Judgment at Nurenberg

Nine News Now, Nine News Then…

Last Thursday afternoon we got a call from Gary Nurenberg, ace reporter from DC’s CBS affiliate, WUSA-TV, channel 9.  Gary was working on a piece about the Wone case and wanted to update his audience on recent developments as well as possible failures in the investigation. 

Broadcast HouseNurenberg had only a minute and half of available airtime and told us that his story would be very matter of fact, cut and dry, and unable to really plumb the depths of the case’s many anomalies and incongruities. 

No matter; even 90 seconds is still prized on one of DC’s best 11pm newscasts.  

As he and his cameraman were headed out, I asked him about a former colleague of theirs, Gary Reals.  A casualty of the shifting economics of journalism, Reals took a buy-out last December, leaving the newsroom he’d been at since 1980. 

In trawling through the media archives, we came across an item we hadn’t seen before, a story Reals did in August 2006, a couple weeks after Robert’s murder. 

And this one set us back on our heels.  MPD Officer Diane  Durham’s statement indicates Robert’s body may have been moved that night.  Reals’ story takes this concept one step further; Robert’s body may have been moved twice.

Reals’ retirement was WUSA’s loss, and ours too.  His piece shows that he had good sources deep inside the MPD. 

Few of these items ever worked their way into other press coverage of the crime.  Pity; he was onto something, or several somethings.  Get a load of these nuggets from his sources:

“… it’s becoming increasingly clear the murder of Robert Wone involves a criminal conspiracy…  the attempted clean-up; if not the act of murder itself, involves more than one person.

Detectives estimate those wounds were at least an hour oldthe body was moved and then moved again…it is very obvious anyone present inside that row-house would have been aware of the killing and subsequent activity inside such a small dwelling. 

…there is no evidence of any other person inside the house that night.  The back door was open, we’re told, but not forced open.   Detectives suspect it was left open as part of the cover-up.”

Just weeks after the murder, Reals had his MPD sources spilling. 

“The clock is the enemy,” Nurenberg told us, apologetic he wasn’t able to offer more time for the piece.  And always looming is a breaking news story that could upend a newscast’s planned rundown before airtime.  News of David Letterman’s dalliances broke that evening, and Nurenberg emailed to say his piece may have been truncated a bit, but he still would get it on the air. 

Before the taping Nurenberg told us that he’d read the op-ed we dropped in the Washington Post to mark the third anniversary of the murder and to catalogue the cavalcade of errors and missteps in the investigation.  He’d been carrying the Post piece around in his briefcase since July knowing at some point he’d tackle the Wone murder story. 

We’re glad he held onto it.  The daily paper: the original mobile news platform.

Reals’ piece aired before WUSA repurposed all their content for the website, but the full script is here:

Conspiracy In Swann Street Murder

Law enforcement sources tell 9NEWS NOW it’s becoming increasingly clear the murder of Robert Wone involves a criminal conspiracy. Multiple sources say, at the very least, the attempted clean-up; if not the act of murder itself, involves more than one person.

When police arrived at the Swann Street row house, Robert Wone’s body was found in a second floor bedroom with three stab wounds. Detectives estimate those wounds were at least an hour old.

In the preceding hour, 9NEWS NOW has learned the body was moved and then moved again. According to sources, the body of the attorney for Radio Free Asia had been moved out of the bedroom where the stabbing occurred. It was then returned to it after the scene had been cleaned.

As we reported Monday, detectives swore in an affidavit that the crime scene had been tampered with and the area where the victim’s body was located had been cleaned.

Three residents of the house were all home at the time of the slaying. Each gave detectives statements. At least one claimed Wone was killed by an intruder. However, police sources say there’s no evidence of a break-in and no evidence of any other person being inside the house that night.

Furthermore, we’re told it is very obvious anyone present inside that row-house would have been aware of the killing and subsequent activity inside such a small dwelling. One official told us “it’s like a sardine can inside.” The owner of the house, Joseph Price is general counsel for Equality Virginia, a gay lobbyist group and a member of the Arent Fox law firm where his office has been searched and his computer seized by homicide detectives.

Price and his two house-mates have retained prominent defense counsels. In a joint statement they tell 9NEWS NOW, “Our clients are devastated by the murder of their dear friend. They’ve cooperated by voluntarily giving extensive statements to the police, telling them unequivocally none of them were involved and are hopeful the authorities will quickly identify and apprehend the intruder responsible.”

Once again, police sources say there is no evidence of any other person inside the house that night. The back door was open, we’re told, but not forced open. Detectives suspect it was left open as part of the cover-up. Finally, we’re told this investigation is likely to take weeks, if not months to unfold before an arrest is made now that so many attorneys are involved.

 -Craig

198 comments for “Judgment at Nurenberg

  1. Nelly
    10/05/2009 at 12:53 PM

    Thanks to Gary Nurenberg, Gary Reals, Channel 9, and Craig here for keeping the news going about Robert Wone’s murder. How much of that Haleigh sensationalist ‘journalism’ do we have to put up with from Nancy Grace and Headline news?

  2. Nelly
    10/05/2009 at 12:53 PM

    Thanks to Gary Nurenberg, Gary Reals, Channel 9, and Craig here for keeping the news going about Robert Wone’s murder. How much of that Haleigh sensationalist ‘journalism’ do we have to put up with from Nancy Grace and Headline news?

  3. Nelly
    10/05/2009 at 12:53 PM

    Thanks to Gary Nurenberg, Gary Reals, Channel 9, and Craig here for keeping the news going about Robert Wone’s murder. How much of that Haleigh sensationalist ‘journalism’ do we have to put up with from Nancy Grace and Headline news?

  4. Bea
    10/05/2009 at 1:13 PM

    Wow – thanks to all!

    My reading (may be wrong) is that Robert was killed in the guest room, moved from the guest room during clean up, then “put” back in the guest room bed. Again, this ONLY makes sense if they planned to take the body somewhere to “dispose” of it. What made them change their minds is key – it must’ve been quite disturbing to make them “go” with a very implausible story of an intruder-who-cleans-up-after-himself. Are we back to Victor’s scream and/or unwillingness to go along with moving the body? That he said he was calling 911 regardless?

    I had in my head that the stab wounds were an hour old though I hadn’t been able to find it – this from months ago when I argued timeline and that Robert was killed before 11 pm. This may have been the source though it doesn’t ring a bell. If Robert was killed right before Dylan/Joe said they “went upstairs to go to bed” (seed of truth) around 11, then the duo had time to clean/plan until the “scream” which could have been as late as 11:35.

    I keep wondering: is the scream the reason they aborted the plan? I wonder if Victor’s awakening and saying ‘we need to call 911’ because the other two lied to HIM at first, may account for the 15 minutes (or longer, depending) of getting HIM under control and V arguing with the two of them that disposing of the body is idiocy. Joe would have realized – sooner or later – that moving the body would all but lock them behind bars for good.

    Anyone else feel like it’s so close but so damned elusive??

    • Craig
      10/05/2009 at 2:47 PM

      This line sticks out, “Detectives estimate those wounds were at least an hour old.”

      If that’s the case, and if the detectives arrived around midnight then that places the stabbing occuring well before 11:00pm.

      I’m starting to have even more misgivings about the entire timeline (10:30pm arrival), possible activity on the patio, the garden hose, the drain, and the 10:22pm call Robert supposedly made to Swann Street before his arrival.

      If that call was made from his BBerry and NOT a land line at RFA, it’s entirely possible that whoever may have drafted his unsent emails could’ve easily dialed the Swann Street house too from that phone….

      The background and off-the-record comments Gary Reals got from his MPD sources seemed pretty definitive and confident, not just idle speculation. This is weird. Again, hmmm….

      • John Grisham
        10/05/2009 at 2:55 PM

        Don’t we have a precise time that Robert is seen leaving and/or clocked out of RFA?

        • Bea
          10/05/2009 at 3:05 PM

          I thought so, too, John. But I can’t find it.

        • NYer
          10/05/2009 at 3:21 PM

          According to the WaPo article by Duggan: “Colleagues said he arrived at the radio station before 10. At 10:22 p.m., finished shaking hands with the staff, he called the Swann Street townhouse from his office, saying he would be there shortly.” The office is said to be about a mile walk from 1509.

          • CDinDC
            10/05/2009 at 3:38 PM

            If Robert walked the mile, it may have taken him less than 20….I walk a just shy of a mile from Kalorama down Connecticut to my office in the morning….takes me 20 minutes. I’m not a moderate walker. (not slow/not fast).

            He may have taken a cab which would have gotten him there in minutes.

            I still believe that it was Robert that screamed when attacked. Perhaps Robert’s scream woke Victor up.

            • CDinDC
              10/05/2009 at 3:39 PM

              I AM a moderate walker, I should say.

            • Craig
              10/05/2009 at 4:01 PM

              Agree. It was a hot and steamy night and the walk to Swann would’ve been misearable. Robert would’ve been just moments away by cab.

              Damn – Nothing fits in this timeline no matter how I look at it. Unless of course one believes Robert was killed just moments after his arrival…. If that’s the case, where and how do the injections fit into that scenario. And then there’s always the “why.”

              But maybe it’s best for now to give up on the whys… That’s always the most unsettling piece of the puzzle(s).

              • David
                10/05/2009 at 4:17 PM

                What fits best is this was a premeditated sexual assault and premeditated murder. The murder may have been necessary only to prevent identification of the perpertrators, but the assualt was definitely premeditated. The perpertrators moved immediately upon Robert’s arrival to sexually assault him (GHB in drink, followed by paralytic injections.) The murder followed because they did not fully think through these implications but quickly realized that they would be indentified (it was conconcted as part of a sexual fantasy). Or the murder was always part of the plan. However, this is the best explanation that fits the timeline of the events that evening. It is a very scary thought to entertain. We want to think this was something that got out of hand, but the evidence, to my mind, simply doesn’t stack up that way.

                David

                • CDinDC
                  10/05/2009 at 4:39 PM

                  I have to agree David. Things were done in very short order. Crimes of passion (anger being a passion) don’t usually go in an orderly fashion. This crime seems to have been orchestrated.

                  • Bea
                    10/05/2009 at 5:06 PM

                    I keep thinking that the moved-body-twice and clean-up MUST have been due to a change in plans; perhaps the original plan WAS to dump Robert’s body elsewhere. But perhaps that assumption is wrong – maybe the reason they moved-then-cleaned-then-moved has to do with mixed DNA, as in Joe and Dylan’s, all over the ‘mat’ or floor or wherever. Even if it looked ridiculous to ‘clean’ it was better than the alternative of having one’s DNA mixed with Robert’s on the bed/wall/floor.

                    Robert’s semen was everywhere except his hands and lips (if I recall correctly). Not just his rectum but also on his genitalia and thighs. I can see how a shower wouldn’t get to the rectum, but thighs and genitalia? I think the boys were concerned with their own DNA mixed in with the blood all over his body. Or they used the stim AFTER they cleaned/showered?

                    I waffle but keep thinking it would have made much more sense to left the mess – or most of it – suggesting that the plan may have been to dump his body. I freely admit I don’t know much about boys’ S & M play, but it would seem that one would have a pretty good idea where one’s DNA would end up.

                    • Clio
                      10/05/2009 at 7:58 PM

                      I am intrigued by Bea’s last question above. Given the unlimited potential of the depravity of the defendants, why would even they use that infernal machine on Robert AFTER they had cleaned up the scene? If they did that, then was it an intentional attempt to throw off any impending investigation?

                    • CDinDC
                      10/05/2009 at 10:05 PM

                      Bea,

                      re your thought about disposing of Robert’s body, I’ve always wondered about that abandoned house/lot in NE DC. The only reason the MPD would have secured a search warrent for that property is if that address had come up in searching the house/car/office, etc. I have to wonder if they considered taking Robert there.

                      so little has been revealed about that property.

              • AnnaZed
                10/07/2009 at 1:29 PM

                Maybe Robert was a naturally thrifty sort of person maybe combined with being a person conscious of the need for people with sedantary jobs to walk or exercise at any opportunity, disinclined to take cabs a short distance when he could walk. Isn’t he described as having walked to his various other destinations that night ~ the seminar, the sandwich with the colleague, the RFA office itself?

                I know that this formulation makes him later to Swann St., but maybe sooner to the shower.

                In that case he would have arrived at Swann St. sweaty and uncomfortable in his business suit. Maybe he headed straight to the shower (no water, no chat in kitchen, no spider) saying he would be with them shortly. Maybe they just attacked him then and there in the shower. Then the moving would be from the shower, maybe to Dylan’s room and then to the created tableau in the guest room.

                I have decided to drop my obsession with his mouth guard and consider the possibility that they had the peculiar prescience to put it in his mouth themselves.

                • Craig
                  10/07/2009 at 1:51 PM

                  Anna – Unless the perp(s) rifled through Robert’s belongings, how would they know about a mouthguard?

                  I still think it remains a small yet important piece of the sotry.

                  • CDinDC
                    10/07/2009 at 3:58 PM

                    Maybe Robert had been in the room long enough to lay his things out. Maybe the mouthguard was on the table WITH his blackberry.

                    Tamper with the blackberry. Insert mouthguard. Switch knifes. Stage. Stage. Stage.

          • John Grisham
            10/05/2009 at 3:59 PM

            Thanks NYer. That 10:22 time seems to be based on phone records. The content of the call (“saying he would be there shortly”) could only be based on Joe’s account of the call. So, it seems it is still a very open question as to when Joe actually left RFA and arrived at Swann St, given (as Craig notes) how the household appears to have also been making use of Robert’s cell phone.

            • Bea
              10/05/2009 at 8:15 PM

              True, John, but depending on cell tower location, they might be able to say definitively if he called FROM RFA at 10:22 or if Joe called himself once Robert arrived (and the plan was underway). Maybe it’s the same cell towers but I hope someone is checking . . .

              • Clio
                10/05/2009 at 10:13 PM

                For the sake of discussion — assuming that the perps faked the call at 10:22 — how much longer would that extend the time line to murder?

                Would that push Robert’s potential arrival at the Swann back to 9:55 or 10:00, just in time for Joe to miss the entire new episode of Project Runway? Or, did the RFA staff definitively time-stamp Robert’s handshaking as between 9:45 and 10:20, making an earlier arrival to the townhouse impossible?

                If (and it is a big if) Joe or Dylan had Robert’s phone at 10:22, then Robert must have been drugged with the water immediately after he first arrived at Swann, out from the muggy evening air. In this scenario, the trouple’s trap had been already sprung for their unsuspecting prey!

          • John Grisham
            10/05/2009 at 9:31 PM

            You’d think that the MPD has identified someone who is, to date, the “last known person to see Robert alive” before he reached 1509 Swann Street. Do we know who that person is, and at what time they last saw Robert?

            • Craig
              10/06/2009 at 10:35 AM

              John – Obviously the last person to see Robert alive was the monster(s) inside of 1509 Swann Street that plunged a knife into his heart.

              The last ‘known” person was Robert’s RFA colleague John Lindburg, who spent time with Robert that evening at the CLE.

              • John Grisham
                10/06/2009 at 2:03 PM

                Has John Lindburg ever disclosed at what time he last saw Robert?

                • Nelly
                  10/06/2009 at 2:11 PM

                  Around 9:30 p.m., I believe. Not to sound hoity-toity, since we can only conjecture about the timeline, but I’m not baffled about how this all could have come down in a short amount of time. 10:22pm, Robert Wone leaves RFA. Takes short cab ride to Swann St., possibly getting there even before 10:30pm. Makes chit chat, drinks something that could have been spiked, goes upstairs. Gets immobilized, assaulted, then stabbed around 11pm. How long could it possibly take to stab someone 3 times? Maybe only a couple of seconds. The perps clean up, Victor sees it and screams, they continue cleaning up and have someone scoop up the incriminating evidence and dispose of it. Once they know Robert is dead or surely going to die, and the evidence is out the door, Victor calls 911 after 11:40pm. It’s entirely plausible and possible.

                  • CDinDC
                    10/06/2009 at 2:22 PM

                    Agree 100%, Nelly. If the defendants took care not to get blood everywhere, clean up wouldn’t have been that difficult.

                    I still think he was stabbed in the shower. Some don’t agree, but given the nature of the wounds (sharp edge up and at 10 o’clock to 4 o’clock), an over the shoulder from behind movement could easily have been accomplished with Robert placed in the tub/shower.

                • CDinDC
                  10/06/2009 at 2:13 PM

                  From an August 2006 Law.com article:

                  On the night of Aug. 2, Wone, who started his job at Radio Free Asia about a month earlier, met up with his counterpart at Radio Free Europe, John Lindburg. The two shared an early dinner at Subway on 18th Street Northwest and then walked over to a continuing legal education class at the D.C. Bar. During the approximately three-hour-long course on federal grants, the two exchanged notes and whispers, Lindburg says. “He clearly wanted to learn as much as possible that could help him at his job,” he says.

                  The class ended at 9:15, and while the two were walking back to the Metro Center Metro station, Wone told Lindburg he needed to head back to the office to meet up with workers on the night shift. Lindburg last saw Wone when he exited at the Farragut North station.

                  So, the class ended at 9:15. They walked to the metro together and that is the last time Lindburg saw Robert Wone. I believe I remember hearing that the class was near the metro. So 9:30ish?

                  • CDinDC
                    10/06/2009 at 2:18 PM

                    And according to Google maps, the DC Bar ASsociation (1101 K Street, NW) is .40 miles from Metro Center (607 13th Street, NW), and should take no more than 9 minutes walking.

                  • John Grisham
                    10/06/2009 at 2:49 PM

                    If Lindburg was the last known person to see Robert before he reached Swann Street, then we’d have to assume that Robert never went back to RFA to “meet up with workers on the night shift.” Robert could have hopped in a cab and been over to Swann Street just after 9:30.

                    • Clio
                      10/06/2009 at 3:15 PM

                      If that is the case, then his arrival could have been during Joe’s viewing of last week’s episode of Project Runway: as recorded by the handwritten police notes. “10:30” in that same set of notes could have been Joe’s way of truncating the timeline to make the alleged blitzkrieg by the intruder seem to be the only plausible theory.

                    • Bea
                      10/06/2009 at 5:20 PM

                      I may be wrong but thought there were building records showing he’d been at RFA after the CLE.

                    • rose
                      10/06/2009 at 9:55 PM

                      If not going to RFA, why had he planned to spend the night weeks in advance? I thought we were certain he’d been at RFA – surely the colleagues confirmed he had been?

                    • Doug
                      10/07/2009 at 9:39 AM

                      RFA has requested its employees and spokespeople not to speak publicly on this case. However we believe RFA security would have a log of who entered the building that night, and when. Also, while not official confirmation, sources at RFA have strongly suggested that Robert was indeed at headquarters that evening.
                      -Doug, co-editor

                    • Max
                      10/07/2009 at 3:56 PM

                      I think it will turn up that way that Robert was in the RFA headquaters after departing Lindburg and all in all it is very interesting eventually to learn when he arrived and leave the office.

                      What Im very much pondering is that
                      1. How premeditated was this crime and
                      2. Was the murder deliberate

                      Many conversations in this site about various aspects and possiblities of the crime, comes down to those two questions.

                      My view is that there were definetly premeditation with the crime: Joe and Dylan (and Victor, mayby) had plans for Robert for sure. But what im not sure is wheter they intented to kill him.

                      The whole situation/scene is totally making them look guilty, so if they were planning to murder him, it seems very odd way to do it.

                      I think that Joe and Dylan planned to drug Robert and then have a way with him, but then something happened and they had to kill him.
                      And this is were the lawyer mind starts to work.
                      1. People know that Robert is staying night with their home, so very risky to just dump his body and then say later that he left in the morning and then just disapeared.
                      2. If they wait untill the morning (and that way have more time to get stories straight and so on..) it would be hard to explain that they did not hear anything at all during the night
                      3. They had to risk cleaning him up so that theres no dna and other evidence left.

                      This is something I can very easily imagine going through Joes mind during the first minutes after the murder

                      With that mind set, it’s also very easy to see Joe writing those two e-mails with Roberts Blackberry (why did he not sent them, that I dont know)

                    • CDinDC
                      10/07/2009 at 4:07 PM

                      I have two scenarios.

                      1. Perhaps Robert was drugged and became aware enough to know what was happening, resulting in a “need” to kill him to prevent rape charges.

                      2. Perhaps Joe became enraged with Robert. Rebuffed maybe? Joe angry decides to drug Robert to have his way. Murder ensues to cover up the crime of rape.

                      I tend to lean toward scenario 2. Joe is a control freak. And certain long term drug use (ketamine) can cause violence issues. Just working Joe’s personality into the equation, I strongly lean toward scenario 2.

                    • Max
                      10/07/2009 at 4:29 PM

                      Do you mean that scenario 1 is with premeditation and screnario 2 with out?

                      Also, there has been talk in this site about drugs used by Joe and Dylan. Do you know is there any reports of them looking like their were under the influence of drugs when police arrived at the scene? And also were there any drug tests for them later in the police station?

                    • cdindc
                      10/07/2009 at 6:57 PM

                      I don’t think premeditated murder for either scenario. I think the murder was a very poor after-thought to a very poor choice (rape).

                      I don’t recall any police reports saying they looked under the influence. I do recall reading that one of them (Dylan perhaps) said nothing to the 1st responders and walked directly into his room. Seems a bit numb to me.

                      Drug tests? I don’t recall that I’ve heard anything about drug tests. (Except drug sniffing dogs finding a scent in two places in the house.)

                    • NYer
                      10/08/2009 at 11:24 AM

                      CD, I meant to write the same thing you did about the question of drugs. DW’s odd avoidant behavior was what struck me, and could very well indicate he was under the influence of something. As previously discussed, JP’s over-anxiousness to speak and parade around in only his underwear is a possible indication to drug use.
                      My feeling is that the trio never were tested for drugs, because that would have been the furthest thing from the first responders’ minds that night (for good reason). However, it’s interesting to note that witnesses are generally permitted to testify as to whether a person appears intoxicated. I wonder if Kirschner/Martin will aggressively pursue this.

                    • CDinDC
                      10/08/2009 at 12:36 PM

                      Agree, NYer.

                      Joe’s behavior, as well, could be indicative of drug use. Hyper perhaps?

                      I said this many times….ketamine taken in smaller doses can cause a detached behavior.

                      And if they did, indeed, use drugs that night, they could have used different drugs resulting in different behavior.

                  • John Grisham
                    10/07/2009 at 12:02 AM

                    Perhaps a silly question, but why didn’t Lindburg catch the Metro at Dupont? Presumably, Robert and John were simply enjoying a nice walk and a good chat.

                    • CDinDC
                      10/07/2009 at 9:31 AM

                      John, the class was much closer to Metro Center than the Dupont Circle stop.

                    • John Grisham
                      10/07/2009 at 1:13 PM

                      CD, are you sure? The map posted on this site on August 2, 2009 seems to indicate the seminar was held right next to the Subway they dined at that evening, within a block from Dupont Circle.

              • John Grisham
                10/07/2009 at 12:27 AM

                I’m wondering. And its a wildcat thought. A thought intended to leave no stones unturned. Did Joseph Price and John A. Lindburg know each other?

                • Bea
                  10/07/2009 at 3:05 AM

                  Lindberg was quoted as saying that he’d met Robert and was getting to know him as his “equivalent” at RFA since he was General Counsel at RF Europe. They had dinner, presumably to talk shop, and go to the CLE.

                  • Clio
                    10/07/2009 at 9:49 AM

                    Did Lindberg know that evening to where Robert was going after class and RFA? I guess, as Max and Craig point out, Robert had the packed bag with him at the grants class.

                    Did Lindberg know Joe? I greatly doubt that coincidence, unless Lindberg was a recent alum of W&M or UVa Law, or was openly gay, or had worked as a white collar defense attorney. All of which, I’m sure, that the police have checked over and over again, finding no links.

                    But how long did Robert stay at RFA? That is the much more important question.

      • John Grisham
        10/06/2009 at 4:02 PM

        Craig’s initial insight is making more and more sense. If the perps used Robert’s cell phone to make it appear he was going to call home around 11:00, why wouldn’t we also suspect them of “manufacturing” Robert’s 10:22 call as well? Is there any evidence that would preclude Robert from being at 1509 Swann Street as early as 9:40 or thereabouts, other than the 10:22 call record and the claims of the household?

        • Craig
          10/06/2009 at 4:25 PM

          I’m more up-in-the-air on the timeline than ever. For a point of reference, here’s Judy Tseng’s January 2007 piece we republished earlier this summer.

          • David
            10/06/2009 at 4:41 PM

            From a Law.com article in August 2006, this is one of the closest time stamps that Robert was at RFA, although it is vaque, “Radio Free Asia Communications Director Sarah Jackson-Han says that Wone returned to the office that night, although she could not confirm whom he may have spoken with that evening.”

            David

            • Max
              10/06/2009 at 4:54 PM

              I remember reading that Roberts wife packed him a bag for sleep over, was it found on the murder scene? And if so, did Robert had it with him when he met Lindburg?

              • Bea
                10/06/2009 at 5:29 PM

                Good point, Max. If there are no records as to when Robert left RFA, my sense is that it likely didn’t take him until 10:30 to get there. 9:15 leaves Lindberg; 9:30 calls wife to say goodnight. At 10:22 he calls Joe? While someone at RFA might have spoken with him, or he may have walked around shaking hands or caught up on email, it does seem like a long time to linger. It would not shock me to hear that Joe “made” the 10:22 call (cell towers evidence? – would seem to be terrific evidence if it pans out).

                I would love to know what hard evidence there is about building records, him signing in/out of his work computer, any witnesses. Prosecutors, are you reading these posts?

              • Craig
                10/06/2009 at 10:29 PM

                Max – You’re right about the bag. We assume Robert’s possessions including that we recovered from the scene and entered into evidence. That may be among the items that still await testing. Or retesting.

                And welcome aboard. Good luck getting up to speed.

              • Just Another Friend
                10/07/2009 at 11:18 AM

                If he was planning to head back to the office after the DC Bar class, he may not have taken it to the class. His plan may have been to go to back the office, meet the night shift, pick up the overnight bag, and go on to Swann St.

                • Clio
                  10/07/2009 at 11:51 AM

                  Yes, that makes more sense. Why would you lug an overnight bag to a three-hour-class only to go back to your office?

                  I have often taken stuff around with me that, in hindsight, I should left in an office or at home. But Robert was especially efficient, and he was not an absent-minded professor.

                  So, then, do we know for sure that Lindberg saw Robert with the packed bag?

                  • Bea
                    10/07/2009 at 12:54 PM

                    I don’t recall it having been mentioned. My guess is that the bag was at the office.

                    • Clio
                      10/07/2009 at 1:28 PM

                      So, if the bag was not taken to the class yet was back at the office, then that is further proof that Robert did go to RFA that night. How long exactly was he there remains the open question, at least to the public (if not, I trust, to police investigators.)

  5. Bea
    10/05/2009 at 1:13 PM

    Wow – thanks to all!

    My reading (may be wrong) is that Robert was killed in the guest room, moved from the guest room during clean up, then “put” back in the guest room bed. Again, this ONLY makes sense if they planned to take the body somewhere to “dispose” of it. What made them change their minds is key – it must’ve been quite disturbing to make them “go” with a very implausible story of an intruder-who-cleans-up-after-himself. Are we back to Victor’s scream and/or unwillingness to go along with moving the body? That he said he was calling 911 regardless?

    I had in my head that the stab wounds were an hour old though I hadn’t been able to find it – this from months ago when I argued timeline and that Robert was killed before 11 pm. This may have been the source though it doesn’t ring a bell. If Robert was killed right before Dylan/Joe said they “went upstairs to go to bed” (seed of truth) around 11, then the duo had time to clean/plan until the “scream” which could have been as late as 11:35.

    I keep wondering: is the scream the reason they aborted the plan? I wonder if Victor’s awakening and saying ‘we need to call 911’ because the other two lied to HIM at first, may account for the 15 minutes (or longer, depending) of getting HIM under control and V arguing with the two of them that disposing of the body is idiocy. Joe would have realized – sooner or later – that moving the body would all but lock them behind bars for good.

    Anyone else feel like it’s so close but so damned elusive??

    • Craig
      10/05/2009 at 2:47 PM

      This line sticks out, “Detectives estimate those wounds were at least an hour old.”

      If that’s the case, and if the detectives arrived around midnight then that places the stabbing occuring well before 11:00pm.

      I’m starting to have even more misgivings about the entire timeline (10:30pm arrival), possible activity on the patio, the garden hose, the drain, and the 10:22pm call Robert supposedly made to Swann Street before his arrival.

      If that call was made from his BBerry and NOT a land line at RFA, it’s entirely possible that whoever may have drafted his unsent emails could’ve easily dialed the Swann Street house too from that phone….

      The background and off-the-record comments Gary Reals got from his MPD sources seemed pretty definitive and confident, not just idle speculation. This is weird. Again, hmmm….

      • John Grisham
        10/05/2009 at 2:55 PM

        Don’t we have a precise time that Robert is seen leaving and/or clocked out of RFA?

        • Bea
          10/05/2009 at 3:05 PM

          I thought so, too, John. But I can’t find it.

        • NYer
          10/05/2009 at 3:21 PM

          According to the WaPo article by Duggan: “Colleagues said he arrived at the radio station before 10. At 10:22 p.m., finished shaking hands with the staff, he called the Swann Street townhouse from his office, saying he would be there shortly.” The office is said to be about a mile walk from 1509.

          • CDinDC
            10/05/2009 at 3:38 PM

            If Robert walked the mile, it may have taken him less than 20….I walk a just shy of a mile from Kalorama down Connecticut to my office in the morning….takes me 20 minutes. I’m not a moderate walker. (not slow/not fast).

            He may have taken a cab which would have gotten him there in minutes.

            I still believe that it was Robert that screamed when attacked. Perhaps Robert’s scream woke Victor up.

            • CDinDC
              10/05/2009 at 3:39 PM

              I AM a moderate walker, I should say.

            • Craig
              10/05/2009 at 4:01 PM

              Agree. It was a hot and steamy night and the walk to Swann would’ve been misearable. Robert would’ve been just moments away by cab.

              Damn – Nothing fits in this timeline no matter how I look at it. Unless of course one believes Robert was killed just moments after his arrival…. If that’s the case, where and how do the injections fit into that scenario. And then there’s always the “why.”

              But maybe it’s best for now to give up on the whys… That’s always the most unsettling piece of the puzzle(s).

              • David
                10/05/2009 at 4:17 PM

                What fits best is this was a premeditated sexual assault and premeditated murder. The murder may have been necessary only to prevent identification of the perpertrators, but the assualt was definitely premeditated. The perpertrators moved immediately upon Robert’s arrival to sexually assault him (GHB in drink, followed by paralytic injections.) The murder followed because they did not fully think through these implications but quickly realized that they would be indentified (it was conconcted as part of a sexual fantasy). Or the murder was always part of the plan. However, this is the best explanation that fits the timeline of the events that evening. It is a very scary thought to entertain. We want to think this was something that got out of hand, but the evidence, to my mind, simply doesn’t stack up that way.

                David

                • CDinDC
                  10/05/2009 at 4:39 PM

                  I have to agree David. Things were done in very short order. Crimes of passion (anger being a passion) don’t usually go in an orderly fashion. This crime seems to have been orchestrated.

                  • Bea
                    10/05/2009 at 5:06 PM

                    I keep thinking that the moved-body-twice and clean-up MUST have been due to a change in plans; perhaps the original plan WAS to dump Robert’s body elsewhere. But perhaps that assumption is wrong – maybe the reason they moved-then-cleaned-then-moved has to do with mixed DNA, as in Joe and Dylan’s, all over the ‘mat’ or floor or wherever. Even if it looked ridiculous to ‘clean’ it was better than the alternative of having one’s DNA mixed with Robert’s on the bed/wall/floor.

                    Robert’s semen was everywhere except his hands and lips (if I recall correctly). Not just his rectum but also on his genitalia and thighs. I can see how a shower wouldn’t get to the rectum, but thighs and genitalia? I think the boys were concerned with their own DNA mixed in with the blood all over his body. Or they used the stim AFTER they cleaned/showered?

                    I waffle but keep thinking it would have made much more sense to left the mess – or most of it – suggesting that the plan may have been to dump his body. I freely admit I don’t know much about boys’ S & M play, but it would seem that one would have a pretty good idea where one’s DNA would end up.

                    • Clio
                      10/05/2009 at 7:58 PM

                      I am intrigued by Bea’s last question above. Given the unlimited potential of the depravity of the defendants, why would even they use that infernal machine on Robert AFTER they had cleaned up the scene? If they did that, then was it an intentional attempt to throw off any impending investigation?

                    • CDinDC
                      10/05/2009 at 10:05 PM

                      Bea,

                      re your thought about disposing of Robert’s body, I’ve always wondered about that abandoned house/lot in NE DC. The only reason the MPD would have secured a search warrent for that property is if that address had come up in searching the house/car/office, etc. I have to wonder if they considered taking Robert there.

                      so little has been revealed about that property.

              • AnnaZed
                10/07/2009 at 1:29 PM

                Maybe Robert was a naturally thrifty sort of person maybe combined with being a person conscious of the need for people with sedantary jobs to walk or exercise at any opportunity, disinclined to take cabs a short distance when he could walk. Isn’t he described as having walked to his various other destinations that night ~ the seminar, the sandwich with the colleague, the RFA office itself?

                I know that this formulation makes him later to Swann St., but maybe sooner to the shower.

                In that case he would have arrived at Swann St. sweaty and uncomfortable in his business suit. Maybe he headed straight to the shower (no water, no chat in kitchen, no spider) saying he would be with them shortly. Maybe they just attacked him then and there in the shower. Then the moving would be from the shower, maybe to Dylan’s room and then to the created tableau in the guest room.

                I have decided to drop my obsession with his mouth guard and consider the possibility that they had the peculiar prescience to put it in his mouth themselves.

                • Craig
                  10/07/2009 at 1:51 PM

                  Anna – Unless the perp(s) rifled through Robert’s belongings, how would they know about a mouthguard?

                  I still think it remains a small yet important piece of the sotry.

                  • CDinDC
                    10/07/2009 at 3:58 PM

                    Maybe Robert had been in the room long enough to lay his things out. Maybe the mouthguard was on the table WITH his blackberry.

                    Tamper with the blackberry. Insert mouthguard. Switch knifes. Stage. Stage. Stage.

          • John Grisham
            10/05/2009 at 3:59 PM

            Thanks NYer. That 10:22 time seems to be based on phone records. The content of the call (“saying he would be there shortly”) could only be based on Joe’s account of the call. So, it seems it is still a very open question as to when Joe actually left RFA and arrived at Swann St, given (as Craig notes) how the household appears to have also been making use of Robert’s cell phone.

            • Bea
              10/05/2009 at 8:15 PM

              True, John, but depending on cell tower location, they might be able to say definitively if he called FROM RFA at 10:22 or if Joe called himself once Robert arrived (and the plan was underway). Maybe it’s the same cell towers but I hope someone is checking . . .

              • Clio
                10/05/2009 at 10:13 PM

                For the sake of discussion — assuming that the perps faked the call at 10:22 — how much longer would that extend the time line to murder?

                Would that push Robert’s potential arrival at the Swann back to 9:55 or 10:00, just in time for Joe to miss the entire new episode of Project Runway? Or, did the RFA staff definitively time-stamp Robert’s handshaking as between 9:45 and 10:20, making an earlier arrival to the townhouse impossible?

                If (and it is a big if) Joe or Dylan had Robert’s phone at 10:22, then Robert must have been drugged with the water immediately after he first arrived at Swann, out from the muggy evening air. In this scenario, the trouple’s trap had been already sprung for their unsuspecting prey!

          • John Grisham
            10/05/2009 at 9:31 PM

            You’d think that the MPD has identified someone who is, to date, the “last known person to see Robert alive” before he reached 1509 Swann Street. Do we know who that person is, and at what time they last saw Robert?

            • Craig
              10/06/2009 at 10:35 AM

              John – Obviously the last person to see Robert alive was the monster(s) inside of 1509 Swann Street that plunged a knife into his heart.

              The last ‘known” person was Robert’s RFA colleague John Lindburg, who spent time with Robert that evening at the CLE.

              • John Grisham
                10/06/2009 at 2:03 PM

                Has John Lindburg ever disclosed at what time he last saw Robert?

                • Nelly
                  10/06/2009 at 2:11 PM

                  Around 9:30 p.m., I believe. Not to sound hoity-toity, since we can only conjecture about the timeline, but I’m not baffled about how this all could have come down in a short amount of time. 10:22pm, Robert Wone leaves RFA. Takes short cab ride to Swann St., possibly getting there even before 10:30pm. Makes chit chat, drinks something that could have been spiked, goes upstairs. Gets immobilized, assaulted, then stabbed around 11pm. How long could it possibly take to stab someone 3 times? Maybe only a couple of seconds. The perps clean up, Victor sees it and screams, they continue cleaning up and have someone scoop up the incriminating evidence and dispose of it. Once they know Robert is dead or surely going to die, and the evidence is out the door, Victor calls 911 after 11:40pm. It’s entirely plausible and possible.

                  • CDinDC
                    10/06/2009 at 2:22 PM

                    Agree 100%, Nelly. If the defendants took care not to get blood everywhere, clean up wouldn’t have been that difficult.

                    I still think he was stabbed in the shower. Some don’t agree, but given the nature of the wounds (sharp edge up and at 10 o’clock to 4 o’clock), an over the shoulder from behind movement could easily have been accomplished with Robert placed in the tub/shower.

                • CDinDC
                  10/06/2009 at 2:13 PM

                  From an August 2006 Law.com article:

                  On the night of Aug. 2, Wone, who started his job at Radio Free Asia about a month earlier, met up with his counterpart at Radio Free Europe, John Lindburg. The two shared an early dinner at Subway on 18th Street Northwest and then walked over to a continuing legal education class at the D.C. Bar. During the approximately three-hour-long course on federal grants, the two exchanged notes and whispers, Lindburg says. “He clearly wanted to learn as much as possible that could help him at his job,” he says.

                  The class ended at 9:15, and while the two were walking back to the Metro Center Metro station, Wone told Lindburg he needed to head back to the office to meet up with workers on the night shift. Lindburg last saw Wone when he exited at the Farragut North station.

                  So, the class ended at 9:15. They walked to the metro together and that is the last time Lindburg saw Robert Wone. I believe I remember hearing that the class was near the metro. So 9:30ish?

                  • CDinDC
                    10/06/2009 at 2:18 PM

                    And according to Google maps, the DC Bar ASsociation (1101 K Street, NW) is .40 miles from Metro Center (607 13th Street, NW), and should take no more than 9 minutes walking.

                  • John Grisham
                    10/06/2009 at 2:49 PM

                    If Lindburg was the last known person to see Robert before he reached Swann Street, then we’d have to assume that Robert never went back to RFA to “meet up with workers on the night shift.” Robert could have hopped in a cab and been over to Swann Street just after 9:30.

                    • Clio
                      10/06/2009 at 3:15 PM

                      If that is the case, then his arrival could have been during Joe’s viewing of last week’s episode of Project Runway: as recorded by the handwritten police notes. “10:30” in that same set of notes could have been Joe’s way of truncating the timeline to make the alleged blitzkrieg by the intruder seem to be the only plausible theory.

                    • Bea
                      10/06/2009 at 5:20 PM

                      I may be wrong but thought there were building records showing he’d been at RFA after the CLE.

                    • rose
                      10/06/2009 at 9:55 PM

                      If not going to RFA, why had he planned to spend the night weeks in advance? I thought we were certain he’d been at RFA – surely the colleagues confirmed he had been?

                    • Doug
                      10/07/2009 at 9:39 AM

                      RFA has requested its employees and spokespeople not to speak publicly on this case. However we believe RFA security would have a log of who entered the building that night, and when. Also, while not official confirmation, sources at RFA have strongly suggested that Robert was indeed at headquarters that evening.
                      -Doug, co-editor

                    • Max
                      10/07/2009 at 3:56 PM

                      I think it will turn up that way that Robert was in the RFA headquaters after departing Lindburg and all in all it is very interesting eventually to learn when he arrived and leave the office.

                      What Im very much pondering is that
                      1. How premeditated was this crime and
                      2. Was the murder deliberate

                      Many conversations in this site about various aspects and possiblities of the crime, comes down to those two questions.

                      My view is that there were definetly premeditation with the crime: Joe and Dylan (and Victor, mayby) had plans for Robert for sure. But what im not sure is wheter they intented to kill him.

                      The whole situation/scene is totally making them look guilty, so if they were planning to murder him, it seems very odd way to do it.

                      I think that Joe and Dylan planned to drug Robert and then have a way with him, but then something happened and they had to kill him.
                      And this is were the lawyer mind starts to work.
                      1. People know that Robert is staying night with their home, so very risky to just dump his body and then say later that he left in the morning and then just disapeared.
                      2. If they wait untill the morning (and that way have more time to get stories straight and so on..) it would be hard to explain that they did not hear anything at all during the night
                      3. They had to risk cleaning him up so that theres no dna and other evidence left.

                      This is something I can very easily imagine going through Joes mind during the first minutes after the murder

                      With that mind set, it’s also very easy to see Joe writing those two e-mails with Roberts Blackberry (why did he not sent them, that I dont know)

                    • CDinDC
                      10/07/2009 at 4:07 PM

                      I have two scenarios.

                      1. Perhaps Robert was drugged and became aware enough to know what was happening, resulting in a “need” to kill him to prevent rape charges.

                      2. Perhaps Joe became enraged with Robert. Rebuffed maybe? Joe angry decides to drug Robert to have his way. Murder ensues to cover up the crime of rape.

                      I tend to lean toward scenario 2. Joe is a control freak. And certain long term drug use (ketamine) can cause violence issues. Just working Joe’s personality into the equation, I strongly lean toward scenario 2.

                    • Max
                      10/07/2009 at 4:29 PM

                      Do you mean that scenario 1 is with premeditation and screnario 2 with out?

                      Also, there has been talk in this site about drugs used by Joe and Dylan. Do you know is there any reports of them looking like their were under the influence of drugs when police arrived at the scene? And also were there any drug tests for them later in the police station?

                    • cdindc
                      10/07/2009 at 6:57 PM

                      I don’t think premeditated murder for either scenario. I think the murder was a very poor after-thought to a very poor choice (rape).

                      I don’t recall any police reports saying they looked under the influence. I do recall reading that one of them (Dylan perhaps) said nothing to the 1st responders and walked directly into his room. Seems a bit numb to me.

                      Drug tests? I don’t recall that I’ve heard anything about drug tests. (Except drug sniffing dogs finding a scent in two places in the house.)

                    • NYer
                      10/08/2009 at 11:24 AM

                      CD, I meant to write the same thing you did about the question of drugs. DW’s odd avoidant behavior was what struck me, and could very well indicate he was under the influence of something. As previously discussed, JP’s over-anxiousness to speak and parade around in only his underwear is a possible indication to drug use.
                      My feeling is that the trio never were tested for drugs, because that would have been the furthest thing from the first responders’ minds that night (for good reason). However, it’s interesting to note that witnesses are generally permitted to testify as to whether a person appears intoxicated. I wonder if Kirschner/Martin will aggressively pursue this.

                    • CDinDC
                      10/08/2009 at 12:36 PM

                      Agree, NYer.

                      Joe’s behavior, as well, could be indicative of drug use. Hyper perhaps?

                      I said this many times….ketamine taken in smaller doses can cause a detached behavior.

                      And if they did, indeed, use drugs that night, they could have used different drugs resulting in different behavior.

                  • John Grisham
                    10/07/2009 at 12:02 AM

                    Perhaps a silly question, but why didn’t Lindburg catch the Metro at Dupont? Presumably, Robert and John were simply enjoying a nice walk and a good chat.

                    • CDinDC
                      10/07/2009 at 9:31 AM

                      John, the class was much closer to Metro Center than the Dupont Circle stop.

                    • John Grisham
                      10/07/2009 at 1:13 PM

                      CD, are you sure? The map posted on this site on August 2, 2009 seems to indicate the seminar was held right next to the Subway they dined at that evening, within a block from Dupont Circle.

              • John Grisham
                10/07/2009 at 12:27 AM

                I’m wondering. And its a wildcat thought. A thought intended to leave no stones unturned. Did Joseph Price and John A. Lindburg know each other?

                • Bea
                  10/07/2009 at 3:05 AM

                  Lindberg was quoted as saying that he’d met Robert and was getting to know him as his “equivalent” at RFA since he was General Counsel at RF Europe. They had dinner, presumably to talk shop, and go to the CLE.

                  • Clio
                    10/07/2009 at 9:49 AM

                    Did Lindberg know that evening to where Robert was going after class and RFA? I guess, as Max and Craig point out, Robert had the packed bag with him at the grants class.

                    Did Lindberg know Joe? I greatly doubt that coincidence, unless Lindberg was a recent alum of W&M or UVa Law, or was openly gay, or had worked as a white collar defense attorney. All of which, I’m sure, that the police have checked over and over again, finding no links.

                    But how long did Robert stay at RFA? That is the much more important question.

      • John Grisham
        10/06/2009 at 4:02 PM

        Craig’s initial insight is making more and more sense. If the perps used Robert’s cell phone to make it appear he was going to call home around 11:00, why wouldn’t we also suspect them of “manufacturing” Robert’s 10:22 call as well? Is there any evidence that would preclude Robert from being at 1509 Swann Street as early as 9:40 or thereabouts, other than the 10:22 call record and the claims of the household?

        • Craig
          10/06/2009 at 4:25 PM

          I’m more up-in-the-air on the timeline than ever. For a point of reference, here’s Judy Tseng’s January 2007 piece we republished earlier this summer.

          • David
            10/06/2009 at 4:41 PM

            From a Law.com article in August 2006, this is one of the closest time stamps that Robert was at RFA, although it is vaque, “Radio Free Asia Communications Director Sarah Jackson-Han says that Wone returned to the office that night, although she could not confirm whom he may have spoken with that evening.”

            David

            • Max
              10/06/2009 at 4:54 PM

              I remember reading that Roberts wife packed him a bag for sleep over, was it found on the murder scene? And if so, did Robert had it with him when he met Lindburg?

              • Bea
                10/06/2009 at 5:29 PM

                Good point, Max. If there are no records as to when Robert left RFA, my sense is that it likely didn’t take him until 10:30 to get there. 9:15 leaves Lindberg; 9:30 calls wife to say goodnight. At 10:22 he calls Joe? While someone at RFA might have spoken with him, or he may have walked around shaking hands or caught up on email, it does seem like a long time to linger. It would not shock me to hear that Joe “made” the 10:22 call (cell towers evidence? – would seem to be terrific evidence if it pans out).

                I would love to know what hard evidence there is about building records, him signing in/out of his work computer, any witnesses. Prosecutors, are you reading these posts?

              • Craig
                10/06/2009 at 10:29 PM

                Max – You’re right about the bag. We assume Robert’s possessions including that we recovered from the scene and entered into evidence. That may be among the items that still await testing. Or retesting.

                And welcome aboard. Good luck getting up to speed.

              • Just Another Friend
                10/07/2009 at 11:18 AM

                If he was planning to head back to the office after the DC Bar class, he may not have taken it to the class. His plan may have been to go to back the office, meet the night shift, pick up the overnight bag, and go on to Swann St.

                • Clio
                  10/07/2009 at 11:51 AM

                  Yes, that makes more sense. Why would you lug an overnight bag to a three-hour-class only to go back to your office?

                  I have often taken stuff around with me that, in hindsight, I should left in an office or at home. But Robert was especially efficient, and he was not an absent-minded professor.

                  So, then, do we know for sure that Lindberg saw Robert with the packed bag?

                  • Bea
                    10/07/2009 at 12:54 PM

                    I don’t recall it having been mentioned. My guess is that the bag was at the office.

                    • Clio
                      10/07/2009 at 1:28 PM

                      So, if the bag was not taken to the class yet was back at the office, then that is further proof that Robert did go to RFA that night. How long exactly was he there remains the open question, at least to the public (if not, I trust, to police investigators.)

  6. Bea
    10/05/2009 at 1:13 PM

    Wow – thanks to all!

    My reading (may be wrong) is that Robert was killed in the guest room, moved from the guest room during clean up, then “put” back in the guest room bed. Again, this ONLY makes sense if they planned to take the body somewhere to “dispose” of it. What made them change their minds is key – it must’ve been quite disturbing to make them “go” with a very implausible story of an intruder-who-cleans-up-after-himself. Are we back to Victor’s scream and/or unwillingness to go along with moving the body? That he said he was calling 911 regardless?

    I had in my head that the stab wounds were an hour old though I hadn’t been able to find it – this from months ago when I argued timeline and that Robert was killed before 11 pm. This may have been the source though it doesn’t ring a bell. If Robert was killed right before Dylan/Joe said they “went upstairs to go to bed” (seed of truth) around 11, then the duo had time to clean/plan until the “scream” which could have been as late as 11:35.

    I keep wondering: is the scream the reason they aborted the plan? I wonder if Victor’s awakening and saying ‘we need to call 911’ because the other two lied to HIM at first, may account for the 15 minutes (or longer, depending) of getting HIM under control and V arguing with the two of them that disposing of the body is idiocy. Joe would have realized – sooner or later – that moving the body would all but lock them behind bars for good.

    Anyone else feel like it’s so close but so damned elusive??

    • Craig
      10/05/2009 at 2:47 PM

      This line sticks out, “Detectives estimate those wounds were at least an hour old.”

      If that’s the case, and if the detectives arrived around midnight then that places the stabbing occuring well before 11:00pm.

      I’m starting to have even more misgivings about the entire timeline (10:30pm arrival), possible activity on the patio, the garden hose, the drain, and the 10:22pm call Robert supposedly made to Swann Street before his arrival.

      If that call was made from his BBerry and NOT a land line at RFA, it’s entirely possible that whoever may have drafted his unsent emails could’ve easily dialed the Swann Street house too from that phone….

      The background and off-the-record comments Gary Reals got from his MPD sources seemed pretty definitive and confident, not just idle speculation. This is weird. Again, hmmm….

      • John Grisham
        10/05/2009 at 2:55 PM

        Don’t we have a precise time that Robert is seen leaving and/or clocked out of RFA?

        • Bea
          10/05/2009 at 3:05 PM

          I thought so, too, John. But I can’t find it.

        • NYer
          10/05/2009 at 3:21 PM

          According to the WaPo article by Duggan: “Colleagues said he arrived at the radio station before 10. At 10:22 p.m., finished shaking hands with the staff, he called the Swann Street townhouse from his office, saying he would be there shortly.” The office is said to be about a mile walk from 1509.

          • CDinDC
            10/05/2009 at 3:38 PM

            If Robert walked the mile, it may have taken him less than 20….I walk a just shy of a mile from Kalorama down Connecticut to my office in the morning….takes me 20 minutes. I’m not a moderate walker. (not slow/not fast).

            He may have taken a cab which would have gotten him there in minutes.

            I still believe that it was Robert that screamed when attacked. Perhaps Robert’s scream woke Victor up.

            • CDinDC
              10/05/2009 at 3:39 PM

              I AM a moderate walker, I should say.

            • Craig
              10/05/2009 at 4:01 PM

              Agree. It was a hot and steamy night and the walk to Swann would’ve been misearable. Robert would’ve been just moments away by cab.

              Damn – Nothing fits in this timeline no matter how I look at it. Unless of course one believes Robert was killed just moments after his arrival…. If that’s the case, where and how do the injections fit into that scenario. And then there’s always the “why.”

              But maybe it’s best for now to give up on the whys… That’s always the most unsettling piece of the puzzle(s).

              • David
                10/05/2009 at 4:17 PM

                What fits best is this was a premeditated sexual assault and premeditated murder. The murder may have been necessary only to prevent identification of the perpertrators, but the assualt was definitely premeditated. The perpertrators moved immediately upon Robert’s arrival to sexually assault him (GHB in drink, followed by paralytic injections.) The murder followed because they did not fully think through these implications but quickly realized that they would be indentified (it was conconcted as part of a sexual fantasy). Or the murder was always part of the plan. However, this is the best explanation that fits the timeline of the events that evening. It is a very scary thought to entertain. We want to think this was something that got out of hand, but the evidence, to my mind, simply doesn’t stack up that way.

                David

                • CDinDC
                  10/05/2009 at 4:39 PM

                  I have to agree David. Things were done in very short order. Crimes of passion (anger being a passion) don’t usually go in an orderly fashion. This crime seems to have been orchestrated.

                  • Bea
                    10/05/2009 at 5:06 PM

                    I keep thinking that the moved-body-twice and clean-up MUST have been due to a change in plans; perhaps the original plan WAS to dump Robert’s body elsewhere. But perhaps that assumption is wrong – maybe the reason they moved-then-cleaned-then-moved has to do with mixed DNA, as in Joe and Dylan’s, all over the ‘mat’ or floor or wherever. Even if it looked ridiculous to ‘clean’ it was better than the alternative of having one’s DNA mixed with Robert’s on the bed/wall/floor.

                    Robert’s semen was everywhere except his hands and lips (if I recall correctly). Not just his rectum but also on his genitalia and thighs. I can see how a shower wouldn’t get to the rectum, but thighs and genitalia? I think the boys were concerned with their own DNA mixed in with the blood all over his body. Or they used the stim AFTER they cleaned/showered?

                    I waffle but keep thinking it would have made much more sense to left the mess – or most of it – suggesting that the plan may have been to dump his body. I freely admit I don’t know much about boys’ S & M play, but it would seem that one would have a pretty good idea where one’s DNA would end up.

                    • Clio
                      10/05/2009 at 7:58 PM

                      I am intrigued by Bea’s last question above. Given the unlimited potential of the depravity of the defendants, why would even they use that infernal machine on Robert AFTER they had cleaned up the scene? If they did that, then was it an intentional attempt to throw off any impending investigation?

                    • CDinDC
                      10/05/2009 at 10:05 PM

                      Bea,

                      re your thought about disposing of Robert’s body, I’ve always wondered about that abandoned house/lot in NE DC. The only reason the MPD would have secured a search warrent for that property is if that address had come up in searching the house/car/office, etc. I have to wonder if they considered taking Robert there.

                      so little has been revealed about that property.

              • AnnaZed
                10/07/2009 at 1:29 PM

                Maybe Robert was a naturally thrifty sort of person maybe combined with being a person conscious of the need for people with sedantary jobs to walk or exercise at any opportunity, disinclined to take cabs a short distance when he could walk. Isn’t he described as having walked to his various other destinations that night ~ the seminar, the sandwich with the colleague, the RFA office itself?

                I know that this formulation makes him later to Swann St., but maybe sooner to the shower.

                In that case he would have arrived at Swann St. sweaty and uncomfortable in his business suit. Maybe he headed straight to the shower (no water, no chat in kitchen, no spider) saying he would be with them shortly. Maybe they just attacked him then and there in the shower. Then the moving would be from the shower, maybe to Dylan’s room and then to the created tableau in the guest room.

                I have decided to drop my obsession with his mouth guard and consider the possibility that they had the peculiar prescience to put it in his mouth themselves.

                • Craig
                  10/07/2009 at 1:51 PM

                  Anna – Unless the perp(s) rifled through Robert’s belongings, how would they know about a mouthguard?

                  I still think it remains a small yet important piece of the sotry.

                  • CDinDC
                    10/07/2009 at 3:58 PM

                    Maybe Robert had been in the room long enough to lay his things out. Maybe the mouthguard was on the table WITH his blackberry.

                    Tamper with the blackberry. Insert mouthguard. Switch knifes. Stage. Stage. Stage.

          • John Grisham
            10/05/2009 at 3:59 PM

            Thanks NYer. That 10:22 time seems to be based on phone records. The content of the call (“saying he would be there shortly”) could only be based on Joe’s account of the call. So, it seems it is still a very open question as to when Joe actually left RFA and arrived at Swann St, given (as Craig notes) how the household appears to have also been making use of Robert’s cell phone.

            • Bea
              10/05/2009 at 8:15 PM

              True, John, but depending on cell tower location, they might be able to say definitively if he called FROM RFA at 10:22 or if Joe called himself once Robert arrived (and the plan was underway). Maybe it’s the same cell towers but I hope someone is checking . . .

              • Clio
                10/05/2009 at 10:13 PM

                For the sake of discussion — assuming that the perps faked the call at 10:22 — how much longer would that extend the time line to murder?

                Would that push Robert’s potential arrival at the Swann back to 9:55 or 10:00, just in time for Joe to miss the entire new episode of Project Runway? Or, did the RFA staff definitively time-stamp Robert’s handshaking as between 9:45 and 10:20, making an earlier arrival to the townhouse impossible?

                If (and it is a big if) Joe or Dylan had Robert’s phone at 10:22, then Robert must have been drugged with the water immediately after he first arrived at Swann, out from the muggy evening air. In this scenario, the trouple’s trap had been already sprung for their unsuspecting prey!

          • John Grisham
            10/05/2009 at 9:31 PM

            You’d think that the MPD has identified someone who is, to date, the “last known person to see Robert alive” before he reached 1509 Swann Street. Do we know who that person is, and at what time they last saw Robert?

            • Craig
              10/06/2009 at 10:35 AM

              John – Obviously the last person to see Robert alive was the monster(s) inside of 1509 Swann Street that plunged a knife into his heart.

              The last ‘known” person was Robert’s RFA colleague John Lindburg, who spent time with Robert that evening at the CLE.

              • John Grisham
                10/06/2009 at 2:03 PM

                Has John Lindburg ever disclosed at what time he last saw Robert?

                • Nelly
                  10/06/2009 at 2:11 PM

                  Around 9:30 p.m., I believe. Not to sound hoity-toity, since we can only conjecture about the timeline, but I’m not baffled about how this all could have come down in a short amount of time. 10:22pm, Robert Wone leaves RFA. Takes short cab ride to Swann St., possibly getting there even before 10:30pm. Makes chit chat, drinks something that could have been spiked, goes upstairs. Gets immobilized, assaulted, then stabbed around 11pm. How long could it possibly take to stab someone 3 times? Maybe only a couple of seconds. The perps clean up, Victor sees it and screams, they continue cleaning up and have someone scoop up the incriminating evidence and dispose of it. Once they know Robert is dead or surely going to die, and the evidence is out the door, Victor calls 911 after 11:40pm. It’s entirely plausible and possible.

                  • CDinDC
                    10/06/2009 at 2:22 PM

                    Agree 100%, Nelly. If the defendants took care not to get blood everywhere, clean up wouldn’t have been that difficult.

                    I still think he was stabbed in the shower. Some don’t agree, but given the nature of the wounds (sharp edge up and at 10 o’clock to 4 o’clock), an over the shoulder from behind movement could easily have been accomplished with Robert placed in the tub/shower.

                • CDinDC
                  10/06/2009 at 2:13 PM

                  From an August 2006 Law.com article:

                  On the night of Aug. 2, Wone, who started his job at Radio Free Asia about a month earlier, met up with his counterpart at Radio Free Europe, John Lindburg. The two shared an early dinner at Subway on 18th Street Northwest and then walked over to a continuing legal education class at the D.C. Bar. During the approximately three-hour-long course on federal grants, the two exchanged notes and whispers, Lindburg says. “He clearly wanted to learn as much as possible that could help him at his job,” he says.

                  The class ended at 9:15, and while the two were walking back to the Metro Center Metro station, Wone told Lindburg he needed to head back to the office to meet up with workers on the night shift. Lindburg last saw Wone when he exited at the Farragut North station.

                  So, the class ended at 9:15. They walked to the metro together and that is the last time Lindburg saw Robert Wone. I believe I remember hearing that the class was near the metro. So 9:30ish?

                  • CDinDC
                    10/06/2009 at 2:18 PM

                    And according to Google maps, the DC Bar ASsociation (1101 K Street, NW) is .40 miles from Metro Center (607 13th Street, NW), and should take no more than 9 minutes walking.

                  • John Grisham
                    10/06/2009 at 2:49 PM

                    If Lindburg was the last known person to see Robert before he reached Swann Street, then we’d have to assume that Robert never went back to RFA to “meet up with workers on the night shift.” Robert could have hopped in a cab and been over to Swann Street just after 9:30.

                    • Clio
                      10/06/2009 at 3:15 PM

                      If that is the case, then his arrival could have been during Joe’s viewing of last week’s episode of Project Runway: as recorded by the handwritten police notes. “10:30” in that same set of notes could have been Joe’s way of truncating the timeline to make the alleged blitzkrieg by the intruder seem to be the only plausible theory.

                    • Bea
                      10/06/2009 at 5:20 PM

                      I may be wrong but thought there were building records showing he’d been at RFA after the CLE.

                    • rose
                      10/06/2009 at 9:55 PM

                      If not going to RFA, why had he planned to spend the night weeks in advance? I thought we were certain he’d been at RFA – surely the colleagues confirmed he had been?

                    • Doug
                      10/07/2009 at 9:39 AM

                      RFA has requested its employees and spokespeople not to speak publicly on this case. However we believe RFA security would have a log of who entered the building that night, and when. Also, while not official confirmation, sources at RFA have strongly suggested that Robert was indeed at headquarters that evening.
                      -Doug, co-editor

                    • Max
                      10/07/2009 at 3:56 PM

                      I think it will turn up that way that Robert was in the RFA headquaters after departing Lindburg and all in all it is very interesting eventually to learn when he arrived and leave the office.

                      What Im very much pondering is that
                      1. How premeditated was this crime and
                      2. Was the murder deliberate

                      Many conversations in this site about various aspects and possiblities of the crime, comes down to those two questions.

                      My view is that there were definetly premeditation with the crime: Joe and Dylan (and Victor, mayby) had plans for Robert for sure. But what im not sure is wheter they intented to kill him.

                      The whole situation/scene is totally making them look guilty, so if they were planning to murder him, it seems very odd way to do it.

                      I think that Joe and Dylan planned to drug Robert and then have a way with him, but then something happened and they had to kill him.
                      And this is were the lawyer mind starts to work.
                      1. People know that Robert is staying night with their home, so very risky to just dump his body and then say later that he left in the morning and then just disapeared.
                      2. If they wait untill the morning (and that way have more time to get stories straight and so on..) it would be hard to explain that they did not hear anything at all during the night
                      3. They had to risk cleaning him up so that theres no dna and other evidence left.

                      This is something I can very easily imagine going through Joes mind during the first minutes after the murder

                      With that mind set, it’s also very easy to see Joe writing those two e-mails with Roberts Blackberry (why did he not sent them, that I dont know)

                    • CDinDC
                      10/07/2009 at 4:07 PM

                      I have two scenarios.

                      1. Perhaps Robert was drugged and became aware enough to know what was happening, resulting in a “need” to kill him to prevent rape charges.

                      2. Perhaps Joe became enraged with Robert. Rebuffed maybe? Joe angry decides to drug Robert to have his way. Murder ensues to cover up the crime of rape.

                      I tend to lean toward scenario 2. Joe is a control freak. And certain long term drug use (ketamine) can cause violence issues. Just working Joe’s personality into the equation, I strongly lean toward scenario 2.

                    • Max
                      10/07/2009 at 4:29 PM

                      Do you mean that scenario 1 is with premeditation and screnario 2 with out?

                      Also, there has been talk in this site about drugs used by Joe and Dylan. Do you know is there any reports of them looking like their were under the influence of drugs when police arrived at the scene? And also were there any drug tests for them later in the police station?

                    • cdindc
                      10/07/2009 at 6:57 PM

                      I don’t think premeditated murder for either scenario. I think the murder was a very poor after-thought to a very poor choice (rape).

                      I don’t recall any police reports saying they looked under the influence. I do recall reading that one of them (Dylan perhaps) said nothing to the 1st responders and walked directly into his room. Seems a bit numb to me.

                      Drug tests? I don’t recall that I’ve heard anything about drug tests. (Except drug sniffing dogs finding a scent in two places in the house.)

                    • NYer
                      10/08/2009 at 11:24 AM

                      CD, I meant to write the same thing you did about the question of drugs. DW’s odd avoidant behavior was what struck me, and could very well indicate he was under the influence of something. As previously discussed, JP’s over-anxiousness to speak and parade around in only his underwear is a possible indication to drug use.
                      My feeling is that the trio never were tested for drugs, because that would have been the furthest thing from the first responders’ minds that night (for good reason). However, it’s interesting to note that witnesses are generally permitted to testify as to whether a person appears intoxicated. I wonder if Kirschner/Martin will aggressively pursue this.

                    • CDinDC
                      10/08/2009 at 12:36 PM

                      Agree, NYer.

                      Joe’s behavior, as well, could be indicative of drug use. Hyper perhaps?

                      I said this many times….ketamine taken in smaller doses can cause a detached behavior.

                      And if they did, indeed, use drugs that night, they could have used different drugs resulting in different behavior.

                  • John Grisham
                    10/07/2009 at 12:02 AM

                    Perhaps a silly question, but why didn’t Lindburg catch the Metro at Dupont? Presumably, Robert and John were simply enjoying a nice walk and a good chat.

                    • CDinDC
                      10/07/2009 at 9:31 AM

                      John, the class was much closer to Metro Center than the Dupont Circle stop.

                    • John Grisham
                      10/07/2009 at 1:13 PM

                      CD, are you sure? The map posted on this site on August 2, 2009 seems to indicate the seminar was held right next to the Subway they dined at that evening, within a block from Dupont Circle.

              • John Grisham
                10/07/2009 at 12:27 AM

                I’m wondering. And its a wildcat thought. A thought intended to leave no stones unturned. Did Joseph Price and John A. Lindburg know each other?

                • Bea
                  10/07/2009 at 3:05 AM

                  Lindberg was quoted as saying that he’d met Robert and was getting to know him as his “equivalent” at RFA since he was General Counsel at RF Europe. They had dinner, presumably to talk shop, and go to the CLE.

                  • Clio
                    10/07/2009 at 9:49 AM

                    Did Lindberg know that evening to where Robert was going after class and RFA? I guess, as Max and Craig point out, Robert had the packed bag with him at the grants class.

                    Did Lindberg know Joe? I greatly doubt that coincidence, unless Lindberg was a recent alum of W&M or UVa Law, or was openly gay, or had worked as a white collar defense attorney. All of which, I’m sure, that the police have checked over and over again, finding no links.

                    But how long did Robert stay at RFA? That is the much more important question.

      • John Grisham
        10/06/2009 at 4:02 PM

        Craig’s initial insight is making more and more sense. If the perps used Robert’s cell phone to make it appear he was going to call home around 11:00, why wouldn’t we also suspect them of “manufacturing” Robert’s 10:22 call as well? Is there any evidence that would preclude Robert from being at 1509 Swann Street as early as 9:40 or thereabouts, other than the 10:22 call record and the claims of the household?

        • Craig
          10/06/2009 at 4:25 PM

          I’m more up-in-the-air on the timeline than ever. For a point of reference, here’s Judy Tseng’s January 2007 piece we republished earlier this summer.

          • David
            10/06/2009 at 4:41 PM

            From a Law.com article in August 2006, this is one of the closest time stamps that Robert was at RFA, although it is vaque, “Radio Free Asia Communications Director Sarah Jackson-Han says that Wone returned to the office that night, although she could not confirm whom he may have spoken with that evening.”

            David

            • Max
              10/06/2009 at 4:54 PM

              I remember reading that Roberts wife packed him a bag for sleep over, was it found on the murder scene? And if so, did Robert had it with him when he met Lindburg?

              • Bea
                10/06/2009 at 5:29 PM

                Good point, Max. If there are no records as to when Robert left RFA, my sense is that it likely didn’t take him until 10:30 to get there. 9:15 leaves Lindberg; 9:30 calls wife to say goodnight. At 10:22 he calls Joe? While someone at RFA might have spoken with him, or he may have walked around shaking hands or caught up on email, it does seem like a long time to linger. It would not shock me to hear that Joe “made” the 10:22 call (cell towers evidence? – would seem to be terrific evidence if it pans out).

                I would love to know what hard evidence there is about building records, him signing in/out of his work computer, any witnesses. Prosecutors, are you reading these posts?

              • Craig
                10/06/2009 at 10:29 PM

                Max – You’re right about the bag. We assume Robert’s possessions including that we recovered from the scene and entered into evidence. That may be among the items that still await testing. Or retesting.

                And welcome aboard. Good luck getting up to speed.

              • Just Another Friend
                10/07/2009 at 11:18 AM

                If he was planning to head back to the office after the DC Bar class, he may not have taken it to the class. His plan may have been to go to back the office, meet the night shift, pick up the overnight bag, and go on to Swann St.

                • Clio
                  10/07/2009 at 11:51 AM

                  Yes, that makes more sense. Why would you lug an overnight bag to a three-hour-class only to go back to your office?

                  I have often taken stuff around with me that, in hindsight, I should left in an office or at home. But Robert was especially efficient, and he was not an absent-minded professor.

                  So, then, do we know for sure that Lindberg saw Robert with the packed bag?

                  • Bea
                    10/07/2009 at 12:54 PM

                    I don’t recall it having been mentioned. My guess is that the bag was at the office.

                    • Clio
                      10/07/2009 at 1:28 PM

                      So, if the bag was not taken to the class yet was back at the office, then that is further proof that Robert did go to RFA that night. How long exactly was he there remains the open question, at least to the public (if not, I trust, to police investigators.)

  7. Clio
    10/05/2009 at 1:31 PM

    Thanks, CBS, for at last living up to your “Tiffany Network” legacy. A special thanks goes out to the Garys for keeping it Reals.

    These sentences in the Reals piece are worded in suggestive ways. “Each gave statements … at least one claimed Wone was killed by an intruder … ” Does that mean that the others had a different explanation, or that underwear guy continued to hog the stage even after he put some clothes on?

    “No evidence of any other person being there”: does that eliminate Sarah and/or Michael and/or Louis from being there? John Grisham, call your office.

    The third “nugget” about the open back door (listed above) relates to the unredacted “sentence” from Detective Waid’s notes from the July 29, 2009 court documents. In other words, the actual “back door man” was one of the owners of the townhouse, detectives thought very early on. Wasn’t it Victor who was the most concerned about door chimes that night?

    A piss-elegant “sardine can”: Folts must have been momentarily amused when Joe told the detective that he had bought 1509 Swann at the top of the market. Indicting both the taste and theory of the trouple, the imagery of a “sardine can” is most devastating to the defense!

  8. Clio
    10/05/2009 at 1:31 PM

    Thanks, CBS, for at last living up to your “Tiffany Network” legacy. A special thanks goes out to the Garys for keeping it Reals.

    These sentences in the Reals piece are worded in suggestive ways. “Each gave statements … at least one claimed Wone was killed by an intruder … ” Does that mean that the others had a different explanation, or that underwear guy continued to hog the stage even after he put some clothes on?

    “No evidence of any other person being there”: does that eliminate Sarah and/or Michael and/or Louis from being there? John Grisham, call your office.

    The third “nugget” about the open back door (listed above) relates to the unredacted “sentence” from Detective Waid’s notes from the July 29, 2009 court documents. In other words, the actual “back door man” was one of the owners of the townhouse, detectives thought very early on. Wasn’t it Victor who was the most concerned about door chimes that night?

    A piss-elegant “sardine can”: Folts must have been momentarily amused when Joe told the detective that he had bought 1509 Swann at the top of the market. Indicting both the taste and theory of the trouple, the imagery of a “sardine can” is most devastating to the defense!

  9. Clio
    10/05/2009 at 1:31 PM

    Thanks, CBS, for at last living up to your “Tiffany Network” legacy. A special thanks goes out to the Garys for keeping it Reals.

    These sentences in the Reals piece are worded in suggestive ways. “Each gave statements … at least one claimed Wone was killed by an intruder … ” Does that mean that the others had a different explanation, or that underwear guy continued to hog the stage even after he put some clothes on?

    “No evidence of any other person being there”: does that eliminate Sarah and/or Michael and/or Louis from being there? John Grisham, call your office.

    The third “nugget” about the open back door (listed above) relates to the unredacted “sentence” from Detective Waid’s notes from the July 29, 2009 court documents. In other words, the actual “back door man” was one of the owners of the townhouse, detectives thought very early on. Wasn’t it Victor who was the most concerned about door chimes that night?

    A piss-elegant “sardine can”: Folts must have been momentarily amused when Joe told the detective that he had bought 1509 Swann at the top of the market. Indicting both the taste and theory of the trouple, the imagery of a “sardine can” is most devastating to the defense!

  10. SwannStreetDweller
    10/05/2009 at 11:22 PM

    Looking back at the May 7 timeline, it seems like a lot of information has come to light since that time. Perhaps the eds — in their spare time 😉 could come up with a very detailed “tick-tock” of that evening, indicating the source for each fact. Much of it seems to come from statements made by the accused. If so, and they choose not to give evidence at their trial, how does the prosecution stand a chance if they cant cross-examine the defendants? oh well….

  11. SwannStreetDweller
    10/05/2009 at 11:22 PM

    Looking back at the May 7 timeline, it seems like a lot of information has come to light since that time. Perhaps the eds — in their spare time 😉 could come up with a very detailed “tick-tock” of that evening, indicating the source for each fact. Much of it seems to come from statements made by the accused. If so, and they choose not to give evidence at their trial, how does the prosecution stand a chance if they cant cross-examine the defendants? oh well….

  12. SwannStreetDweller
    10/05/2009 at 11:22 PM

    Looking back at the May 7 timeline, it seems like a lot of information has come to light since that time. Perhaps the eds — in their spare time 😉 could come up with a very detailed “tick-tock” of that evening, indicating the source for each fact. Much of it seems to come from statements made by the accused. If so, and they choose not to give evidence at their trial, how does the prosecution stand a chance if they cant cross-examine the defendants? oh well….

  13. Lyn
    10/06/2009 at 2:41 PM

    Maybe the moving of Robert’s body (x2) was from the bedroom (where he was manipulated and then stabbed) to the shower (explaining why authorities thought he was “cleaned” and why no blood soaked towels or sheets were found in the guest bedroom) and then back to the bedroom (where the he was laid on a bed of newly made sheets and so forth). This would also explain why blood was detected in the plumbing drain trap in the back yard (wash the blood down the shower and traces remained in the trap leading to the main sewage line).

    In my opinion, one of the biggest unanswered questions is where did all of the bloody sheets/towels/etc. go and who got rid of them?

    If I was the D.A., my question would be: “Ok Joe and Victor, you said on the 911 call that Joe was holding a towel to Robert’s wounds – where is that blood soaked towel?”

    I think that one of the housemates took a quick trip to a random dumpster or someone else is involved beyond the trio. I have a hard time believing the trio would involve another person who wasn’t in the house and I don’t think they would have time to get that person to come over, pick up the stuff, and then get out of there (plus there would be phone records of calls made, etc.).

    Maybe there was a fourth person involved but that person was already in the house that night (perhaps a “friend” of Joe or Dylan) participating in some activities. Maybe that person then left with all of the incriminating evidence, thus allowing the trio to remain and work out the story and allowing the trio to “honestly” state that they never left the house that evening after Robert’s arrival (and ensuring that no witness would see one of them out dropping things into a dumpster that night).

    • CDinDC
      10/06/2009 at 7:15 PM

      Lyn says: “In my opinion, one of the biggest unanswered questions is where did all of the bloody sheets/towels/etc. go and who got rid of them? ”

      Lyn, I still firmly believe that Robert was stabbed in the shower. I’m sure people are tired of hearing this, but I base this ON the fact that there was no significant amount of towels etc. In addition, the configuration of his stab wounds. Sharp edge up. 10 to 2. This could have been accomplished by stabbing Robert from behind and over his shoulder.

      The “move 2x” revelation isn’t really a revelation at all. I think it’s something all of us have discussed many times without labelling it as such. Robert would have HAD to have been moved 2x, if not more. Personally, I believe the path would have been from kitchen/upstairs bathroom/guest room (depending on pre-assault theories), into Dylan’s room/Joe’s room/family room upstairs (depending on where he was assaulted) into the bathroom to clean off and THEN into the guestroom (where he was finally laid in the bed).

      Remember the guestroom bedding was virtually undisturbed. The bedding appeared as though Robert was laid on the bedding and didn’t move AT ALL after. So, in my opinion, Robert was laid on the bedding once. Therefore, there was no additional wrinkling or indentations. If Robert had been assaulted and/or stabbed on the bed, the bedding most certainly would have revealed physically movement/activity.

      I agree with your random dumpster comment. There are myriad trashcans, dumpsters, in which someone could have dropped a plain ol’ garbage bag which would have blended in with the rest of the garbage.

      • Clio
        10/06/2009 at 7:29 PM

        And, of course, there remains the question of Sarah —

        Here I cannot help but to remember the 1976 lyrics of Hall and Oates: “Sara Smile · Won’t you smile a while for me · Sara · If you feel like leaving you know you can go · But why don’t you stay until tomorrow” — (at Tom and John’s with the naughty stuff)?

  14. Lyn
    10/06/2009 at 2:41 PM

    Maybe the moving of Robert’s body (x2) was from the bedroom (where he was manipulated and then stabbed) to the shower (explaining why authorities thought he was “cleaned” and why no blood soaked towels or sheets were found in the guest bedroom) and then back to the bedroom (where the he was laid on a bed of newly made sheets and so forth). This would also explain why blood was detected in the plumbing drain trap in the back yard (wash the blood down the shower and traces remained in the trap leading to the main sewage line).

    In my opinion, one of the biggest unanswered questions is where did all of the bloody sheets/towels/etc. go and who got rid of them?

    If I was the D.A., my question would be: “Ok Joe and Victor, you said on the 911 call that Joe was holding a towel to Robert’s wounds – where is that blood soaked towel?”

    I think that one of the housemates took a quick trip to a random dumpster or someone else is involved beyond the trio. I have a hard time believing the trio would involve another person who wasn’t in the house and I don’t think they would have time to get that person to come over, pick up the stuff, and then get out of there (plus there would be phone records of calls made, etc.).

    Maybe there was a fourth person involved but that person was already in the house that night (perhaps a “friend” of Joe or Dylan) participating in some activities. Maybe that person then left with all of the incriminating evidence, thus allowing the trio to remain and work out the story and allowing the trio to “honestly” state that they never left the house that evening after Robert’s arrival (and ensuring that no witness would see one of them out dropping things into a dumpster that night).

    • CDinDC
      10/06/2009 at 7:15 PM

      Lyn says: “In my opinion, one of the biggest unanswered questions is where did all of the bloody sheets/towels/etc. go and who got rid of them? ”

      Lyn, I still firmly believe that Robert was stabbed in the shower. I’m sure people are tired of hearing this, but I base this ON the fact that there was no significant amount of towels etc. In addition, the configuration of his stab wounds. Sharp edge up. 10 to 2. This could have been accomplished by stabbing Robert from behind and over his shoulder.

      The “move 2x” revelation isn’t really a revelation at all. I think it’s something all of us have discussed many times without labelling it as such. Robert would have HAD to have been moved 2x, if not more. Personally, I believe the path would have been from kitchen/upstairs bathroom/guest room (depending on pre-assault theories), into Dylan’s room/Joe’s room/family room upstairs (depending on where he was assaulted) into the bathroom to clean off and THEN into the guestroom (where he was finally laid in the bed).

      Remember the guestroom bedding was virtually undisturbed. The bedding appeared as though Robert was laid on the bedding and didn’t move AT ALL after. So, in my opinion, Robert was laid on the bedding once. Therefore, there was no additional wrinkling or indentations. If Robert had been assaulted and/or stabbed on the bed, the bedding most certainly would have revealed physically movement/activity.

      I agree with your random dumpster comment. There are myriad trashcans, dumpsters, in which someone could have dropped a plain ol’ garbage bag which would have blended in with the rest of the garbage.

      • Clio
        10/06/2009 at 7:29 PM

        And, of course, there remains the question of Sarah —

        Here I cannot help but to remember the 1976 lyrics of Hall and Oates: “Sara Smile · Won’t you smile a while for me · Sara · If you feel like leaving you know you can go · But why don’t you stay until tomorrow” — (at Tom and John’s with the naughty stuff)?

  15. Lyn
    10/06/2009 at 2:41 PM

    Maybe the moving of Robert’s body (x2) was from the bedroom (where he was manipulated and then stabbed) to the shower (explaining why authorities thought he was “cleaned” and why no blood soaked towels or sheets were found in the guest bedroom) and then back to the bedroom (where the he was laid on a bed of newly made sheets and so forth). This would also explain why blood was detected in the plumbing drain trap in the back yard (wash the blood down the shower and traces remained in the trap leading to the main sewage line).

    In my opinion, one of the biggest unanswered questions is where did all of the bloody sheets/towels/etc. go and who got rid of them?

    If I was the D.A., my question would be: “Ok Joe and Victor, you said on the 911 call that Joe was holding a towel to Robert’s wounds – where is that blood soaked towel?”

    I think that one of the housemates took a quick trip to a random dumpster or someone else is involved beyond the trio. I have a hard time believing the trio would involve another person who wasn’t in the house and I don’t think they would have time to get that person to come over, pick up the stuff, and then get out of there (plus there would be phone records of calls made, etc.).

    Maybe there was a fourth person involved but that person was already in the house that night (perhaps a “friend” of Joe or Dylan) participating in some activities. Maybe that person then left with all of the incriminating evidence, thus allowing the trio to remain and work out the story and allowing the trio to “honestly” state that they never left the house that evening after Robert’s arrival (and ensuring that no witness would see one of them out dropping things into a dumpster that night).

    • CDinDC
      10/06/2009 at 7:15 PM

      Lyn says: “In my opinion, one of the biggest unanswered questions is where did all of the bloody sheets/towels/etc. go and who got rid of them? ”

      Lyn, I still firmly believe that Robert was stabbed in the shower. I’m sure people are tired of hearing this, but I base this ON the fact that there was no significant amount of towels etc. In addition, the configuration of his stab wounds. Sharp edge up. 10 to 2. This could have been accomplished by stabbing Robert from behind and over his shoulder.

      The “move 2x” revelation isn’t really a revelation at all. I think it’s something all of us have discussed many times without labelling it as such. Robert would have HAD to have been moved 2x, if not more. Personally, I believe the path would have been from kitchen/upstairs bathroom/guest room (depending on pre-assault theories), into Dylan’s room/Joe’s room/family room upstairs (depending on where he was assaulted) into the bathroom to clean off and THEN into the guestroom (where he was finally laid in the bed).

      Remember the guestroom bedding was virtually undisturbed. The bedding appeared as though Robert was laid on the bedding and didn’t move AT ALL after. So, in my opinion, Robert was laid on the bedding once. Therefore, there was no additional wrinkling or indentations. If Robert had been assaulted and/or stabbed on the bed, the bedding most certainly would have revealed physically movement/activity.

      I agree with your random dumpster comment. There are myriad trashcans, dumpsters, in which someone could have dropped a plain ol’ garbage bag which would have blended in with the rest of the garbage.

      • Clio
        10/06/2009 at 7:29 PM

        And, of course, there remains the question of Sarah —

        Here I cannot help but to remember the 1976 lyrics of Hall and Oates: “Sara Smile · Won’t you smile a while for me · Sara · If you feel like leaving you know you can go · But why don’t you stay until tomorrow” — (at Tom and John’s with the naughty stuff)?

  16. Max
    10/06/2009 at 4:05 PM

    As I have mentioned before, Im pretty new on this site and with this horrific murder case. I happened to find the Washington Post article about the murder of Robert Wone when I was reading about the murder case here in Finland which had same aspects to it than this one. Exepct that with Mr Wones muder there seems to be no doubt of the killer/killers and yet they are still free men? This puzzled and appaled me, which made me want to learn more about the case. Then I found this site which amazed me with (mostly 🙂 ) no-nonsense and intellectual indepth analysis about the case.

    The main point, which ponders me the most is that regardless of different explanations for the murder and possible screw ups of the investigation, aren’t the following statements established facts and not disputable?

    1. That there was not hardly at all blood in the room or in the victim.
    2.That there was no signs at all for strugle from Mr Wones part (which is simply impossible if an intruder had attacked him)
    3. That there were several needle puncture marks in body (and as CDinDC has explained me, there are no such procedures for stabbing victims which requiers paramedics to inflict those kind of marks)

    I know that the burden of proof is with the prosecutor but if these are really FACTS, then I cant see how could there be a reasonable doupt that the defedants did not commit this crime?

    Because the only other scenario(that is, if the above 3 statements are undisputable facts) would be that:

    1.a person comes to house and luckily finds an open door.
    2.Then takes a knife and walks to the second floor and then chooses not the first door but the second one, then goes in and stabs Mr Wone with out him defending or screaming.
    3.Then stabs him with the needle about 10 times after which cleans the scene and walks out without leaving no traces or evidence him/her ever been there and all this without waking the other three men in the house

    So again, I know that the prosecutor has to show beyond reasonable doupt that these men did it (or one of them did it anyway and other two knew about it). But if the 3 facts i mentioned are undisputable then it should be without question beyond reasonable doupt

    • Clio
      10/06/2009 at 6:33 PM

      It should be, Max, but prosecutor Glenn and constable Cathy have to make it so. Fingers still crossed!

      Minor semantic observations: the use of the word “devastated” in the defendants’ joint statement seems especially at odds with Joe’s cavalier breeziness in the Crown Vic. In addition, the use of passive voice — “was devastated” and “were involved” — reflects in part both the studied distance of Victor’s 911 call and of Joe’s blather to Folts. Most curious, in the joint statement, only one short sentence is about Robert, and the longer, semi-run-on sentence provides copy-ready CYA for them. Finally, the word “intruder” is explicitly used in a place where the word “person” or “individual” or “man” would do. That word “intruder” still strikes me as artificial legalese (Joe) or marketing (Victor) language.

      • John Grisham
        10/06/2009 at 6:52 PM

        Or a recent activity with a non-consenting Robert ( http://eleanor.rawk-star.com/stupidshit2/Analintruder.jpg )

      • CDinDC
        10/06/2009 at 7:27 PM

        Clio says: “Minor semantic observations”

        Minor? Clio I think your observations on the language used is VERY intriguing and revealing. Choice of words and phrasing very often reveals internal conversation, thoughts, etc. it’s similar to body language theories. Such as when someone is lying….they will very often shake their head in the negative when they are speaking in the affirmative.

        Minor. Not at all.

  17. Max
    10/06/2009 at 4:05 PM

    As I have mentioned before, Im pretty new on this site and with this horrific murder case. I happened to find the Washington Post article about the murder of Robert Wone when I was reading about the murder case here in Finland which had same aspects to it than this one. Exepct that with Mr Wones muder there seems to be no doubt of the killer/killers and yet they are still free men? This puzzled and appaled me, which made me want to learn more about the case. Then I found this site which amazed me with (mostly 🙂 ) no-nonsense and intellectual indepth analysis about the case.

    The main point, which ponders me the most is that regardless of different explanations for the murder and possible screw ups of the investigation, aren’t the following statements established facts and not disputable?

    1. That there was not hardly at all blood in the room or in the victim.
    2.That there was no signs at all for strugle from Mr Wones part (which is simply impossible if an intruder had attacked him)
    3. That there were several needle puncture marks in body (and as CDinDC has explained me, there are no such procedures for stabbing victims which requiers paramedics to inflict those kind of marks)

    I know that the burden of proof is with the prosecutor but if these are really FACTS, then I cant see how could there be a reasonable doupt that the defedants did not commit this crime?

    Because the only other scenario(that is, if the above 3 statements are undisputable facts) would be that:

    1.a person comes to house and luckily finds an open door.
    2.Then takes a knife and walks to the second floor and then chooses not the first door but the second one, then goes in and stabs Mr Wone with out him defending or screaming.
    3.Then stabs him with the needle about 10 times after which cleans the scene and walks out without leaving no traces or evidence him/her ever been there and all this without waking the other three men in the house

    So again, I know that the prosecutor has to show beyond reasonable doupt that these men did it (or one of them did it anyway and other two knew about it). But if the 3 facts i mentioned are undisputable then it should be without question beyond reasonable doupt

    • Clio
      10/06/2009 at 6:33 PM

      It should be, Max, but prosecutor Glenn and constable Cathy have to make it so. Fingers still crossed!

      Minor semantic observations: the use of the word “devastated” in the defendants’ joint statement seems especially at odds with Joe’s cavalier breeziness in the Crown Vic. In addition, the use of passive voice — “was devastated” and “were involved” — reflects in part both the studied distance of Victor’s 911 call and of Joe’s blather to Folts. Most curious, in the joint statement, only one short sentence is about Robert, and the longer, semi-run-on sentence provides copy-ready CYA for them. Finally, the word “intruder” is explicitly used in a place where the word “person” or “individual” or “man” would do. That word “intruder” still strikes me as artificial legalese (Joe) or marketing (Victor) language.

      • John Grisham
        10/06/2009 at 6:52 PM

        Or a recent activity with a non-consenting Robert ( http://eleanor.rawk-star.com/stupidshit2/Analintruder.jpg )

      • CDinDC
        10/06/2009 at 7:27 PM

        Clio says: “Minor semantic observations”

        Minor? Clio I think your observations on the language used is VERY intriguing and revealing. Choice of words and phrasing very often reveals internal conversation, thoughts, etc. it’s similar to body language theories. Such as when someone is lying….they will very often shake their head in the negative when they are speaking in the affirmative.

        Minor. Not at all.

  18. Max
    10/06/2009 at 4:05 PM

    As I have mentioned before, Im pretty new on this site and with this horrific murder case. I happened to find the Washington Post article about the murder of Robert Wone when I was reading about the murder case here in Finland which had same aspects to it than this one. Exepct that with Mr Wones muder there seems to be no doubt of the killer/killers and yet they are still free men? This puzzled and appaled me, which made me want to learn more about the case. Then I found this site which amazed me with (mostly 🙂 ) no-nonsense and intellectual indepth analysis about the case.

    The main point, which ponders me the most is that regardless of different explanations for the murder and possible screw ups of the investigation, aren’t the following statements established facts and not disputable?

    1. That there was not hardly at all blood in the room or in the victim.
    2.That there was no signs at all for strugle from Mr Wones part (which is simply impossible if an intruder had attacked him)
    3. That there were several needle puncture marks in body (and as CDinDC has explained me, there are no such procedures for stabbing victims which requiers paramedics to inflict those kind of marks)

    I know that the burden of proof is with the prosecutor but if these are really FACTS, then I cant see how could there be a reasonable doupt that the defedants did not commit this crime?

    Because the only other scenario(that is, if the above 3 statements are undisputable facts) would be that:

    1.a person comes to house and luckily finds an open door.
    2.Then takes a knife and walks to the second floor and then chooses not the first door but the second one, then goes in and stabs Mr Wone with out him defending or screaming.
    3.Then stabs him with the needle about 10 times after which cleans the scene and walks out without leaving no traces or evidence him/her ever been there and all this without waking the other three men in the house

    So again, I know that the prosecutor has to show beyond reasonable doupt that these men did it (or one of them did it anyway and other two knew about it). But if the 3 facts i mentioned are undisputable then it should be without question beyond reasonable doupt

    • Clio
      10/06/2009 at 6:33 PM

      It should be, Max, but prosecutor Glenn and constable Cathy have to make it so. Fingers still crossed!

      Minor semantic observations: the use of the word “devastated” in the defendants’ joint statement seems especially at odds with Joe’s cavalier breeziness in the Crown Vic. In addition, the use of passive voice — “was devastated” and “were involved” — reflects in part both the studied distance of Victor’s 911 call and of Joe’s blather to Folts. Most curious, in the joint statement, only one short sentence is about Robert, and the longer, semi-run-on sentence provides copy-ready CYA for them. Finally, the word “intruder” is explicitly used in a place where the word “person” or “individual” or “man” would do. That word “intruder” still strikes me as artificial legalese (Joe) or marketing (Victor) language.

      • John Grisham
        10/06/2009 at 6:52 PM

        Or a recent activity with a non-consenting Robert ( http://eleanor.rawk-star.com/stupidshit2/Analintruder.jpg )

      • CDinDC
        10/06/2009 at 7:27 PM

        Clio says: “Minor semantic observations”

        Minor? Clio I think your observations on the language used is VERY intriguing and revealing. Choice of words and phrasing very often reveals internal conversation, thoughts, etc. it’s similar to body language theories. Such as when someone is lying….they will very often shake their head in the negative when they are speaking in the affirmative.

        Minor. Not at all.

  19. Clio
    10/06/2009 at 7:48 PM

    Thanks, CD. The off-putting language used by the defendants themselves — “real killer”, etc., combined with the forensic evidence, will ultimately put the prosecution over the top, despite the grievous errors made by the police.

    Your careful response to Max on the paramedics just shows how weak the defense is when it comes to portraying the EMTs as intruders puncturing Robert’s lifeless body. Needham could have spent that money on so many other things than this ridiculous yarn!

  20. Clio
    10/06/2009 at 7:48 PM

    Thanks, CD. The off-putting language used by the defendants themselves — “real killer”, etc., combined with the forensic evidence, will ultimately put the prosecution over the top, despite the grievous errors made by the police.

    Your careful response to Max on the paramedics just shows how weak the defense is when it comes to portraying the EMTs as intruders puncturing Robert’s lifeless body. Needham could have spent that money on so many other things than this ridiculous yarn!

  21. Clio
    10/06/2009 at 7:48 PM

    Thanks, CD. The off-putting language used by the defendants themselves — “real killer”, etc., combined with the forensic evidence, will ultimately put the prosecution over the top, despite the grievous errors made by the police.

    Your careful response to Max on the paramedics just shows how weak the defense is when it comes to portraying the EMTs as intruders puncturing Robert’s lifeless body. Needham could have spent that money on so many other things than this ridiculous yarn!

  22. CDinDC
    10/07/2009 at 3:55 PM

    John Grisham says: “CD, are you sure? The map posted on this site on August 2, 2009 seems to indicate the seminar was held right next to the Subway they dined at that evening, within a block from Dupont Circle.”

    Hi John,

    Yes, I’m sure. That map has some inaccurate locations on it.

    Judy Tseng pointed that out after reading a reprint of her article from the Model Minority.

    Here’s her post and Craig’s reply:

    Judy
    August 2, 2009 at 6:35 PM
    Also, sites 2 & 3 on the map are wrong. The DC Bar Center is on 12th and K Sts. Otherwise it wouldn’t have made sense for Robert and his colleague to ride the metro afterwards together to Farragut North so he could go back to work.

    Craig
    August 3, 2009 at 3:50 PM
    Judy – As always thanks.

    As far as the map goes, our graphics department is working on the correction.

    • John Grisham
      10/07/2009 at 4:27 PM

      Thanks CD. That now makes more sense.

  23. CDinDC
    10/07/2009 at 3:55 PM

    John Grisham says: “CD, are you sure? The map posted on this site on August 2, 2009 seems to indicate the seminar was held right next to the Subway they dined at that evening, within a block from Dupont Circle.”

    Hi John,

    Yes, I’m sure. That map has some inaccurate locations on it.

    Judy Tseng pointed that out after reading a reprint of her article from the Model Minority.

    Here’s her post and Craig’s reply:

    Judy
    August 2, 2009 at 6:35 PM
    Also, sites 2 & 3 on the map are wrong. The DC Bar Center is on 12th and K Sts. Otherwise it wouldn’t have made sense for Robert and his colleague to ride the metro afterwards together to Farragut North so he could go back to work.

    Craig
    August 3, 2009 at 3:50 PM
    Judy – As always thanks.

    As far as the map goes, our graphics department is working on the correction.

    • John Grisham
      10/07/2009 at 4:27 PM

      Thanks CD. That now makes more sense.

  24. CDinDC
    10/07/2009 at 3:55 PM

    John Grisham says: “CD, are you sure? The map posted on this site on August 2, 2009 seems to indicate the seminar was held right next to the Subway they dined at that evening, within a block from Dupont Circle.”

    Hi John,

    Yes, I’m sure. That map has some inaccurate locations on it.

    Judy Tseng pointed that out after reading a reprint of her article from the Model Minority.

    Here’s her post and Craig’s reply:

    Judy
    August 2, 2009 at 6:35 PM
    Also, sites 2 & 3 on the map are wrong. The DC Bar Center is on 12th and K Sts. Otherwise it wouldn’t have made sense for Robert and his colleague to ride the metro afterwards together to Farragut North so he could go back to work.

    Craig
    August 3, 2009 at 3:50 PM
    Judy – As always thanks.

    As far as the map goes, our graphics department is working on the correction.

    • John Grisham
      10/07/2009 at 4:27 PM

      Thanks CD. That now makes more sense.

Comments are closed.