Bumped

Let’s Take It From the Top…

Last night’s comment from MaNonVa caused quite a stir.  It was an  intimate portrait of the Swann Street housemates including Sara Morgan.  We’re very thankful for the contribution.

It dovetails with other sketches we’ve seen of the defendants but this is up close, personal and thorough. It gives a better understaning of the family.

But the comments on that post were nearing 200 and it was becoming unruly so continue the reaction to this here.

We dont know if MaNonVA will respond to queries but welcome the contribution in any event. 

MaNonVa
July 15, 2009 at 8:28 PM · Edit

Dylan is professional and kind. He is extremely meticulous and seems to exhibit borderline OCD behavior based on his attention to detail in all aspects of his life.  He is very quiet but can deliver a 1-liner joke that will make an entire group breakout in laughter. Dylan is extremely serious and cautious with his words.  He is a very petit male that probably ways no more then 130-140 lbs. He has been described as looking angelic in person based on his blond hair and innocent expression. 

Without divulging too many details for the sake of my own anonymity, I wanted to share a little bit about my experience with the three suspects.  I knew Dylan, Joe, and Victor for a while. I am in no way saying that these men are guilty of the murder of Robert Wone.  What I believe is that by bringing as much information to the table, the truth will surely surface.

Dylan:

Professionally, he is one of the most professional people I have known. His power is exhibited when influencing others through subtle and gentle suggestions. He might come across as subdue and hesitant and meek but his relationship with Joe proved to me that Dylan also held very strong opinions and appeared to have an equal position in Joe’s life.

At least this is the perspective I had of Dylan and Joe’s relationship. Dylan and Joe sometimes reminded me of an old married couple because they could bicker like the best of them. I knew Dylan as a person of many many gifts and hobbies. He was always very kind to me and quiet in his approach.

Joe:

Joe is quite different from Dylan. Like many people have mentioned, Joe is loud, quick on his feet, witty, and opinionated. He is very very smart. When I first met him, I immediately questioned his motives and intentions. He is ambitious, very egocentric, and has little regard for other people’s reputation and emotions unless it serves him to do so. I have witnessed many many of his conflicts with others. Joe can be absolutely charming one moment and a completely irrational self-focused bully the next. I have been intimidated by him during most of my interactions because my gut told me not to trust him with my own concerns. My opinion comes from being a witness to his treatment of other people. When I knew Joe, he struggled to respect professional boundaries as far as friendly or sexual behavior. He can be your best friend and worst enemy depending on how he needs you. He is very protective of Dylan. He has a ton of vision and is gifted verbally. While I never trusted him and feared that his self interests would trump the greater good, he was so showy that it seemed that he cared a lot for his reputation, career, and family so much so that he knew how to protect his interests instead of hurt them.

Victor:

Other then a few social events,I only saw Victor at certain functions. Victor is my favorite of the three. He is kind, compassionate, and a great listener. He is gentle just like Dylan but has a less serious nature about him and seems to be externally aware of other people’s feelings. He seemed to really love Joe. While I hung out with all three of them on multiple occasions, I never witnessed any animosity between Dylan and Victor. On the outside, they appeared to be a very intact family. They laughed a lot, played up their stereotype when telling stories, and seemed to have true intimacy. While I don’t know Victor that well, if I needed someone to talk to or to help with something, Victor would have been the person I called.

The House:

I have been in their house multiple times. It was always immaculate, which doesn’t surprise me based on what I know about Dylan. I have never been in such a modern and “hip” house. They cherished artwork and good cooking and all-around good style. Dylan used the same room where RW was killed to do his work there. The hallways were narrow and the bedrooms small. The largest parts of the house were definitely the living room and kitchen area.

Sara:

I have also met Sara multiple times. Based on my interactions with her, it seemed that she really fit into Joe, Dylan, and Victor’s dynamic and humor including their opinions towards others. She wasn’t a consistent part of my experiences with the other three so I don’t want to elaborate anymore on my opinion about her.

Anyways, I just wanted to shed some light on their personalities since I have read questions about what they are like as people. In my experience with the three of them, Joe definitely seems to be the center of attention but Dylan showed a lot of control in the group. My view of Victor was that he was the caring and supportive role of the three of them. Again, I knew him the least.

As far as who did what, based on RW’s murder, I realize that sometimes we might never fully know a person. Based on my experiences with the three men, I feel like there is definitely some missing pieces that has yet to be discovered. While the affidavit is certainly compelling, it just amazes me that three men with so much talent and potential would throw it all away. It is so hard to believe that Joe could do this type of act even though I didn’t like him as person.

 

  • MaNonVa,

    dare i say you had a fabulous post. i suspect others will sing your praises too for your thoughtfulness and insight (and like me, pepper you with additional/follow-up questions).

    what can you share about dylan’s alleged depression and his rumored drug use? did he look blue to you? any leads or information on the knife set that he kept in the room?

    again, thanks for sharing. stay with us, and continue to comment — even though many, myself included, may challenge some of the rose-tinted observations.

    peace –

     
  • one further thought: you describe dylan professionally, as a professional. what was that profession again? many have suggested that her rumored mental illness cripled her ability to pursue and stick with a profession – one day a foreign service officer, next day a cook, next day a massuer, next day an electrician (hat tip, cd). in what professional capacity did you witness ms. ward being a professional? many thanks again for sharing your view.

    Reply
  • So interesting….MaNonVA.

    What stands out to me dramatically is that Joe “struggled to respect professional boundaries as far as friendly or sexual behavior.”

    I post a while back that imagine Joe to be a “what I want when I want it” kind of guy.

    Do you believe that Joe would cross the line with a straight long-time friend?

     
  • AnnaZed,

    MaNonVA is a casual acquaintance of the trouple going back a few years. I thought CDinDC was clearly asking about MaNonVA’s prior impressions of Joe. Not: “Hmm, I dunno…Joe seems like the kinda guy who would drug, molest and murder a straight college friend.” More like: in a general sense, did he seem like he would push people in a direction they clearly didn’t want to go?

    We’ve all had the experience of receiving unwanted advances we thought we had clearly discouraged. That’s what “crossing the line” usually means to me.

     
  • MaNonVa, would you expand on these comments? “I have witnessed many many of his conflicts with others……………..My opinion comes from being a witness to his treatment of other people.”

    Also, did/does Dylan have a strong allegiance to Joe?

  • Anonymous Friend
    July 16, 2009 at 1:12 AM · Edit

    Please please please keep posting. Thank you so much for your insights and observations. I hope you’ll continue to reflect on your interactions with these individuals and share whatever comes to mind. I specifically would appreciate anything else you can offer re: alleged drug use by any of them; specifics regarding Joe’s tension/conflict with others; what you mean by joe “struggled to respect professional boundaries as far as friendly or sexual behavior;” your impression of why Victor would tolerate Joe’s relationship with Dylan; whether it seems Joe loves Victor; your theory of what happened that evening; ideas for where police should be looking for the missing pieces; whether you knew Michael or his partner; whether you knew Robert … my list could continue. I don’t mean to be greedy. It just renews my faith that there is more to learn and not just rehash when I read people’s post who actually know those involved. Seriously, thank you.

  • MaNonVa
    July 15, 2009 at 9:28 PM · Edit

    I don’t want to go into how I know Dylan based on my own need for privacy. What I can say is that his work was impeccable. While it doesn’t surprise me that he deals with depression based on his demeanor and stress level, he never dropped the ball as far as his professional endeavors. Dylan was a phenomenal worker. If I could guess his Myers-Briggs, I would say that he is an INFJ with heavy emphasis on the I and J. (Note: I = introversion. J = judgment). Dylan never let anyone down, which to me means that he did a good job managing his depression while on the job. Dylan was reserved and professional in all of his interactions that I saw.

    I heard about Dylan’s recreational drug use but never saw it first hand.

    As far as Dylan’s interest to change occupations, I always sensed that he had a level of dissatisfaction in his work because it wasn’t how he envisioned his life. At the same time, he is such a student that I am not surprised about his many occupations. I have met other people like him who are just antsy and curious. I hope this helps.

    Ha — no news on knives though.

  • Thanks, MaNonVa, for giving these memorable mini-portraits of the former residents of 1509 Swann.

    Your snapshots, though, did beg the following questions:

    If Dylan displayed such great judgment, why would he get involved with such a transparent, mercurial operator as Joe Price? How professional would it be for an employee of any organization to be in an intimate relationship with a board member of that same organization? Dylan was hired as a fundraiser at Equality Virginia (EV) because Joe chaired its board of trustees. I trust that Joe recused himself from any board decisions that had to do with Dylan. Yet, however effective that they may have been in starting EV’s Commonwealth dinners, the fact that Dylan was serving as Joe’s “dom” during that time raises serious questions about both their ethics and judgment.

    Dylan stills remains enigmatic. How reserved and demure are patrons of the Crew Club (such as apparently himself)? Was Dylan unusually obsessed with Asian and Asian American men? Did this obsession partially explain his long-term interest in Asian cultures and/or his travel to Thailand after the Wone murder?

    Finally, why was Victor’s salutary compassion not extended to Robert on and after August 2, 2006?

    • Anonymous Friend
      July 16, 2009 at 1:19 AM · Edit

      What’s the Crew Club?

      • Anonymous Friend

        The Crew Club is a private gym (aka as a bath house) designed for sexual hook ups. It is located in DC on 14th street just above Thomas Circle.

        David, co-editor

     

    109 comments for “Bumped

    1. Craig
      07/16/2009 at 10:33 AM

      Thanks again for this MoNonVa. It’s interesting you mention what might be Dylan’s Myers Briggs type: INFJ. I was a non-believer in MBTI but am starting to put more stock in it.

      From the MB site, a description of INFJ traits:
      “Seek meaning and connection in ideas, relationships, and material possessions. Want to understand what motivates people and are insightful about others. Conscientious and committed to their firm values. Develop a clear vision about how best to serve the common good. Organized and decisive in implementing their vision.”

      Wiki has this.

      -Craig, ESTP

    2. CuriousInVa
      07/16/2009 at 11:29 AM

      Interesting information. When I first starting reading here I felt that it was Dylan’s deed and Joe was more likely brought in after the fact (still think the stabbing was done as a coverup b/c RW was mistakenly thought to be dead). I’m now feeling the opposite and think this was Joe’s deal.

      In his great arrogance did he think RW was secretly into him? Did Joe tell Dylan he was sure RW would be into a threesome? When he was rebuffed did that set him off? I had a friend once who always insisted that every straight guy we knew was hot for him. He was also incredibly arrogant.

      • Perplexed
        07/16/2009 at 1:29 PM

        This could be easily clarified by anyone who has had contact with DW at the Crew Club — that would at least provide a description of how DW acted and responded (not getting into TMI details but generally) in those types of situations. If he was one to respect boundaries, etc. – it would be clearer how this whole thing could have unraveled the night of RW’s death…….thank you MaNonVA…..and thanks for being so willing to provide additional insights into the 3 accused – it’s clear this site is not set up to crucify anyone, but to try to find out what really happened to RW…..peace….

    3. CDinDC
      07/16/2009 at 12:45 PM

      I think MaNonVa’s characterization of Dylan shows Dylan to be an extremely shy person.

      Speaking as someone that suffered from extreme shyness throughout my life, I can relate. I would pay rapt attention to all that was going on and interject my thoughts here and there, which would usually come out in the form of a one-liner joke. I felt more comfortable with humor. I would never hold the floor. Usually my more animated partner (at the time) would be holding court and traipsing around garnering all the attention.

      Regarding Dylan’s strength within the relationship, this comes with comfort. In very shy people, shyness will melt away after a certain comfort level is achieved. At that point, a true personality will emerge. Dylan’s shyness probably prevented him from being the truly aggressive person he really wanted to be. Joe coaxed that to emerge, albeit in a unorthodox way.

      Joe, the predator I believe he is, saw Dylan’s vulnerability and used that to his advantage.

      What is Victor in all of this? A co-dependent who allowed his more dominant partner to ruin his life. Pathetic.

    4. CDinDC
      07/16/2009 at 12:59 PM

      MaNonVa says: “It is so hard to believe that Joe could do this type of act even though I didn’t like him as person.”

      Sadly, it happens every day.

      The husband that murders his sleeping children and wife for a new mistress. The mother that drowns her sons. The church wife that shoots her minister husband to death. The handsome man that stalks and murders women up and down the east coast.

      And, yes, maybe even the brilliant attorney that murders his long-time best friend for spurning his long-imagined advances, or the angelic-faced lover that murders the long-time friend of his controlling, attention-seeking lover in a fit of jealousy.

      It happens everyday.

      • Perplexed
        07/16/2009 at 1:33 PM

        I’m going to throw this out there, and I’m sure I’m going to get some heated feedback — has anyone thought that possibly it was JP alone and that DW and VZ helped to clean up once it became apparent what happened…..but then again, JP would have had to have access to DW’s room for the toys obviously used to plant semen and the knife…..hmmmm…..something’s missing….

        • CDinDC
          07/16/2009 at 2:28 PM

          I’ve wondered at times, but I think the nature of the crime would have taken more than one person to carry out.

          And I don’t necessarily think Joe would dirty his hands….he would have someone else do it.

          I think Joe manipulated Dylan into participating in this crime.

        • AnnaZed
          07/16/2009 at 6:18 PM

          I too have thought it likely that Price was the prime mover in this crime, as in the person most likely to have assaulted Robert.

          Curiously, I think that because I think that of the three housemates only he had the motivation; which I identify as years of either frustrated and thwarted feelings towards Robert, or (conversely) years of feeling that Robert was secretly hot for him ~ setting up a delusion in his mind that Robert was coming toSwann St. to consummate some sort of (in Joe’s mind) longstanding understanding of attraction which never existed for Robert at all. I think that Joe was the one to attack Robert because Joe is the one who knew him, the one who Robert thought was his friend and even partly mentor from school. The two of them were “involved” in a way that normal people are involved, but Joe is not normal. No, I don’t mean because he is a homosexual, which is perfectly normal, but because the portrait of him that is emerging is of a person with serious problems with his mental health who is also an alcoholic and a drug abuser. Either of the emotional scenarios that I posit could culminate in an explosive, homicidal rage when Joe finally (finally!) gets Robert alone. This is more so if fueled by long standing alcoholism (I think we can safely call his drinking habits by that highly charged buzz word even if some think that the out of control drinking described only reflects changing attitudes about over-drinking at company functions) and drug abuse.

          Here’s an article about alcohol and murder (sorry, I don’t have a log-in for this site anymore, but it’s a good piece):

          http://psychiatry.jwatch.org/cgi/content/citation/2001/807/5

          The Dept of Justice puts the number of criminals charged with murder while under the influence of alcohol at around %60. I don’t know why alcohol abuse is so frequently ignored when looking at a crime like this. Maybe as watchers ofCSI we want our criminals to be smooth, suave masterminds instead the addled, degraded out of control drunk and otherwise intoxicated people that they most usually are and that i think Joes was on that night.

          I think that Joe assaulted Robert as he prepared to sleep (mouth guard in place). I think that he, and he alone, subdued Robert by attacking him with a hypodermic containing a drug that under some circumstances may seem to enhance sexual pleasure and at higher doses incapacitate (don’t know what that drug would be). I think that he thought that he had killed him once he was finished assaulting him; and that Dylan helped first by helping him kill Robert by stabbing him to make it look like the “intruder” crime that Joe wants everyone to accept as anexplaination from Robert’s death. Dylan continued to help Joe by doing what Joe told him to do to re-dress the scene, the crazy stuff with the exchanged knife, the clean-up, Joe outside in the patio area washing himself down with a hose, Joe putting clothing still partially bloody into the dryer while Dylan makes everything tidy. This all fits the time-line and the motivations of the participants to me.

          Then Victor comes on the scene, or is even woken up by them to do the 911 call. I think Victor genuinely believed them that an intruder did this terrible thing, but I doubt that he believes it now. I think that Dylan and Victor both think that they are in too deep to back-out now.

          • Clio
            07/16/2009 at 7:50 PM

            Very plausible, AnnaZed.
            Nevertheless, I hate to be the skunk at this garden party, but let me be the devil’s (Joe’s) advocate for just once. First, there is no evidence that Joe ever desired Robert, or that Robert ever desired Joe. (Having said that, the Duggan piece’s section on Joe meeting Robert and his parents at William and Mary does display Joe in a creepy, predatory light, given what has happened.) Second, as we all know by now, Joe was the prototypical “bossy bottom” seeking a service top: why would a bottom incapacitate and then assault his imagined top? Third, Dylan’s alleged “type” was Asian and Asian American men, but that fetish or preference was not part of the gossip/complaints regarding Joe. Fourth, drug (and possibly alcohol) use was apparently part of both Joe and Dylan’s lives, allowing the diffident would-be sage and the boorish showboat some common ground. Drugs (as well as the camaraderie of 1509 Swann)probably enabled the publicly prissy and “professional” Dylan to play fellow fallen angel along with (or without him, at the Crew Club) Mr. Price, who may have had less of a difference between his public and private personas than his sidekick. So, Dylan’s role on that evening still appears, to me, to be more than just helping Joe after the assault.

            • CDinDC
              07/16/2009 at 8:41 PM

              Clio says: “, Joe was the prototypical “bossy bottom” seeking a service top: why would a bottom incapacitate and then assault his imagined top.”

              But remember, Joe also had a relationship with Victor that is presumably vanilla.

              There ARE “versatile” gay men, and Joe doesn’t appear to me to be the type of man that would be sexually predictable.

              And who knows what Joe’s fantasies were/are.

              Joe mentioned in his alt.com profile that he was voyueristic. Perhaps he wanted to see Dylan with Robert.

              Plus…..rape is not sex. Rape is control.

              • Bea
                07/16/2009 at 9:18 PM

                Exactly, CD.

                My (complete) speculation is that Joe’s ego, possibly bolstered by drugs/alcohol, led him to come on to Robert, and when rebuked, he got angry – especially if Dylan were there to witness the rejection.

                It’s interesting to see the descriptions of the three men as an overlay to all the theories posited here. It does seem more and more likely that Joe was at the center of the storm. I wish we had more insight (among SO many other topics) about how the Joe-n-Dylan dynamic differed from the Joe-n-Victor dynamic. I have certain friends who bring out the reckless, adventurous side of me (on a small scale), and I wonder if Joe-n-Dylan weren’t combustible in ways that they weren’t individually.

                • 07/16/2009 at 9:47 PM

                  There was less evidence on Robert’s body that he was involved in a physical struggle, and more evidence on his body that he was drugged without being restrained.

                • Themis
                  07/16/2009 at 10:38 PM

                  Folie a deux.

                  As to chemically altered mental state, I tend to think that if a lot of alcohol had been consumed one of the first responders would have noted it. Alcohol just doesn’t metabolize that fast. And the first responders were suspicious from the get go.

            • AnnaZed
              07/17/2009 at 2:33 AM

              Clio, I understand your questions, but as someone else said here; rape is not sex, it has very little to do with sexual tastes and everything to do with violence and power.

              As to Dylan’s role in the scenario that I posited ~ Dylan is in fact the actual killer because unbeknownst to either man Robert was not actually dead when stabbed.

              Obviously, I have no proof of this, but it is the theory of the events that I am putting forward anyway. Maybe Dylan is afraid of Joe, maybe even more so now. it is not uncommon for a person who acts as a dom in the sexual play-acting that is an S&M sex act to actually be subservient to the person that they are acting upon, very common for them to be employees in the sense of being hired. Maybe Dylan, who can’t have contributed much to overhead at Swann St., essentially existed in a sexual servant kind of capacity in some aspect of the relationship which made him not a complete actor in the life of the house. This could translate into his obeying some seriously deranged seeming directives from Joe under the right circumstances. Make no mistake, he gets no pass from me. The complete disregard for Robert that this entails, the demoting of Robert to sexual “thing” status while alive and finally dead thing status to be manipulated and washed and posed is abhorrent, deviant and (of course) criminal.

              • CDinDC
                07/17/2009 at 8:03 AM

                I think any of Joe’s control over Dylan has less to do with their sexual arrangement than with Joe’s personality. He, in my opinion, has a personality disorder. His narcissistic behavior is enough to push any sensitive person over the edge. Couple Joe’s personality with either Victor or Dylan’s personality and you may have one screwed up household.

                I recently read a biography about Picasso. A documented narcissist. He had a son that was suicidal due to his father’s extreme narcissism.

                I think the key to this whole horrid event is Joe and Joe’s “I’ll do what I want when I want” mentality.

                • Clio
                  07/17/2009 at 11:16 AM

                  Yes, everyone was there that night because of Joe, but I think that, along with Joe, Dylan willingly and eagerly participated in (and perhaps even suggested) the assault that, then, led to his chef’s knife being used (probably by himself) for the kill. No one had to coerce or manipulate the quirky shrimp from doing the self-centered whale’s bizarre bidding. That is why they’re still together, sticking to Joe’s story: “two peas in a pod” living in McLean, thanks to the ever-useful Victor and his “poor” Aunt Marcia.

          • Anonymous Friend
            07/18/2009 at 1:33 AM

            I’ve always doubted the blood-in-the-dryer evidence. My washer and dryer would never finish a load (much less one that was covered in blood) in the timeline of that evening. Maybe there’s was super-fast. But I just don’t get how there was time for washing and drying. And the affidavit notably just says trace blood evidence and doesn’t say whose blood. Possible, of course, but I need more to convince me things were washed. Not really responsive to your overall theory, but I couldn’t help but mention this.

            • AnnaZed
              07/18/2009 at 2:59 AM

              I don’t think a load of laundry was done. The evidence of blood in the drain outside would indicate that someone (somehow I don’t think an “intruder” did this) hosed themselves off there. Maybe Joe was wearing boxers or something and he hosed himself off and put them in the dryer. That is not outside of the timeline.

              One of the things that I don’t entirely understand is where the things that are not in evidence went ~ like the actual knife that was used in the crime.

              Also, where did all of Robert’s blood go? Not in the shower or the police would have said that the shower drains had the presence of blood, even after all three housemates themselves showered it would still be there, wouldn’t it?

              • CDinDC
                07/18/2009 at 11:24 AM

                AnnaZ….The Defendant’s Motion for Discovery indicates that “drain traps” and other parts of the house were taken as evidence.

                I know, for a fact, that the patio was specifically mentioned in a legal document, but the mention of traps (plural) says to me that more than just the patio drain was confiscated.

                They ripped the house apart.

            • CDinDC
              07/18/2009 at 11:13 AM

              Agreed. I give no weight to the dryer “evidence”. Unless they can extract Robert’s DNA.

              Besides, as I’ve posted before, Joe and Dylan are in a sexual lifestyle that can, yes, cause you to shed blood. The blood could be their’s.

              Not to mention, there was a female in the house. She may have laundered clothing that….well, without being graphic, may have been soiled due to her cycle.

              • WH
                07/18/2009 at 1:13 PM

                CD, thanks as always for your thoughtful comments. Just couldn’t help a chuckle, as a gay man, at your post above: you casually describe a potentially blood-letting gay S&M sex habit without batting an eye–but writing about a woman’s menstrual cycle is “graphic”! I love it, because I could see myself writing something similar!

                • CDinDC
                  07/18/2009 at 2:11 PM

                  aw shucks! LOL Thanks WH!

            • Perplexed
              07/20/2009 at 8:06 PM

              Anonymous friend said: “I’ve always doubted the blood-in-the-dryer evidence.”

              I agree with this. That’s why I think someone else was involved in coming to get a bag of stuff that couldn’t be “fixed or cleaned.” Some have mentioned Sarah, my gut’s telling me brother, Michael.

    5. Bea
      07/16/2009 at 1:24 PM

      MaNonVa – thank you. My sense is that you were torn with whether or not to post (and how much/what), and it is much appreciated.

      Could you comment on some of these assumptions I have based on what you wrote?

      Joe’s boundary issues: while keenly aware of his “position”, he struggled with hitting on people he knew he shouldn’t, at times went too far in pushing others in a variety of ways.

      Dylan: his intelligence and strengths were “interior” almost as an opposite of Joe’s. He didn’t seek or crave the attention, rather succeeded in things quietly, and his ‘gift’ was in (gently) getting things accomplished.

      I wonder if you were around them enough to comment on my speculation that Joe found a great “supporter” in Victor when he was a younger, still vulnerable associate attorney. Victor is the penultimate “soothing” influence that Joe craved. But after a few years, Joe needed a new conquest of sorts – someone smart, someone a bit more complex and mysterious – and Dylan has that appeal.

      Though Dylan and Victor enjoyed one another, the ‘anchoring leg’ in the threesome was Joe. In other words, both Dylan and Victor’s “in love” component was primarily directed toward Joe.

      I know you don’t want to say whether or not the three (or any of them) could have murdered Robert. I respect that. But in reading your well-constructed narratives of the three, it does seem that any foul play was a likely result of Joe’s needs and more reckless persona. (Of course I’d like a comment on this last paragraph, but don’t expect you to provide it – it’s out of bounds for me to request it).

      Best to you.

    6. Just Another Friend
      07/16/2009 at 3:57 PM

      MaNonVa,
      You’ve done a very good deed and I thank you very much. This site has tremendous (and growing) potential to bring together the complex and interlocking details that led to Robert’s murder, but I fear that sometimes we may veer into caricatures of personalities based on limited information and our own speculation. You have fleshed out these people for us in a new way. In so doing, you’ve done a service to your friend(s) and to all of us who are searching for the truth.

      • CDinDC
        07/16/2009 at 4:35 PM

        Indeed. Nice post, JAFriend.

    7. CDinDC
      07/16/2009 at 9:18 PM

      Based on some of the testimonials from people that know Joe et al personally through work or outside of work, it seems that Joe had a natural affinity for Dylan. Almost like Dylan was Joe’s “favorite.”

      So where did Victor fit it? Joe and Victor built a financial “empire” together. Multiple real estate transactions….a home they lived in together, and other properties, and from what MaNonVa said, a lovely environment within the homes they shared. This took two salaries. Dylan was probably able to contribute only a small amount to this “empire.” So perhaps Joe kept his relationship intact with Victor so his beautiful lifestyle would continue. If he left Victor, he’d have to do this on his own. Yes, he was an attorney that made a healthy salary, but wouldn’t all this be easier and more bountiful with Victor’s additional salary? Dylan wasn’t able to contribute like Victor. So, keep the relationship with Victor intact. Sleep with him every night, but love Dylan. Small sacrifice to make to keep Dylan and himself in a grand lifestyle.

      I have to wonder if Joe is “in love” with Victor, or if he just “loves” him.

    8. CDinDC
      07/16/2009 at 9:58 PM

      MaNonVa says: “He is a very petit male that probably ways no more then 130-140 lbs.”

      It would have been difficult for Dylan to move Robert alone. Robert was equal in size.

      • Nelly
        07/17/2009 at 8:00 PM

        Actually, Robert was a little less in height and weight. But much greater in success and as a human being overall than the sad excuse of life that is Dylan Ward.

    9. CuriousInVa
      07/17/2009 at 1:40 AM

      AnnaZed, I think you completely missed the point about alcohol discussed previously. No one was suggesting that overindulgence might not be alcoholism. What was being said was that in this day and age, drinking at that level at a work function was even more a signifier b/c in past times it might not have been as frowned upon. Nowadays to behave that way in a corporate setting is completely unacceptable so therefore more indicative of alcoholism.

      • AnnaZed
        07/17/2009 at 2:10 AM

        Thanks Curious, I probably did fail to take that all in. I just always find that if one comes right out and says, “so-and-so is an alcoholic” or ” so-and-so drinks like an alcoholic” that people start getting offended, so I just tried to pre-empt that.

        It is astonishing sometimes how distorted the personalities and morals of a heavy abuser of alcohol and drugs can get; how far even from their “real” selves, until over time the distorted perceptions and sometimes simply unconscionable behaviors become the real self. In any case the person is %100 responsible for their actions in my book.

    10. Anactoria
      07/17/2009 at 2:31 AM

      What Joe presumably did to his old friend is monstrous and chilling, but is it really that unusual? When you consider the number of young women who have been raped and murdered by men who they thought were platonic “friends”–(seemingly) ordinary guys whom they trusted enough to be alone with–you feel you’ve read this story many times before (tho of course in a heterosexual context). I think the motive is there: Joe wanted him. This sort of evil or lunacy may be inconceivable to most of us (I’d hope), but, sad to say, it’s a fact of life.

      • CDinDC
        07/17/2009 at 7:55 AM

        Indeed. There have been multiple rousing discussions about this over the course of this website. People saying “I just can’t believe…… .”
        Well, people need to believe it. Murderers/criminals come in all shapes and sizes and all socioeconomic backgounds.

        And every murderer wasn’t a murderer until the cross that line.

      • Nora
        07/20/2009 at 7:35 AM

        Absolutely right. Sadly, it’s not unbelievable at all.

      • Perplexed
        07/20/2009 at 8:09 PM

        And Joe said he was voyuristic(sp?)??

    11. CuriousInVa
      07/17/2009 at 12:46 PM

      I’ve been reading a lot lately about “addict-thinking” as I try to understand a friend’s recent actions. It has been enlightening (and incredibly sad) to learn more about the shifts in cognitive thinking and behavior that occur in someone w/ a drug or alcohol addiction, especially those that begin to manifest themselves even when the person is not under the influence. It seems likely that Joe fits in that group with an extra added dose of narcissism. His boundaries were just nonexistent.

      • AnnaZed
        07/17/2009 at 1:01 PM

        That was more what I was thinking, though I didn’t formulate it right. People who abuse alcohol and drugs over long periods become irrational even when they are not what you or I would call or notice as being excessively inebriated.

      • des
        07/17/2009 at 1:29 PM

        Curious,
        Not to get totally off-subject, but is there a specific book that you are reading about “addict-thinking”?
        It sounds very interesting and might be of help to someone I know who’s significant other is dealing with addiction.
        Thanks.

        • CuriousInVa
          07/17/2009 at 3:34 PM

          “Addiction: Why can’t they just stop?” by J. Hoffmann is one I’d recommend.

          • des
            07/17/2009 at 8:30 PM

            thanks!

    12. TT
      07/17/2009 at 3:43 PM

      Des, a great book on addiction and how it effects an individual, “Addictive Thinking” by Abraham J. Twerski, M.D.

      • des
        07/17/2009 at 8:32 PM

        thanks again!

        • Ex-SwannDude
          07/17/2009 at 9:14 PM

          There is also a great book on addiction that is the fundamental basis for most all modern thought on the subject, “ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS”. It’s available at most bookstores and online.

          • Themis
            07/18/2009 at 1:25 PM

            AA does not work for everyone. Research has born this out. For women, especially, CBT is as or more effective. And, as for addict thinking, it’s useless to generalize unless you know whether someone is dual diagnosis, which is the case with a significant percentage of addicts, regardless of the addiction of choice.

            There is also the issue of when the addiction first manifested. Addiction that begins prior to the early 20’s, and long term addiction later in life, are more likely to result in “rewiring” of the brain that is difficult to overcome.

            Finally, there is a difference between abuse, addiction, and dependence. I won’t go into the details, but the info is out there.

            I say all of this because my mother was an alcoholic much like Nicholas Cage in Leaving Las Vegas. Her abuse, eventual addiction, and ultimate dependence did not start until she was in her mid 30’s. Ultimately, it caused her to be involuntarily committed.

            But her alcoholism was inextricably intertwined with chronic, major depression. She had to be treated for both.

            I learned a lot after assuming legal care of her after her committment. Weekly one on one counseling coupled with the fact that I refused to let her drink while she lived with me is what kept her sober until her untimely death, not AA. AA is great for a large percentage of addicts. It is not the be all and end all of thinking on addiction. And I would be wary of any book that purports to do so.

            • CDinDC
              07/18/2009 at 2:16 PM

              CBT — cognitive behavior therapy.

              I will refrain from spelling out the other CBT.

    13. Ex-Foxer
      07/18/2009 at 3:22 PM

      I posted not long ago saying that a blonde, small-statured man was often in the office with Joe. I often wondered if this was Dylan, and MaNonVa’s comments confirm this.

      Knowing that now, I agree that Dylan is indeed very angelic and innocent-looking in person. He very much resembles a lost little boy just looking for love. His eyes in his mugshot make him look a little “crazy”, but he really exudes this energy of being lost and just wanting to be protected and taken care of… hence the relationship with Joe. He is very unassuming in person, almost invisible I would say.

    14. Ex-Foxer
      07/18/2009 at 6:37 PM

      Here’s what I think happened: I think Joe gave Robert to Dylan as some sort of “gift.” Based on MaNonVa’s comments, it seems like Joe may have been more into Dylan than Victor. He kept Victor around because it was more financially stable, socially acceptable, etc., but he had more of a passion for Dylan. Joe loved Victor, but he was “in love with” Dylan.

      We know that Dylan liked Asian guys, so Joe came up with this idea to offer up his longtime friend Robert, who he knew would be spending the night. So they drug him, have sex with him, but then freak out because they think he either a) died from the drugs and that wasn’t part of the initial plan or b) he became conscious during sex and they knew he would say something the next day.

      So Joe comes up with the plan of murdering him and designs the story about the “intruder.” He and Dylan begin to clean up the scene, and then Victor wakes up, sees that Robert is dead and screams. Joe tells him to go upstairs and call 911 while he and Dylan continue to clean. Victor was in the dark about the whole thing and when the 911 operator asked him to go downstairs he was legitimately scared, because he thought the intruder was still in the house with the knife.

      The question is whether or not Victor ever figured out what really happened and is going to come clean??

      • Bea
        07/18/2009 at 7:49 PM

        This is pretty close to my theory, too, though many see Victor as being more complicit in the clean-up (and some, but far fewer, the actual murder). One question, just because I don’t recall, is what is the origin of the “notion” that Dylan liked Asian men? I know I’ve seen it on here many times, but would like some validation – that it wasn’t just mentioned as a possibility but then someone ran with it. Anyone recall specifics?

        MaNonVa’s impressions of Victor dovetail into the notion that he likely had little to do with the primary crime and is “supporting” the duo’s claim of innocence. Not that he didn’t have “unclean hands” – at the very least, agreeing to lie to police from the very beginning – but my sense is that IF that’s the extent of his guilt, the prosecutors would let him walk if they could a murder charge to stick on Joe and/or Dylan.

        Please, Victor, wake up and smell the bad prison coffee.

        It’s bizarre to me that Joe has such a hold on him – and hard to believe that Victor would do this for Dylan alone, another reason to believe that Joe was guilty as hell in the primary act of murder. Not that Victor would ‘enjoy’ seeing Dylan go to prison, but to go to these lengths (assuming the speculation here isn’t way off base – and it could be), but to lay one’s life on the line is usually reserved for the beloved. Joe. The same logic tells me that Joe’s narcissism and egocentric behavior would have made him sell the “real killer” down the river LONG ago. Taking a room in Auntie M’s house, have to watch his spending, and not be the center of attention for gay causes, at dinner parties, etc., but drive him nuts. Even if he was ‘in love’ with Dylan, but only ‘loved’ Victor, I really don’t think he’d throw everything away if Dylan was the only true killer.

        • Clio
          07/18/2009 at 9:02 PM

          You are right again, Bea. The origins of the idea of Dylan as obsessed with Asian and/or Asian American men are murky. Arthur’s guest post of March 11 stated, “Internet boards carried speculation that the Taiwan-savvy Ward was a ‘rice queen’ with a fetish for Asians.” See also the supporting comments of “vincentchin.”

          So these questions come to mind: Would the Datalounge back-and-forths be where that characterization was backed up with historical examples? If Dylan’s “type” was truly Asian and/or Asian American men, then why would a ‘rice queen’ be in love with a white fattie born in East Texas? Was the “antsy” artiste so mercenary that he would forego “type” for a place to stay? But then again, as CDinDC said, gay men are versatile.

          Ex-Foxer, if Dylan did have a thing for Asian and/or Asian American men, then your scenario is spot on.

          • CDinDC
            07/18/2009 at 11:36 PM

            I’m not so sure the “gift” theory would be spot on, Clio.

            we have to look at the personalities of these individuals. Dylan doesn’t have the personality of someone that would willingly accept a “gift” of this nature. Remember, Dylan has been described by people that knew him as introspective, quiet. As I posted yesterday, Dylan sounds like he’s very shy.

            Personally, I believe Joe was rebuffed by Robert. This made Joe angry. Joe decided to have Robert anyway. He injected Robert enough to subdue him. Possibly took Robert into Dylan’s room. Dylan may have participated due to Joe’s angry instructions. Get this. Do that. Joe and Dylan inject robert multiple times to keep him subdued. Joe decides Robert must be killed to cover up his sexual assault. They attempt to smother him. This doesn’t work, so Joe decides to stab him. They take Robert into the bathroom. Joe instructions Dylan to get the the knife from Dylan’s room (as it was right there). They place Robert in the shower and as they stand behind him they stab him. Victor happens upon the scene. Screams. Joe tells Victor that things got out of control. Joe tells Victor to help them. They take Robert into the guestroom and get blood in various places on the way. They place Robert in the bed and to solidify the intruder story, clean up the other areas because if an intruder stabbed Robert in the guestroom, there wouldn’t be blood anywhere else. Dylan and Joe comply with everything because Joe is angry and when Joe is angry they listen. Victor’s 911 call is staged.

            Of course, this is a general theory. Details consistent with various evidence could be added there and there.

            • Nora
              07/20/2009 at 7:48 AM

              One thing I think is pretty clear – Joe was carrying some kind of torch for Robert. You are spot on about that. Why did Robert arrange this weird sleep over? Mr. Persuasive talked him into it, then had two weeks to plan something fabulous. Poor, trusting Robert walked straight into a trap.

              Will we ever know what kind of crush / obsesession / delusion Joe had been living with all those years? Or what good friend Robert’s last thoughts were in that house?

              It makes the skin crawl.

              • CDinDC
                07/20/2009 at 9:06 AM

                Nora says: “Why did Robert arrange this weird sleep over?”

                It wasn’t weird for Robert to stay over. It was convenient.

                • Nora
                  07/20/2009 at 9:51 AM

                  The idea was not strange (although, it’s not like he was visiting from Seattle). But the circumstances were. Why was Victor not told earlier that someone he hardly knew would be staying in their house? When I lived in a group house in the big city that would’ve been completely out of bounds. I once witnessed a near-beating when a resident was surprised by a guest he didn’t recognize immediately. And why did everyone “go to bed” so quickly after Robert arrived? Wasn’t the main point of his visit social? I think he had to leave early the next morning – when were they supposed to catch up? That’s what’s weird.

                  • CDinDC
                    07/20/2009 at 10:10 AM

                    Nora says: “That’s what’s weird.”

                    Indeed.

                  • DCTim
                    07/20/2009 at 10:27 AM

                    Good point about the “catch up” time, Nora.

                    However, it seems that Victor knew Robert better than that; he just didn’t know he was spending the night that evening. Remember, the trio had thrown a party for him previously, and apparently the three had visited his home in Oakton just days before the murder.

                    • CDinDC
                      07/20/2009 at 10:32 AM

                      Well, the “going to bed by 11pm” seed was planted by the defendants. We need to take that with a grain of salt.

                      Perhaps Robert’s intentions were to stay up late chatting, but his plans may have been preempted by his……….rape and murder.

                    • Anonymous Friend
                      07/20/2009 at 1:39 PM

                      I don’t remember hearing/reading that they had visited Robert in Oakton 3 days prior. Thank you for whatever additional information on this fact you can provide – source, reason for visit, etc.

                      • DCTim
                        07/20/2009 at 1:52 PM

                        I don’t recall exactly where…but I saw it just this past weekend as I was reviewing old posts. I seem to recall it was even Kathy Wone who mentioned it in her statement to police, but I’m not 100% sure.

                        If/when I find it again, I’ll advise where.

                  • Perplexed
                    07/20/2009 at 8:19 PM

                    Nora said: “Why was Victor not told earlier that someone he hardly knew would be staying in their house?” VZ did know RW — he attended RW’s wedding with JP.

                • DCTim
                  07/20/2009 at 9:59 AM

                  Much as I agree with many of your posts here CD, you and I continue to disagree onthis point; I also think that the arranged sleepover had more to do than convenience.

                  From what I read over the weekend, it seems that Wone spent only about 15 minutes at the office meeting the night staff, and then went on to Swann St. It still strikes me as odd that he’d plan a weeknight sleepover without some other inducement. Clearly he didn’t deserve what ultimatley happened to him, but I think it was more than convenience that brought him there.

                  • CDinDC
                    07/20/2009 at 10:09 AM

                    Maybe it was to appease is insistant friend, Joe. Maybe Robert thought “all right already, I’ll stay and catch up.”

                    I would love to see the emails, texts (if there are any) of the conversations they had.

                  • Nora
                    07/20/2009 at 11:13 AM

                    In almost three years no evidence has been offered by anyone that Robert had a secret life. The record seems to show that he was a happily married heterosexual.

                    Robert was very clear with his wife that he was staying the night at the home of three gay men. Such openness does not fit the pattern of people on the DL.

                    My instinct is that the sleepover was a lot more “convenient” for Joe than for Robert. DYOC.

                    • AnnaZed
                      07/20/2009 at 11:59 AM

                      I think Robert was subdued minutes after taking his shower in a planned attack; an attack planned by Joe.

                      It is possible that Robert was mystified by the short conversation in the kitchen and everyone off to bed.

                      A tangent I know, but I am bothered by what happened to the bloody towels and the actual murder weapon. Did one of the guys get in a car and take that stuff somewhere? It seems like if they just went down the street and put it in a dumpster that the police would have found it, ditto if towels or clothes were cleaned with a hose then put in the dryer as the police suggest. Then where did they go?

                      It is possible that I am just being very stupid, but I don’t see how that worked in the time-frame.

                      • CDinDC
                        07/20/2009 at 1:11 PM

                        There were 3 people in the house. If they had a bag of “stuff” that needed to disposed of, one of them could easily have gone into an alley in a 2 or 3 block radius of 1509 Swann and dumped the garbage bag in one of the scores of garbage cans in the vicinity. It would have taken a couple of minutes. The MPD didn’t look in every garbage can in the area, if any.

                        The garbage collection day in that area is historically Tuesday and Friday. It could have sat in someone’s garbage for a couple of days before being picked up by the public works department.

                      • 07/20/2009 at 1:37 PM

                        I think that it is highly unlikely that a household that went to such great pains to clean and remove every drop of blood, plant a couple of unsent phone calls on Robert’s cell phone, etc., would be so sloppy as to dump all of the evidence with their finger prints and DNA all over it in a trash can ANYWHERE in the DC metro area!

                      • Perplexed
                        07/20/2009 at 8:22 PM

                        AnnaZed said: “A tangent I know, but I am bothered by what happened to the bloody towels and the actual murder weapon” I still think brother Michael was called to pick it up by JP. He is apparently always close by the neighborhood…..

                  • Nelly
                    07/20/2009 at 4:20 PM

                    No, he spent more than 15 mins. at work. He left the CLE and his colleague saw him leaving the metro to go to work around 9:15 or 9:30pm. The most recent Wash post article said Robert left his workplace around 10:22pm.

      • Perplexed
        07/20/2009 at 8:15 PM

        Ex-Foxer: Huh, close to my theory, but I think they explained the intruder “story” to VP before VP made the call. I think VP knew it wasn’t an intruder. Remember when they said to have someone hold a towel on RW, and VP said someone is doing that right now. Well, we all know that was not the case by the evidence. VP knew once he was either awoken or happened upon the scene. Add: I think brother Michael was involved in picking up a bag of stuff to dispose of elsewhere.

        • 07/20/2009 at 11:08 PM

          Perplexed, you “still think brother Michael was called to pick it up by JP.”

          The problem is, there would be a record of Joe’s call to his brother. Joe would know better than to make such a call, or to let anyone else in the house use the phone except to eventually call 911.

          That is, unless Michael was already at 1509 Swann that evening. Or unless Sarah took the evidence with her and called Michael from a pay phone to meet up with him somewhere.

          • Perplexed
            07/21/2009 at 11:58 AM

            Good point. We can assume the DCP has access to all call records of anyone relevant — hopefully. Then you’re right, that leaves either someone running it out of the house (maybe to the 16th street house?); knew where Michael was that night; Michael was there; Sarah was there; went to where Sarah was, which was walking distance……

            • 07/21/2009 at 12:24 PM

              I believe the perps rented the place on 16th St. at least a year or two following the murder. However, I believe Joe also owned a condo at 1727 R St. NW #401 at the time of the murder. I wonder if (and to whom) it was rented. Unless it was vacant, or rented to Michael, its probably unlikely Joe would hide all of the evidence at another one of his own addresses.

    15. Clio
      07/18/2009 at 10:50 PM

      For more background on the Wards, Dylan’s kid brother Mac Ward is a creative type in the Northwest.

      According to one of the legal documents, the trouple attended Mac’s graduation (and party?) from St. John’s College in Maryland in 2006. Mac had probably left the region for Pennsylvania by August. Also, his resume indicates study in Italy, which apparently, according to several commentators at this site, was a vacation spot for the residents of 1509 Swann.

      • 07/21/2009 at 8:17 PM

        mac appears to be in to pottery and ceramics. poor conservative republican dianne . . . her children appear to have san francisco values that are not to be discussed around the ladies at the club, or at the hospital, or at the gingrich and palin fundraisers.

    16. WH
      07/20/2009 at 12:58 PM

      If the three had in fact visited Robert in Oakton just a few days earlier, then what is so strange about Robert going to bed soon after his arrival at Swann St without extended visiting. I think Robert’s plan to stay as a convenience is very credible, and if I had just caught up with my friends a few days earlier I would be off to bed early as well. (I am a morning person who would find 10pm intolerably late to be out driving home from a long day at work. I also have to depart evening social events early or I turn into a pumpkin–does anyone out there know if Robert was a “morning person” as well?)

      My main point is that there is nothing unusual in my view about Robert’s plans to stay overnight downtown, nor his apparently early departure for bed, especially if the friends had visited together recently.

      • Nora
        07/20/2009 at 2:00 PM

        Strangeness is hard to judge – what one person considers an odd decision might be perfectly normal to another. Everyone’s different. I personally would have chosen to sleep in my own bed if I got off at around 10 on a work night. I don’t think I’ve ever done otherwise w/out a special “inducement”.

        I missed the note about the trouple visiting Robert’s home a few days earlier. Now I’m puzzled – what was the pressing need to catch up with friends you saw just a few days ago? Unless you were going to get drinks, hang out, etc.? It’s probably just me, I’m not all that outgoing. But it doesn’t seem like the convenient option to me.

        • DCTim
          07/20/2009 at 2:07 PM

          Now I feel even more compelled to re-find that entry…

          It’ll take me a few days though perhaps.

          • Anonymous Friend
            07/20/2009 at 3:26 PM

            I’m very anxious to see it. Perhaps you saw a reference to the three defendants’ trip to Oakton in the days immmediately following Robert’s murder?

            • Nelly
              07/20/2009 at 4:18 PM

              I never heard of a visit a few days PRIOR to Robert’s murder, but the trio did pay a visit to his widow a few days AFTER the murder. From what I recall, they all played dumb and acted like they were commiserating with her.

              • Perplexed
                07/20/2009 at 8:25 PM

                Nelly: I remember that “after” also….and that RW’s wife pressed them to explain to her what happened….

                • Nelly
                  07/20/2009 at 9:33 PM

                  I might have read that in Mrs. Wone’s civil complaint online.

      • ced
        07/20/2009 at 4:22 PM

        I for one don’t find anything strange about staying over or about going straight to bed after arriving (if that’s what happened).

        Robert apparently got up early, exercised with his wife, went to the subway (not in walking distance of his house), rode it into downtown DC, worked a full day, caught a quick dinner with a colleague, attended a class (2 hours?) and went back to his office to meet the night shift. All of this in DC in August, which is like walking around wearing a ten-pound backpack. Riding back out to the suburbs on the subway and getting home from the station (using his own car if he left one or having his wife pick him up, don’t even want to think about how late he’d get home if he relied on a bus or walked) would seem like a pain to me in the evening when train frequencies are lower than at peak hours. So I would be happy to stay at the home an old friend that lived a mile from work.

        The heat and exhaustion factor also jibes with taking a shower and turning in almost immediately (if that’s what happened) instead of staying up to catch up. The friends could easily have been keeping more or less up-to-date with each others’ lives by telephone. Also, both Joe and Robert being busy professionals (and Robert clearly could fit a lot in a day), planning to socialize over breakfast, when everyone would presumably be fresher, seems completely plausible to me.

        • CDinDC
          07/20/2009 at 4:41 PM

          Agree 1000%

          And Robert, being Robert, probably wouldn’t want his wife lingering around a deserted metro stop late at night waiting to pick him up (and vice versa). (Bus probably doesn’t run that late out that far.)

        • Nora
          07/21/2009 at 7:33 AM

          Hmmmm, yeah, after hearing the commute details, it seems a lot more likely that Robert would’ve just wanted to crash. Not so strange at all. My only quibble is that he planned all this two weeks in advance. I probably would’ve set up a ride instead of a sleepover. But I’m not Robert.

    17. CDinDC
      07/20/2009 at 1:49 PM

      John Grisham says: I think that it is highly unlikely that a household that went to such great pains to clean and remove every drop of blood, plant a couple of unsent phone calls on Robert’s cell phone, etc., would be so sloppy as to dump all of the evidence with their finger prints and DNA all over it in a trash can ANYWHERE in the DC metro area!”

      Well, they did murder someone didn’t they?

      If you are stupid enough to commit murder, don’t you think they would be stupid enough to dispose of evidence in a trash can somewhere?

    18. 07/20/2009 at 2:07 PM

      The perps behavior that evening seems to travel along a continuum of initial stupid drug-induced actions (e.g. rape and murder) to eventually sobered-up and meticulously-focused execution of the details of a cover-up (e.g. getting the place immaculately clean, locating for removal other potentially damning evidence such as their stash of drugs, planning fake phone calls on Robert’s cell phone, coming up with the “intruder” story, getting all of their stories and alibis straight, etc.). Disposing of all of the evidence was one of their last details before having Victor call 911. I believe they all were thinking very clearly by then. Certainly clear enough to know that bloody evidence placed in a dumpster or trash can could easily be discovered by its owner, a homeless person, someone salvaging aluminum cans, an animal smelling blood, the trash collector, etc.

      I think its much more likely a fourth person was in the house at the time (most likely Sarah, but it could also have been Michael) who transported it to (most likely) Michael’s place for temporary safe keeping, until it could more carefully be disposed of.

      • AnnaZed
        07/20/2009 at 4:33 PM

        Ok, I thought that I had read everything that there was to read about this crime, but maybe not (or maybe I am not remembering some crucial things), but wouldn’t Sarah and Michael’s actions have been minutely examined by the police that night, where they were alibis etc? I do recall an ominous mention of Michael having keys to Swann St., and Victor and Joe and Dylan not having told Robert’s wife that he had keys in the Affidavit in Support of the Warrant for Dylan Ward’s Arrest. Is that an indicator that the police think creepy Michael is involved? In which case this goes to a whole new world of premeditation.

        • CDinDC
          07/20/2009 at 4:45 PM

          There was always that mysterious dismissal of the breaking in and theft charges. Who KNOWS that that was about.

          • AnnaZed
            07/20/2009 at 5:15 PM

            Yeah, who has thoughts on what that whole bearing and entering debacle was about; especially given that the police said that Michael had the keys. Was it just a ruse to make it look like Swann St. could be broken into, then (what?) they got caught? By whom?

            • CDinDC
              07/20/2009 at 8:27 PM

              I think Joe asked his brother to do it.

        • Craig
          07/20/2009 at 5:16 PM

          Michael’s alibi has him with his parrtner Louis Hinton that evening.

          Apparently after the break-in, those investigators started chasing leads hoping something would develop in the Wone case. Apparently it did not.

          • AnnaZed
            07/20/2009 at 5:20 PM

            Jeez, that’s like being alibied by your mother.

            I think these two events are connected, but I can’t quite wrap my mind around how.

            • Clio
              07/21/2009 at 9:49 PM

              Mr. Hinton, of course, provided that “lachrymose” expression of condolence several days later: was this note more CYA directed by Joe via Michael, or was it thinly-veiled guilt over what had transpired? If it was the second, then at least someone in Joe’s constellation of pawns may have displayed a semblance of humanity.

    19. Robert Spiegel
      07/27/2009 at 7:13 AM

      LOVE
      I am not sure that Joe was currently “in love” with either Victor or Dylan. Joe may have been in love with Victor at one time, but that probably faded a long time ago. In any event, I believe that Victor had always been more in love with Joe than the other way round. My guess is that Joe may have been infatuated with Dylan at the start but not in love with the Dylan that Joe controlled in their sadomasaochistic relationship. I think the key is Joe’s unrequited love for Robert combined with Dylan’s infatuation with Asian men.

      RICE QUEEN
      FYI: In order for one to qualify as a “Rice Queen,” one does not have to be exclusively attracted to Asian men; primarily is more than sufficient.

      Indeed one who fetishizes Asian men may never have had sex with an Asian man until he does so. It is sort of like one’s not being a murderer until one kills another (hint, hint).

      In addition to my being an ethnologist and an immigration lawyer, I have been characterized — not inaccurately — as an RQ. Though all but one of my boyfriends has been Asian, the one of longest standing was not so. In additon, I have dated so-called Caucasian, Black and Latino men.

      Furthermore, even one’s greatest attractions may go unsatisfied at any point in time or forever. I was attracted to Asian men at 7; “came out” as Gay at 13; had my first date with the man who would become my first Asian boyfriend at the age of 32!

      Sometimes, people’s frustrated desires lead them to do wild and crazy things. Fortunately, that has not been my case; but my experience is by no means universal.

      MICHAEL PRICE
      Michael is a drug addict and petty thief. Like most addicts he was pretty bad at the latter. Similarly, most criminals are stupid which is lucky for the rest of us else they would not be caught so often as is the case. Unfortunately, criminal stupidity is not sufficient for the DC MPD. They require criminals to confess in order to compensate for forensic ignorance and detection incompetence.

      Michael could have been charged with breaking & entering as well as burglary among other offenses; he wasn’t. Reason is that Michael and his partner were offered a deal in exchange for information
      about whatever they might or might not have known about events surrounding Wone murder.

      It would appear that neither Michael nor Hinton know anything that would lead to a conviction of Joseph, Ward, Zaborsky, Sarah or others.

      Even were Joseph Price not “control freak,” he is well known to be, Joseph would never trust his
      “ne’er do well” brother Michael with something so important as the “cover up” of a murder.

      While Michael Price may have been tolerated and housed elsewhere in exchange for supplying the Swann singers with drugs, Michael was not generally welcome in Joseph’s life.

      ROBERT REST
      Notwithstanding that I would never work for a major law firm such as Covington and Burling or Arent Fox, I have many classmates & friends who have chosen to do so. Such lawyers have to bill 20,000 hours annually which requires them to work late at night on a not infrequent basis.

      For example: 1) my dad worked for small but high powered firm. This required him to work through nights in Manhattan, NY while our family resided in Queens, NY; 2) my best friend from law school works for a mid-size firm. While his family lives in Westchester, NY, he rents an apartment in Manhattan where he sleeps over 3 nights a week.

      Given the presence of a night shift as well as the nature of the work at Radio Free Asia, General Counsel Robert Wone could have anticipated working late on a regular basis.

      In view of these job requirements would Robert have desired, intended or planned to stay over at someplace like the Swann Street playhouse or anyplace other than a hotel on a regular basis? I rather doubt it.

      The fact is that Wone could have returned home without much difficulty. This is the part of the story which causes me the most consternation. I do not mean to imply anything about what his sexuality may or may not have been.

      On the one hand (so to speak), the fact that Robert may have appeared to be a happily married hetero does not really tell us anything. Most closeted people are perceived to be well adjusted.

      On the other hand, even people on the “down low” have sexual partners. Otherwise, they would not qualify so. Furthermore, Gay Asian men are a small (no offense) part of the population.

      Had Robert been other than 100%s Straight on the Kinsey scale and acted on any homosexual desires,
      it is highly unlikely that he would have long gone (no offense) noticed in the Gay community in general and among Rice Queens in particular.

    20. Robert Spiegel
      07/27/2009 at 7:18 AM

      Correction: I misidentified Hinton who was the romantic partner to Michael with Phelps Collins who was Michael’s “partner in crime.” Sorry.

    21. Perplexed
      07/27/2009 at 12:21 PM

      As reported previously. I am a hetero – live the same distance from DC as RW and have on many occasion stayed in DC with my gay friends when I have to work past 10 PM. That is late for me, and I am usually very tired after a long day commuting in the morning and working in DC all day. Perhaps, it is more applicable to take a hetero’s take on this aspect – especially as it seems to jive with the same movements RW made. I have great difficulty understanding why people have difficulty understanding this – especially since I have many times made the same exact decision.

      • CDinDC
        07/27/2009 at 12:38 PM

        Exactly, Perplexed.

        I just don’t get all the “Iiiiiii wouldn’t stay” mentality on this board.

        What Robert would do and someone else would do are two totally different things.

        Personally, I would have trekked my arse home. But I’m not Robert and what I would do has nothing to do with Robert’s actions at all.

    22. Clio
      07/27/2009 at 2:27 PM

      Well, there are so many reasons to think that Robert’s decision to stay at the Swann was purely a courtesy call on an old friend. I hate to use a crude slang term for the most obvious of these reasons, but here it goes. Cockblock #1: Robert schedules his stop two weeks in advance. Cockblock #2: Robert tells Kathy about the stop in advance; Kathy packs Robert’s overnight bag. Cockblock #3: Robert is going to see an old college friend whom he has known for fifteen years and who is in a partnered relationship. Cockblock #4: Others probably will be in the house that night, and Robert knows this. Now, unfortunately, for Joe, these aforementioned reasons may have been turn-ons, not turn-offs. Victor, the biggest cockblock for Joe, may have arrived too late.

      • 07/27/2009 at 4:01 PM

        And in spite of Robert planning well in advance to spend the night to “catch up” a bit and see their new digs, the Three Little Pigs would like us to believe no one really cared to stay up and talk with Robert, much less show him around their new house.

        • des
          07/27/2009 at 4:42 PM

          I have often wondered about that exact point.
          Maybe it’s been discussed already on this blog so I appologize if it’s old news…
          If Robert was given a date rape drug in a drink once he arrived at the house. Then from what I’ve read online, he’d be feeling a bit euphoric after about 15 minutes or so and then sleepy. That would then account for him not staying up late to catch up. He was very tired all-of-a-sudden. Then right up to either shower or not, but certainly to get ready for bed, putting in the mouth guard thing.
          So the timing makes total sense to me now. Then the other drug was injected into Robert to further and totally incapacitate him and then he was attacked.
          This was really premeditated beyond a shadow of a doubt.

          • 07/27/2009 at 4:50 PM

            According to the affidavit, “Mr. Wone, Price, and Ward shared a glass of water in the kitchen, and they all retired for the night.” Dylan also volunteered during questioning, “And we – you know, refilled Joe’s water and took Robert upstairs, showed him the bed.”

            With these reference’s to Robert’s glasses of water during their interrogation, the perps seemed to go out of their way to draw unnecessary attention to a presumably inconsequential detail, apparently to establish another specific fact they believed would one day prove useful in their defense. In this instance, it’s as if the perps were pleading, “Please, please investigators; check the water glasses in the kitchen sink and in the guest bedroom for any traces of drugs. See!!! You didn’t find any traces!!!” And indeed, the authorities did not find any, because the oh-so-clever perps saw to it that those original glasses containing drug-laced water were removed from their house and replaced with untarnished glasses.

            • Perplexed
              07/27/2009 at 4:53 PM

              Or they ran the dishwasher right away……they had enough time……

              • 07/27/2009 at 5:00 PM

                Quite a utilities bill for that evening …. washer & dryer, dishwasher, electrostimulator …..

                • Perplexed
                  07/27/2009 at 10:15 PM

                  I don’t buy the washer and dryer – maybe the electrostimulator is battery operated!

          • Robert
            08/04/2009 at 8:45 AM

            DES
            I agree with you and others who believe
            that planned was the “date rape” including
            the dosing of Wone’s water with drug like
            Gmbh, followed by administation of
            paralytic like ketamine.

            But I do not believe that Robert’s death
            was planned. I think that happened as a
            result of Price and Ward misperceiving
            that either: 1) Wone was alive when he
            was dead; or 2) Wone was dead when he
            was alive. Then more trouble ensued.

            If Wone was alive enough to remember
            about his being drugged and raped, then
            Price and Ward might have killed him
            through stabbing to cover up the rape.

            This notwithstanding that it may be better
            to be charged with rape then convicted of
            murder. People do strange things when
            they are in a state of drug euphoria.

            If Wone was dead enough not to remember
            about his being drugged and raped, then
            Price and Ward might have killed him
            through stabbing to cover up Rx.

            In the later case two things would be true:
            1) the intruder theory would be implausibly
            plausible; 2) blood loss would have been so
            minimal as to limit extensive clean up.

    23. Robert
      08/03/2009 at 4:58 AM

      DES
      I agree with you about normal progression of date
      rape drug, that would explain why Wone would
      ultimately had to terminate cocktail (sorry):
      conversation. But as GRISHAM points out, it
      fails to explain why Price and Ward did not
      attempt to make more out of moment.

      But of course they did try to make more out of the
      moment, but not in the way Robert may have
      expected or for which he was prepared.

      Thus, Price and/or Ward prepared Robert in their
      own way — didn’t they. I agree with those who say that Wone was dosed with date rape Rx.

      Where I have a question is to how far in advance
      this rape was planned. Majority of bloggers seem
      to agree that there was much premediation in this.
      I cannot say that they are wrong. I can only say
      that date rape frequently occurs after prior rebuff.

      In any case, I believe that ketamine came later and
      stabbing took place when culprits mistook live
      Wone for dead or dead Wone for live. In other
      words: I am not sure that I agree with those who
      think that all three stages were premeditated.

      Just as I agree with those who say not to make too
      much of heterosexual man sleeping over in homO
      of his homsexual friends, I disagree with those
      who say no way would Robert continue his
      “relationship as usual”with Joseph Rebuff.

      However, I do think that even liberal, charitable
      Robert would have had difficulty in dealing with
      open and notorious S&Mers like Ward or Price.
      I believe that had Robert had advance knowledge
      of the nature of Joseph and Dylan’s relationship,
      he would have thought thrice about sleep over.

    24. AnnaZed
      08/04/2009 at 11:45 AM

      Ummm … sorry, I can’t parse this in any way so that it makes sense:

      “If Wone was dead enough not to remember
      about his being drugged and raped…”

      Wanna re-phrase?

    25. CDinDC
      08/04/2009 at 1:02 PM

      That’s like being a little bit pregnant.

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