 12:48 PM

      Ladyg – Victor relates in his first interview that he was Grill Man that evening. He left the grill unattended when Joe calls him to the phone to talk with his son – probably about the lost tooth and riding a bike without training wheels, etc.

  27. ladyg
    06/09/2010 at 1:28 PM

    wow…thanks kate. just seems like things were done in a hurry? you just don’t gobble down steak, even if it’s burnt. didn’t joe, think that his over night guest would like a bite to eat…if not a sliver of steak,but anything light, besides water? call me strange, but that’s how we treat our guest.

  28. NYer
    06/09/2010 at 3:47 PM

    A question on the timing: I had noted in earlier posts that there was a 19-49 minute delay in placing the 911 call based on the the Thomases testimony of the scream occurring while Maureen Bunyon was on air, from 11-11:30.

    But others here have noted that the newscast had ended at 11:35, not 11:30, and began at 11pm.

    While I think a 14-44 minute delay would still be incriminating for the troupe, I don’t think this latter time is correct- unless the Affidavit to Arrest Ward has the times mistaken.

    • NYer
      06/09/2010 at 3:51 PM

      (meant 11:05pm in 2d para.)

  29. Laura G,
    06/09/2010 at 4:12 PM

    You may have discussed this already and I simply missed it. But the thing that has always bothered me is why Zaborsky explicitly told the dispatcher that “the person” [intruder} had “one of our knives.” Given his apparent inattention to the actual knife, why would he identify it as one belonging to the household? Why would he not think that the intruder had entered carrying a knife? Or, more to the point (sorry for the dreadful pun), why didn’t he just describe it with an indefinite article as “a knife”?

  30. ladyg
    06/09/2010 at 4:59 PM

    LAURA G, this story that they spun, is out of control.

  31. ladyg
    06/09/2010 at 5:05 PM

    i’m telling you this “intruder” had the floor plans,too.

  32. ladyg
    06/09/2010 at 5:10 PM

    you need jack mccoy, for this case..

  33. MikeDC
    06/13/2010 at 1:21 AM

    Bunch of know-it-alls. You guys are spinning as big as story as you claim the defendants to be spinning. None of you have given a reasonable answer to the question “why?” Do you really think knives and stabbing are a routine part of BDSM play? This is exactly why they would have never gotten a fair trial from a jury, cause when you mix homos, three-way relationships, and BDSM sex, the only answer for most of you is, “of course they did it, look at all the freaky stuff they were into.” Face it, in reality, you have no idea what happened.

  34. Bill 2
    06/13/2010 at 9:03 AM

    “homos, three-way relationships, and BDSM sex” = freaky stuff?

    In the first place, MikeDC, most of the people posting here are gay so we don’t view most “homos” as being freaky. When it comes to a three-way relationship, that sounds like it could be a nice, loving environment. As far as BDSM, depending on the people involved, it can be innocent fun.

    BUT — let’s look at this household. We have one member of the trouple (Dylan) who told another household member (Sarah) that he plans to take Victor’s place as Joe Price’s spouse. That doesn’t sound like a loving three-way relationship to me.

    We know that two people in this household are into BDSM. That can be a fun and safe hobby. Only yesterday, I saw a movie with Lucille Ball dressed in pink feathers and furbelows, cracking a whip at a bunch of caged women in feline costumes who were clawing at her with six-inch nails. Activities in the Swann Street residence, weren’t an MGM movie musical. When one of those men wants another one eliminated from his place in a three-way household, it could be moving into dangerous territory.

    When one of the BDSM men is reckless, we have to assume that it’s possible for things to go astray. The fact that one of the partners was storing BDSM photos of himself on his OFFICE computer is a prime example of recklessness and very poor judgment. In most business situations, photos of this nature found by people from an IT department would be cause for immediate dismissal. The stupidity of a person who takes a chance like this is not something to be admired. A person who exhibits such recklessness could easily make serious errors in BDSM “play” that could cause great harm to other persons involved in the scenario.

    Put it all together Mike DC, and we’ve got a household that most of us, in the gay community, would not view as a model of gay family life. Perhaps there’s a reason you seem to view it as normal?

    • AnnaZed
      06/13/2010 at 12:19 PM

      That’s for putting that so well Bill 2.

      One of the things that has bothered me from the very beginning is this entire definition of the relationships inside the trouple as being polyamorous, a definition for public consumption seemingly created or imposed by them. They are not a three-way-relationship. Victor is Joe’s monogamous spouse, Joe has an (intense) sexual relationship with Dylan but I have seen no indication that Victor has any relationship with Dylan at all. Joe is the center and the other two men relate to him, not each other. Dylan expressed that he thought that he would oust Victor from his own home, a rather typical up-market sex worker delusion but his expressed thoughts nonetheless. I wouldn’t call that polyamorous I would call that something closer to bigamy or tolerated adultery.

      • Eagle
        06/13/2010 at 12:27 PM

        Yep. Keen analysis. thanks.

  35. AnnaZed
    07/17/2012 at 11:55 AM

    @christylove Victor says “my life will never be the same again” in his police interview.

    • David
      07/17/2012 at 1:49 PM

      The extended 911 call was only played in court and has never been released to the public.

Comments are closed.